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Thread: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio De Portugal 2020 - RACE

  1. #211
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    I think nobody rates Button or Nico as a legend, and Lewis lose to both, if nothing else, that should tell us, that Lewis is not GOAT.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    copy that.....I got it.

    Okay, Lewis won in 2008.

    Soooooo, what happened to Lewis between 2009 thru 2013. Did he win any WDC titles during those times IF he's so good??
    I have asked this question multiple times here.... no one answered
    Then I’ve came to conclusion like, there’s one section here who term him equal to MS or any.
    The same section hates one driver too,

    So it’s not point of wasting your time when you don’t get answers.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    I think nobody rates Button or Nico as a legend, and Lewis lose to both, if nothing else, that should tell us, that Lewis is not GOAT.
    this stat also shows if Leclerc/Max or DR in the same Merc car what results can we expect from Ham .

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    this stat also shows if Leclerc/Max or DR in the same Merc car what results can we expect from Ham .
    and even that MIGHTY BOTTAS beats him now and then, GOAT, lol.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    and even that MIGHTY BOTTAS beats him now and then, GOAT, lol.
    Yup ...!!

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    From Ross Brawn:

    It was another very strong performance from Charles and he continues to give Ferrari motivation for next year after what has been a very challenging campaign so far. The team will know that when they are able to give him a more competitive car, he will deliver the results.

    A driver can go two ways when faced with a difficult car. It can demotivate them, their performances start to drop away and it helps no one. It’s a double whammy. Or a driver can do what Charles has done and dig even deeper and find extra performance that helps subsidise the team when things aren’t so great.

    Through that process, when he does get car underneath him, he will be a stronger driver.

    I often felt with Michael, there were races he won which he should not have won because the car wasn’t good enough but he managed to find a way to win. And that is what makes a world champion.

    Lewis has demonstrated that. He’s got a great car now, but I recall him winning races when the car was not a top performer. And Charles is doing similar at Ferrari right now.
    When you impress someone like Ross Brawn and remanding him of Schumacher and Hamilton, the two most successful driver of all time, then you are certainly doing the right thing.

    The current predicament will help Charles in the future. He's on another level compared to last year, and he will continue to get better.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariF60 View Post
    Everyone around the world praises Shamilton like he’s God’s gift to F1 especially the English biased media who actually relates to him a the GOAT...when in fact he did quite average from 09-13....and especially 2011 when he got spanked by an average teammate all season long...yeah Button

    So to me he is NOT better than Michael no matter how many more wins he gets as he’s only managed that in that Merc rocket since 2014 while having absolutely no competition from any other team or teammate (other than Rosberg cause we all know that Botass is a clear butler and a #2) all this time
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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    From Ross Brawn:



    When you impress someone like Ross Brawn and remanding him of Schumacher and Hamilton, the two most successful driver of all time, then you are certainly doing the right thing.

    The current predicament will help Charles in the future. He's on another level compared to last year, and he will continue to get better.
    Agree with MS part.......not so much with Hamilton.

    Leclerc is a young kid dealing with a mid-field package car and extracting everything he can: 1.) While keeping all 4 wheels on track and 2) taking a defensive posture on track for his position. 3.) moving up in the points compared to his tream-mate.

    Lewis has never had to deal with a mid-field car or lower like Leclerc or Ricciardo whom I consider to be the top 5 on the grid currently....others are Max and Lewis and possibly Norris. Gasly is another possibility but he's iffy....RedBull then demoted to Alpha Tauri but has made significant gains. Kvyat needs to go along with Albon.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Agree with MS part.......not so much with Hamilton.

    Leclerc is a young kid dealing with a mid-field package car and extracting everything he can: 1.) While keeping all 4 wheels on track and 2) taking a defensive posture on track for his position. 3.) moving up in the points compared to his tream-mate.

    Lewis has never had to deal with a mid-field car or lower like Leclerc or Ricciardo whom I consider to be the top 5 on the grid currently....others are Max and Lewis and possibly Norris. Gasly is another possibility but he's iffy....RedBull then demoted to Alpha Tauri but has made significant gains. Kvyat needs to go along with Albon.

  10. #220
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    Some real revisionist history going on in here right now but I'm not going to get into that with you guys.

    I think, like Michael, Lewis is the greatest of his era.

    I think the term the we should start observing for these arguments is GOTE. Greatests of Their Era.

