Has Mercedes been cheating? Possible corrupt FIA?

[paolo lalli]

When the FIA punished Ferrari they punished formula1.

[tifosi1993]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

[stefa]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

As I was witness of Ferrari doing in F1 since early 80's, and also successful period with Michael, I can tell you that only in 2004 Ferrari was so dominant over the others, but in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003 it was real battle with McLaren, BMW,... And on top of it Ferrari DID NOT had two years head start on POWER UNIT, as it is called nowadays, over others!

[Greig]

2002 Michael finished no lower than 3rd and won the title in record time, there was no battle

[stefa]

2002 Michael finished no lower than 3rd and won the title in record time, there was no battle

That is still 2 out of 5. And how many LH won out of what?

[FerrariF60]

That is still 2 out of 5. And how many LH won out of what?

Exactly, Lewis has had absolutely NO competition in the latest years....only comp he had was Nico 14-16....that’s it
The new butler, i mean teammate is only there to protect him/ wing man....so he gets the WDC at the end of the year IF Merc were to have some real competition like they had in 18 and 19....now he’s got 2 yeasy WDCs coming his way thanks to the MIA forcing us to redesign our engine...which is now a donkey....who knows when we’ll get our Stallion back

[Submanf1]

Exactly, Lewis has had absolutely NO competition in the latest years....only comp he had was Nico 14-16....that’s it
The new butler, i mean teammate is only there to protect him/ wing man....so he gets the WDC at the end of the year IF Merc were to have some real competition like they had in 18 and 19....now he’s got 2 yeasy WDCs coming his way thanks to the MIA forcing us to redesign our engine...which is now a donkey....who knows when we’ll get our Stallion back

Before the hybrid era Hamilton averaged about 3 wins a season. Sometimes he had an equal best car IMHO, like 2007, 2008, and 2012 and sometimes he had an average car like 2009 and 2013. But he always had to battle for wins against other teams. Since the hybrid era it’s realistically been in an internal battle against his team mate only which he has won apart from against Rosberg in 2016.

However, his average wins a year have gone from around 3 to almost 11. That shows the clear dominance of Mercedes in this era. Even Vettel with Red Bull only averaged around 8 wins a year from 2009-2013.

[paolo lalli]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

[jgonzalesm6]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

Agreed.

The only difference regarding the engines was in 2000s there was unlimited testing.....so pretty fair for everyone back then....plus the V10 engine layout was pretty fair as well.

All the way up to 2013 in the V8 w/KERS era as well.

This turbo hybrid era is littered with tokens and engine freezes.....not to mention Mercedes had a jump on this turbo hybrid era....pretty much garaunteeing Mercedes dominance.

This turbo hybrid era in F1 is a completely different animal. It really caught Ferrari and Renault by surprise...being down 100hp or more from the get go. That's mega in F1.

[Silent Bob]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

However the fact that Merc has done so well might be also because they've had some help. Can't argue the fact this formula was taylor made for them. Can't argue the fact the token system pretty much handed them 2-3 championships.
I'd really like it to be known if the merc IC and battery system has as many sensors on it as ferrari's does. Overall I think what gets to most of us is the seemingly passive atttitude the FIA has towards this dominance and how wolfe seems to be able to dictate how things happen. Even Marko is musing how the FIA doesn't seem bothered about Mercs dominance when they were very quick to hamper Ferrari and Red Bull.

[wisepie]

Binotto says there are still possibilities to improve the SF1000, but without an engine upgrade that isn't going to help any of the Ferrari-powered teams. I am actually surprised that someone like Ross Brawn hasn't admitted that 3 teams out of 10 are seriously compromised by this state of affairs, in the interest of the sport something could and should be done. I don't care how many WDCs HAM may eventually achieve, he has had little competition in the hybrid era, and most of that came from Seb/Charles and Ferrari, apart from Rosberg's championship year.

[SS454]

Ferrari won in 2000, but was not dominant. Was one of the most competitive season's against McLaren

Ferrari dominated 2001 with a car that was about 0.4 seconds faster than McLaren and Williams in Qualifying, and about 0.260 faster in the Race.

Ferrari dominated 2002 with a car that was 0.236s faster than Williams in Qualifying, but was 0.75 seconds faster in the race. A lot of that swing comes from Michelin being a great qualifying tire, but couldn't maintain it's grip over the run.

Ferrari had 1 year of a massively dominant car, and the rules were changed for 2003.

In 2004 Ferrari once again had a massively dominant car, but couldn't clean sweep poles because of the rule to qualify with fuel. They still held a 0.4s advantage in Qual, and 0.785s advantage in the race.

From 2002 to 2004, Ferrari kept going towards shorter stints with softer tires, 2005 rule changes ruined that with a huge advantage going to the 7 big Michelin teams.

Good teams will always come to the front, just as with the salary cap, I expect Mercedes still to be the team to beat as they have the best team by far. But with engine freezes, token system, an early development to the extremely complex Hybrid PU's. Formula 1/FIA has protected the dominance of Mercedes.

If Formula 1/FIA is corrupt, I think it's reasonable to assume Ferrari did have some help along the way. Bernie Echellstone sure praised Schumacher openly. The mass damper being banned on Renault, that was sure strange being banned as a moveable aerodynamic device. Ferrari was accused of a flexable floor on the F2004, but was never proven. Ross Brawn and Jean Todt apparently had connections within the Formula 1/FIA crowd, given their current roles.

Regardless of that, Ferrari was able to battle through many changes designed to shake up the results in F1 and specifically prevent domination. Other teams had open testing, and much more freedom to design and innovate. Perhaps Ferrari's biggest advantage was their relationship with Bridgestone.

Today's F1 the engine is restricted in fuel flow, the electric motor can only produce up to 160 horsepower, can only deliver so much electric energy per lap, there are minimum weights over the overall engine, as well as internally.

Today's gearboxes are pre selected for gearing, so big budget teams can't change gears any way they want for every season for every grand prix.

Today's tires are a single manufacturer, with every team given the same 3 different compounds.

There are tighter restrictions in aerodynamics, most of the freedom is in the bargeboard area.

Today's rules should have made a tighter field. A team can easily still dominate with a 3 tenths advantage when they are as good as Mercedes is, but when we are talking 0.75-1 second a lap, it's not even the same league anymore. If Mercedes wasn't around during the hybrid era, it would have been extremely exciting.

[evo_spook]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

Hard to take you seriously

[tifosi1993]

However the fact that Merc has done so well might be also because they've had some help. Can't argue the fact this formula was taylor made for them. Can't argue the fact the token system pretty much handed them 2-3 championships.
I'd really like it to be known if the merc IC and battery system has as many sensors on it as ferrari's does. Overall I think what gets to most of us is the seemingly passive atttitude the FIA has towards this dominance and how wolfe seems to be able to dictate how things happen. Even Marko is musing how the FIA doesn't seem bothered about Mercs dominance when they were very quick to hamper Ferrari and Red Bull.

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

And I don't care about Marko or his opinions. He says lot of things, but they hardly worth any value. I can't blame Mercedes for doing their job properly, they also had the best engine in the previous V8 era, so there's nothing strange about Mercedes PU being the current best. It's up to Ferrari and rest to do their job properly, rather than wasting millions of money and valuable resources every year.

[paolo lalli]

All of f1 is a joke a complete circus taking it in a serious stride is of non benefits.To many clowns to many jugglers and magicians so why bother.I loved the circus as a child but never took it seriously great for a laugh.Just like the current state of f1.There are to many actors in the f1 ring top.Ring leaders mercedes centre stage totto wolf main acts Lewis and bottas majority ticket holders the fia.The rest of the tickets held by try heads and no hoppers enjoy the show the mercedes show ladies and gentleman.Oh the food and novelty stands are owned by todd and Brawn.yes a circus indeed.

[The Hajj]

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

I agree with your premise but is it realistic to believe Ferrari could have stopped the changes, that in my opinion, have ruined Formula 1? I recall many people on this forum were in full support of hybrid engines, testing limitations, budget limitations, refueling bans, tire controls, etc. There were a few members, myself included, who felt the shift towards a "more equal" Utopian version of Formula 1 racing would lead to the eventual ruination of the sport, but there simply was not enough resistance by the teams, corporate sponsors, and the money folks to stem the tide. In my mind, Ferrari only had two options; Shut up and play by the new King's rules, or pack your toys and go home.

[alfaromeo]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

[330 p4]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

Very plausible, engine changes that had to be made were probably finalised late 2019 early 2020. A base engine was produced with development to get a proper version in during the season at some point (albeit too late and after much pain) but COV19 happened, engine fixed for the season. I bet Ferrari already have a spec 2 engine that would make a big difference but it cannot be brought in (cost savings....how...they have spent money on it and will never race). By the time 2021 starts they may well have progressed through 3 or 4 different specs that never raced. As engines are fixed for all (bet Merc can upgrade their engine) good to see if any gap can be closed via chassis development as there is likely a huge wedge of extra performance we will never see from engine developments stuck on the test bench never to see the light of day.

[jgonzalesm6]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

I'll have to see it first before I believe it.

[paolo lalli]

May be that's why the rival teams wanted to know Ferrari secrets they are probably on the 2021 engine and Ferrari might just have the jump start on there rivals.

[Smintlemon]

A current article from the AmuS.It is unbelievable with which criminal energy Mercedes and FIA lie and cheat here.Here is the Excerpt:Brake vents on the tableThe verdict in the brake ventilation dispute between Racing Point and Renault is expected this week. As has become known, Racing Point had the brake covers of the 2019 Mercedes as a template in the house. And the FIA ​​knew about it.Formula 1 is eagerly awaiting the verdict of the stewards in the Renault case against Racing Point. Renault had protested the brake vents on the two Racing Point RP20s in the last three races. According to Renault, the said components were copied with unauthorized outside help.

[Brembo]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

Button comfortably did beat Lewis for sure! One WDC in 17 yrs. in F-1. Nico also could match Lewis , 1 WDC in 10 yrs. Lewis in 12 yrs. oh well! It's the car!! Like you so well said, talent comes in all colors.

[Silent Bob]

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

And I don't care about Marko or his opinions. He says lot of things, but they hardly worth any value. I can't blame Mercedes for doing their job properly, they also had the best engine in the previous V8 era, so there's nothing strange about Mercedes PU being the current best. It's up to Ferrari and rest to do their job properly, rather than wasting millions of money and valuable resources every year.

Just because decisions are made unanimously doesn't mean all cars or teams are treated equally. If Marko is questioning how Merc could update their engine through a lockdown, (Ferrari questioned it as well), then why isn't it being investigated? If decisions are made because a team is threatening to withdraw from the sport and it would leave the sport in disarray, then teams still might agree to terms that aren't favorable. or if you believe that teams are on a pretty equal footing you might agree to lock in rules... until one team springs a surprise.
You may not care what Marko says, but doesn't mean what he says isn't sometimes valid. So you can disregard him but I bet he knows a bit about what's going on.

[tifosi1993]

Just because decisions are made unanimously doesn't mean all cars or teams are treated equally. If Marko is questioning how Merc could update their engine through a lockdown, (Ferrari questioned it as well), then why isn't it being investigated? If decisions are made because a team is threatening to withdraw from the sport and it would leave the sport in disarray, then teams still might agree to terms that aren't favorable. or if you believe that teams are on a pretty equal footing you might agree to lock in rules... until one team springs a surprise.
You may not care what Marko says, but doesn't mean what he says isn't sometimes valid. So you can disregard him but I bet he knows a bit about what's going on.

The only thing Marko is good at is destroying a young drivers career. And Marko has been saying lots of things, like how they had the best winter of all and how they gonna challenge Mercedes....as I said whatever Marko says hardly worth any value. But if his words make you happy and give you conviction of Mercedes being cheats, then whatever. I'm not here to change peoples mind.

And as I've said before, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that Ferrari is spending millions of millions of money every year while knowing pretty well that they are getting ****** by the FIA and Mercedes. Words are cheap. Show us the evidence of FIA favoring Mercedes and vice versa, and it has to be absolute proof. But just like the flat earther can't provide the evidence of earth being flat, you can't either. It's nothing but bitter rants.

[SS454]

The only thing Marko is good at is destroying a young drivers career. And Marko has been saying lots of things, like how they had the best winter of all and how they gonna challenge Mercedes....as I said whatever Marko says hardly worth any value. But if his words make you happy and give you conviction of Mercedes being cheats, then whatever. I'm not here to change peoples mind.

And as I've said before, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that Ferrari is spending millions of millions of money every year while knowing pretty well that they are getting ****** by the FIA and Mercedes. Words are cheap. Show us the evidence of FIA favoring Mercedes and vice versa, and it has to be absolute proof. But just like the flat earther can't provide the evidence of earth being flat, you can't either. It's nothing but bitter rants.

Did this happen or not?

https://f1i.com/news/299667-pirelli-...e-demands.html

What about the FIA telling Mercedes how to make DAS legal, despite it being a moveable aerodynamic device and goes against parcferme regulations?

What about 2019 Canadian GP. Vettel gets win robbed of him, and Hamilton does the same thing in 2016 and gets no penalty?
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/...did-in-canada/

[Ferrari312T4]

I think if Ferrari exploited a grey area in the engine, and if Ferrari pointed out more grey areas within the engine which they couldn't get to due to the token system, then the FIA should have investigated all, Merc, Renault and Honda. I am not sure, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't it so that the FIA can only investigate when a protest has been filed or evidence has been provided. Unless someone knows if Merc is doing this and starts chatting. We did something that made it go like a rocket on the straights. It could be that Merc has something that's better hidden. But the FIA can't do anything about it. So better freeze further development on the engine they thought. Because either way a clipped Ferrari and 'honest'Honda and Renault are not going to compete. Why did Ferrari offer them to help the FIA to smarten up on grey areas within engines? It's Ferrari who probably said, Ok we did something you ruled against but we suspect others have discovered grey areas as well. It's Ferrari who could have said, if you don't want this happening, you should invest in education and knowledge about possible ways to exploit those areas. Know how to detect it even before teams discover it. But it might be that Mercedes has been honest..but I doubt it.

