Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 335

Thread: What is going on with Sebastian Vettel

  1. #181
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,584
    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    Button outscored Hamilton the 3 years they were together. Rosberg beat him. So not exactly a tough to beat team mate. Bottas is simply a slow driver, it also doesn't help when your teammate begs the team to slow you down so you can overtake Vettel (Baku 2017).
    Lewis as of 2019 is not exactly easy to beat. He sure looks like F-1 s next GOAT if he's not already there. F-1 should be only WCC winner at the end of each season, WDC is won by the car , not the driver. Back in the day Todt and Ross didn't need to be begged to "Let Michael pass! " it was automatic, in the contract. WDC , the $50 million dollar hoax! All in all Charles, Max and throw in Lewis will keep us F-1 race fans happy when it all comes back.

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    11,045
    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    Rosberg beat him.
    Yes, RosBerg beat Hamilton. Had'nt it been for Hamiltn's DNF in Malaysia, maybe the outcome MIGHT have been different for 2016.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Yes, RosBerg beat Hamilton. Had'nt it been for Hamiltn's DNF in Malaysia, maybe the outcome MIGHT have been different for 2016.
    Hadn’t timo G stop the car at the final lap. Massa would have been a champion.
    Hadn’t Ferrari pit stop error in Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso would have been a champion at Ferrari.

    There are lot of if’s & but. A title is a title. We can’t deny that.

    I agree Ham is a strong driver combined with intelligence. But I feel he’s not tested fully by the greats. Like Schumi or Alonso. That’s y I give preference to Senna/Schumi/Alonso as top drivers.

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    N. Delhi/Helsinki
    Posts
    4,972
    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    Hadn’t timo G stop the car at the final lap. Massa would have been a champion.
    Hadn’t Ferrari pit stop error in Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso would have been a champion at Ferrari.

    There are lot of if’s & but. A title is a title. We can’t deny that.

    I agree Ham is a strong driver combined with intelligence. But I feel he’s not tested fully by the greats. Like Schumi or Alonso. That’s y I give preference to Senna/Schumi/Alonso as top drivers.
    Point being made was Rosberg didn't exactly beat Hamilton. Hamilton lost because of engine failure from the lead of the race. 0 DNFs to Rosberg against 1 for Hamilton decided the title. Not saying Rosberg didn't deserve to win but he didn't "beat" Hamilton

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    Point being made was Rosberg didn't exactly beat Hamilton. Hamilton lost because of engine failure from the lead of the race. 0 DNFs to Rosberg against 1 for Hamilton decided the title. Not saying Rosberg didn't deserve to win but he didn't "beat" Hamilton
    “Beat” doesn’t count in the sport. What everyone counts is did he secure the title or not.
    Example: vettel won 4WDCs, all of them including me believe he has rocket ship under him. The same goes with Ham titles.
    He never beat anyone because no other competitor or no other car is competitive.
    If “beat” is considered, then I feel massa “beat” Hamilton in 2008. Alonso “beat” Hamilton. NR didn’t “beat” Hamilton.
    Ham didn’t “beat” anyone in this turbo era.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    11,045
    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    “Beat” doesn’t count in the sport. What everyone counts is did he secure the title or not.
    Example: vettel won 4WDCs, all of them including me believe he has rocket ship under him. The same goes with Ham titles.
    He never beat anyone because no other competitor or no other car is competitive.
    If “beat” is considered, then I feel massa “beat” Hamilton in 2008. Alonso “beat” Hamilton. NR didn’t “beat” Hamilton.
    Ham didn’t “beat” anyone in this turbo era.

    Yes, Massa beat Hamilton in 2008 for the WDC title......for about 33 seconds......then Hamilton overtook Glock and won the WDC title for 2008.

    2016: It was pretty much neck-and-neck with Hamilton and Rosberg at each GP........then Malaysia's DNF by Hamilton.

    The points at the end of the year by both Mecedes drivers in one of the most dominant cars in F1 history.

    Rosberg 385 points

    Hamilton 380 points

    NOTE: Had it not been for Hamilton's DNF in Malaysia, it's possible Hamilton would have come in first place (25pts).....but let's be conservative and say Hamilton get's 2nd place.....that WOULD HAVE BEEN 18pts added to the 380pt total.

    Rosberg had 0 DNF's throughout the 2016 season.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    11,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    Point being made was Rosberg didn't exactly beat Hamilton. Hamilton lost because of engine failure from the lead of the race. 0 DNFs to Rosberg against 1 for Hamilton decided the title. Not saying Rosberg didn't deserve to win but he didn't "beat" Hamilton
    +1
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Yes, Massa beat Hamilton in 2008 for the WDC title......for about 33 seconds......then Hamilton overtook Glock and won the WDC title for 2008.

    2016: It was pretty much neck-and-neck with Hamilton and Rosberg at each GP........then Malaysia's DNF by Hamilton.

    The points at the end of the year by both Mecedes drivers in one of the most dominant cars in F1 history.

    Rosberg 385 points

    Hamilton 380 points

    NOTE: Had it not been for Hamilton's DNF in Malaysia, it's possible Hamilton would have come in first place (25pts).....but let's be conservative and say Hamilton get's 2nd place.....that WOULD HAVE BEEN 18pts added to the 380pt total.

    Rosberg had 0 DNF's throughout the 2016 season.
    I completely got your point. What I wanted to express is there are two different versions here.
    Title count vs actual title winner(deserving).

    If there’s no DNF for Ham then he would have secured the title. But the fact is apart from NR no one has come close to Hamilton 2014-2019. Yes there needs to be luck factor to defeat Ham who had strong merc car. I would say NR deserved it.

  9. #189
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Iceoplex
    Posts
    1,893
    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    Point being made was Rosberg didn't exactly beat Hamilton. Hamilton lost because of engine failure from the lead of the race. 0 DNFs to Rosberg against 1 for Hamilton decided the title. Not saying Rosberg didn't deserve to win but he didn't "beat" Hamilton
    Dont forget Rosberg played it safe and only did what he needed to to secure the title in the last 4-5 races. He could afford to let Lewis win, in fact what was probably better than risking a collision with him. He simply stayed out of trouble and saved the engine as much as he could, there was no need to push for him. Would have been a complete different fight if Rosberg had needed to win in the last races. Rosberg was smart and cool, exactly what Hamilton fans are now praising Lewis for when he can afford to pick his battles as the car is so dominant he wins the WDC regardless.
    "Formula 1 is not a sport anymore” - Fernando Alonso

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Felipe Massa on Seb: I would say, in my opinion he did a very, very good job for Ferrari winning many races, even fighting for championships. It’s also true that he never had the car to win the championship, even if it was close – it was not the quickest car.

    To all of those who said we have championship winning car.

    One more thing, I posted this as it is related to our car too not to defend Vettel.
    Last edited by nani_s23; 28th May 2020 at 11:45.

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466
    That's it folks, Massa's statement settles it once and for all. Just like when he said Alonso is better than Schumacher, there can be no discussions about it. As we have just learned, Felipe's statements are absolute.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    11,045
    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    That's it folks, Massa's statement settles it once and for all. Just like when he said Alonso is better than Schumacher, there can be no discussions about it. As we have just learned, Felipe's statements are absolute.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  13. #193
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Christchurch,UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    That's it folks, Massa's statement settles it once and for all. Just like when he said Alonso is better than Schumacher, there can be no discussions about it. As we have just learned, Felipe's statements are absolute.
    Please don't mock Felipe, his statements are valid having driven beside both Schumacher and Alonso, he also seems to think that Seb may just decide to walk away from F1 after this season. It's all conjecture, of course, but as a long-time Massa fan, it's interesting to hear his views.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466
    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Please don't mock Felipe, his statements are valid having driven beside both Schumacher and Alonso, he also seems to think that Seb may just decide to walk away from F1 after this season. It's all conjecture, of course, but as a long-time Massa fan, it's interesting to hear his views.
    Not mocking Massa and not saying his opinions are invalid. Just mocking the poster and the narrative he's trying to portray here.

  15. #195
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Slovenia, Maribor
    Posts
    923
    Forza Seb that is all I will say. Stay strong. Hard times for me as bis biggest fan since 2007,but will remain humble and support him always. No matter where he goes.

  16. #196
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Poster who posted 2017 & 2018 are title winning cars ... have no answer.
    Arguing with invalid stuff. I’ve posted here 3 references
    1) Felipe who’s very much loyal to ferrari & liked by Tifosi. “It’s not driver, it’s the car”
    2) Jean Todt ex-ferrari, Says ferrari lacks unity.
    3) Ross B ex-ferrari principal, Ferrari lost its development path after mid season (2017 & 2018).

    So showing too much hatred & solely blaming on one driver who is driving for Ferrari & has a contract till 2020 isn’t correct.
    Mistake is from both the sides “vettel & ferrari” ..... it’s the same story “Alonso & Ferrari”..... car was never there.
    Only Alonso did manage to drag it till the end on both occasions.

  17. #197
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Please don't mock Felipe, his statements are valid having driven beside both Schumacher and Alonso, he also seems to think that Seb may just decide to walk away from F1 after this season. It's all conjecture, of course, but as a long-time Massa fan, it's interesting to hear his views.

  18. #198
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466
    For example, Vettel's own words about the SF70-H:

    It was the best car on the grid in many ways. But it had a power deficit compared to Mercedes. It went very strong everywhere, especially on the tracks were more downforce is needed. With a few more horse power we could have made a difference.
    Now there are only two power sensitive tracks in F1: SPA and Monza. But everywhere else, including SPA and Monza, downforce is the key. And it is funny, seeing how he excluded Baku and Singapore, two races where he could've easily scored 50 points.

    Marchionne:

    The second half revealed some structural weaknesses in the manner in which we are managing the business....If I had asked anybody at this time last year as to how well we would have done in 2017, I couldn't have got a buyer for the idea that we would be that far advanced in the first half of the season. So, we have done well given our starting point, [but] we were unable to finish the task. We regret not having done better, but the car is there – it's in my view the best car on the track today.
    A nice tech review: https://imgur.com/a/98mJi

    SF71-H vs Mercedes, a article from August 2018: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...rari-quickest/

    F1 season preview 2019, Karun Chandhok:

    Mark (Hughes) and I talked about it last year, I think Ferrari had the quicker car at arguably 11 races and you could say they were equal at 3 or 4, Mercedes certainly had a quicker car at less races last year yet LH won the championship with races to spare
    Todt and Massa's opinions are nice and supportive towards Vettel, and you can't expect otherwise. You don't expect Todt and Massa to highlight Vettel's several mistakes/incidents that he was involved. I mean on top of my head, here's few:
    Incidents in Canada 2017, Baku 2017, Singapore 2017, Mexico 2017, China 2018, Baku 2018, Germany 2018, France 2018, Italy 2018, Japan 2018, USA 2018 etc. And there are few more.
    And I still see the "2nd half of 2018 upgrades" excuse still being played here. Sure, Ferrari's Singapore upgrades were bad, nobody arguing otherwise. But the kept those upgrades for 2 races (Singapore and Russia), after that they removed it. But according to some, Ferrari getting their updates wrong over a 2 race period = "out developed in the 2nd half".

    Ferari removed those updates in USA (a race where Raikkonen had won and Vettel made yet another mistake), after that they were just as quick as Mercedes again. And one could argue that Mercedes having development/upgrade issues in races such as Canada & Mexico, made things easier for Vettel in those races. Also Mercedes had a few troublesome races as well, namely USA, Brazil, and especially Mexico. And the most important thing is, Vettel's mistakes didn't happen in a vacuum. While Hamilton, avoiding mistakes & maximizing their chances on tracks where Mercedes wasn't quickest, put pressure on Ferrari & Vettel, encouraging them to make mistakes under stress.

    Now let's talk about 2019, when Ferrari promoted Leclerc, a driver with only 21 race experience, as Vettel's teammate and new number 2. But at the very first race, Ferrari ordered Leclerc to say behind Vettel and not to overtake him, and at the second race, Leclerc takes Ferrari first pole, dominates it but unable to win because of a faulty PU component. In the end, Leclerc takes 7 poles, 2 wins, scores more points and podiums than his teammate. And as for Vettel, the same ol excuses: Car didn't suit him, couldn't drive the way he wanted blah blah blah. And as for Ferrari and it's management, they must have wondered about SF70H and SF71H, and whether or not Vettel took the best out of them.
    And now we know that, Ferrari did wondered. That's why Leclerc right now, has a 5 years contract and Vettel will be long gone after this year.

    Now the reason for my long post, the Vettel hive mind here, want to have us believe that he was driving a Williams in 2017 and 2018, not Ferrari. And the main reasons for him not winning: Ferrari. The not existent team management issues where they refused to support him fully, and the non existent bad strategy's they have given him race after race. Not those 13-14 mistakes that he had made out of 40 races from 2017-2018.

    To me it's quite simple, the difference between Mercedes and Ferrari (2017 and 2018) = the difference between Hamilton and Vettel.

