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Thread: Move Ferrari to England and get a Merc engine....

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Newey's wife did not want to move not Newey, Allison left to go home after the death of his wife, he had previously already been at Ferrari so clearly had no issue moving to Italy, he did not leave because of anything to do with Italy.
    Newey's wife didn't want to move to Italy from where they lived... in England.

    Allison left because his wife passed and he wanted to be with his family which was in... England.

    So what you are saying is that if the engineering department was in England, Newey would have joined because his wife would not have protested and Allison would not have left because he would have already been with his family.

    Thank you for proving my point Greig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    He did just fine at Mclaren...



    There will always be turnover regardless of nationality. Even the Italians will come and go.



    A move like this has a lot of costs involved. It's not something that should done on a whim or as a knee jerk reaction to a poor start to the season.

    Looking back at what happened with Barnard does give us insights into the difficulties of such a setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Maybe because he was not the team principal? He was technical director heading up the car design team not running the whole team.


    So just because it failed once in the 90's, it will fail again....whether 10yrs ago or starting today???? Maybe you guys are right!! Why even try again!!

    Let's just stick to the way things are then.

    The "Dream Team" of the 2000's will never happen again with Ferrari......and that was a mix of gentlemen that knew how to run an F1 team. Ferrari will not cave again to that mix of cohesiveness and engineering......it has to be all Italian or nothing......jeeeeeeezzzz.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So just because it failed once in the 90's, it will fail again....whether 10yrs ago or starting today???? Maybe you guys are right!! Why even try again!!

    Let's just stick to the way things are then.

    The "Dream Team" of the 2000's will never happen again with Ferrari......and that was a mix of gentlemen that knew how to run an F1 team. Ferrari will not cave again to that mix of cohesiveness and engineering......it has to be all Italian or nothing......jeeeeeeezzzz.
    Yup. No reason to change anything, clearly the way Ferrari works now is working just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So just because it failed once in the 90's, it will fail again....whether 10yrs ago or starting today???? Maybe you guys are right!! Why even try again!!

    Let's just stick to the way things are then.

    The "Dream Team" of the 2000's will never happen again with Ferrari......and that was a mix of gentlemen that knew how to run an F1 team. Ferrari will not cave again to that mix of cohesiveness and engineering......it has to be all Italian or nothing......jeeeeeeezzzz.
    Perhaps you would like to explain why you're so sure that it wouldn't fail again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01 View Post
    Yup. No reason to change anything, clearly the way Ferrari works now is working just fine.
    How can you be so sure that the location of the design office is what's holding Ferrari back?

    If we're talking about this season specifically, it is quite clear that the engine is a dead weight. Relocating the chassis design office to somewhere in Northamptonshire won't help improve the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Perhaps you would like to explain why you're so sure that it wouldn't fail again?
    2nd post of this thread.


    Unless you're unsure Ferrari cannot hire the best there is???
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    2nd post of this thread.


    Unless you're unsure Ferrari cannot hire the best there is???
    Perhaps you could be more specific...

    For example:

    Who specifically will Ferrari hire that they can't hire now?

    Which wind tunnel will they use in England? Or would they build a new one? Where would the funding come from?

    What would happen to the design office and wind tunnel at Maranello?

    How will you address the inevitable inefficiencies created from having the engine team in one location and the chassis team in another location?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Perhaps you could be more specific...

    For example:

    Who specifically will Ferrari hire that they can't hire now??
    Had Ferrari done the move 10 years ago, maybe they would have had the likes of Horner or Wolff? Alot better than say the "Marlboro:" men that have been running the team??

    By NOW would mean that they would already be established...yes. Why not hire the best? Ferrari has the money....no?



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Which wind tunnel will they use in England? Or would they build a new one? Where would the funding come from?
    Build a new one.....Ferrari has the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    What would happen to the design office and wind tunnel at Maranello?
    The wind tunnel would remain for the production cars but the F1 design office would close and transfer to England.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    How will you address the inevitable inefficiencies created from having the engine team in one location and the chassis team in another location?
    Mercedes AMG does it....the chassis is built at Brackley....while the engine at Germany at AMG.....not so inefficiencient is it? Ferrari could do the same....no?

    Honda does the same thing.....builds the engine in Japan....then it gets transfered to Milton Keynes.

    Ferrari can do too.
    Last edited by jgonzalesm6; 8th July 2020 at 00:11.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Ferrari do not need to touch the UK. It would damage the brand, they make super cars and would catch the UK car company disease of failure. Look at Lotus, Aston Martin, McLaren all financial disasters, even Bentley are shedding staff and they are owned by VAG. Allison was at Ferrari a while and not many were impressed at the time. Da Costa is Italian, was fired and was a genius when at Merc. Nothing to do with the country in modern times. Ferrari thought this and acted on it in 90's and failed, yet by the end of the decade won 6 straight constructors and 5 drivers titles....all based in Italy. Start of Cov19 UK was better place to be then Italy but in the end UK was much worse. Ferrari just need to sell lots of cars in the UK and not taint themselves by being based there.

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    Move Ferrari to England and get a Merc engine....

    I totally agree. Da Costa was a great designer as we can see the long lasting effects of his designs at Mercedes. Ferrari’s big mistake was to fire him. That was Di Montezemolo’s big blunder. Who can name the chief designer at Ferrari today. I can’t. Is it Simone Resta? I also feel that the death of Marchionne is having its effects now. The team was on the rise under him and now it’s hitting some tough times. But Mercedes was not great either during the V10 era. F1 does go in cycles and when the right team gels it will be unstoppable. So, should we say Ferrari is a horrible team? Absolutely not. They’ve been top three for most years since their dominance. So, why are they so heavily criticized? When they don’t win the championship, they blame the team being Italian. The team was 90% Italian during the Brawn days and were based 100% in Italy. But don’t forget we also had the best driver of all time. Let’s be patient. They have the right driver now. Just my opinion.


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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Had Ferrari done the move 10 years ago, maybe they would have had the likes of Horner or Wolff? Alot better than say the "Marlboro:" men that have been running the team??
    Wolff has 2 homes. One in the UK and one in Switzerland. He also spends a lot of his time skiing in Austria. Being based in Italy would actually be more convenient for him. Also bear in mind that Wolff was not an established team principal 10 years ago.

    As for Horner - Red Bull have been less successful than Ferrari during the hybrid era. Why would Ferrari want him?


    Build a new one.....Ferrari has the money.
    Right...because Ferrari grows money on trees


    The wind tunnel would remain for the production cars but the F1 design office would close and transfer to England.
    Do you mean the road cars?

    Which wind tunnel would be used for the F1 cars? What happens to all the facilities in the Maranello design office?

    Mercedes AMG does it....the chassis is built at Brackley....while the engine at Germany at AMG.....not so inefficiencient is it? Ferrari could do the same....no?
    The Merc engines are designed and built in Northamptonshire.

    Honda does the same thing.....builds the engine in Japan....then it gets transfered to Milton Keynes.

    Ferrari can do too.
    And Honda have won 0 championships since returning to F1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brawnydog View Post
    I totally agree. Da Costa was a great designer as we can see the long lasting effects of his designs at Mercedes. Ferrariís big mistake was to fire him. That was Di Montezemoloís big blunder. Who can name the chief designer at Ferrari today. I canít. Is it Simone Resta? I also feel that the death of Marchionne is having its effects now. The team was on the rise under him and now itís hitting some tough times. But Mercedes was not great either during the V10 era. F1 does go in cycles and when the right team gels it will be unstoppable. So, should we say Ferrari is a horrible team? Absolutely not. Theyíve been top three for most years since their dominance. So, why are they so heavily criticized? When they donít win the championship, they blame the team being Italian. The team was 90% Italian during the Brawn days and were based 100% in Italy. But donít forget we also had the best driver of all time. Letís be patient. They have the right driver now. Just my opinion.


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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Wolff has 2 homes. One in the UK and one in Switzerland. He also spends a lot of his time skiing in Austria. Being based in Italy would actually be more convenient for him. Also bear in mind that Wolff was not an established team principal 10 years ago.

    As for Horner - Red Bull have been less successful than Ferrari during the hybrid era. Why would Ferrari want him?
    Wolff - that's your opinion of Wolff being based in Italy might be more convenient for him. IMO, I doubt it.

    Horner - as TP, he's better than what Ferrari, 3 team principals since the hrbrid era, has had. RedBull as a whole is ONLY handicapped by the engine which is why Mercedes and Ferrari DON'T sell them theirs. Had RedBull had a Ferrari or Mercedes engine since the hybrid era, then the WDC and WCC titles would be different.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Right...because Ferrari grows money on trees
    Agnelli, Philip Morris, $100 million in historic money, Sponsors.....so yeah.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Do you mean the road cars?

    Which wind tunnel would be used for the F1 cars? What happens to all the facilities in the Maranello design office?
    F1 wind tunnel in Maranello along with CFD. Road cars would use same wind tunnel. Car production office would remain in Maranello. F1 design office in England.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    The Merc engines are designed and built in Northamptonshire.



    And Honda have won 0 championships since returning to F1
    It is my understanding, the V-6 portion of the F1 engine is built in Germany at AMG.

    Honda entered the turbo hybrid era in 2015 with ZERO help as an engine manufacturer. Since the end of 2019, they currently beat Ferrari, and Renault in hp AND going into 2020.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Wolff - that's your opinion of Wolff being based in Italy might be more convenient for him. IMO, I doubt it.
    So then please explain why it's more convenient for an Austrian with a home in Switzerland to be living in the UK?

    Horner - as TP, he's better than what Ferrari, 3 team principals since the hrbrid era, has had.
    Then why have his results been worse?

    RedBull as a whole is ONLY handicapped by the engine which is why Mercedes and Ferrari DON'T sell them theirs. Had RedBull had a Ferrari or Mercedes engine since the hybrid era, then the WDC and WCC titles would be different.
    Pure conjecture and a very convenient excuse for Red Bull.

    Let me ask you this - what do you think is holding back Ferrari this season - the chassis or the engine?

    Agnelli, Philip Morris, $100 million in historic money, Sponsors.....so yeah.
    These are all businesses. They won't throw money around unless there's a benefit and a potential return on investment.

    There's also the incoming budget cap to contend with.

    F1 wind tunnel in Maranello along with CFD. Road cars would use same wind tunnel. Car production office would remain in Maranello. F1 design office in England.
    Design office in England but wind tunnel and CFD in Maranello?

    Anyone working in the design office would have to spend at least half their time in Maranello!

    It is my understanding, the V-6 portion of the F1 engine is built in Germany at AMG.
    It's built in Brixworth.

    Honda entered the turbo hybrid era in 2015 with ZERO help as an engine manufacturer. Since the end of 2019, they currently beat Ferrari, and Renault in hp AND going into 2020.
    Honda works team have finished behind Ferrari works team every season for the last 20 years. They also have 0 points so far this season. Nice try!

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    Quote Originally Posted by brawnydog View Post
    I totally agree. Da Costa was a great designer as we can see the long lasting effects of his designs at Mercedes. Ferrari’s big mistake was to fire him. That was Di Montezemolo’s big blunder. Who can name the chief designer at Ferrari today. I can’t. Is it Simone Resta? I also feel that the death of Marchionne is having its effects now. The team was on the rise under him and now it’s hitting some tough times. But Mercedes was not great either during the V10 era. F1 does go in cycles and when the right team gels it will be unstoppable. So, should we say Ferrari is a horrible team? Absolutely not. They’ve been top three for most years since their dominance. So, why are they so heavily criticized? When they don’t win the championship, they blame the team being Italian. The team was 90% Italian during the Brawn days and were based 100% in Italy. But don’t forget we also had the best driver of all time. Let’s be patient. They have the right driver now. Just my opinion.
    Agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    So then please explain why it's more convenient for an Austrian with a home in Switzerland to be living in the UK?
    Susie Wolff


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Then why have his results been worse?
    Renualt engine since the start of 2014....unreliable and low in hp. Since the move to Honda, results have gotten better. Max beat both Ferrari drivers last year with the Honda PU. Albon was a rookie last year with RedBull.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Pure conjecture and a very convenient excuse for Red Bull.

    It's not an excuse....it's merely the truth. Not bad for an energy drink company whom was the only company to start with 2 F1 teams since their start into F1.....but's that's your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Let me ask you this - what do you think is holding back Ferrari this season - the chassis or the engine?
    The eero and the engine is holding back the SF1000 this season.....but mainly the engine. New aero package to arrive this weekend.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    These are all businesses. They won't throw money around unless there's a benefit and a potential return on investment.

    There's also the incoming budget cap to contend with.

    Understood. Business's or sponsors come and go with Ferrari of the likes of Santandar, WeiChai, Bridgestone, and others.

    Understood on the budget cap.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Design office in England but wind tunnel and CFD in Maranello?

    Anyone working in the design office would have to spend at least half their time in Maranello!
    Communications and technology have come a long way.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Honda works team have finished behind Ferrari works team every season for the last 20 years. They also have 0 points so far this season. Nice try!
    Honda is not a works team this season but an engine supplier. They've progressed alot faster than Ferrari in this Turbo Hybrid era...especially when they switched from Mclaren to Toro Rosso and then to RedBull.

    Again, Max beat both Ferrari's last year. This year look's promising for the RedBull team.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Susie Wolff
    Has Susie Wolff stated anywhere that she's unwilling to relocate to Italy?

    Her job is based in Monaco, so why would her husband's job need to be based in the UK?

    Renualt engine since the start of 2014....unreliable and low in hp. Since the move to Honda, results have gotten better. Max beat both Ferrari drivers last year with the Honda PU. Albon was a rookie last year with RedBull.
    They still only won 3 races last year (1 less than the year before with a Renault PU). They are still way off Mercedes this year.

    It's not an excuse....it's merely the truth. Not bad for an energy drink company whom was the only company to start with 2 F1 teams since their start into F1.....but's that's your opinion.
    The truth is they've been worse than Ferrari in the hybrid era. Why are you so sure Horner will deliver results for Ferrari?

    The eero and the engine is holding back the SF1000 this season.....but mainly the engine. New aero package to arrive this weekend.
    So if the engine is what's holding the team back, what's the benefit of moving the design office to the UK? The engine will still be designed and manufactured in Italy by the same people who are currently doing this!

    Communications and technology have come a long way.
    For a highly technical job, it is still very inefficient and cumbersome to have to discuss these kinds of issues over the phone or through screen sharing and emails.

    Honda is not a works team this season but an engine supplier. They've progressed alot faster than Ferrari in this Turbo Hybrid era...especially when they switched from Mclaren to Toro Rosso and then to RedBull.

    Again, Max beat both Ferrari's last year. This year look's promising for the RedBull team.
    I'll wait until the beat Ferrari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Has Susie Wolff stated anywhere that she's unwilling to relocate to Italy?

    Her job is based in Monaco, so why would her husband's job need to be based in the UK?
    As of 2018, her job is based in Monaco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    They still only won 3 races last year (1 less than the year before with a Renault PU). They are still way off Mercedes this year.
    EVERYONE is way off Mercedes...since the start of this hybrid era. They are the standard. They are unrelenting and persistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    The truth is they've been worse than Ferrari in the hybrid era. Why are you so sure Horner will deliver results for Ferrari?
    It's not just Horner, but Newey and the whole team as well. I'm sure if Ferrari were based in England and had Horner as TP along with Newey...then Ferrari would have a winning chassis, engine, suspension and PU.

    Plus they have been consistent in staying as opposed to going thru TP's though the hybrid era. Change in TP's, 3 of them with Ferrari, is not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    So if the engine is what's holding the team back, what's the benefit of moving the design office to the UK? The engine will still be designed and manufactured in Italy by the same people who are currently doing this!
    It's worked for Mercedes and it's also worked for RedBull in the last year since the move to Honda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    For a highly technical job, it is still very inefficient and cumbersome to have to discuss these kinds of issues over the phone or through screen sharing and emails.
    During the COVID-19.....drastic times call fro drastic measures???

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    I'll wait until the beat Ferrari.
    Me too....could be this year as well.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Ferrari finally has a driver that we've locked up for 5 years, and he's going to be very good. Whatever the case with Binotto, he's also shown that he is a very good engineer... let him grow into this position. The last thing we need right now is to tear everything apart again and start over. With Sainz coming, we should have driver harmony. Let the guys at Ferrari work through this, keep the structure as is, hire more guys if needed. Don't tear everything apart again. That's what's hurt Ferrari the most the last 10 years.... we've shed so much talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    As of 2018, her job is based in Monaco.
    Right, so we've established that she's prepared to take a job on Monaco. So why would Susie Wolff prevent Toto Wolff taking a job in Maranello as head of Ferrari?

    EVERYONE is way off Mercedes...since the start of this hybrid era. They are the standard. They are unrelenting and persistent.
    Right, but Ferrari have been the next best team. Not Red Bull.



    It's not just Horner, but Newey and the whole team as well. I'm sure if Ferrari were based in England and had Horner as TP along with Newey...then Ferrari would have a winning chassis, engine, suspension and PU.
    Ferrari produced a better chassis than Red Bull (designed by Newey) in 2015, 2017 and 2018.

    Not sure how you think Horner and Newey would improve the engine. Neither of them are engine guys.

    Plus they have been consistent in staying as opposed to going thru TP's though the hybrid era. Change in TP's, 3 of them with Ferrari, is not good.
    That is due to the Ferrari and FIAT board. Relocating the design office to England won't change those internal politics.



    It's worked for Mercedes and it's also worked for RedBull in the last year since the move to Honda.
    My point is, if the Ferrari's problem lay with the engine, what's the benefit of moving the chassis design team to England? the engine will still be useless.

    Mercedes chassis and engine is based in Northamptonshire. Red Bull havn't won anything nor even fought for a title. They havn't proven anything.

    During the COVID-19.....drastic times call fro drastic measures???
    Most teams were under lockdown during Covid.

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    I honestly think the bonus that Ferrari gets for being in this sport since the beginning is hindering them... if they were at risk of not breaking even, they would be searching for the best employees and would put politics aside, or would sink.... I'm not a fan of handouts, it stifles competitiveness...
    Rest in Peace Leza, you were a true warrior...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    I honestly think the bonus that Ferrari gets for being in this sport since the beginning is hindering them... if they were at risk of not breaking even, they would be searching for the best employees and would put politics aside, or would sink.... I'm not a fan of handouts, it stifles competitiveness...
    What exactly are the politics within Ferrari?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    Ferrari finally has a driver that we've locked up for 5 years, and he's going to be very good. Whatever the case with Binotto, he's also shown that he is a very good engineer... let him grow into this position. The last thing we need right now is to tear everything apart again and start over. With Sainz coming, we should have driver harmony. Let the guys at Ferrari work through this, keep the structure as is, hire more guys if needed. Don't tear everything apart again. That's what's hurt Ferrari the most the last 10 years.... we've shed so much talent.
    Well said indeed! Just Binotto's saying 3 races before Ferrari gets it right winning wise should not have been said . The team and drivers need harmony in the form of incentive . Binotto needs only to do what he does and knows best. . Public relations is just not one of his good points, Neither the team or the fans want negativity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Would that please most if it meant we won titles?

    Does it matter to anyone that Ferrari are Italian and based in Italy, does it matter if they make their own engine?

    Would they even be Ferrari anymore if they did?
    I don't even know how to answer this.
    Ok, how about ... no?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Ferrari managed to get a car that got Charles to come in 2nd. " Made in Italy! "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Ferrari managed to get a car that got Charles to come in 2nd. " Made in Italy! "
    with a TON of luck.....and NOT on merit

    we're actually the 4-5th fastest team right now.....IT'S SAD, SO SAD.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariF60 View Post
    with a TON of luck.....and NOT on merit

    we're actually the 4-5th fastest team right now.....IT'S SAD, SO SAD.....
    6th fastest. Leclerc and Vettel were P10 and P11 in Q2. Ricciardo in Renault was ahead of both of them and Ocon in the other Renault messed up his lap which allowed one Ferrari to progress to Q3. So Mercedes, Red Bull, Racing Point, McLaren, Renault and then comes Ferrari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    6th fastest. Leclerc and Vettel were P10 and P11 in Q2. Ricciardo in Renault was ahead of both of them and Ocon in the other Renault messed up his lap which allowed one Ferrari to progress to Q3. So Mercedes, Red Bull, Racing Point, McLaren, Renault and then comes Ferrari.
    So Merc Bottas 1st, and then comes Ferrari 2nd !!! That's how the race and points ended. Charles even beat Lewis and his rocket. Lewis started ahead of every driver but for his team mate. Made in Italy!!! To bad the German again spun out of the pack or Ferrari would have had even more points. I hope Binotto isn't mad at Charles for coming in 2nd. before the 4th race""

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    I have been on record as saying i think Ferrari should hire the best talent, end of story.

    But think about this, Ferrari has a GREAT Italian engineer, Aldo Costa. And we know what happened there. Moving to England doesn't fix that.


    "When I watch a puppet show, I'm not watching the puppets...I'm trying to see who's pulling the strings."

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    In my way of seing this, The mercedes capital founded the mercedes F1 in England. Although it is sucessfull they should have show some pride in being german and at least build the motor in germany. Although it is sucessful it lacks "panache".

    I believe Ferrari must be strong in the political side of this. Mercedes got his starting advantage for the Hybrid era ( if 1b£ thrown at the development of the motor or sth else i don't care )

    I get the concerns for not having success, but with the exception of Aldo Costa, i believe that everyone that didn't want to stay and left would never stay for long and personnaly i don't mind it. I have an exception: the "new stepney" in this PU saga. DO we even found out who was the guy?

    Is he working for mercedes? Is he responsible for some idea that propelled the mercedes PU to be even better?

    And this is the main problem of having English or prone to move to england engineers. They will find everytime they want some team that would "accept" their privelege information. The reverse is difficult, it will be even harder when budget limits are in order.


    Ferrari has 1 year and a half to prepare 2022 because right now with all the limits to evolution on the car / motors we probably won't be better than 3rd. But 1st has to understand what is going on.


    There are competent people in every place, of course england has a better tradition with the constructors so it is easier to develop talent there, but i believe Ferrari can pull it off without the england prone personell.

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