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Thread: Value of a F1 drivers title over the last decade

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    Value of a F1 drivers title over the last decade

    In the stale state of F1, how much value should one place in the world driver title?

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    The best driver/car combo is winning titles. Just like any other generation of F1. Don't forget that it wasn't too long ago that we heard the calls of the FIA standing for "Ferrari International Assistance" during the reign of Michael, Brawn and Todt.

    We should celebrate champions who win and excel at their craft constantly and show complete control and consistency. Lewis has done that just like Michael did.

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    You described Lewis 100% He excels and has complete control as a driver and the records will show it. Admiring a great driver does not take away from having a favorite team and hoping for the best results for your favorite team.

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    Longer season
    DRS
    Testing banned
    Everyone on the same tyres
    More reliable cars
    Fewer gravel traps
    Bad wets so that rain often equals red flag

    The odds of someone winning the championship not in the best car nowadays are slim to none. It's not happened since 2005 and I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Had Vettel magically made the leap to Mercedes for 2014 with Hammy taking his place in the navy blue car he'd be approaching double figures at this point even though he's far from an all-time great. Anyone except the numbnuts on British TV who deluded themselves into the 2017 and 2018 grey rocketships being Minardis know that.
    Last edited by Tifoso Svedese; 19th August 2020 at 13:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Longer season
    DRS
    Testing banned
    Everyone on the same tyres
    More reliable cars
    Fewer gravel traps
    Bad wets so that rain often equals red flag

    The odds of someone winning the championship not in the best car nowadays are slim to none. It's not happened since 2005 and I don't think it's happened anytime soon. Had Vettel magically made the leap to Mercedes for 2014 with Hammy taking his place in the navy blue car he'd be approaching double figures at this point even though he's far from an all-time great. Anyone except the numbnuts on British TV who deluded themselves into the 2017 and 2018 grey rocketships being Minardis know that.
    Exactly.
    Right now the car matters more than the driver. Or to put it in simple terms , put 3 drivers of the same calibre at the same cars, then you'll see who's the better.
    This is why you see Lulu always winning Bottas.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    How many times has F-1 had 3 teams with equally top cars in a season? Many a driver has won races in a not top car, but.... Merc is on top and Lewis is on top . Ferrari will be back!

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    The question in no way is trying to dilute the achievements or success of mercedes or redbull/renault over the last 10 years, as from an engineering point of view, they have smashed all the competition. One has to applaud their excellence and berate the absolute mediocrity of the competition. That said, the genius of the engineering side leaves little to no room to compliment or admire the drivers and their ability.

    To shine the light of day on it, Sebastian Vettel (later years known as Pastor Maldonado) was gifted incredible machines in his Red bull years. (The engineering of which far exceeded his talent as a racer) Should these drivers titles be held in any esteem at all?

    While Lewis (its pains greatly to write this - is best of the current crop and probably an all time great, someone that can drive a motorhome to a championship), but when he is put under incremental forms of pressure seems to become a little whining child, and loses it. The later years of his Mclaren relationship are an illustration of this an perhaps early mercedes years. I have no doubt, had mercedes put someone in the other car (or any competitor capable of challenging mercedes) able to mount pressure on Lewis psychologically, he would not be as successful.

    So, should we value these drivers titles when the skill, talent, racecraft of a driver are very rarely on display at all? when drivers race against one another but fail to actually compete and bring out their best and the best of the competition?

    (please be warned - this is an opinion and anything deemed as fact is purely the fault of the reader)

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    Senna did 65 poles in 162 appearances, Michael did 65 in 233 appearances, while Lewis with 256 appearances has 92 poles! The fastest drivers in F-1 : Senna,1st place , Michael 2nd, Lewis so far 3rd, and Max so far is 4th! Part of the qualifying is judged by how well they did , are doing; against their team mate. How fare is that if your team mate has to slow down and let you pass? I believe skill, talent and race craft was and is there among the top drivers with these records. The team should be praised for putting out a great winning car . A big time accomplishment with all the tech. that's available to all teams. When the race starts pole, 2, 3 & 4th place drivers are what determine the win. They for sure are competing at their best. There's always if not the win, that podium along with the points to look forward to!

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    Problem is for about 100 of those races, Hamilton only had to beat his team mate and for about 60 of those races, his team mate was a 2nd tier driver at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    Problem is for about 100 of those races, Hamilton only had to beat his team mate and for about 60 of those races, his team mate was a 2nd tier driver at best.
    So for about 100 of those races Lewis had only to beat his team mate , because his team mate beat every other driver. That means his team mate was 2nd tier only to Lewis. Now 2020, there's Max , along with Bottas for Lewis to try to win against. The wins if any will be a clear plus for Lewis' record. Lewis ahead of Bottas is legit; not in any 1,2 contract. I remember David Coulthard turning down Ferrari's offer to sign him on in 1996 because the contract was clearly stating him as the #2 driver.
    Last edited by Brembo; 27th August 2020 at 07:02.

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    Hamilton should never have won the 2008 WDC, which belonged to Felipe. Enough said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Hamilton should never have won the 2008 WDC, which belonged to Felipe. Enough said!
    Amen to that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Senna did 65 poles in 162 appearances, Michael did 65 in 233 appearances, while Lewis with 256 appearances has 92 poles! The fastest drivers in F-1 : Senna,1st place , Michael 2nd, Lewis so far 3rd, and Max so far is 4th! Part of the qualifying is judged by how well they did , are doing; against their team mate. How fare is that if your team mate has to slow down and let you pass? I believe skill, talent and race craft was and is there among the top drivers with these records. The team should be praised for putting out a great winning car . A big time accomplishment with all the tech. that's available to all teams. When the race starts pole, 2, 3 & 4th place drivers are what determine the win. They for sure are competing at their best. There's always if not the win, that podium along with the points to look forward to!
    Part of the rating has to do with opposition, part has to do with what car they were driving.
    And we need to remember that Lewis is driving a missile most of the time.
    So yes, he's definitely 3rd.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Part of the rating has to do with opposition, part has to do with what car they were driving.
    And we need to remember that Lewis is driving a missile most of the time.
    So yes, he's definitely 3rd.
    Now FF to 2020. Lewis is #1 fastest even with his team mate allowed to race him. Max is right up there too. Lewis can be considered an astronaut as well as a driver! It's a missile not a car he is in control of. I keep waiting and hoping for Ferrari and Charles to once again become part of the opposition now 2020!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Now FF to 2020. Lewis is #1 fastest even with his team mate allowed to race him. Max is right up there too. Lewis can be considered an astronaut as well as a driver! It's a missile not a car he is in control of. I keep waiting and hoping for Ferrari and Charles to once again become part of the opposition now 2020!
    Lewis is faster to a second class team mate.


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    [QUOTE=aroutis;1032185]Lewis is faster to a second class team mate.

    I agree Lewis is faster than his team mate and everyone else on the track. Charles 17th ,Seb 20th , Bottas 5th; practice 3. If Bottas with 1 win so far is 2nd class what can we say for our Ferrari drivers and the rest? It's the correct tire choice and down force and Ferrari will be at least in the top 10 i Hope.

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    [QUOTE=Brembo;1032223]
    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Lewis is faster to a second class team mate.

    I agree Lewis is faster than his team mate and everyone else on the track. Charles 17th ,Seb 20th , Bottas 5th; practice 3. If Bottas with 1 win so far is 2nd class what can we say for our Ferrari drivers and the rest? It's the correct tire choice and down force and Ferrari will be at least in the top 10 i Hope.
    It is an easy answer.
    Give a monkey a missile and a wdc driver a horse.
    Even you can guess the answer. Even you.

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    [QUOTE=aroutis;1032226]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    It is an easy answer.
    Give a monkey a missile and a wdc driver a horse.
    Even you can guess the answer. Even you.

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    Aroutis, Just to clarify, who are you calling a monkey?

    Either way, I don't think it's right to dismiss Bottas if we aren't going to do the same with Rubens, who was contractually a #2 driver and literally had to give up wins and defer to Michael.

    Where does that comparison end for a driver that won a WDC? Are we now discounting that Webber or Fisichella (with Alonso) had any fighting talent?

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    [QUOTE=h3ro;1032245]
    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post

    Aroutis, Just to clarify, who are you calling a monkey?

    Either way, I don't think it's right to dismiss Bottas if we aren't going to do the same with Rubens, who was contractually a #2 driver and literally had to give up wins and defer to Michael.

    Where does that comparison end for a driver that won a WDC? Are we now discounting that Webber or Fisichella (with Alonso) had any fighting talent?
    I refer to a very well known quote that Lauda said. Look it up


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    [QUOTE=aroutis;1032258]
    Quote Originally Posted by h3ro View Post
    I refer to a very well known quote that Lauda said. Look it up


    Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Hamilton should never have won the 2008 WDC, which belonged to Felipe. Enough said!
    Hamilton won in a slightly upgraded version of the F2007. The McLarens should have been outright been disqualified from racing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC Fan View Post
    Hamilton won in a slightly upgraded version of the F2007. The McLarens should have been outright been disqualified from racing.
    Agreed.

    They received the biggest fine in sport history and even Ron Dennis was banned from F1 for life for what they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPZ View Post
    Agreed.

    They received the biggest fine in sport history and even Ron Dennis was banned from F1 for life for what they did.
    Ron Dennis was not banned for life.
    The fine was big but nothing compared to what McLaren should have had (ie. outright DQ and ban from F1 for 2 years.)
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Ron Dennis was not banned for life.
    The fine was big but nothing compared to what McLaren should have had (ie. outright DQ and ban from F1 for 2 years.)
    Thought he was banned?

    The punishment should have been harsher.

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    Depends on what YOUR perspective is of "value" in an F1 driver.

    Value is most attributed to technology in an F1 car. For example, drivers had MORE value in an F1 car ten years ago than say today's F1 driver....all due to technology. And ten years before that, drivers had more value and so on and so on. All because of the technology of the F1 car as it is constantly advancing or moving forward every decade.

    It all depends on the individual and "era" he or she has lived in of what value is in an F1 driver.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Depends on what YOUR perspective is of "value" in an F1 driver.

    Value is most attributed to technology in an F1 car. For example, drivers had MORE value in an F1 car ten years ago than say today's F1 driver....all due to technology. And ten years before that, drivers had more value and so on and so on. All because of the technology of the F1 car as it is constantly advancing or moving forward every decade.

    It all depends on the individual and "era" he or she has lived in of what value is in an F1 driver.
    Very well said. The drivers winning and successful in the new era cars are to be held with the same respect as the drivers in the past. Keeping up with technology is a major feat for a drver . Should Charles in his Ferrari be considered less a driver because he has a 2020 car with all the current technology? If only Pirelli tires would keep up with the cars performance ; things would be even better. When Gio crashed all I could think of was thank God for the Helos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Depends on what YOUR perspective is of "value" in an F1 driver.

    Value is most attributed to technology in an F1 car. For example, drivers had MORE value in an F1 car ten years ago than say today's F1 driver....all due to technology. And ten years before that, drivers had more value and so on and so on. All because of the technology of the F1 car as it is constantly advancing or moving forward every decade.

    It all depends on the individual and "era" he or she has lived in of what value is in an F1 driver.
    Exactly; the less number of driving aids, the more value goes to the drivers. Really simple.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Ferrari had the best cars in 2007 and 2008. Given how closely fought both championships were we came to learn later in the coming years that Kimi and Filipe are no where close in ability to Alonso. He wiped the floor with them. Kimi would never have beaten Alonso to the title in 2007 if he didn’t have the superior machinery.

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    I don't agree at all with the theory that it's all the car that makes the driver great. Imagine all the future young hopeful WDCs only recognized if they drive for a bottom of the list team. Unfortunately or is it fortunately that Charles' seat @ Ferrari now qualifies him as a true candidate for a true WDC? Bottas not being a top driver but in a top car at least allows 2nd place to be up for grabs. OK, Kimi was cursed in 2007 with a superior car! Seb"s disgraceful 4 WDCs in a superior car! Lewis!! He should be banned from any title wins !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonecrasher View Post
    Ferrari had the best cars in 2007 and 2008. Given how closely fought both championships were we came to learn later in the coming years that Kimi and Filipe are no where close in ability to Alonso. He wiped the floor with them. Kimi would never have beaten Alonso to the title in 2007 if he didn’t have the superior machinery.
    But Nando drove a car that was exactly identical in everything but the livery and engine (the Mercedes engine was negligibly less powerful but had bulletproof reliability). I think he is better than Kimi but that was greatly exaggerated in 2014 because Kimi had lost the motivation he had before winning the title and Felipe did not have enough confidence anymore. Alonso's persevering competitive nature is what kept him at the top and when Kimi too had a competitive mindset, he was nearly equal to him.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

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