  19. #199
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    "After your time passes at Ferrari, you may drive for another team, but you're always a Ferrari driver" : Massa

  20. #200
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    Above references itself proving SF70-H has weaknesses & is power deficit... still claiming a title winning car ... seems very funny.
    So even with power deficit car vettel should claim title against strong driver Ham & merc car. Interesting phrase which is more reliable like a bulletproof car. Wow

  21. #201
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466
    The 2019 Mercedes lacked power, but had plenty of downforce, just like the SF70. So should we say the 2019 Mercedes wasn't dominant, since power deficit is a bigger factor than downforce.
    And Hamilton also suffered reliability issues, like gearbox issue and penalty and losing a win due to headrest failure.
    And what's more, in 2018, Vettel had 0 reliability failures, but the points deficit to Hamilton was bigger than 2017.

    As I said before, the hivemind here will have us believe that Vettel was driving a Williams.

  22. #202
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Slovenia, Maribor
    Posts
    923
    The 2018 car was just not quick enough how hard is to realise you need also a good team beside you good strategy, a car that doesnt fall in development race as we did fail again after singapore when Mercedes became much faster. Seb did its job. You need everything to even catch that dominant Mercedes. In 2018 and 17 Mercedes were just playing with us always had that extra pace when needed. Team did not his job good enough, this is why some mistakes happen. Its always the same from 2007 on in 13 years Ferrari always failed even with top drivers Alonso, Kimi, Seb. Charles will also fail.

  23. #203
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,584
    OK, Ferrari failed for 13 yrs. Seb deserves better! Go in peace! Merc with open arms !!!

  24. #204
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Slovenia, Maribor
    Posts
    923
    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    OK, Ferrari failed for 13 yrs. Seb deserves better! Go in peace! Merc with open arms !!!
    I dont like Mercedes as a team but we cant deny the fact they are more organized. Even RBR are. I love Ferrari the most out of all teams, but thats the current reality.

  25. #205
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Kitchener, CANADA
    Posts
    9,908
    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    For example, Vettel's own words about the SF70-H:



    Now there are only two power sensitive tracks in F1: SPA and Monza. But everywhere else, including SPA and Monza, downforce is the key. And it is funny, seeing how he excluded Baku and Singapore, two races where he could've easily scored 50 points.

    Marchionne:



    A nice tech review: https://imgur.com/a/98mJi

    SF71-H vs Mercedes, a article from August 2018: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/...rari-quickest/

    F1 season preview 2019, Karun Chandhok:



    Todt and Massa's opinions are nice and supportive towards Vettel, and you can't expect otherwise. You don't expect Todt and Massa to highlight Vettel's several mistakes/incidents that he was involved. I mean on top of my head, here's few:
    Incidents in Canada 2017, Baku 2017, Singapore 2017, Mexico 2017, China 2018, Baku 2018, Germany 2018, France 2018, Italy 2018, Japan 2018, USA 2018 etc. And there are few more.
    And I still see the "2nd half of 2018 upgrades" excuse still being played here. Sure, Ferrari's Singapore upgrades were bad, nobody arguing otherwise. But the kept those upgrades for 2 races (Singapore and Russia), after that they removed it. But according to some, Ferrari getting their updates wrong over a 2 race period = "out developed in the 2nd half".

    Ferari removed those updates in USA (a race where Raikkonen had won and Vettel made yet another mistake), after that they were just as quick as Mercedes again. And one could argue that Mercedes having development/upgrade issues in races such as Canada & Mexico, made things easier for Vettel in those races. Also Mercedes had a few troublesome races as well, namely USA, Brazil, and especially Mexico. And the most important thing is, Vettel's mistakes didn't happen in a vacuum. While Hamilton, avoiding mistakes & maximizing their chances on tracks where Mercedes wasn't quickest, put pressure on Ferrari & Vettel, encouraging them to make mistakes under stress.

    Now let's talk about 2019, when Ferrari promoted Leclerc, a driver with only 21 race experience, as Vettel's teammate and new number 2. But at the very first race, Ferrari ordered Leclerc to say behind Vettel and not to overtake him, and at the second race, Leclerc takes Ferrari first pole, dominates it but unable to win because of a faulty PU component. In the end, Leclerc takes 7 poles, 2 wins, scores more points and podiums than his teammate. And as for Vettel, the same ol excuses: Car didn't suit him, couldn't drive the way he wanted blah blah blah. And as for Ferrari and it's management, they must have wondered about SF70H and SF71H, and whether or not Vettel took the best out of them.
    And now we know that, Ferrari did wondered. That's why Leclerc right now, has a 5 years contract and Vettel will be long gone after this year.

