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Thread: Who is the greatest of all time?

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    Who is the greatest of all time?

    Last edited by vcs316; 24th July 2019 at 07:22.
    #KeepFightingMichael | #CiaoJules

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    Maybe incorrect thread title, should be who is greatest in F1 on points table. Having said that, combining all factors like talent, guts, results, attitude etc, I'd still say MS is the greatest hands down
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

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    From 1st First F-1 race to how many years the driver races F-1 ; then retires should be a main determining factor also. Catching up to another drivers top records takes time. I always believed that Senna's pole record was done in the shortest time . If he didn't tragically die so soon , who knows how many more podiums, wins etc. he could have finished with. Lewis has a few more years to go for sure before he retires. Putting the Senna story aside for now, if Lewis reaches the same years time as Michael in F-1 and continues as he's now winning, the title will be his for sure . Yeah but... should not count, not against Michael or Lewis , the result figures are what should count.

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    Very cool graphic! Thanks for sharing!


    Disappointed Since 2010

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    1. Schumacher
    2. Fangio
    3. Senna
    4. Prost
    5. Clark
    6. Lauda
    7. Alonso
    8. Ascari
    9. Hammy (winning titles against Bottas in a dominant car with some helping hands from above lmao, #NicoRosbergWDC2016)
    10. Stewart

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    All those great drivers are retired from F-1. I rate Senna #1 all time best for the time he drove until his tragic death. Your #9 name is still driving so he can't be counted in or out as the greatest yet. He for sure has at least 5 to 7 more seasons driving left . With 80 wins 86 poles and 5 WDCs so far, he's looking strong to be the #1 all timer . Along with all that driver success, being a forever Ferrari fan, it's just not good at all hearing from so many F-1 fans that Merc is the greatest team and gives their drivers the greatest cars of all time. It's not the driver, it's all the Merc greatest car, with the greatest team making the calls. WCC means far more than WDC winners. Drivers come and go. The team is where the fans heart and soul should always be. Charles in his Ferrari look like they can get something done this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    All those great drivers are retired from F-1. I rate Senna #1 all time best for the time he drove until his tragic death. Your #9 name is still driving so he can't be counted in or out as the greatest yet. He for sure has at least 5 to 7 more seasons driving left . With 80 wins 86 poles and 5 WDCs so far, he's looking strong to be the #1 all timer . Along with all that driver success, being a forever Ferrari fan, it's just not good at all hearing from so many F-1 fans that Merc is the greatest team and gives their drivers the greatest cars of all time. It's not the driver, it's all the Merc greatest car, with the greatest team making the calls. WCC means far more than WDC winners. Drivers come and go. The team is where the fans heart and soul should always be. Charles in his Ferrari look like they can get something done this season.
    The two objections I will always use against Hammy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_F...ship_standings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_F...ship_standings

    For this to happen during the prime of his career is rather pathetic.

    "But Rosberg beat Michae..." yes, when the latter was an old driver in his 40's, who had been out for three years, had a troublesome neck and struggling to stay motivated in an uncompetitive car that chewed tyres and broke down all the time. As Monaco 2012 proved, even in his 40's had the Mercedes car been like it would've been later, Michael would've been fighting hard for a title even those years. It's unreasonable to expect a driver to be as good in his 40's as he was while 25-35.

    No-one would seriously believe that you could've put a driver as sensitive as Hamilton in the 1997 Ferrari and expect a title challenge. Let alone, salvaging third in the championship with Bridgestones in 2005. The guy cries on the radio the moment he's in third place, let alone lower than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    1. Schumacher
    2. Fangio
    3. Senna
    4. Prost
    5. Clark
    6. Lauda
    7. Alonso
    8. Ascari
    9. Hammy (winning titles against Bottas in a dominant car with some helping hands from above lmao, #NicoRosbergWDC2016)
    10. Stewart
    Haha, Hamilton is like a modern Heavyweight boxing champion, winning in the weakest era of the sport with such weak competition, those titles don't have near as much value as the likes of Schumacher, Senna, Lauda etc. They were global legends even in their prime and everyone recognised this.

    And as you say, Hamilton was actually beaten for the Championship by Rosberg!

    So glad the current era of drivers is coming to an end, and new talent is replacing them. From 2008 has probably been one of the worst and boring era's of F1, and that includes most of the drivers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    Haha, Hamilton is like a modern Heavyweight boxing champion, winning in the weakest era of the sport with such weak competition, those titles don't have near as much value as the likes of Schumacher, Senna, Lauda etc. They were global legends even in their prime and everyone recognised this.

    And as you say, Hamilton was actually beaten for the Championship by Rosberg!

