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Thread: Ferrari 2020 Challenger Thread

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    You can't take that away from them no matter when you introduce hybrid. Even if it was introduced in 2025,Merc would still have the 4 year advantage because they started earlier. That can't be reversed.
    Either way, the reality is that by changing the rules to that engine formula, it would give Mercedes a big advantage over their rivals who mostly had no experience or prior years of development in the project.

    As mentioned, F1 was already a hybrid spec with KERS and that could have been developed upon, putting everyone on a relatively more equal footing going into the future instead of giving one team an inevitable advantage.
    Last edited by JPZ; 26th September 2020 at 23:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    At the time Merc were a new team and they were not a front runner. Why would the FIA seek to appease them at the detriment of the sport and of the more established teams?
    Euro gov't's. want to do away with the ICE platform altogether by 2035 or 2040 (I forget). The FIA is tied to Euro govt's. as a whole. This hybrid formula that was introduced in 2014 is a "stop-gap" to going fully electric set by the FIA and the Euro gov't's.

    So, Euro car manufactureres have to follow suit.......especially in Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    Either way, the reality is that by changing the rules to that engine formula, it would give Mercedes a big advantage over their rivals who mostly had no experience or prior years of development in the project.

    As mentioned, F1 was already a hybrid spec with KERS and that could have been developed upon, putting everyone on a relatively more equal footing going into the future instead of giving one team an inevitable advantage.
    Correct.

    It's the turbo hybrid of the formula that is the most complicated and most costly for 2014 till current. Ferrari, Renault, and Honda got in way over their heads. This is why no new engine manufacturers will join because of the money that is involved to catch-up, the length of time to catch-up, and the complexity.

    Prior to 2014, the formula was on an even playground. IF there was a change from 1.6ltr V-6 to 1.4ltr V-6....no problem for the engine manufacturers....done. KERS is more simple.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    At the time Merc were a new team and they were not a front runner. Why would the FIA seek to appease them at the detriment of the sport and of the more established teams?
    Great post ! Very true indeed. I just believe Todt and Brawn had enough influence to start the Merc legend . They left Ferrari and were only interested in what where and when Michael wound up .

  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    Either way, the reality is that by changing the rules to that engine formula, it would give Mercedes a big advantage over their rivals who mostly had no experience or prior years of development in the project.

    As mentioned, F1 was already a hybrid spec with KERS and that could have been developed upon, putting everyone on a relatively more equal footing going into the future instead of giving one team an inevitable advantage.
    I agree with you. The FIA should have found a way to even things out right at the start. But that said, it just seems like Merc bet on the right horse and reaped the rewards. I don't think it's fair to accuse the FIA of foul play in this regard.
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    Next upgrades at the Nürburgring

    Ferrari makes small progress. In Sochi it was enough to beat Alpha Tauri. Charles Leclerc achieved the maximum in sixth place. Sebastian Vettel paid to stay away from all sources of fire in the starting lap.
    Ferrari can breathe again after three bankruptcies in a row. The badly beaten team improved at the GP Russia. Not much, but a little. A small part of this was related to the new aero package and a larger part to the route characteristics. The output window in which you have to drive in Sochi is better for the SF1000 than Spa, Monza or Mugello. With mostly 90 degree turns, it is easier to bring the car into balance.

    The new front wing and modified rear wing end plates also helped. You did not bring lap times directly, but indirectly. The more stable downforce gave the drivers more confidence in the car. "That helped me to get the most out of it," said Leclerc. With Sebastian Vettel it only worked until the third training session. Then, as so often this season, the thread was lost.

    The starting lap determined the race of both Ferrari drivers. Leclerc came back from the first lap in eighth place and had Pierre Gasly, who was still faster at the time, in front of his nose. So the Monegasse could drive its pace undisturbed.
    Vettel was stuck in the middle of the gunpowder smoke and first had to avoid Carlos Sainz's spinning McLaren and then Lance Stroll's Racing Point, and suddenly found himself in 14th place. In front of him the slower Antonio Giovinazzi, whom he followed like a shadow for 17 laps until the Alfa Romeo finally turned into the pits.

    No wages for friendship
    For Vettel the race was over by then. "After the bad first lap, I got stuck in the back of the field in the traffic and couldn't get out. So I couldn't benefit from the collisions either." One noticed Vettel in this first round the particular caution. After many bad experiences this season and after the accident on Saturday, he didn't want to take any risks.
    In the end, he paid twice for this. He couldn't drive his speed and the tires suffered badly in traffic. Especially the tough mix in the second part of the race. Leclerc had an easier time with an open track in front of him: "I kept the tires in a much better condition today than on Friday."

    So it came about that Ferrari Vettel used as a strategic water carrier for the teammate. Vettel had to stay on the track longer than his medium tires were good for. The job was to hold off the two Renaults for as long as possible. It worked for ten laps with Esteban Ocon and three laps with Daniel Ricciardo. That gave Leclerc a place in the end.
    Ricciardo was too fast for the Ferrari driver despite the penalty. Ocon, on the other hand, never came close to Leclerc after he finally passed Vettel. For the German friendship service meant 13th place. "The late pit stop didn't help me, but it was clear that they would let me outside to block the Renault."

    More downforce on the rear axle
    There was disagreement after the race about how much the aero package brought. Team boss Mattia Binotto spoke of small advances and the proof that the new aerodynamic philosophy is on the right track. "It's so tight in midfield that small steps can make a big difference."
    Leclerc praised: "The car was easy to drive." Vettel, however, did not dare to take cover: "The car does what it should do. I hope the next steps confirm that." In fact, Ferrari gained two points more air on Alpha Tauri. At the same time, it could be seen that both Racing Point and Renault are significantly faster. And McLaren too, if their race hadn't gone so badly.
    The changes to the Ferrari are aimed at gaining more downforce in the rear. In a first step, this should be achieved with more stable contact pressure when the front wheels are turned and the car rolls over the longitudinal axis in the curves. A new underbody should then actually save time at the Nürburgring.

    If Ferrari can confirm the data from the wind tunnel on the track, then, according to Binotto, they want to throw themselves on the diffuser, which obviously sees the greatest development potential. More downforce in the rear means that Ferrari no longer has to give up so much downforce at the front to balance the car. Then the drivers could turn aggressively into the corners again. Which would especially help Vettel.

  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    At the time Merc were a new team and they were not a front runner. Why would the FIA seek to appease them at the detriment of the sport and of the more established teams?
    Easy, major manufacturer, decades in the sport doing engines, bought a team and prepared to pump in hundreds of millions a year for over a decade if have some reassurance of performance advantage. Merc are a fair weather manufacturer only do motorsport if can dominate if cannot win the leave or do not participate. They are Krauts at heart so would fall apart if the going ever gets tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Great post ! Very true indeed. I just believe Todt and Brawn had enough influence to start the Merc legend . They left Ferrari and were only interested in what where and when Michael wound up .
    Possibly.
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  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by 330 p4 View Post
    Easy, major manufacturer, decades in the sport doing engines, bought a team and prepared to pump in hundreds of millions a year for over a decade if have some reassurance of performance advantage. Merc are a fair weather manufacturer only do motorsport if can dominate if cannot win the leave or do not participate. They are Krauts at heart so would fall apart if the going ever gets tough.
    Interesting. I see.
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  9. #1029
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    Ferrari 2020 Challenger Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 330 p4 View Post
    Easy, major manufacturer, decades in the sport doing engines, bought a team and prepared to pump in hundreds of millions a year for over a decade if have some reassurance of performance advantage. Merc are a fair weather manufacturer only do motorsport if can dominate if cannot win the leave or do not participate. They are Krauts at heart so would fall apart if the going ever gets tough.
    According to an article I read recently it was Schumacher who convinced Mercedes heads to invest in the F1 team, up to 2012 they didn’t have a huge budget and he told them they need to give more money to get ahead. I’m not sure if they knew they would get more money when they started the hybrid engine development.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiklub View Post
    I’m not sure if they knew they would get more money when they started the hybrid engine development.


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    Of course Mercedes new. They were R&D'ing this new hybrid technology by 2012 and pumping alot more money into it....along with the aero changes, suspension changes, etc.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiklub View Post
    According to an article I read recently it was Schumacher who convinced Mercedes heads to invest in the F1 team, up to 2012 they didn’t have a huge budget and he told them they need to give more money to get ahead. I’m not sure if they knew they would get more money when they started the hybrid engine development.


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    Ferrari's heroes, Schumacher and Brawn, helps create their biggest rival...

    No one could have foreseen it, but it is ironic.

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    Ferrari's heroes, Schumacher and Brawn, helps create their biggest rival...

    No one could have foreseen it, but it is ironic.
    Very well said. Todt , Brawn , would do and did anything Michael asked . Michael's desire was for the German team to be great. He made his return and retired where he wanted to be. Wolf cant say enough about how great Michael's input was, and says the team is where they are because of Michael. Along comes Lewis! No one really knew he was going to do what he could 100% with what he gets from the team. Lewis will probably be with Merc for the next 7 races + at least 3 more years. 100 poles, 100 wins, and possibly 10 WDCs. And WCCs will pile up @ Merc. If only Ferrari could come alive again and do the same for Charles, he too could be that great.

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiklub View Post
    According to an article I read recently it was Schumacher who convinced Mercedes heads to invest in the F1 team, up to 2012 they didn’t have a huge budget and he told them they need to give more money to get ahead. I’m not sure if they knew they would get more money when they started the hybrid engine development.


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    Yeah so as soon as they put money in was the year the engine formula was decided. They would not have ramped up the money anyway under the stable rules, only in the run up to the new regs. The same was with Red Bull, huge new investment into F1 and seemed to get away with a lot of things, Ferrari were the same late 90's, had not won for a while but upped investment and was a great marketing story for F1. I bet if Renault pump loads of money into F1 they will end up on top in 2022 era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 330 p4 View Post
    Which are both up for sale and are French and Italian.

    French and Italian in name only - engineering is German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    At the time Merc were a new team and they were not a front runner. Why would the FIA seek to appease them at the detriment of the sport and of the more established teams?

    Young only as a complete team, but in F1 for many years as a main engine manufacturer. They had pull in F1 even though they were a 'young team'. They pushed for this engine formula because they knew they would have a jump on the others. You don't push so hard for a formula you aren't strong in. If you are going to invest billions, companies like Merc want assurances that their investment will pay off. They gave themselves the best chance possible.
    Ferrari really had no choice but to agree because Merc and Renault wanted these hybrids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    Young only as a complete team, but in F1 for many years as a main engine manufacturer. They had pull in F1 even though they were a 'young team'. They pushed for this engine formula because they knew they would have a jump on the others. You don't push so hard for a formula you aren't strong in. If you are going to invest billions, companies like Merc want assurances that their investment will pay off. They gave themselves the best chance possible.
    Ferrari really had no choice but to agree because Merc and Renault wanted these hybrids.

    agreed

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    R Bull did a 1.86 pit stop last race! Fastest so far this season. If Charles could pick up a second that way, in the pit , he for sure could come out and finish finish up a position or even two. I'm just thinking how hard it is to move up a second on the track . The pit could help erase some of the car's shortcomings.

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    Apparently there was some updates to our front wing/nose spotted. Great to see we are trying some things...

    The Ferrari update secrets revealed by Vettel's crash

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    ~FORZA FERRARI~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    R Bull did a 1.86 pit stop last race! Fastest so far this season. If Charles could pick up a second that way, in the pit , he for sure could come out and finish finish up a position or even two. I'm just thinking how hard it is to move up a second on the track . The pit could help erase some of the car's shortcomings.
    Good thinking Brembo and I agree, we seem to be pretty slow in our pit-stops compared to most other teams. It just adds to the poor overall impression of a team lacking confidence, along with some of the strategy decisions. Binotto keeps saying we need to take every chance offered, but often the failures are in the hands of the pit crew and pit-wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Good thinking Brembo and I agree, we seem to be pretty slow in our pit-stops compared to most other teams. It just adds to the poor overall impression of a team lacking confidence, along with some of the strategy decisions. Binotto keeps saying we need to take every chance offered, but often the failures are in the hands of the pit crew and pit-wall.
    It isn't particularly bad, per say but it is far from the best. RedBull and Williams are the pioneers here while McLaren is the worst by a long shot (a 3 second pitstop is not uncommon for them). With that being said, if we want to be champions, we need to push hard in every aspect.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

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    What's particularly bad is Ferrari finishing 6th or worse and Binotto saying 2yrs. to get up and really go. Every Ferrari pit stop should be 2 sec or better . Areo down force, Hp. , all that out the window! Pick up that precious second for our boy Charles !!! Not bad is very bad when Ferrari can't at least do the podiums. I want Binotto to run out of excuses! Seb can't be blamed for slow pits !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    What's particularly bad is Ferrari finishing 6th or worse and Binotto saying 2yrs. to get up and really go. Every Ferrari pit stop should be 2 sec or better . Areo down force, Hp. , all that out the window! Pick up that precious second for our boy Charles !!! Not bad is very bad when Ferrari can't at least do the podiums. I want Binotto to run out of excuses! Seb can't be blamed for slow pits !
    That's true. Now that the car can't be given upgrades without tokens until the end of 2021, we need to find seconds everywhere possible including pitstops. I wonder if we could just hire the Williams pit crew.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

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    Ferrari seem to be making progress finally. they were stronger at Sochi (charles not seb, but i think seb will always struggle with this ferrari unless they get the rear downforce sorted.) anywya thats my question: an article i read on Formula 1 News says Ferrari will run upgrades for the rear of the car the next f1 race in Germany.

    do you think this will help seb close up to leclerc? or do you think hes strugglign because of confidence, not balance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bottas99 View Post
    Ferrari seem to be making progress finally. they were stronger at Sochi (charles not seb, but i think seb will always struggle with this ferrari unless they get the rear downforce sorted.) anywya thats my question: an article i read on Formula 1 News says Ferrari will run upgrades for the rear of the car the next f1 race in Germany.

    do you think this will help seb close up to leclerc? or do you think hes strugglign because of confidence, not balance?
    TBH, I doubt that Seb is motivated enough anymore. But maybe I am wrong so we'll have to wait and see.
    I want him to go out in a high, but I doubt it.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  25. #1045
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    Seb was just 3 away from 7 WDCs and got the Ferrari seat. He has to be hurting for sure. I admire him for not retiring and continuing with his desire to be in F-1 driving .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Seb was just 3 away from 7 WDCs and got the Ferrari seat. He has to be hurting for sure. I admire him for not retiring and continuing with his desire to be in F-1 driving .
    Sure, he was also 6 away from 10.
    The thing is, he got beaten by Ric and he decided to run away from the challenge and the only team he could go to was Ferrari.

    He knew where he was going, he was replacing Alonso, who in turn did not manage to get a title. So he knew the challenge. And he failed to get a title as well. After getting beaten. Again.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Sure, he was also 6 away from 10.
    The thing is, he got beaten by Ric and he decided to run away from the challenge and the only team he could go to was Ferrari.

    He knew where he was going, he was replacing Alonso, who in turn did not manage to get a title. So he knew the challenge. And he failed to get a title as well. After getting beaten. Again.
    You admiration for Seb is overwhelming! Well at least when he retires he can say he drove for Ferrari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Sure, he was also 6 away from 10.
    The thing is, he got beaten by Ric and he decided to run away from the challenge and the only team he could go to was Ferrari.

    He knew where he was going, he was replacing Alonso, who in turn did not manage to get a title. So he knew the challenge. And he failed to get a title as well. After getting beaten. Again.
    He got offer from Ferrari, his favorite team, what he should have done? Say no? He got beaten by Leclerc in 2019 too, did he run? He wanted to drive for Ferrari beyond 2020 also, Ferrari made the decision to part ways, Vettel did not. You can accuse him of many things but accusing him off running from teammates ain't one.

    How many world champions on the grid have no problem in partnering up with anyone else? 2 and none of them is named Fernando or Lewis.

  29. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    He got offer from Ferrari, his favorite team, what he should have done? Say no? He got beaten by Leclerc in 2019 too, did he run? He wanted to drive for Ferrari beyond 2020 also, Ferrari made the decision to part ways, Vettel did not. You can accuse him of many things but accusing him off running from teammates ain't one.

    How many world champions on the grid have no problem in partnering up with anyone else? 2 and none of them is named Fernando or Lewis.
    I am not Seb to answer to you what he should or should not have done. But what I -can- tell you is one (that's you, btw) is should stick to facts.
    So... he got out of RBR when the going got tough, and favorite team or not, he got a very lucrative contract to come to Ferrari. He got that money in order to achieve certain targets, contrary to common belief , which is because of his 4 WDCs. Of course his previous performances played a big part but if you think a company just pays you for what you've achieved, you must be crazy.
    Did he achieve said goals? No.
    Was he solely responsible for that, no. But he failed regardless.
    Did he get beaten by a rookie? Yes.
    Was he responsible for that? Yes.

    And there you have it as to why Ferrari did not renew his contract, plain as day.

    I actually like the man, he is polite, pleasant,great sense of humor. But , in my opinion, not the one to drive Ferrari forward.
    Is Charles that person?
    Too early to tell, but he does have that something that I had seen at Michael. Ruthlessness, working for perfection.
    Let's see what happens.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  30. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    You admiration for Seb is overwhelming! Well at least when he retires he can say he drove for Ferrari.
    I am a ferrari fan. I don't have to admire a driver just to support him.

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