    Now the reason for my long post, the Vettel hive mind here, want to have us believe that he was driving a Williams in 2017 and 2018, not Ferrari. And the main reasons for him not winning: Ferrari. The not existent team management issues where they refused to support him fully, and the non existent bad strategy's they have given him race after race. Not those 13-14 mistakes that he had made out of 40 races from 2017-2018.

    To me it's quite simple, the difference between Mercedes and Ferrari (2017 and 2018) = the difference between Hamilton and Vettel.
    Very well put mate, that last paragraph is SPOT ON....like I said many times before and Vettel fanboys don’t tend to agree with me for whatever reason, IF we had someone in the likes of Alo or Ham in the team in 17 and 18, I am more then certain THEY would have fought harder and won the WDC in hose two years....but then again, what do I know, right?

  26. #206
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    India
    Posts
    11,173
    2019 Mercs lacked power
    What a piece of comedy statements coming one by one. With Or without only straight line speed a car can win all the races .... these people doesn’t know what car characteristics Mean.
    2017 Ferrari car vs Mercs - Lacked power & reliability compared to Mercs .... this is original statement. But few of them car pundits call 2017 title winning car ...awesome.
    2018 Ferrari car vs Mercs - strong car 1st Half of season vs Mercs /2nd half lost the way compared vs Mercs this is the original statement. But our pundits, who always call themselves as experts term Ham won with less powered car & vettel should have won when & where Ferrari lost its way in 2nd half due to set-up issue until Kimi won the race. They got back to old set up.

    Most funny part is When one pundit posts, other expert coming in turning this into Vettel fan boys post.

    Dear so called pundits, first discuss about the car. Whether 2017/18 Ferrari cars are title winner or not.
    we can discuss vettel vs whom you want to compare.

    Later part which I don’t damn care about it because as Felipe said once you drive for a Ferrari, will always be remembered.

  27. #207
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466


    "Car characteristics", LMAO. Again, another example of changing the facts. So 2019 Mercedes didn't lack any power compared to the Ferrari.
    Straight line speed? yeah well, with your Tesla level F1 knowledge, you'd definitely believe straight line speed = engine power.

    Now back to 2017-2018 discussion:
    https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/21/...major-upgrade/

    https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...-cause-a-slump

    "Reverted back to old setup"....
    Here it is folks, aero upgrades = car setup. Unsurprising from a guy who's still doesn't know that Traction Controls have been banned since 2008. I mean after all, he blamed Vettel's Malaysia 2017 reliability issues on TC failure. (Or by TC, he probably meant Tandoori Chicken, who knows? )

    1st half, 2nd half, old set-up , you heard it folks, neither SF70 or SF71 were good enough cars for Herr Vettel. Him spinning or crashing 8-9 times? doesn't matter, it was the car's fault.

  28. #208
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    9,466
    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariF60 View Post
    Very well put mate, that last paragraph is SPOT ON....like I said many times before and Vettel fanboys don’t tend to agree with me for whatever reason, IF we had someone in the likes of Alo or Ham in the team in 17 and 18, I am more then certain THEY would have fought harder and won the WDC in hose two years....but then again, what do I know, right?
    You know nothing @FerrariF60!

    Kidding aside, who cares if Vettel fans don't agree with you or not. December 2020, and it's Ciao to Herr Vettel.

  29. #209
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    3,369
    Quote Originally Posted by Vettel165 View Post
    Forza Seb that is all I will say. Stay strong. Hard times for me as bis biggest fan since 2007,but will remain humble and support him always. No matter where he goes.
    How the heck are you remaining humble while at the same time in the same sentence you declare yourself his biggest fan?
    And why are you still here?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  30. #210
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Slovenia, Maribor
    Posts
    923
    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    How the heck are you remaining humble while at the same time in the same sentence you declare yourself his biggest fan?
    And why are you still here?
    The same reason you are here. I have rights.

    Amazing read about Seb the reality. 4 titles, 53 wins maybe more to come, third in the history of the sport in the number of wins, third in the standings of the most victories for Ferrari.

    https://drivetribe.com/p/eiZmJy1hToW..._campaign=main

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •