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Thread: 2019 CanadianGP: Race

  1. #511
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    Is it safe to presume that if the roles were reversed and it was Hamilton who would have been given a 5 sec penalty people here would still be crying/throwing tantrum for the gross injustice of his penalty?
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Give it a rest you have made a fool of yourself in this thread with your Merc love.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
    Is it safe to presume that if the roles were reversed and it was Hamilton who would have been given a 5 sec penalty people here would still be crying/throwing tantrum for the gross injustice of his penalty?
    Many commentators, including former drivers, have said the penalty was wrong.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrari312T4 View Post
    Funny how AS didn't take the Monaco incident between Ricciardo and Hamilton as an example.
    Because the whole stewards system is corrupt and biased towards Merc and especially Lewis. It's even more clear as the Ham/Ric incident in Monaco 2016 was on a similar narrow circuit without big run-offs. You can clearly see that Lewis squeezed Ricciardo into the barriers which meant Ricciardo had to back off to the right. But that was somehow OK. Then last year at Hockenheim when Lewis cut on to the grass after already being commited to the pit entry was a clear case of rejoining the track in an unsafe manner. But that was also somehow OK...

    I guess the only thing that Ferrari can get out of the appeal is the removal of Seb's penalty points. Also, if they can show, with the telemtry as evidence, that he never accelerated while not having full control then it will paint the stewards as idiots who don't understand racing. Which will be pretty funny as Emenuele Pirro is a five-time Le Mans winner. Pirro is by the way a notorius Ferrari hater who still carries a grudge that he never was given the chance to drive a Ferrari in any major championhsip or race. The other three stewards are basicly desk rats.

  5. #515
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    So here are my conclusions / impressions...

    Nothing really changed at Ferrari: as usual they ruined Leclerc race by keeping him too much on old rubber and Seb is doing what he usually does lately: mistakes that cost him the win. I don't even want to number them, he just made so many already that it has become something of a routine. I really do like him a lot, but unfortunately he will never be a champion again, at least not with Ferrari. Even if somehow Ferrari make a dominant car in the near future, Leclerc will beat him fair and square. There are 2 simple reasons why Leclerc didn't trash him already: Ferrari is treating him like a damn pet and he's not yet a good qualifier.

    Now back to Canada, let's just imagine that Ferrari had the brains and did what was necessary: pitted Leclerc when the time was right and when Seb made that mistake Leclerc could have been right behind Lewis. Lewis braked hard to avoid contact with Seb and Leclerc just sneaked past him... And we would have finished 1-2 and had the win in the bag, no matter what those moron stewards had in their worm brains. And maybe... but a big *MAYBE* the penalty would have been a bit more justified since Lewis would have lost the place to Leclerc because of Vettel mistake... but no... they... Ferrari were really busy trying to ruin Leclerc race that cost us the win in the end.

    Arrivabene was good. Really good. The best team leader we had since Jean Todt. But unfortunately he made 1 big mistake: supported Kimi instead of Seb when it really mattered. I get it that Kimi never won in Germany and Monza and it was his last chance to win those and I know he really wanted those wins... but at what cost ? He ruined our best chance to get those 2 titles and completely wrecked Seb's mental state... what a shame how it all went...

    I just wonder... if Sergio Marchionne was still around... would all this crap ever happened... or if Ferrari ended up taking all the crap from stewards / FIA.

  6. #516
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    The Montreal F1 stewards ruled that Vettel had rejoined the track in an unsafe manner following his error at the first chicane with 22 laps to go and forced Lewis Hamilton off the circuit.


    The five-second penalty imposed for the incident meant Vettel lost what would have been his and Ferrari's first win of the 2019 F1 season to Hamilton.

    Vettel was adamant he had done nothing wrong, and said he had been powerless in the situation because his car was out of control after running over the grass.

    But while it is clear from on board footage that Vettel was battling to control his car as he bounced off the grass onto the circuit again, it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on Vettel's actions at the point he had effectively recovered from the incident.

    The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

    The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

    Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

    But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.

    The movement to straighten the wheel, which put the Ferrari into the path of Hamilton's Mercedes, is believed to be key to the unanimous decision by the stewards to punish Vettel.

    The stewards also used an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international television feed, showing Vettel moving his head and looking in the mirrors to see Hamilton was during the moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right.

    On board footage of the Vettel incident also shows his head turning towards the mirrors in the moment when he is drifting out - suggesting he knew where Hamilton was.

    Had Vettel kept his car tight to the left once he had regained control, then there was likely enough room to have allowed Hamilton through on the right - in which case the matter would almost certainly not have been investigated.

    The fact that telemetry data showed Hamilton had to brake to avoid the collision with Vettel indicated how the Mercedes driver was caught out by his rival's actions
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    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    Ferrari had the fastest car all weekend, which is why Lewis couldn't win the race without external help.
    No they weren't... at least not in the last stint when Lewis closed in to Seb. Lewis was definitely faster... but being faster doesn't guarantee you the pass. Ferrari had the straight line advantage thus making it impossible for Lewis to overtake.

    So in race trim Merc > Ferrari but again, it won't guarantee the win. If only we could qualify in front of the Mercs, even with a faster race trim Merc, we would occasionally win like we did in Canada. Of course, that also implies to have competent pit wall, but that's another story.

  8. #518
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    Anyway, it looks like the pace/handling/tyre wear has improved although Leclerc could not match the speed of SV and LH. Or was this just track related?
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
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    The Montreal F1 stewards ruled that Vettel had rejoined the track in an unsafe manner following his error at the first chicane with 22 laps to go and forced Lewis Hamilton off the circuit.


    The five-second penalty imposed for the incident meant Vettel lost what would have been his and Ferrari's first win of the 2019 F1 season to Hamilton.

    Vettel was adamant he had done nothing wrong, and said he had been powerless in the situation because his car was out of control after running over the grass.

    But while it is clear from on board footage that Vettel was battling to control his car as he bounced off the grass onto the circuit again, it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on Vettel's actions at the point he had effectively recovered from the incident.

    The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

    The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

    Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

    But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.

    The movement to straighten the wheel, which put the Ferrari into the path of Hamilton's Mercedes, is believed to be key to the unanimous decision by the stewards to punish Vettel.

    The stewards also used an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international television feed, showing Vettel moving his head and looking in the mirrors to see Hamilton was during the moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right.

    On board footage of the Vettel incident also shows his head turning towards the mirrors in the moment when he is drifting out - suggesting he knew where Hamilton was.

    Had Vettel kept his car tight to the left once he had regained control, then there was likely enough room to have allowed Hamilton through on the right - in which case the matter would almost certainly not have been investigated.

    The fact that telemetry data showed Hamilton had to brake to avoid the collision with Vettel indicated how the Mercedes driver was caught out by his rival's actions
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    They can explain all they want. What's left is a disgrace.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Penalty is still a joke, but the sad truth is it all came from another Vettel mistake and has also taken away the pitwalls ability to ruin Leclerc's race.
    Martin Brundle thinks otherwise, he said Ferrari's front and rear disconnected and that put Vettel on the grass and nothing he could have done about that. Why it happened on only 1 lap, ask Brundle, he said Vettel is not at fault.

    The back of the Ferrari would not stick into Turn Four and that's bad news for his pace. He didn't do anything wrong but the back of the car just wouldn't live with the front.

  11. #521
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    And a third one to add to the collection along with Monaco 2016 and Hockenheim 2018.

    Lewis cuts through the grass in Mexico 2016. Lewis is the second Merc just infront of Max. No penatly. Nothing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-nMx-gnTU

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    No they weren't... at least not in the last stint when Lewis closed in to Seb. Lewis was definitely faster... but being faster doesn't guarantee you the pass. Ferrari had the straight line advantage thus making it impossible for Lewis to overtake.

    So in race trim Merc > Ferrari but again, it won't guarantee the win. If only we could qualify in front of the Mercs, even with a faster race trim Merc, we would occasionally win like we did in Canada. Of course, that also implies to have competent pit wall, but that's another story.
    ?

    It was never impossible for Lewis to overtake, especially if he had the fastest car. He could have done it elsewhere, didn't have to be on the straight necessarily. I've seen overtakes in places like Hungary and even Monte Carlo.

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    So here are my conclusions / impressions...

    Nothing really changed at Ferrari: as usual they ruined Leclerc race by keeping him too much on old rubber and Seb is doing what he usually does lately: mistakes that cost him the win. I don't even want to number them, he just made so many already that it has become something of a routine. I really do like him a lot, but unfortunately he will never be a champion again, at least not with Ferrari. Even if somehow Ferrari make a dominant car in the near future, Leclerc will beat him fair and square. There are 2 simple reasons why Leclerc didn't trash him already: Ferrari is treating him like a damn pet and he's not yet a good qualifier.

    Now back to Canada, let's just imagine that Ferrari had the brains and did what was necessary: pitted Leclerc when the time was right and when Seb made that mistake Leclerc could have been right behind Lewis. Lewis braked hard to avoid contact with Seb and Leclerc just sneaked past him... And we would have finished 1-2 and had the win in the bag, no matter what those moron stewards had in their worm brains. And maybe... but a big *MAYBE* the penalty would have been a bit more justified since Lewis would have lost the place to Leclerc because of Vettel mistake... but no... they... Ferrari were really busy trying to ruin Leclerc race that cost us the win in the end.

    Arrivabene was good. Really good. The best team leader we had since Jean Todt. But unfortunately he made 1 big mistake: supported Kimi instead of Seb when it really mattered. I get it that Kimi never won in Germany and Monza and it was his last chance to win those and I know he really wanted those wins... but at what cost ? He ruined our best chance to get those 2 titles and completely wrecked Seb's mental state... what a shame how it all went...

    I just wonder... if Sergio Marchionne was still around... would all this crap ever happened... or if Ferrari ended up taking all the crap from stewards / FIA.
    I tend to agree most of your points, even with vettel's mistakes to an extent. But saying Lec would have or could have or will thrash vettel is baseless. Ok its your opinion, which I don't want to put it wrong. But mentioning Vettel would never be a champion with Ferrari is not a meaningful statement. You can't predict the future not we don't have any crystal ball.

    Vettel joined Ferrari in 2015.
    Ferrari 2015 car, was not competitive in terms with Mercs but Vettel won 4 races. As 2015 car aero wise it's strong, with weak engine
    Ferrari 2016 car, which lacked everything. winless season.
    Ferrari 2017 car, which was competitive with strong engine but with reliability issues & In season development lost the battle.
    Ferrari 2018 car, this is the year where car was very strong in all departments with Mercs. This is the season where Vettel being tested interms of battle with Ham. Reminder, bottas was playing rear-gunner act to ham. Kimi too picked up his pace couple times in quali & race, Ferrari gave both of it's drivers same preferential treatment. Germany GP mistake, yes he committed it. Need to check consequences, before that incident when he was on different strategy compared to Kimi, Ferrari didn't push any team order. He was held back a lot. Where Ham was given free space over his team mate while passing him. As ham was fastest compared to Bottas during that race. mistake is a mistake. From there on our strategy errors, combined with mistakes we lost ground over mercs during summer. But after summer break, Belgium GP vettel did overtook Ham on the straight, there were couple of races where he overtook ham. Isn't those references to battles?

    Tell me clearly during 2014 - till date, when was ham tested to extreme extent? remember when he went on to the grass & crashed into Rosberg?
    Any battle with Mad max, ham used to back off. where as vettel used to take on him. It's not like saying 'I gave him free gift of win' after the race.

    Remember even with strongest car, ham lost few races. Why?

    Yes vettel did mistakes, but that is hard racing. when those are pulled off, you applaud them. But when it doesn't then we call as incompetent driver/not a champion driver.
    Champions are made of wheel - wheel/hard racing battles, not just sitting back behind another car & wait or Just drive with strongest car of the grid.

    To me vettel is a strong racer, Ham is Strong Driver. Neither of them are champions yet like Shcumi, Senna, Mika etc...
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  14. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
    Anyway, it looks like the pace/handling/tyre wear has improved although Leclerc could not match the speed of SV and LH. Or was this just track related?
    Track related. Car characteristics too..!! Low DF & drag.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  15. #525
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    Daniel Ricciardo: I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  16. #526
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    Any body remember Mexico 2016 Start? https://youtu.be/gqhX-ZzPhzo

    Hamilton make exactly the same as Vettel, but nothing of penalty for Hamilton.
    hgfdhgdf

  17. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by reaver View Post
    Any body remember Mexico 2016 Start? https://youtu.be/gqhX-ZzPhzo

    Hamilton make exactly the same as Vettel, but nothing of penalty for Hamilton.
    It's Hamilton & mercs they won't get it.

    LUFIA….
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  18. #528
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    Binotto apologized to Leclerc about the team not informing him about Seb's penalty:

    Binotto: "In the heat of the moment we simply forgot to inform him. That was a mistake of the team."

    Leclerc was not upset: "It wouldn't have changed anything if I'd known about the penalty."
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  19. #529
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    Corriere dello Sport

    "Praise for Vettel for his revolt against the system. In his anger, he turns the celebration into a protest."


    Corriere Della Sera

    "Vettel has been robbed. He wins, but the triumph is only an optical illusion. This defeat hurts Maranello very much. The team must not only work on their car, but also need to show off their political weight"

    #CanadianGP
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  20. #530
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    . @Charles_Leclerc getting informed about Vettel's 5s penalty after the race + his statement after the race

    Charles: "He still won right?"

    No he will be P2

    Charles: "Oh ****. ****. Very big shame for the penalty. He deserved to win."
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  21. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by 512 TR View Post
    And a third one to add to the collection along with Monaco 2016 and Hockenheim 2018.

    Lewis cuts through the grass in Mexico 2016. Lewis is the second Merc just infront of Max. No penatly. Nothing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-nMx-gnTU
    unfortunately verstappen/redbull and ham/mercedes will always get away with it ... and there's more then one example of this...

  22. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
    Is it safe to presume that if the roles were reversed and it was Hamilton who would have been given a 5 sec penalty people here would still be crying/throwing tantrum for the gross injustice of his penalty?
    Personally I would say it was a terrible penalty either way, but I doubt the majority would here and I would be branded a Lewis fan
    Forza Ferrari

  23. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    Binotto apologized to Leclerc about the team not informing him about Seb's penalty:

    Binotto: "In the heat of the moment we simply forgot to inform him. That was a mistake of the team."

    Leclerc was not upset: "It wouldn't have changed anything if I'd known about the penalty."
    We need to replace the pitwall guys for Leclerc, they forgot to tell him? come off it. I would say they never told him in case he beat Seb also...
    Forza Ferrari

  24. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    We need to replace the pitwall guys for Leclerc, they forgot to tell him? come off it. I would say they never told him in case he beat Seb also...
    yeah agree. That's why I've said remove lec race engineer & hire new one or reshuffle.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  25. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Personally I would say it was a terrible penalty either way, but I doubt the majority would here and I would be branded a Lewis fan
    ofcourse u are ….
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  26. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Everyone else seemed to manage the dirty air just fine. Seb was not the only driver to experience it.
    Hmm, I remember Lewis making mistakes a few times following Seb into the hairpin in this very same race...

  27. #537
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    Shame Ferrari 'forgot' to tell Charles that Seb got a 5 sec penalty.

    Good way of ruining the teamspirit and pushing Charles into other teams...
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

  28. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelMar View Post
    Hmm, I remember Lewis making mistakes a few times following Seb into the hairpin in this very same race...
    locking a wheel is really not the same
    Forza Ferrari

  29. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    locking a wheel is really not the same
    ham fan
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

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    So Seb forced Ham off the track eh MAFIA.

    If he had done that then why HAM was still racing behind him?
    If he'd gone off the track he would have been into the wall and thus not being able to race any more.
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

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