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Thread: SF21 Challenger Thread

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE PASSION View Post
    Guys why are you comparing our pu with Mercs (or even Honda) .NOBODY said that now we are equal to them!!!! Our hybrid system is competitive and it gave us some characteristics that is helping us on track like good acceleration and better keeping the electrical energy deep into the straights before recharging phase!!!!!!
    On the ice part ,we are still behind so on total yes Merc is quite ahead but now we can fight a bit better and longer with them and not get passed straight away!!!!
    Because there is data and interpretation of data that suggests Ferrari are as fast as Mercedes or Honda on the straights or in laptime. I don't think it's realistic that Ferrari are now on par or close to those teams, but it's definitely a step in the right direction and the most important thing is does it give Ferrari an edge over McLaren now.

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE PASSION View Post
    Guys why are you comparing our pu with Mercs (or even Honda) .NOBODY said that now we are equal to them!!!! Our hybrid system is competitive and it gave us some characteristics that is helping us on track like good acceleration and better keeping the electrical energy deep into the straights before recharging phase!!!!!!
    On the ice part ,we are still behind so on total yes Merc is quite ahead but now we can fight a bit better and longer with them and not get passed straight away!!!!
    100% agree
    Also, I read somewhere Toto's statement about the 25HP lost by their PU3
    What does it mean :
    - The Mercedes ICE remain the most powerful of the grid (and in my opinion it is much more than the 20 CV that Binotto said by Monza)
    - Fortunately, this advantage decreases more than usual with the mileage (I still hope the same on PU4 if the problem is not solved)

    SF21 side:
    - They had to do the second stage of the ramp-up of the new PU in Turkey (ICE side, with full use of their new fuel and oil, for 12Hp claimed). They said they had improved the oil on the second GP this year so I'm a little surprised to hear them say to improve it again
    - They are improving their electrical systems a lot, with a whole new technology (ok, maybe just on par with their rivals I don't know)
    - This electrical improvement gives them much better electrical management
    - This helps the ECI on the energy management side, but also probably on the consumption side, ... and therefore also on the power supply thanks to the use of more efficient mapping, ... and the more the speed returns to more electric, the gains could themselves be cumulative
    - They could not take 100% of the advantages of this new electrical system (aerodynamics: normally less cooling necessary, miniaturized components, integration), but we have to count on the mass savings -> It is for 2022
    - Since they designed in 2019 a rocket unable to take a turn (remember Vasseur's pre-season testing comment), even with the huge correction worked on all the previous year, the SF21 is very sensitive to horsepower as they have to put the load on having a good working tire window -> so this power upgrade must be very helpful

    Overall what I'm seeing is that they didn't try so hard to improve the car in 2020 which was just a modified 2019 car, even though they were in a media storm (the pressure on them often destabilizes the team)
    Last year they first worked on correlation / track tools (and it works for the first time since it's the only way to develop a car)
    I think they have been devoting their thinking to the new regulations for years and that the covid has delayed its coming, whereas for 2020 they had bet on the renewal of the dragster of 2019 with a dominant engine to help a weak chassis.
    They stayed focused, in the storm, without sacking people, but updating tools, organization, processes
    Next year they will use a different PU philosophy than all manufacturers, it might be risky, but I think they can be right, they must have arguments
    For the chassis, it could be a kind of lottery, but for sure, they will have worked very, very hard
    So: let's be patient and never give up people!
    And think about one thing, fighting overs is way interesting than dominate year after year. No glory without fight
    Have a good day!
    Last edited by Gilles; 13th October 2021 at 10:24.

  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Because there is data and interpretation of data that suggests Ferrari are as fast as Mercedes or Honda on the straights or in laptime. I don't think it's realistic that Ferrari are now on par or close to those teams, but it's definitely a step in the right direction and the most important thing is does it give Ferrari an edge over McLaren now.
    if you refer to my post where i post the data with the top speeds, i just done it to say that this electrical imrovement is giving us something good and we are not still targets anymore !!!! NOT that we are the fastest !!!! Lec's top speed was definitaly due to his low dnf set up. As i said this update has given us some good characteristics not so on pure power but in different sideway areas and in total it can make the car bit faster /a one with you can fight harder even with the top dogs (where eventualy we will lose this year ,but we can give them a good fight ) and it looks like it puts us clearly in the spot of the 3d fastest car !!!!
    FERRARI FOR EVER !!!!!!!

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE PASSION View Post
    if you refer to my post where i post the data with the top speeds, i just done it to say that this electrical imrovement is giving us something good and we are not still targets anymore !!!! NOT that we are the fastest !!!! Lec's top speed was definitaly due to his low dnf set up. As i said this update has given us some good characteristics not so on pure power but in different sideway areas and in total it can make the car bit faster /a one with you can fight harder even with the top dogs (where eventualy we will lose this year ,but we can give them a good fight ) and it looks like it puts us clearly in the spot of the 3d fastest car !!!!
    I'm not suggesting you are spreading information that Ferrari are better than they are. You posted information, which is good. I am just saying that some will see that info and jump to the conclusion that Ferrari are now competitive with Mercedes and Red Bull. I think I even heard Crofty mention Leclerc being fastest in the speed trap in Q2 which we know was from his huge tow he got from Sainz.

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Because there is data and interpretation of data that suggests Ferrari are as fast as Mercedes or Honda on the straights or in laptime. I don't think it's realistic that Ferrari are now on par or close to those teams, but it's definitely a step in the right direction and the most important thing is does it give Ferrari an edge over McLaren now.
    McLaren use what engines again?
    Forza Ferrari

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    While I agree we should be happy with the positives, I don't think they are as clear cut as being "facts".

    All the drivers were managing the tires, so they were all driving to a given speed that virtually everyone was capable of doing. In the post race Max stated how the management was a bore and his most difficult task was staying awake. Of course this is a joke, but the point is he and pretty much everyone were managing pace. So Leclerc matching Bottas doesn't necessarily mean the car was as fast.

    Sainz passing most came under braking. His PU was enough to at least get the car in range of the leading car, and then outbraked them into the corner. Hamilton on the other had had the pass done and a good 1 car length ahead by the time they hit the brakes.
    Maybe it's not clear cut to you, but to me, it is. I mean, these "facts" are backed up by conclusive data. Lap times are the best attributes to judge a F1 car's performance.

    And the data is quite clear. Turkey was the first true performance test, Charles qualified less than tenth behind Verstappen and kept up with both Bottas and Max while keeping Perez behind without any difficulty. Same thing in Russia, where Charles would've finished ahead of Max without the late rain incursion.

    And Hamilton had problems overtaking Tsunoda, Sainz had no such problems whatsoever. And Perez kept Ham behind quite easily.

    The performance uplift is clearly evident, no need to interpret it differently.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE PASSION View Post
    if you refer to my post where i post the data with the top speeds, i just done it to say that this electrical imrovement is giving us something good and we are not still targets anymore !!!! NOT that we are the fastest !!!! Lec's top speed was definitaly due to his low dnf set up. As i said this update has given us some good characteristics not so on pure power but in different sideway areas and in total it can make the car bit faster /a one with you can fight harder even with the top dogs (where eventualy we will lose this year ,but we can give them a good fight ) and it looks like it puts us clearly in the spot of the 3d fastest car !!!!
    And it wasn't just top speed. Charles was the fastest man in the sector 3, which has the long straights. Also he had no problem keeping up with Max in the first two sectors.

    Fact is, Charles was only 1.5 seconds away from Max and 5.5 seconds away from Bottas, when Max decided to pit. Ferrari's lap time gains after the upgrade is clearly evident, both in Russia and Turkey. If others are simply going to interpret this conclusively evidence wrongly, then it's their problem.

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    McLaren use what engines again?
    So you believe Ferrari's PU is as strong as the Mercedes PU because of the recent update?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    And it wasn't just top speed. Charles was the fastest man in the sector 3, which has the long straights. Also he had no problem keeping up with Max in the first two sectors.

    Fact is, Charles was only 1.5 seconds away from Max and 5.5 seconds away from Bottas, when Max decided to pit. Ferrari's lap time gains after the upgrade is clearly evident, both in Russia and Turkey. If others are simply going to interpret this conclusively evidence wrongly, then it's their problem.
    As already stated, not just by me, but the drivers, Turkey was a tire management race. Firstly you can never see true pace from a wet race, but one where the drivers are in a constant state of tire management is useless data. Its great that Leclerc stayed in contention for a podium, but a better representative of pace is Sainz who put up the best string of laps towards the closing portion of the race, set a 1:31.921. When Bottas decided to push to set FL, he did a 1:30.432. Is that close?

    But hey, you can lead the cheerleading squad claiming that Ferrari can hang with Merc and RBR in race pace. I'll continue to focus on their battle with Mclaren.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    So you believe Ferrari's PU is as strong as the Mercedes PU because of the recent update?
    I believe that you love to pour doom and gloom on the team at every opportunity.
    Forza Ferrari

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    I believe that you love to pour doom and gloom on the team at every opportunity.
    Because I live in reality and show actual facts?

