Ferrari 2020 Challenger Thread

**jgonzalesm6** · 13th July 2020, 10:02

Don't expect anything from Ferrari in Hungary.....rinse and repeat of Austria....according to Vettel.

"Vettel believes there is an improvement, but not enough to close the gap to Red Bull, Racing Point and McLaren or to pull away from Renault. It must be worrying for Ferrari that the next aerodynamic step will take some time."

Vettel stands behind his team : "It was a great achievement of the factory to bring forward the complete upgrade by one week. My feeling is it's doing what it's supposed to do. But we must also realize that we would have liked to have seen a bigger step forward."

Judging by the statements, it seems like those were all the upgrades for now.
So don't expect anything new for Hungary this week.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ark-spielberg/

**nani_s23** · 13th July 2020, 10:10

: according to researches from RTL, Ferrari are missing 40-45hp with their current engine compared to the others....

Tami, Nunez reported Ferrari will have a new radiator arrangement and a belly in Hungary and a narrower nose in silverstone

➡️ : "And the upgrades that don't work. Vettel says the upgrades maybe gave them about 0.1s per lap and they had hoped for much more because the gap is much bigger. Rumors say the gap to Mercedes is around 1s per lap."

After the race, Binotto went straight to Maranello...

**RicRac** · 13th July 2020, 10:28

I know we only have one token to bring in a new engine, but would it not be worth it to just keep bringing new engines and take the grid penalties? are we allowed to?

**jgonzalesm6** · 13th July 2020, 11:14

Originally Posted by nani_s23

: according to researches from RTL, Ferrari are missing 40-45hp with their current engine compared to the others....

Tami, Nunez reported Ferrari will have a new radiator arrangement and a belly in Hungary and a narrower nose in silverstone

➡️ : "And the upgrades that don't work. Vettel says the upgrades maybe gave them about 0.1s per lap and they had hoped for much more because the gap is much bigger. Rumors say the gap to Mercedes is around 1s per lap."

After the race, Binotto went straight to Maranello...

Interesting.....the 40 to50hp decrease would'nt surprise me.

Originally Posted by RicRac

I know we only have one token to bring in a new engine, but would it not be worth it to just keep bringing new engines and take the grid penalties? are we allowed to?

Good point. At this stage, why not try introducing a new SPEC 2 then a SPEC 3 PU.......screw the tokens and the grid peanlties. If it means starting from the back to get engine developement then I would do it. I mean the car is in bad shape.

All the Ferrari based engine cars did'nt make the top 10 in the race in Austria in Race 2. It's possible, due to the attrition in Race 1, that MAYBE one Ferrari would have made the top 10 in the race.

**Jax** · 13th July 2020, 11:42

Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6

Interesting.....the 40 to50hp decrease would'nt surprise me.

Good point. At this stage, why not try introducing a new SPEC 2 then a SPEC 3 PU.......screw the tokens and the grid peanlties. If it means starting from the back to get engine developement then I would do it. I mean the car is in bad shape.

All the Ferrari based engine cars did'nt make the top 10 in the race in Austria in Race 2. It's possible, due to the attrition in Race 1, that MAYBE one Ferrari would have made the top 10 in the race.

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT

**Greig** · 13th July 2020, 11:47

Originally Posted by Jax

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT

Yeah would not be allowed.

**Jax** · 13th July 2020, 13:43

Ferrari lost it's political power, that's one of the main issues. Had Brown and ****ing frenchie Jean todt been here, our engine would still be like it was last year, FIA wasen't able to prove it was illegal other wise we would have been fined and exposed. We found a loophole and used it, call it cheating or whatever you want. No one ever plays by the spirit of the rules, everyone is trying to find the smallest of loophole to use it for an advantage.... latest one is DAS the FIA could have outlawed it but that's some political power at works there for ya. Good for them

**SS454** · 13th July 2020, 16:29

Originally Posted by RicRac

This is what i think has happened to Ferrari... and it goes way back to when Mercedes first had their "Party" Mode so like maybe towards end of 2017... Mercedes had their Party mode and Ferrari needed to respond quickly, they found a "loophole" in the regulations, which allowed them to bypass the fuel limit set out by the regulations. At the time Ferrari probably thought that this is what Mercedes were doing, not knowing that Merc had actually developed a system that was within the regulations and not bypassing/breaching the fuel limiter.

Ofc, we all thought, ok well Ferrari have done it,they have found out how Merc party mode has worked and replicated it, and a lot better it would seem! Now that we have been caught out with the new fuel regulators its all out in the open. We developed a car around an Engine which as fans we thought was legal(which i believe now was not) for 2 to 3 years! We have NO party mode, the Ferrari runs in Q1,2, and 3 without upping the power like they used to. The car is not too bad in Race mode, but it is defintly not as powerful as the past. So forget about party modes, we never developed one to begin with. This leaves me to believe earlier this year that Cyril Abiteboul was completely spot on. The Renault engine is faster than ours, and more than likely the slowest Engine on the grid. Don't be surprised if you see the likes of Haas suing Ferrari or leaving for the Mercedes Engine.

Binnotto is a great guy, but not a team principle for the likes of Ferrari. We need someone that will take authority, responsibility, and is respected within the team. Arrivebene's time, unfortunately, was short-lived at Ferrari, but i think he had the right mentality to run our team as a Team Principal. Binnoto did well running the technical side of things, but I feel he lacks the support and respect needed to be a TP.

In conclusion, our car has been designed with last year's engine in mind, as well as our performance in the corners, which has made an extremely draggy car that has left us completely exposed for the world to point and laugh at. FIA didn't need to punish us, what we will see for the next two years, is the punishment fitting the crime. I Love my team, and will always support them, but something needs to change, and it should start with Louis Camilleri

Unfortunately I don't think it's just a party mode problem. Party Mode is used in Qual 3, Ferrari barely has enough power to get out of Qual 2. Also if it was just a Party Mode issue, then the SF1000 would have better race pace than the SF90, but it doesn't

I think the "draggy car" is a BS excuse by Binotto to try and pretend the car isn't extremely down on power. The SF1000 is not a whole lot different than the SF90. The bodywork is closed in more (which typically means less drag), but the wings are identical. There is nothing on the car aerodynamically to suggest the car is that much more draggy. Especially when draggy (dirty aero) comes as a byproduct of increased downforce. It doesn't appear the SF1000 has any more downforce than the SF90, the wet weather performance certainly suggests the car is down on downforce. A car that has Red Bull levels of downforce and by far the least amount of power SHOULD be the easiest car to drive. Both drivers say otherwise.

I tend to believe Ferrari have trimmed out the SF1000 for more top end speed, sacrificing the car's outright downforce which has made it a poor handling car.

I completely agree with Haas and Alfa Romeo wanting to leave. Why would they stick around with an engine that is this bad? Honda has even massively outperformed Ferrari's engine development. I just don't understand how it is possible Ferrari could be this bad.

**stefa** · 13th July 2020, 18:21

Originally Posted by Jax

Ferrari lost it's political power, that's one of the main issues. Had Brown and ****ing frenchie Jean todt been here, our engine would still be like it was last year, FIA wasen't able to prove it was illegal other wise we would have been fined and exposed. We found a loophole and used it, call it cheating or whatever you want. No one ever plays by the spirit of the rules, everyone is trying to find the smallest of loophole to use it for an advantage.... latest one is DAS the FIA could have outlawed it but that's some political power at works there for ya. Good for them

Well said. I remember Malaysia 2001 when MS and RB after 1-2 ware disqualified after the race coz McLaren protested that barge boards ware illegal. Quick after that it was all deamed clear and Ferrari kept 1-2. I am not saying that they ware not legal or legal, but back at the time Ferrari was big and mighty in political way. There ware no messing arround with them.

**ferrari1.8t** · 13th July 2020, 22:12

Originally Posted by Jax

Ferrari lost it's political power, that's one of the main issues. Had Brown and ****ing frenchie Jean todt been here, our engine would still be like it was last year, FIA wasen't able to prove it was illegal other wise we would have been fined and exposed. We found a loophole and used it, call it cheating or whatever you want. No one ever plays by the spirit of the rules, everyone is trying to find the smallest of loophole to use it for an advantage.... latest one is DAS the FIA could have outlawed it but that's some political power at works there for ya. Good for them

I have been saying it for years; although it sounds like a conspiracy theory - Mercs dominance, and the constant pushing of Ferrari down is done to remove their status and bonus payment. After all, how could Ferrari request a bonus payment when they haven’t won in 12 + years and have looked lost/embarrassed most of the time? If the FIA and Liberty can make Ferrari irrelevant, they stand to save/make millions. We have lost all political power and our elite status is going down with every race/winless season. marchionne‘s death was the final blow - he was the only one left with the “you know what” to push back. Just my opinion...

**Jax** · 13th July 2020, 22:22

Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t

I have been saying it for years; although it sounds like a conspiracy theory - Mercs dominance, and the constant pushing of Ferrari down is done to remove their status and bonus payment. After all, how could Ferrari request a bonus payment when they haven’t won in 12 + years and have looked lost/embarrassed most of the time? If the FIA and Liberty can make Ferrari irrelevant, they stand to save/make millions. We have lost all political power and our elite status is going down with every race/winless season. marchionne‘s death was the final blow - he was the only one left with the “you know what” to push back. Just my opinion...

I feel sad for Charles if anything and I pity Carlos :/

**Brembo** · 14th July 2020, 03:23

Forget for the moment the car. Binotto has to get the inside politics @ Ferrari straight if he can. The drivers are at war over who's #1, #2 and Binotto hasn't a clue what to do. DNF cancels any car improvements as was the case lat race. There was of course no intention to hit Seb but Charles was flying to get ahead of Seb and also the rest at any cost. If Sen finishes ahead of him it looks bad as to his wanting the #1 seat. I believe both drivers know Lewis will do what he does as far a winning with his Merc. They are more wanting to beating each other and be #1 driver at any cost. Look where they have Ferrari points wise so far. It wasn't the car.

**chinmay** · 14th July 2020, 06:59

Originally Posted by Brembo

Forget for the moment the car. Binotto has to get the inside politics @ Ferrari straight if he can. The drivers are at war over who's #1, #2 and Binotto hasn't a clue what to do. DNF cancels any car improvements as was the case lat race. There was of course no intention to hit Seb but Charles was flying to get ahead of Seb and also the rest at any cost. If Sen finishes ahead of him it looks bad as to his wanting the #1 seat. I believe both drivers know Lewis will do what he does as far a winning with his Merc. They are more wanting to beating each other and be #1 driver at any cost. Look where they have Ferrari points wise so far. It wasn't the car.

Oh boy...Looks like along with SF1000, you also need an upgrade in time for Hungarian Grand Prix.

P.S you forgot to mention Seb's 50 million dollar in your post.

**Brembo** · 14th July 2020, 09:25

Originally Posted by chinmay

Oh boy...Looks like along with SF1000, you also need an upgrade in time for Hungarian Grand Prix.

P.S you forgot to mention Seb's 50 million dollar in your post.

OK it was lack of down force and wrong tire choice that caused zero points for Ferrari.

**Vettel165** · 14th July 2020, 09:41

Ferrari and Binotto already getting their karma for sacking a 4 time world champion. It will only go downhill from now on, hard days for Ferrari. Ferrari will probably sack Binotto in the middle of the season, I am calling it now.

What happened when Seb came at Ferrari in 2015 the team started to improve with his contribution.

2015: Great car with amazing low-speed perfomance+bad engine
2016: Still could fight for podium places, solid chassis+solid engine
2017: Amazing chassis+solid engine
2018: Top class chassis+ good engine

After Arrivabenes departure it went downhill. You need a leader with balls, not that Harry Potter guy. Why they would go for a high-drag car, that it always a RBR area. Ferrari always made good cars will low-drag and good engine. At least will low-drag design from last year we would at least fight with Red Bull. Ferrari is on the same road as Mclaren in 2013, was awesome in 2012, but changed their car philosophy and went into midfield within few months. This is worse than 2014.

2019: Bad chassis+ low drag car with good engine
2020: Bad low speed perfomance+ bad engine+ bad everything.

**Schumiklub** · 14th July 2020, 09:51

Originally Posted by Vettel165

Ferrari and Binotto already getting their karma for sacking a 4 time world champion. It will only go downhill from now on, hard days for Ferrari. Ferrari will probably sack Binotto in the middle of the season, I am calling it now.

What happened when Seb came at Ferrari in 2015 the team started to improve with his contribution.

2015: Great car with amazing low-speed perfomance+bad engine
2016: Still could fight for podium places, solid chassis+solid engine
2017: Amazing chassis+solid engine
2018: Top class chassis+ good engine

After Arrivabenes departure it went downhill. You need a leader with balls, not that Harry Potter guy. Why they would go for a high-drag car, that it always a RBR area. Ferrari always made good cars will low-drag and good engine. At least will low-drag design from last year we would at least fight with Red Bull. Ferrari is on the same road as Mclaren in 2013, was awesome in 2012, but changed their car philosophy and went into midfield within few months. This is worse than 2014.

2019: Bad chassis+ low drag car with good engine
2020: Bad low speed perfomance+ bad engine+ bad everything.

Yeah right, it’s all because they sacked Vettel. He never did justice to his 4 titles. He had a chance to win 2018, he screwed it up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Vettel165** · 14th July 2020, 09:55

Originally Posted by Schumiklub

Yeah right, it’s all because they sacked Vettel. He never did justice to his 4 titles. He had a chance to win 2018, he screwed it up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But you see my point, when Ferrari had Kimi and Seb they are well known for their contribution in developing the car. They know exacly what they want, Seb staying like Michael late night with the engineers to find better setup and to fix the car. The 2020 car was made without his part, probably part of it because they sack him. And Leclerc has not got enough experience.

In 2017 in second part we havent got the car for WDC, in 2018 the car went downhill after Singapore where Hamilton dominated. The Mercedes had better everyting, was always a few steps ahead. Seb did its best.

**330 p4** · 14th July 2020, 09:56

Theres an article somewhere doing the rounds that the drag is not all to do with downforce improvements. Ferrari have a tiny airbox above drivers head and a skinny engine cover as all radiators are in the side pods. This year sidepods are truly skinny but this means it's all so tight inside that air is getting stuck causing a huge build up on side of inlets meaning huge drag but no downforce with this drag also cooling issues as a result. Sorry not sure where this article is I will try and find it. Over the season a big change may mean moving a radiator into engine cover meaning a bigger air intake above drivers head and redesigning air flow through sidepods, this would reduce drag but may not reduce current downforce.

**Scuderia27** · 14th July 2020, 10:05

I think in this era, with very limited testing and all the acumulated data and software advances, the driver input to the car is very small compared to what was is the 80's /90's.

They are good for that extra 0,1 secs ( and that is very important ) but not to make the difference bettween a crap or a gold car.

**330 p4** · 14th July 2020, 10:08

Other news (to be taken with a pinch of salt) the gearbox is still not updated so is not rigid enough, they are running compromised suspension settings to compensate. Although probably complete rubbish these things give some hope as there is potential to fix....but it's the hope that kills you.

**SS454** · 14th July 2020, 16:16

Originally Posted by 330 p4

Theres an article somewhere doing the rounds that the drag is not all to do with downforce improvements. Ferrari have a tiny airbox above drivers head and a skinny engine cover as all radiators are in the side pods. This year sidepods are truly skinny but this means it's all so tight inside that air is getting stuck causing a huge build up on side of inlets meaning huge drag but no downforce with this drag also cooling issues as a result. Sorry not sure where this article is I will try and find it. Over the season a big change may mean moving a radiator into engine cover meaning a bigger air intake above drivers head and redesigning air flow through sidepods, this would reduce drag but may not reduce current downforce.

If Ferrari couldn't determine that during CFD testing, or wind tunnel testing, then they should fire their entire aero department.

If the SF1000 was worse than the SF90, why wouldn't they just run the SF90? They had already reduced power when the dual fuel flow meters got installed last season. Fuel delivery and boost could be altered to the SF90's engine through software and would have zero effect on packaging.

Honestly nothing really adds up to why the 2020 car is so much worse.

**330 p4** · 14th July 2020, 16:30

Originally Posted by SS454

If Ferrari couldn't determine that during CFD testing, or wind tunnel testing, then they should fire their entire aero department.

If the SF1000 was worse than the SF90, why wouldn't they just run the SF90? They had already reduced power when the dual fuel flow meters got installed last season. Fuel delivery and boost could be altered to the SF90's engine through software and would have zero effect on packaging.

Honestly nothing really adds up to why the 2020 car is so much worse.

Yeah if it was simple it would not be an issue in the 1st place. A lot of these articles do state thing which seem plausible but may not actually be the issues. The SF90 would be a lot slower with this engine in than the SF1000.

**SS454** · 14th July 2020, 16:42

Originally Posted by 330 p4

Yeah if it was simple it would not be an issue in the 1st place. A lot of these articles do state thing which seem plausible but may not actually be the issues. The SF90 would be a lot slower with this engine in than the SF1000.

I tend to agree. The SF1000 has to be a better chassis, which always means better aerodynamics, likely better center of gravity, maybe less weight, suspension revisions, etc. Not knowing track condition differences between 2019 and 2020, but if the Ferrari is truly 9+ tenths slower than the SF90 around in qualifying, then that's well over 1 second a lap from the engine alone. That literally could be a 2016/17 spec engine to be that far down in power.

**PURE PASSION** · 14th July 2020, 18:54

Antonello Coletta could replace Mattia Binotto as Ferrari Team Principal

http://scuderiafans.com/antonello-co...eam-principal/

**stefa** · 14th July 2020, 19:06

Ferrari is in downward spiral falling fast...

**330 p4** · 14th July 2020, 20:24

Originally Posted by SS454

I tend to agree. The SF1000 has to be a better chassis, which always means better aerodynamics, likely better center of gravity, maybe less weight, suspension revisions, etc. Not knowing track condition differences between 2019 and 2020, but if the Ferrari is truly 9+ tenths slower than the SF90 around in qualifying, then that's well over 1 second a lap from the engine alone. That literally could be a 2016/17 spec engine to be that far down in power.

They said engine or straight line speed (drags an issue) cost 0.7. Last year it was gaining 1.2, that's a swing of 1.9 seconds. That would put the SF1000 at 1 second a lap faster as a chassis. Seems possible as SF90 chassis was very bad, 1.2 gain on engine but still only occasionally scrapped past the Mercs.