[458 Italia]

I think if Ferrari exploited a grey area in the engine, and if Ferrari pointed out more grey areas within the engine which they couldn't get to due to the token system, then the FIA should have investigated all, Merc, Renault and Honda. I am not sure, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't it so that the FIA can only investigate when a protest has been filed or evidence has been provided. Unless someone knows if Merc is doing this and starts chatting. We did something that made it go like a rocket on the straights. It could be that Merc has something that's better hidden. But the FIA can't do anything about it. So better freeze further development on the engine they thought. Because either way a clipped Ferrari and 'honest'Honda and Renault are not going to compete. Why did Ferrari offer them to help the FIA to smarten up on grey areas within engines? It's Ferrari who probably said, Ok we did something you ruled against but we suspect others have discovered grey areas as well. It's Ferrari who could have said, if you don't want this happening, you should invest in education and knowledge about possible ways to exploit those areas. Know how to detect it even before teams discover it. But it might be that Mercedes has been honest..but I doubt it.

I think the main "problem" was the fact Ferrari were able to stay in front even when merc had (the still ridiculous IMO) DRS enabled. I guess if there wasn't a "formal protest" wolf and probably the likes of horner bent the FIA's ear and got them to investigate.

[tifosi1993]

Did this happen or not?

https://f1i.com/news/299667-pirelli-...e-demands.html

Vettel also agreed with the tyre change, a simple internet search from your part would've been enough. But it doesn't fit your narrative, so that's why you didn't post his comments.

What about the FIA telling Mercedes how to make DAS legal, despite it being a moveable aerodynamic device and goes against parcferme regulations?

LOL, "moveable aerodynamic device". DAS is mostly used for influencing the camber, or should I say, it changes the front wheel alignment. It's not changing the aero load.

What about 2019 Canadian GP. Vettel gets win robbed of him, and Hamilton does the same thing in 2016 and gets no penalty?
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/...did-in-canada/

And? Joining the track like a madman will cost you, there was nothing wrong with that penalty. Vettel also did the same in Monza, joining the track like an utter tool and putting other drivers under dangerous situation.

Or maybe the FIA has some kind of remote control device, that forced Vettel to go offtrack!

Because Vettel seems to always go offtrack, or spins, or chases when he battles with Hamilton.

[SS454]

Vettel agreeing after the change doesn't change the fact that it was Mercedes that demanded it and got what they wanted. So it fits the facts just fine.

Changing of the alignment has a small effect on ride height. Red Bull even sited it. But you didn't ignore that it directly changes the car's mechanical setup during the race which is against parcferme rules.

Joining the track like a mad man? What was he supposed to do, stop on the grass? He joined as clean as he good, and barely impeded Hamilton. A thousand times a car has rejoined the track and another car had to adjust his line, lift off the throttle or brake... and penalties aren't regularly given. His rejoin at Monza was far far different as he went from a complete stop and joined the track at a very slow speed virtually 90 degrees to oncoming traffic.

So far you have kept saying Vettel sucks and Ferrari to any discussion of about possible cheating or favoritism. Is it your position to suggest that only Ferrari or EVERYONE in F1 are stupid, make plenty of mistakes, and just are incapable of being inventive of new designs except for the people that work at Mercedes?

[tifosi1993]

There was no "demand", there was a request and after going through thousands of data, Pirelli also reached the same conclusion. And guess what, Vettel agreed and was happy with decision, according to him it would have been worse, hand't Pirelli changed the tyre constructions. And it didn't affect Ferrari one bit. So yeah, doesn't fit your narrative.

And? ride height changes all the time, nothing stays static in a moving object, especially something as fast as a F1 car. And define the mechanical setup, and do tell me, what part of the mechanical setup does the DAS influence. And since Red Bull and Markos words mean so much to you, maybe you should contact them, since you've got extensive knowledge regarding the DAS, more than anyone in F1 community it seems.

Again, may you should watch the Canadian GP again and refresh your memory a bit. He did joined the track on dangerous manner, there was no two ways about it. Just like he did in Monza, just because you don't/can't accept, it doesn't matter one bit. He got the penalty. And guess what, there was no appeal from Ferrari regarding Vettel's penalty.

You clearly like Vettel and Red Bull, probably more than Ferrari it seems. So why don't take your false crusade elsewhere. Some extremely vocal but loud minorities accused Ferrari of cheating back in 2000's, which was nothing but laughable. It's the same with your posts, nothing but angry rants and laughable conspiracy theories, and full of bitterness.