    That's it. It keeps the fragile ego's of some of the tifosi intact while allowing them to acknowledge that someone is really really great at what they do.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    The passion and loyalty toward Schumacher by some Ferrari fans is certainly admirable, there's nothing wrong with it. But there's also nothing wrong with by not having any particular feelings toward Schumacher either. After all, Schumacher had no problem joining Mercedes in 2010 and racing for them. And why would he? He never signed any blood pact with Ferrari, he never owed them undying loyalty. Ferrari created the perfect bubble around him, the right car, the right teammate and the right people, and Schumacher delivered. It's business after all, money and performance dictates the contract between the driver and the team, not emotional attachment.

    And it's always the same. The right car and the right team will always win, drivers don't matter match. F1 is machine dominated, only one car, the right car, can win the championship. Most of the time it doesn't matter who's is driving it. It was the same with Schumacher and every other past world champions, it is the same with Hamilton and it will be the same with the next world champion. But one has to be extremely lucky, enjoying dominant cars year after year is pretty rear.
    +100
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  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Answer is , we don't know and until we have lulu in a similar conditions championship, we'll not know.
    Thank you. 10/10. This is a very good answer. Many people on here don't get this. They keep saying MS is better than LH because of this and that and the other... The truth is, we don't know and we never will.
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  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariF60 View Post
    Everyone around the world praises Shamilton like he’s God’s gift to F1 especially the English biased media who actually relates to him a the GOAT...when in fact he did quite average from 09-13.... and especially 2011 when he got spanked by an average teammate all season long...yeah Button

    So to me he is NOT better than Michael no matter how many more wins he gets as he’s only managed that in that Merc rocket since 2014 while having absolutely no competition from any other team or teammate (other than Rosberg cause we all know that Botass is a clear butler and a #2) all this time
    Well that same Lewis spanked an average teammate by the name of Alonso in his rookie season.
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  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    From Ross Brawn:



    When you impress someone like Ross Brawn and remanding him of Schumacher and Hamilton, the two most successful driver of all time, then you are certainly doing the right thing.

    The current predicament will help Charles in the future. He's on another level compared to last year, and he will continue to get better.
    Ross Brawn here says LH hs done the same like MS, which is winning raves with inferior cars. I wonder where Ross Brawn gets such a ludicrous idea from. If only he was on this forum, then our experts here would have informed him that actually Lewis can't win with an inferior car.
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  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by h3ro View Post
    Some real revisionist history going on in here right now but I'm not going to get into that with you guys.

    I think, like Michael, Lewis is the greatest of his era.

    I think the term the we should start observing for these arguments is GOTE. Greatests of Their Era.

    That's it. It keeps the fragile ego's of some of the tifosi intact while allowing them to acknowledge that someone is really really great at what they do.
    I love this!
    +1
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  16. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    Thank you. 10/10. This is a very good answer. Many people on here don't get this. They keep saying MS is better than LH because of this and that and the other... The truth is, we don't know and we never will.
    Lewis hates to practice. He even said F1 has taken most of his life......duh.

    Lewis would'nt make it back in the Schumacher era. He's been handed a rocket-ship car with a rocke-ship team and the team pretty much does everything for him....all he has to do is drive and pick his battles as he laps most of the field half-way thru the race.

    Schumacher loves to practice and engineer the car.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again....it's like comparing analog to digital. Analog--> one has to do more work. Digital, just sit down and have wi-fi...i.e. a Rolex Daytona Chronograph tells time and gives splits while an Apple 12S or Galaxy Note 12 also tells time but does a whole lot more for the user.


    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    Well that same Lewis spanked an average teammate by the name of Alonso in his rookie season.
    Spanked is a bit harsh....Were not Lewis and Alonso equal in points at the end of season in 2007??? And that's because Ron Dennis favored Lewis more than Alonso, a 2x WDC, in 2007....which demoralized Alonso.

    Button beat Lewis as a team-mate.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  17. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by h3ro View Post
    Some real revisionist history going on in here right now but I'm not going to get into that with you guys.

    I think, like Michael, Lewis is the greatest of his era.

    I think the term the we should start observing for these arguments is GOTE. Greatests of Their Era.

    That's it. It keeps the fragile ego's of some of the tifosi intact while allowing them to acknowledge that someone is really really great at what they do.
    Fair enough
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  18. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by h3ro View Post
    Some real revisionist history going on in here right now but I'm not going to get into that with you guys.

    I think, like Michael, Lewis is the greatest of his era.

    I think the term the we should start observing for these arguments is GOTE. Greatests of Their Era.

    That's it. It keeps the fragile ego's of some of the tifosi intact while allowing them to acknowledge that someone is really really great at what they do.
    Most of us here are biased, and it's to be expected. But I never understood the undying loyalty and support some Ferrari fans have toward Schumacher. Yes, he's the greatest Ferrari driver. But his last F1 team wasn't Ferrari, it was Mercedes. If Schumacher had won races with Mercedes, I wouldn't have done anything to belittle his wins. It's the same with Hamilton, guy has won 92 races and on the verge of winning the 7th title, it's a crazy record.

    And Schumacher was failed to win any titles from 1996-1999, but won titles easily from 2000-2004, not because all of a sudden he became a super driver. But because Ferrari provided him the right car, the right pitwall and the right teammate, and he delivered. It's the same thing with Hamilton. Mercedes has provided him with the right car, team and teammate and he delivered, just like Schumacher.

    I think F1 fans put too much emphasis on driver and driving skills. F1 isn't motogp where a rider can put an average bike on pole. This is a machine dominated sport where the car is everything. As good as Charles or Max is, neither of them are going win titles with their current car. And as awful as Stroll or Albon is, both will be fighting for the WDC in the current Mercedes.

  19. #229
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    The English media have to other wise if there words are not politically correct or aligned a potential law suit will be knocking.Handle with care should be stamped on lewis Hamilton's forehead in gold to match his chains.

  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Most of us here are biased, and it's to be expected. But I never understood the undying loyalty and support some Ferrari fans have toward Schumacher. Yes, he's the greatest Ferrari driver. But his last F1 team wasn't Ferrari, it was Mercedes. If Schumacher had won races with Mercedes, I wouldn't have done anything to belittle his wins. It's the same with Hamilton, guy has won 92 races and on the verge of winning the 7th title, it's a crazy record.

    And Schumacher was failed to win any titles from 1996-1999, but won titles easily from 2000-2004, not because all of a sudden he became a super driver. But because Ferrari provided him the right car, the right pitwall and the right teammate, and he delivered. It's the same thing with Hamilton. Mercedes has provided him with the right car, team and teammate and he delivered, just like Schumacher.

    I think F1 fans put too much emphasis on driver and driving skills. F1 isn't motogp where a rider can put an average bike on pole. This is a machine dominated sport where the car is everything. As good as Charles or Max is, neither of them are going win titles with their current car. And as awful as Stroll or Albon is, both will be fighting for the WDC in the current Mercedes.
    I am tired of the Schumacher/Hamilton debate and am pleased that the record has now been broken so that we can all move on, we know that times are different now and how HAM managed to reach that record. We have all probably had our favourite drivers at Ferrari but if the car isn't underneath them, the championship is that much harder to achieve. You can imagine my absolute disbelief when HAM took the 2008 WDC from Felipe by 1pt, at that point Felipe had been driving his heart out all season with a competitive but not dominant car. Those were the days, and only Charles currently fills that void for this tifoso!

  21. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    I am tired of the Schumacher/Hamilton debate and am pleased that the record has now been broken so that we can all move on, we know that times are different now and how HAM managed to reach that record. We have all probably had our favourite drivers at Ferrari but if the car isn't underneath them, the championship is that much harder to achieve. You can imagine my absolute disbelief when HAM took the 2008 WDC from Felipe by 1pt, at that point Felipe had been driving his heart out all season with a competitive but not dominant car. Those were the days, and only Charles currently fills that void for this tifoso!
    Brazil 2008 last lap was one of the most depressing chapter for a Ferrari fan, so thanks for reminding!
    Felipe deserved that championship, that engine failure in Hungary and that disastrous pitstop in Singapore, he lost 20 points with those two incidents, without any faults of his own.

    And there wouldn't be any Sch-Ham debate if some Ferrari fan could gasp this simple face: records are made to be broken. Hamilton will become the most successful driver and nothing will change that. So let's concentrate on the present, Because we have bigger things to worry about than Schumacher's broken records.

  22. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Lewis hates to practice. He even said F1 has taken most of his life......duh.

    Lewis would'nt make it back in the Schumacher era. He's been handed a rocket-ship car with a rocke-ship team and the team pretty much does everything for him....all he has to do is drive and pick his battles as he laps most of the field half-way thru the race.

    Schumacher loves to practice and engineer the car.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again....it's like comparing analog to digital. Analog--> one has to do more work. Digital, just sit down and have wi-fi...i.e. a Rolex Daytona Chronograph tells time and gives splits while an Apple 12S or Galaxy Note 12 also tells time but does a whole lot more for the user.




    Spanked is a bit harsh....Were not Lewis and Alonso equal in points at the end of season in 2007??? And that's because Ron Dennis favored Lewis more than Alonso, a 2x WDC, in 2007....which demoralized Alonso.

    Button beat Lewis as a team-mate.

  23. #233
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    Button was hardly a terrible driver TBF, not sure why people use him as a reason to put down Lewis considering he was beaten 2-1 by Lewis anyway....getting beat to a title by Nico I could understand...
    Forza Ferrari

  24. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Brazil 2008 last lap was one of the most depressing chapter for a Ferrari fan, so thanks for reminding!
    Felipe deserved that championship, that engine failure in Hungary and that disastrous pitstop in Singapore, he lost 20 points with those two incidents, without any faults of his own.

    And there wouldn't be any Sch-Ham debate if some Ferrari fan could gasp this simple face: records are made to be broken. Hamilton will become the most successful driver and nothing will change that. So let's concentrate on the present, Because we have bigger things to worry about than Schumacher's broken records.

    Sure records are made to be broken but how they're broken matters. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that winning titles and races in a car that doesn't have any competition is the same as taking it to the wire every year. Schumacher didn't win in 97, 98 but he put up a great fight to make those years close against more dominant cars. The engine freezes that were put in place in 2014/5 and this year that has pretty much guaranteed Merc and their drivers wins. I think Hamilton is a great driver, unfortunately he hasn't had to prove it in less than competitive cars or against a top tier team mate while he's been at Merc. I think the best thing Ham can do for his career is either leave Merc after next year and drive for another team or let Merc give him a competitive team mate. It would erase any doubts about his abilities. Schumacher and Alonso became legends because of what they did with mediocre cars.... even now Max and Leclerc are doing the same. Sadly Ham has had it too easy... even seems to have to manufacture drama about his car sometimes to make it seem like he's working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    Well that same Lewis spanked an average teammate by the name of Alonso in his rookie season.
    I beg the differ mate....he clearly was favoriting by Ron Dennis back then...as seen in numerous races in 2007...if it wasn’t for that Alo most definitely would have won the WDC that year....and NO, I am not an Alo fanboy....lol

  26. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by h3ro View Post
    Some real revisionist history going on in here right now but I'm not going to get into that with you guys.

    I think, like Michael, Lewis is the greatest of his era.

    I think the term the we should start observing for these arguments is GOTE. Greatests of Their Era.

    That's it. It keeps the fragile ego's of some of the tifosi intact while allowing them to acknowledge that someone is really really great at what they do.
    Alonso is the best driver of that era. The 2005, 2010 and 2012 seasons and ending all the reputations of Massa and Räikkönen and the careers of Piquet, Button and Vandoorne should close any case regarding that. Signing a contract to race with Alonso without "we're racing Alonso Ron Dennis" as team boss, was basically signing your pension contract. Sadly for Alonso he burned too many bridges and was extremely unlucky otherwise he could've made it to seven and would've been a lot more deserving than the sham who did. It's so easy to see Alonso winning the 2017 and 2018 titles and maybe even fighting for 2019 (with his great defensive driving skills and for not fluffing the start in Japan or tolerating the crap coming from the pitwall) had he remained at Ferrari but he just went with his impulses instead.
    Last edited by Tifoso Svedese; 26th October 2020 at 21:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    And as awful as Stroll or Albon is, both will be fighting for the WDC in the current Mercedes.
    Now you took it a step too far mate

  28. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Now you took it a step too far mate
    No, not really....if he’d say Grojean would have won a WDC in that Merc or even multiple championships, that I would have considered taking it too far.....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    Now you took it a step too far mate
    No he's not, put a driver, ANY driver in that taxi and he'll fight for the WDC.
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Most of us here are biased, and it's to be expected. But I never understood the undying loyalty and support some Ferrari fans have toward Schumacher. Yes, he's the greatest Ferrari driver. But his last F1 team wasn't Ferrari, it was Mercedes. If Schumacher had won races with Mercedes, I wouldn't have done anything to belittle his wins. It's the same with Hamilton, guy has won 92 races and on the verge of winning the 7th title, it's a crazy record.

    And Schumacher was failed to win any titles from 1996-1999, but won titles easily from 2000-2004, not because all of a sudden he became a super driver. But because Ferrari provided him the right car, the right pitwall and the right teammate, and he delivered. It's the same thing with Hamilton. Mercedes has provided him with the right car, team and teammate and he delivered, just like Schumacher.

    I think F1 fans put too much emphasis on driver and driving skills. F1 isn't motogp where a rider can put an average bike on pole. This is a machine dominated sport where the car is everything. As good as Charles or Max is, neither of them are going win titles with their current car. And as awful as Stroll or Albon is, both will be fighting for the WDC in the current Mercedes.
    +1
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