    So glad the current era of drivers is coming to an end, and new talent is replacing them. From 2008 has probably been one of the worst and boring era's of F1, and that includes most of the drivers.
    That is a little bit exaggerated. The cars are weaker, but Hamilton has had much more competition in his active years then Schumacher. Vettel, Alonso and now Max are better then Montoya, Kimi, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Rubens or Irvine.

    I rate the titles till about 2009 more impressive then the titles after. Cars were much more demanding. Especially around the 80's. Although in the 30-70's it was much more dangerous.

    I'd say Hamilton can hold his candle with pride. I rate him about 5th or 6th of all time. But he is not as good as many people think.

    Best of the current drivers.
    1) Hamilton
    2) Max
    3) Vettel
    4) Leclerc/Kimi
    5) Ricciardo/Bottas

    Hate or love Max or Lewis, but they are clearly the best 2 drivers on the grid.

    Great video btw.

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    Häkkinen worse opposition than Vettel? Good one. Those are rather identical drivers, ultra-fast but sensitive.

    Also, Leclerc and Kimi equal? In 2019? After Kimi being ripped consistently beaten by first Alonso and then Vettel for five years without really being close. Seriously?

    To add to what JPZ said, back in the day, cars needed to be taken care of and often expired. Now Hammy can go full seasons sometimes without a single mechanical DNF. Prost lost both 1982 and 1983 due to his car being too unreliable. Such title losses aren't a thing nowadays.

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    You can dislike Hamilton all you want, but ‘Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016’ is not worth putting him down. Reliability cost him 2016, not Rosberg. Don’t get me wrong, Rosberg did all he could and did deserve to win title but he didn’t exactly beat Hamilton
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

    "Giornata fantastica !!"- Andrea Stella, European GP 2012


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    You can dislike Hamilton all you want, but ‘Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016’ is not worth putting him down. Reliability cost him 2016, not Rosberg. Don’t get me wrong, Rosberg did all he could and did deserve to win title but he didn’t exactly beat Hamilton
    Um, he did?

    Also, Hamilton lost that title through a couple of horrific starts. Only had himself to blame. He had an engine failure in Malaysia, but the season was 20-21 races long and he only had one driver to beat, and failed in doing so. Rosberg was also on cruise control colleting P2's at the end of the season because it would be enough and he held on doing so.

    Basically, Hammy's had all his main rivals disarmed for six years and also being politically aided by the FIA whenever he's been under threat, seen by the tons of dodgy things that befell us in 2017 and 2018. Like banning the airbox cooling icebox? That was purely political manipulation and it's evident it hurt especially qualifying. The first few years of that when the Mercedes relied completely on the engine before they poured gazillions into the chassis development, the engine development was basically frozen! No driver, let alone athlete has ever gotten such a free ride compared to what he did.
    Last edited by Tifoso Svedese; 24th July 2019 at 13:25.

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    1 DNF from lead of the race to 0 DNFs from Rosberg. I know where Hamilton lost that title
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

    "Giornata fantastica !!"- Andrea Stella, European GP 2012


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Häkkinen worse opposition than Vettel? Good one. Those are rather identical drivers, ultra-fast but sensitive.

    Also, Leclerc and Kimi equal? In 2019? After Kimi being ripped consistently beaten by first Alonso and then Vettel for five years without really being close. Seriously?

    To add to what JPZ said, back in the day, cars needed to be taken care of and often expired. Now Hammy can go full seasons sometimes without a single mechanical DNF. Prost lost both 1982 and 1983 due to his car being too unreliable. Such title losses aren't a thing nowadays.
    Well, Hakkinen by himself is better then Vettel in my eyes. But in combination to the competition drivers had, it was not that much better for Schumacher after 93.

    Also, I rate Leclerc highly but Kimi was a champion and if we look at current performance I shouldn't put Vettel 3rd either. I just think both are better then they are driving now, but not as good as the others. Leclerc has a lot to proof before I really rate him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    1 DNF from lead of the race to 0 DNFs from Rosberg. I know where Hamilton lost that title
    ^this....could not agree more....nico won by luck on behalf of hamilton's misfortune that year due to engine blowout in Malaysia....
    ...the new SF90 in the MATTE RED, to me it looks amazing. Let's hope it's gonna be as FAST as it looks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Um, he did?

    Also, Hamilton lost that title through a couple of horrific starts. Only had himself to blame. He had an engine failure in Malaysia, but the season was 20-21 races long and he only had one driver to beat, and failed in doing so. Rosberg was also on cruise control colleting P2's at the end of the season because it would be enough and he held on doing so.

    Basically, Hammy's had all his main rivals disarmed for six years and also being politically aided by the FIA whenever he's been under threat, seen by the tons of dodgy things that befell us in 2017 and 2018. Like banning the airbox cooling icebox? That was purely political manipulation and it's evident it hurt especially qualifying. The first few years of that when the Mercedes relied completely on the engine before they poured gazillions into the chassis development, the engine development was basically frozen! No driver, let alone athlete has ever gotten such a free ride compared to what he did.

    The horrific starst could have been caused by the sensitive and hard to operate clutch system. Rosberg suffered the same problems. Hamilton was partly to blame for the bad starts. There were more races that were affected by engine or car reliability. China, Spa, Baku(Although he completely messed up qualify.) Sochi, Monaco (although he did win).

    Hamilton has had it easy, but after 2017 Ferrari became a real treat and could arguably seen as an equal car. Especially in 2018. Vettel made far to many mistakes, something he has done regularly in 2010 and to some extend in 2012.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    That is a little bit exaggerated. The cars are weaker, but Hamilton has had much more competition in his active years then Schumacher. Vettel, Alonso and now Max are better then Montoya, Kimi, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Rubens or Irvine.

    I rate the titles till about 2009 more impressive then the titles after. Cars were much more demanding. Especially around the 80's. Although in the 30-70's it was much more dangerous.

    I'd say Hamilton can hold his candle with pride. I rate him about 5th or 6th of all time. But he is not as good as many people think.

    Best of the current drivers.
    1) Hamilton
    2) Max
    3) Vettel
    4) Leclerc/Kimi
    5) Ricciardo/Bottas

    Hate or love Max or Lewis, but they are clearly the best 2 drivers on the grid.

    Great video btw.
    You have got be joking here.

    And that's not even mentioning Schumacher consistently winning in inferior cars. He took the title to the last race in both 1997 and 1998 and won 3 races in 1996 in a car which arguably wasn't even top 3. And then there were all his wins at Benetton, especially against the Williams.

    Senna, Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Montoya, Raikkonen in his prime, Alonso. He raced against all of them. Most of them in superior or at least similar level cars.

    And you rate Leclerc behind Verstappen and Vettel....?
    Last edited by JPZ; 24th July 2019 at 19:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Um, he did?

    Also, Hamilton lost that title through a couple of horrific starts. Only had himself to blame. He had an engine failure in Malaysia, but the season was 20-21 races long and he only had one driver to beat, and failed in doing so. Rosberg was also on cruise control colleting P2's at the end of the season because it would be enough and he held on doing so.

    Basically, Hammy's had all his main rivals disarmed for six years and also being politically aided by the FIA whenever he's been under threat, seen by the tons of dodgy things that befell us in 2017 and 2018. Like banning the airbox cooling icebox? That was purely political manipulation and it's evident it hurt especially qualifying. The first few years of that when the Mercedes relied completely on the engine before they poured gazillions into the chassis development, the engine development was basically frozen! No driver, let alone athlete has ever gotten such a free ride compared to what he did.
    Well said, and the best of all time is an impossible task given the changing nature of F1 over the years, each era had its own 'best' driver but not necessarily the one that won the championship. The early F1 drivers were true heroes from a danger point of view, but there are so many who have become legends in their time, and many myths surround who was the greatest. But it isn't Hamilton in my book, he's just had the best car for the longest time and the most luck ever.

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    If We take from history of F1, I don’t know much about them at least till Senna.
    My standings would be
    1) MS
    2) Senna/Alonso
    3) Mika

    I don’t rate Vettel & Ham in the same league of above. Reason is obvious.

    In the current grid my standings would be irrespective of Car
    1) Max/Leclerc
    2) Ham
    3) Vettel
    4) Norris/kimi
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    You have got be joking here.

    And that's not even mentioning Schumacher consistently winning in inferior cars. He took the title to the last race in both 1997 and 1998 and won 3 races in 1996 in a car which arguably wasn't even top 3. And then there were all his wins at Renault, especially against the Williams.

    Senna, Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Montoya, Raikkonen in his prime, Alonso. He raced against all of them. Most of them in superior or at least similar level cars.

    And you rate Leclerc behind Verstappen and Vettel....?
    Yeah, Schumacher is one of the all time greats and didn't like him winning, but I respected him. But most of his wins were against midfield drivers. Senna and Prost And Mansell were just 3 years and they were at the end of their career. At Schumachers prime he only had Hakkinen as a real good opponent. Alonso and Kimi were never opponents when it mattered for the title. Between 2000-2004+ 2006 Ferrari was the best car. Although Renault probably was as good in 2006. During that time he had no real opponents as good as him in equal cars.

    Hamilton had to race against Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Kubica and Kimi and with equalish cars between 2007 and 2019. (2014-2016 it was no contest and Hamilton was just beating Rosberg with ease with a lucky title for Nico.)


    Yes, Verstappen is easily ahead of Leclerc. Was thinking of putting Vettel 2nd considering how good he did durign 2009-2013, but Max has consistently shown he can have Vettel since 2016. Leclerc is good, and probably better then Vettel, but he has to beat Vettel couple more times before I think he is better then Vettel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    If We take from history of F1, I don’t know much about them at least till Senna.
    My standings would be
    1) MS
    2) Senna/Alonso
    3) Mika

    I don’t rate Vettel & Ham in the same league of above. Reason is obvious.

    In the current grid my standings would be irrespective of Car
    1) Max/Leclerc
    2) Ham
    3) Vettel
    4) Norris/kimi

    But Hamilton did match Alonso on points and beat him many times. Would have been champion if Mclaren were allowed to win the title for WDC.(Yes, I do believe Mclaren never really was allowed to win the title after spygate.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    But Hamilton did match Alonso on points and beat him many times. Would have been champion if Mclaren were allowed to win the title for WDC.(Yes, I do believe Mclaren never really was allowed to win the title after spygate.)
    The point “ Ham beat Alonso many times” continues for long time. But still both are locked on same points at the end of the season even with favouritism to Ham from McLaren during 2nd part of the season.
    If u look at such equations, kimi did beat these two in 2007 then. Then why you aren’t considering kimi in the same of level of Ham then? No it doesn’t work out that way.

    Ham in avg car, didn’t have the same performance level of Alonso or MS.
    Yes he did deliver great races or poles but most of the times he’s pretty lucky. I would say like 30% of wins were down to his luck and bad luck/mistake from leading car.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    That is a little bit exaggerated. The cars are weaker, but Hamilton has had much more competition in his active years then Schumacher. Vettel, Alonso and now Max are better then Montoya, Kimi, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Rubens or Irvine.
    Michael went against Senna and Alonso also....not sure how you can really say Max is better than Montoya or Mika though both were very very fast drivers and would probably beat Max easily. You can also see Michael went up against a much bigger spread of talent than Lewis ever will.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    Yeah, Schumacher is one of the all time greats and didn't like him winning, but I respected him. But most of his wins were against midfield drivers. Senna and Prost And Mansell were just 3 years and they were at the end of their career. At Schumachers prime he only had Hakkinen as a real good opponent. Alonso and Kimi were never opponents when it mattered for the title. Between 2000-2004+ 2006 Ferrari was the best car. Although Renault probably was as good in 2006. During that time he had no real opponents as good as him in equal cars.
    HAHAHA you are another one of those trolls ain't you Alonso and Kimi were never opponents to MS? did you miss 2003 and 2006? Ferrari was not the best car from 2000 to 2006 another complete lie, but you probably know this.

    edit: hahaha yes you are a previously banned troll who comes back to troll again...guess what the end result will be
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Michael went against Senna and Alonso also....not sure how you can really say Max is better than Montoya or Mika though both were very very fast drivers and would probably beat Max easily. You can also see Michael went up against a much bigger spread of talent than Lewis ever will.
    I was a fan of Montoya, but he was fast and incredible but he missed the total package. His 2003 season was incredible, but he had a couple of races where he wend missing. Mika was more complete then Montoya, but missed the ultimate speed.
    Michael wend up against a bigger spread of talent, but Hamilton wend up against better talent in better cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    I was a fan of Montoya, but he was fast and incredible but he missed the total package. His 2003 season was incredible, but he had a couple of races where he wend missing. Mika was more complete then Montoya, but missed the ultimate speed.
    Michael wend up against a bigger spread of talent, but Hamilton wend up against better talent in better cars.
    Nobody has had a car to challenge Mercedes, troll.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    HAHAHA you are another one of those trolls ain't you Alonso and Kimi were never opponents to MS? did you miss 2003 and 2006? Ferrari was not the best car from 2000 to 2006 another complete lie, but you probably know this.

    edit: hahaha yes you are a previously banned troll who comes back to troll again...guess what the end result will be
    You are quick to call me troll, but point out to me where I troll. You couldnt do it the last time. Dont be so sensitive and allow other opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    You are quick to call me troll, but point out to me where I troll. You couldnt do it the last time. Dont be so sensitive and allow other opinions.
    2nd accounts are not allowed, you were banned for a reason, back to PF1 troll.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real View Post
    Best of the current drivers.
    1) Hamilton
    2) Max
    3) Vettel
    4) Leclerc/Kimi
    5) Ricciardo/Bottas
    Verstappen certainly didn't look better than Leclerc in Silverstone. He did look vastly superior to Vettel, however.

    I bet either Leclerc or Verstappen would give Hamilton a real run for his money in the sister Mercedes.


    Disappointed Since 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    2nd accounts are not allowed, you were banned for a reason, back to PF1 troll.
    I see a lot worse posts on here, that are simple absurd, that are allowed without comment. Eg: someone is seriously saying that Charles is now 2nd best driver in F1 and better then Lewis, seriously.... being a fan is great but not when it impairs judgement. Charles might indeed be a future great but I’d prefer to make judgement when he has at the very least won his first GP....

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