Full Member
They weren’t copied, they were hand delivered from Mercedes. Like the rest of the car was. Best part is, they are allowed to keep using the illegal brakes.Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6
FIA to Ferrari- your engine is too fast, we can’t prove how. But its not letting Hamilton win 8 titles so stop using it.
FIA to Racing Point - Your brake ducts are illegal and we can prove it. But keep using them because you can’t unlearn what you already know from Merc.
Joke.
~FORZA FERRARI~
Full Member
Let's get specific. The rear brakes were hand delivered and copied and illegal. The rest of the car was copied by photo's of the W10 from Racing Point...so they say.
The engine is a technical regulation with Ferrari....so a "slap on the wrist" plus another "nanny" to monitor the situation.
The brake ducts are a sporting regulation so the fine and 7.5pts each car from the constructors points.
But yes, Racing Point can still use the illegal rear brake ducts the rest of the season. Maybe that rule needs to change. Some of the FIA rules are antiquated.
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
Big big big joke fia no idea they have sunk f1.Double standards they are protecting mercedes and that wolf.Ferrari should put the engine back in the car and scew the fia screw totto wolf and screw mercedes oh screw red bull to for initiating the probe into Ferrari.
Full Member
Sure, let’s get specific. Merc and Racing Point both categorically denied sharing of parts or information, yet here we are today with an FIA verdict. There is no credibility in what Merc and Racing Point say. This verdict proves Merc was lying just as much as a racing point. I could care less about racing points fines, I just find it hilarious that there is no mention of penalties for Merc in all of this.
~FORZA FERRARI~
Full Member
Mercedes did all this under the eye's of the FIA. Mercedes complied under the rules and time limits regarding what's allowed.
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
LOL of course they did.
~FORZA FERRARI~
Full Member
From F1.com in February 2020.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...OAMvTCr8x.html
So, is this new RP20 a copy-paste job?
“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.
“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”
All lies, and everyone willfully believes them because “the almighty Mercedes” couldn’t possibly be lying. Mercedes gave RP the W09 to ensure another butler between Hamilton and the rest of the field. Wolff is also setting up a good base for his new team Aston Martin that he has financial stakes in.
~FORZA FERRARI~
Full Member
It's hard to understand how a car is deemed illegal and yet still allowed to race unchanged. Maybe Ferrari should put last years engine in the SF1000. If it's only going to cost us 15 points.... go for it. Even if it costs us all points to date... go for it.
Full Member
I agree. It seems like anything goes, well anything that is associated with a Mercedes.
~FORZA FERRARI~
Full Member
ummm, this is part of F1. BTW, this is'nt the first time this happens in F1 where a car is deemed "illegal" but still allowed to race.
This is yet another loophole in the rules where if someone exploits it,,,,,uses it to their advantage....and pays a small fine or possible points taken away....then moves up throughout the season.
DOES IT NEED CHANGING????? ABSO-LUTELY. Some of these rules are antiquated. But until then, rules are rules.
The FIA are currently under plans of thwarting "copying" for 2021 onwards.
Last edited by Rob; 7th August 2020 at 20:51.
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
If I were Binotto, I'd have a testing mule running around Fiorano 24x7 right now and develop current and future Ferrari's based on that data. Sure, it will be illegal, but 15 points deduction for that will be totally worth it.
Full Member
The brakes became one of the listed parts for 2020. Wouldn't that have been on the list before January 6th 2020?
I can understand the technicality that RP purchased Mercedes W09 front brakes in 2019, as it was legal, and therefore were able to copy it to exact replica. Probably complete nonsense, but okay it's technically possible. I dont even think the 2019 Racing Point used Mercedes front brakes, but that's beside the point.
Assuming that as of January 6th, 2020 that brakes were part of the 2020 listed parts, then Mercedes and Racing Point flat out broke the rules of the sporting regulations. They are on record of lying that the RP20 did not have Mercedes made parts (aside from the legal ones like the engine). Racing Point has been caught using parts that are deemed illegal, and they get a tiny fine and are allowed to continue to use the illegal parts going forward, and Mercedes doesn't even get mentioned for wrong doing.
jgonzalesm6 makes a point about sporting regs vs technical regs, but I think a car can still be DQ'd for breaking the sporting regulations. Michael Schumacher got DQ'd from 2nd place in 1997 for trying to crash into JV, that's not technical regulation. McLaren got DQ'd in the WCC in 2007 for spygate which is sporting regulation. Plus, lets say for the sake of argument a team could run another team's front wing because it'd be faster, the sporting regulations would not permit this and the car would not be allowed to race.
Call it what you want, this is a joke and a slap in the face to all the competitors and fans.
Full Member
Exactly, why shouldnt every team flat out break the sporting regulations? Could they even be fined the 15 points? If they test using a single car that is not raced in an official event, how can they hand out a point penalty? I am sure they can be fined, but if it means capturing 2nd in the WCC, that could be worth millions of dollars.
Full Member
Just curious.. when was a car allowed to race after it was deemed illegal without having to change the car or the offending part? I can't remember any. There are lots of instances when a car can slightly alter parts to make them legal and so can race.
Full Member
I think the main point is, which one comes first? "Sporting regulations" or "Technical regulations"? According to the FIA, Tracing Point broke the sporting regulations, but they didn't break technical regulations, so the illegal part, which the FIA themselves admitted of being illegal, "technically" is legal.
We all know coping is part of the sport. But TP/RP have taken it beyond anything we have ever seen before, way outside of the ethical rules and regulations. Because it's not possible to successfully reverse engineer a complex machine like a F1 car based on pictures alone. To me, if the car is deemed illegal under sporting regulations, then it is illegal. Right now, RP is allowed to race with a illegal car, which is simply not fair.
Full Member
-Tyrrell P34 (6 wheeled cars)
-Williams FW14B and FW15C (active suspension)
-Benetton B194 (traction control)
-Mclaren MP4/12 (brake steer)
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
Would the Renault R25-26 (I think) Mass Damper count?
Full Member
yepWould the Renault R25-26 (I think) Mass Damper count?
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
Ferrari is going to appeal FIA ruling on Tracing Point. Well done Binotto.
It's time to show more grits and do what is "best for Ferrari and Ferrari only."
Salut Gilles
No they had to remove it once it was made illegal, just like the McLaren 3rd pedal they were not allowed to just keep using it when it was declared illegal.Would the Renault R25-26 (I think) Mass Damper count?
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
Are you sure these cars were classified as illegal at the time they raced?
The Benetton for example I thought was only found to have software capable of TC but were never found actually using it. I do know they got DQ'd from British GP for ignoring black flags (sporting regs)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought at least most of these were legal at the time of racing and got banned afterwards, like how active suspension was banned after 1993.
Full Member
Ahhh okies
I honestly thought it was one of those that could stay the whole season.
Salut Gilles
Sure there was more cars still with TC in the software Ferrari included that remained from when it was legal, Benetton were not using it or allowed to use it as it was illegal
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
I don't think those cars were deemed illegal while they were racing. I know the Tyrrel actually raced for 1 or 2 seasons and then it was outlawed to have more than 4 wheels. I believe it's the same for the Williams. They were perfectly legal and then the FIA banned active suspensions at the beginning of 1994.. The Benetton was never found to be illegal, it did have software that was illegal but they couldn't prove it was used. And the Mclaren had to remove the third pedal after it was deemed legal.
I think Racing Point has set a precedent. I can't think of another car allowed to race as is once it's been declared illegal. They should at least need to replace the brake ducts.
Full Member
I see your point.
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
Ferrari & McLaren just appealed the decision against Racing Point arguing the penalty was too lenient.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ke-duct-ruling
http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi...ards_decision/
Full Member
For all I know Lawrence said to Toto, I have a brilliant idea! Listen up. Do you want to secure some titles? And have my team take away competitor points? I have an army ready to take all sorts of pictures from your car during the season. After the season you deliver the 2019 car at our factory. And we concentrate during the winter to produce fake evidence in case we get questioned.
Full Member
I like this idea. At most we should get the same sort of slap on the wrist merc got with their illegal tyre test back in 2013.
Full Member
i really think there is something deeper here, if we could somehow proove that information went both directions, that would be great. How else do you explain the mercedes increases?
But I guess you could say that the past racing point cars, being high rake, there would be nothing worthwhile that racing point could offer Merc in terms of engineering.
Full Member
15 points....
Mr Binitto here is an idea, SF90 sucks, trace out a Mercedes and stick last years engine into it!
If Tracing Point can do such a good job, im sure our tracengineers can do one better.
Or maybe SF is so far out of touch, that we cannot even do a copy paste job well
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks