Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567
Results 181 to 199 of 199

Thread: Has Mercedes been cheating? Possible corrupt FIA?

  1. #181
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by From Treviso View Post
    if that's the case, then you could do so the entire race. I stand by my post.
    enjaybel3 is correct. You can increase the efficiency of the engine, make more power, and in fact reduce amount of fuel required. This is usually measured by the BSFC on any generic engine dyno.

    Having said that, I do agree that you can only get so much power out a maximum amount of usable fuel. As teams like Mercedes strives to increase the thermal efficiency of their engine, I have to believe their improvements are measured in very small percentages. Since 2016 they have gained like 150 horsepower? Of course there is also the electric power. Theoretically they could see significant gains in "power" by how they deploy their electric energy, and it should cost them no more, or less fuel than by just using the ICE.

    To me, for Mercedes to have such a massive advantage all these years (except when Ferrari "cheated"), they would have to be either using more fuel than allowed, more peak electric power than allowed, or more energy per lap than is allowed.

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Melb, Australia
    Posts
    348
    we're not talking about engine efficiency, but just that moment of where it is creating more power. From the ICE itself, how can you suddenly increase performace over the normal running modes without more fuel supply? How do you suddenly increase an engine's efficiency? If it's just efficiency, then why not use that all the time?

    The talk about harnessing kinetic and heat energy and deploying it is another subject altogether.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    INDIANAPOLIS
    Posts
    182
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Because THEY are the FIA. They are telling Mercedes to have just 1 mode instead of several.
    Why did FIA allowed party mode in the first place?
    That's part of the reason they got rid of qualifying engines.
    Cost the other.
    .
    Changes aren't permanent........But change is.
    ALL LIVES MATTER... EVEN YOURS

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by JHAMMER View Post
    Why did FIA allowed party mode in the first place?
    That's part of the reason they got rid of qualifying engines.
    Cost the other.
    Teams have been using qualifying modes for decades. Even the naturally aspirated engines had them with different engine map settings or higher RPM's if applicable.

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by From Treviso View Post
    we're not talking about engine efficiency, but just that moment of where it is creating more power. From the ICE itself, how can you suddenly increase performace over the normal running modes without more fuel supply? How do you suddenly increase an engine's efficiency? If it's just efficiency, then why not use that all the time?

    The talk about harnessing kinetic and heat energy and deploying it is another subject altogether.
    most of the "party mode" comes from the electric power as that mode doesn't do much harvesting, instead it's to deliver max power and drain the battery. This wouldn't use more fuel.

    In race and Q1 a team like Mercedes can reduce the turbo boost and save fuel and put less strain on the engine. Who's to say their max boost setting only uses 100 kg/hr of fuel. I just think it's tough to believe that Mercedes can make so much more power over their competition without using more fuel.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    towradgi beach
    Posts
    1,352
    Never ever should any form of power mode party mode or Hamilton mode ever been allowed in this already confused messed up sport.There are to many drop kicks on the outside that have influenced the fia for the past number of years.Its time the fia clawed back power and punted these side kicks permanently.Fi should be pure no gimmicks or tricks if you want them go and join a circus and leave f1 permanently.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Godric's Hollow
    Posts
    6,083
    The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

    Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

    Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.
    @10:28 they talk about party mode, stating it's more to do with how they use the electric power. No doubt the ICE's are turned to the max though.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwwUOYTbyfs&t=658s

    I think Red Bull are good at Mexico because of the efficiency of their aerodynamics. It's not about Honda since they were very strong in 2015 and 2016, and won in 2017 and 2018. All with Renault Power.

  9. #189
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Lithuania
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

    Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.
    RBR were good in Mexico with Renault as well.

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,585
    Mexico is high altitude which means less dense air getting into the engine. It makes more efficient engines lose more power than less efficient ones. Not so much an effect with turbos.

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    7,482
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    Not so much an effect with turbos.
    Less dense air not having an effect on turbo's??? ummmm, yes it does.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Less dense air not having an effect on turbo's??? ummmm, yes it does.
    I think he is saying boosted engines don't get affected by altitude as much as naturally aspirated engines, which is true.

  13. #193
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    7,482
    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    I think he is saying boosted engines don't get affected by altitude as much as naturally aspirated engines, which is true.
    So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,585
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?
    No. But because the air is compressed by the turbo, they don't necessarily lose as much power as a NA engine would that relies on engine vacuum and some ram air effect to fill its cylinders.

  15. #195
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    7,482
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    No. .
    k....
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  16. #196
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?
    I didn't say that it doesn't lose power, and neither did Silent Bob. We are saying it doesn't have the same % of loss power as naturally aspirated engines.

  17. #197
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Corpus Christi Tx
    Posts
    7,482
    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    I didn't say that it doesn't lose power, and neither did Silent Bob. We are saying it doesn't have the same % of loss power as naturally aspirated engines.
    copy that.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  18. #198
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Diamond Head
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by From Treviso View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by enjaybel3 View Post
    Not technically correct. You could increase the % of energy released from the same amount fuel. Way easier said than done, but technically possible because E and M are equivalent.
    if that's the case, then you could do so the entire race. I stand by my post.
    Technically we don't even begin to scratch the surface of releasing energy from matter. Our best achievements are in the nuclear arena where we have less than 1% success.
    To put this another way, in 100Kg of fuel from one F1 car, IF we could realize all that energy, you could run every car on the grid this year, non-stop, producing 1000HP for over 15,000 years. Now, if that seems a little hard to accept, then don't argue with me, take it up with Mr Einstein and his e=mc2
    Last edited by enjaybel3; 20th August 2020 at 02:29.

  19. #199
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,361
    Did anyone find it odd how Hamilton stormed passed other cars on the straight with very little effort, while Bottas couldn't even get close enough for an attempt?

    - Both Mercedes were pulling out into clean air to cool the engine, so it wasn't simply Bottas having issues.
    - Mercedes showed to be relatively slow in ultimate top speed, yet Hamilton was able have the entire straightline speed advantage over Kvyat after the first chicane, even with taking the outside longer line around.
    - Had no issues passing other Mercedes powered cars
    - Renault was very fast on the straights, but he had very little issues passing Ocon.

    One can't just say that Hamilton was using more battery energy at this point, as the other drivers would surely be using the most they could to defend. Plus for Hamilton to use this amount of extra energy EVERY single lap would result in him draining the batteries and suffering for several laps afterwards. That simply did not happen.

    With party mode's being gone, Hamilton would not have been allowed to turn the engine up.

    Laptime advantage I can understand, but not the sudden straightline advantage that didn't exist all day, and it was like Bottas had a completely different engine/car.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •