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Thread: Just let them race......

  1. #1
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    Just let them race......

    Have we now got into a terrible position with our drivers and now both feel hard done too? Would have been easier to just let them race but now they are doing pre-race deals and off course when it goes wrong it leaves ill will on both sides. Has it gone too far to be repaired or can the team get them to work together and realise not everytime can you get the best strategy call?

    I can kind of understand, Seb has had it pretty easy at Ferrari no real challenge and Kimi would roll over anytime he did look like a challenge so Seb is used to be no1 priority everything is for him, Charles has arrived and is probably doing better than many expected and he is not a Kimi and is hungry for success and as such is not going to be a no2 to Seb, where do Ferrari go with this?

    Are we going down a horrible route similar to Lewis v Nico, Seb v Webber etc etc
    Forza Ferrari

  2. #2
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    Completely agree Greig. Binotto made a mess of it, and tbh Seb didn't help with this "Ferrari is bigger then any individual". Yes, until you are that individual, then it becomes personal and I'm afraid this is becoming personal.

    They should have done RB. You know you have two WC fast drivers, what do you do? You tell them to race and race hard, but cleanly because if not you are going to impose heavy team orders. RB proved this can work with Ricciardo and Max. They also proved it can work with Seb and Ricciardo, but Binotto doesn't seem to be a fan of this. He wants to be Ross Brawn, get 1-2 for a team and tell guys "good job".

    That might work with Barichello and Schumi, but NOT with Seb and Leclerc.

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    I know it's just a small part of the problem, but I don't like the modern qualifying format. Trying to get a tow from other cars, you give me a tow on this lap, I'll pay you back later, etc. Just creates confusion and conflicts.

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    I go back to Luca's words, Two Roosters can not stay in one Hen-house, and Charles is the new Rooster
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    I know it's just a small part of the problem, but I don't like the modern qualifying format. Trying to get a tow from other cars, you give me a tow on this lap, I'll pay you back later, etc. Just creates confusion and conflicts.
    Yup.. agree with you.
    Rather than the above, tell them race each other but not an extent where you both take out each other.
    This pre-agreement & post doesn’t work out in a top team with two top drivers who are looking for a win.
    It’s not like Ham-Bottas.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  6. #6
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    Ferrari also got over confident (cocky) and got bit in the ****, I think it was mentioned on TV, secure the win before trying to decide who should win.
    Last edited by evo_spook; 30th September 2019 at 12:02.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Have we now got into a terrible position with our drivers and now both feel hard done too? Would have been easier to just let them race but now they are doing pre-race deals and off course when it goes wrong it leaves ill will on both sides. Has it gone too far to be repaired or can the team get them to work together and realise not everytime can you get the best strategy call?

    I can kind of understand, Seb has had it pretty easy at Ferrari no real challenge and Kimi would roll over anytime he did look like a challenge so Seb is used to be no1 priority everything is for him, Charles has arrived and is probably doing better than many expected and he is not a Kimi and is hungry for success and as such is not going to be a no2 to Seb, where do Ferrari go with this?

    Are we going down a horrible route similar to Lewis v Nico, Seb v Webber etc etc
    I will never get tired to say this, but issues like this stem from upper team management.
    All I am saying is that when you have Mattia saying that he needs to clarify things further during meetings, or , simply just after one week a repetition of what happened in Singapore (or should I say escalation?) , team really needs to take things into their own hands.

    No driver is over the team. Drivers really don't need to agree with what the pitwall demands. They just need to do as instructed.

    IMHO, it's not about "leaving them race", it's about handing it to them if they cannot understand that they race for the Scuderia.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    I will never get tired to say this, but issues like this stem from upper team management.
    All I am saying is that when you have Mattia saying that he needs to clarify things further during meetings, or , simply just after one week a repetition of what happened in Singapore (or should I say escalation?) , team really needs to take things into their own hands.

    No driver is over the team. Drivers really don't need to agree with what the pitwall demands. They just need to do as instructed.

    IMHO, it's not about "leaving them race", it's about handing it to them if they cannot understand that they race for the Scuderia
    .
    Sorry but drivers are not robots, and I completely disagree with you. Top drivers are champions, they want to win. They want to win for their team, but mostly for them selves. To have drivers following orders to a T, you have to have 1 and 2 driver, not two WC drivers.

    For this, we need someone like Bottas and someone like Hamilton who will firmly put him in his place and be faster race in race out. With Seb and Leclerc its not the case. Leclerc is young, he wants to be champion. He wants to crush records. For Seb, he wants to win like Schumi did, but Leclerc is standing in his way. There is NO way to manage this two except "race, but race cleanly".

  9. #9
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    Yes......let them race.

    RussianGP 2019, everything went good until Seb's MGU-K failure and handed Hamilton or Mercedes the 1-2 win.

    Leclerc needs to stop moaning.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Yes......let them race.

    RussianGP 2019, everything went good until Seb's MGU-K failure and handed Hamilton or Mercedes the 1-2 win.

    Leclerc needs to stop moaning.
    And Vettel needs to keep on his agreement. If he agreed for Leclerc to give him a perfect tow and not defend into T1, just for him to say he will not give position back as agreed, then yea, let them race because thats what you gonna get. Leclerc nor Vettel will EVER agree to such stupid pre orchestrated strats before the race.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkchild View Post
    And Vettel needs to keep on his agreement. If he agreed for Leclerc to give him a perfect tow and not defend into T1, just for him to say he will not give position back as agreed, then yea, let them race because thats what you gonna get. Leclerc nor Vettel will EVER agree to such stupid pre orchestrated strats before the race.
    The pit wall "gave" the position back after both Ferrari pit stops.

    Mercedes took advantage of the VSC or SC during Seb's MGU-K failure.....lucky for them....unlucky for us.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkchild View Post
    Sorry but drivers are not robots, and I completely disagree with you. Top drivers are champions, they want to win. They want to win for their team, but mostly for them selves. To have drivers following orders to a T, you have to have 1 and 2 driver, not two WC drivers.

    For this, we need someone like Bottas and someone like Hamilton who will firmly put him in his place and be faster race in race out. With Seb and Leclerc its not the case. Leclerc is young, he wants to be champion. He wants to crush records. For Seb, he wants to win like Schumi did, but Leclerc is standing in his way. There is NO way to manage this two except "race, but race cleanly".
    That is actually the point.
    We need an #1/2 strategy just like we had with Michael and just like Mercedes has with Lewis and Bottas, and the examples can go on, and on and on.
    Also, while drivers have ambitions and strong egos, at the end of the day , they are employees for the team they pay their hefty contracts and they have to abide by strategy, and rules. They are not their own persons while they race,not by a long shot.
    It is not called discipline for no reason.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    The pit wall "gave" the position back after both Ferrari pit stops.
    That happened after Vettel did not stick to the prearranged strategy.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    That happened after Vettel did not stick to the prearranged strategy.
    yep, Leclerc could not close the gap to Seb....things change as well as the pit wall and Seb making the right call.

    On lap 20 thru 24 or 25 Seb had 4.4sec lead over Charles. Seb had a mega start.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    That is actually the point.
    We need an #1/2 strategy just like we had with Michael and just like Mercedes has with Lewis and Bottas, and the examples can go on, and on and on.
    Also, while drivers have ambitions and strong egos, at the end of the day , they are employees for the team they pay their hefty contracts and they have to abide by strategy, and rules. They are not their own persons while they race,not by a long shot.
    It is not called discipline for no reason.
    Who will be relegated to #2 driver role? Both are top class. Whoever gets inferior treatment will leave the team and that will be disastrous. Ferrari got the best driving pair, with a capable car from race 1, WCC is guaranteed with this pair. Driver's ambitions, their proven track record has what earned them those hefty contracts in the first place and they will look to maximize their results at all times.

    Seb wants to win, Charles wants to win. And you can't say to either of them to not win. That will not work.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    yep, Leclerc could not close the gap to Seb....things change as well as the pit wall and Seb making the right call.

    On lap 20 thru 24 or 25 Seb had 4.4sec lead over Charles. Seb had a mega start.
    Again, in Sochi, its incredibly hard to stay behind someone and do it repetedly unless you have big car advantage. Sainz said they had 1.7s deficit to Bottas, but if they had 0.5 less, Bottas would not be able to overtake him (and it took him looong).

    Basically, drivers where losing 0.5s in last two corners compared to front guys. They cooked their tires and couldn't follow. This is not to say that Seb wasn't faster, but Leclerc did follow him till 9th lap when he was told "swap will happen later".

    So for me its pretty clear. One driver starts on pole, other on 2nd row of the grid. Both drivers agreed for pole setter to slipstream guy starting from 3rd, without trying to break a tow or taking inside line and defending hard. After this is done, as team radios confirm, they where to swap.

    Here comes the interesting part...Seb didn't want to swap. Too little time to Ham, so he pushed. But by lap 9 there was 3.1s to Ham and 1.6s to Leclerc, and they could have swapped but he said "He should catch em".

    Vettel had NO intention to give place back. Even if he lost it in pits, he proved his point. He got great race speed, he will NOT yield and he will play naughty as well. Thats how this ended, obv with Seb DNFing in the end.

    For anyone thinking Suzuka or rest of the races will be better if you are team player...just

  17. #17
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    Ferrari don't need to designate a 1-2 driver, IMO that ended after Schumi era.

    As we've seen with Massa and Kimi, they both got the team backing when they were in the hunt for WDC. Until that situation comes, they are free to race.

    That's how it should be. Just let the drivers race. We are not in any championship hunt right now anyway, dont need to arrange the outcome.

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    I agree with a lot of what is posted here. I’m already tired of the favors and trying to make everyone happy. I want to see the better Ferrari driver win at each track, whether that’s Seb or Charles.

    Yes, no driver is bigger than Ferrari, but anybody here who has raced competitively will tell you that when you get in that kart or car, the only thing you care about when your hands are on that wheel is winning, so I don’t blame Seb or Charles for any “naughty” behavior. Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser.


    Disappointed Since 2010

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    The pit wall "gave" the position back after both Ferrari pit stops.
    Yeah, just watched race again, so that happened, team kept Seb out when tires were gone and Charles could drive 2 sec faster per lap.
    I really do not care who wins, Seb or Charles, so i do not mind,.... just really bad luck we had, bad Sunday.

  20. #20
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    Always when I see: Grosjean radio, so I know that now comes some crying again...I hope that want happen to Charles, he can stop with that and focus in racing instead

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    Always when I see: Grosjean radio, so I know that now comes some crying again...I hope that want happen to Charles, he can stop with that and focus in racing instead
    At least Leclerc is ruthless and skilled unlike Grosjean. Anyway, I don't think we need a #1 and #2 strategy when we are not fighting for title. We can use that time to determine who's better instead in a 1vs1 wheel to wheel battle if need be.

  22. #22
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    In order to get the WCC, you need a united front and strategy, especially when you have strong opposition.

    Having an opponent in your own team will not give you a WCC unless your opposition is weak.

    And as you soon will realize, for 2020 Ferrari sets as #1 target the WCC.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  23. #23
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    No pit stops when VSC, they should make that as a rule.

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    Good idea then Lewis will be not so lucky.Ferrari have a big headache if they issue firm team orders.The solution let them race each other hard regardless of the outcome boom or bust .This is the only way one driver then will be the alpha male.There are no butter positions currently available at scuderia Ferrari but watch this space for a potential vacancy.

  25. #25
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    If you let them race, the Lewis will be smiling third and that's not putting him under more pressure so I believe Ferrari needs to make Charles no.1 driver since Seb is to old to adapt to a new car.
    Charles is the future of Ferrari and with him we have a future.
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    No pit stops when VSC, they should make that as a rule.
    Yup... I see from 2017 that most of the time it’s Ferrari who suffered with this VSC or SC.
    2017/2018 Baku, I remember China 2017/18 I think so, n other one where Lewis benefited n over took vettel on different tyres, now Russia GP.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance " : - Michael Schumacher

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    Yeah, just watched race again, so that happened, team kept Seb out when tires were gone and Charles could drive 2 sec faster per lap.
    I really do not care who wins, Seb or Charles, so i do not mind,.... just really bad luck we had, bad Sunday.
    This is a problem too. The pit wall will manipulate the outcome as well.
    Let them race with out taking each other, that’s it, but it will be very hard.
    Also how they are going to manage that if we get a good car next year? So far it looks like they are in the right track to achieve that next season.


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  28. #28
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    Ferrari has 50 million reasons to go along with Seb as to who's #1. Neither the team big shots or Seb ever thought Charles was this great. This discovery is supposed to be a great finding ;not a problem. It was just a big miscall by Ferrari thinking Seb was going to continue his WDCs baserd just on driving

  29. #29
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    Oh they got it so wròooooong.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19000rpmF-2004 View Post
    This is a problem too. The pit wall will manipulate the outcome as well.
    Let them race with out taking each other, that’s it, but it will be very hard.
    Also how they are going to manage that if we get a good car next year? So far it looks like they are in the right track to achieve that next season.
    You can't manage that. If Seb's good form continues in the rest of the year and next year too, these 2 will very likely clash on track.

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