    Here's a fact, you like to pick fights at every opportunity possible. Seriously, what's the point of the post you just did other than to start useless arguments? Is anything I said not true? If so, how about providing some actual information or come up with your own thoughts on the matter.

    So come USA, on a dry track, if Ferrari are not matching the pace of the leaders (within 5-6 seconds of the top 2), and one of the leaders in trap speed are you going to hold yourself to some sort of accountability? What about @tifosi1993 who is literally claiming that is the true performance of Ferrari and stating that as "facts".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Because I live in reality and show actual facts?

    Here's a fact, you like to pick fights at every opportunity possible. Seriously, what's the point of the post you just did other than to start useless arguments? Is anything I said not true? If so, how about providing some actual information or come up with your own thoughts on the matter.

    So come USA, on a dry track, if Ferrari are not matching the pace of the leaders (within 5-6 seconds of the top 2), and one of the leaders in trap speed are you going to hold yourself to some sort of accountability? What about @tifosi1993 who is literally claiming that is the true performance of Ferrari and stating that as "facts".
    I never claimed anything so you can hold me to whatever accountability you want I will though assume you will hold yourself accountable if Ferrari are up there in say Mexico if we are hand picking tracks to decide things....
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    I never claimed anything so you can hold me to whatever accountability you want I will though assume you will hold yourself accountable if Ferrari are up there in say Mexico if we are hand picking tracks to decide things....
    So you want to challenge me, start a "fight" but can't stand by your own words. What a cowardly act.

    As for me, if Ferrari fight for the win in the next 2 dry races, I'll be the first to say I was wrong. I'd be happy if I was wrong, but I won't be shocked or disappointed if they aren't in view of the lead by the end of the race.

    I said USA because it's the very next race. I didn't think it required more than common sense to put that together, my apologies.

  14. #764
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    I think we are getting close. And I think the fact that they could improve the chassis with such a little window of possibilities, means they have the correlation issues solved, and they know where to focus development on.

    I think we are lagging behind by a 3-4 tenths in engine, and a 2-3 in chassis, for a total of about half a second. Which could be overcome in any off season, even without huge regulation changes.

    I obviously don't think we are there yet on engine, otherwise you wouldn't run with such little rear wing, would you?

    But given that the time lost by the chassis is in medium - high speed corners... if you have a track without those, and without straights to nullify the engine differences, like Mexico, Ferrari could easily win a race on merit this year, and be there to pick up possible wins where Max and Lewis crash into one another which is a near certainty somewhere else this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    As already stated, not just by me, but the drivers, Turkey was a tire management race. Firstly you can never see true pace from a wet race, but one where the drivers are in a constant state of tire management is useless data. Its great that Leclerc stayed in contention for a podium, but a better representative of pace is Sainz who put up the best string of laps towards the closing portion of the race, set a 1:31.921. When Bottas decided to push to set FL, he did a 1:30.432. Is that close?

    But hey, you can lead the cheerleading squad claiming that Ferrari can hang with Merc and RBR in race pace. I'll continue to focus on their battle with Mclaren.
    Fine. I shall lead the "cheerleading squad" and you continue to lead on the funeral squad.

    And I don't need to over-complicate things. Two races in a row Charles kept up with Max's Red Bull. Charles did a 1:32.981 on lap 23, something Max was unable to do in his entire first stint. Even, Max only managed to do two sub 1:33 laps in the entire GP.

    And since you're focusing lap times, by your logic, the Merc must be 2-seconds faster than the Red Bull because Bottas's fastest lap was 2.3 seconds faster than Max.

    Focusing on the fastest lap and using it to justify the pace difference is a silly thing to do. What you should be focusing on is the consistent lap times. Increasing the engine rev and fuel flow in order to set a one fast lap is hardly worth any consideration. And speaking of tyre-saving, it has been the name of the game since 2011.

    I'm just happy with our overall progress. Ferrari is a lot closer to the Merc-Red Bull race pace after the upgrade. Which to me is a positive sign. But it seems our recent uplift in performance is upsetting you somehow. Which is hardly surprising, since you were the poster that were parroting around that BS "Chales-Binotto feud" story.

  16. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Fine. I shall lead the "cheerleading squad" and you continue to lead on the funeral squad.

    And I don't need to over-complicate things. Two races in a row Charles kept up with Max's Red Bull. Charles did a 1:32.981 on lap 23, something Max was unable to do in his entire first stint. Even, Max only managed to do two sub 1:33 laps in the entire GP.

    And since you're focusing lap times, by your logic, the Merc must be 2-seconds faster than the Red Bull because Bottas's fastest lap was 2.3 seconds faster than Max.

    Focusing on the fastest lap and using it to justify the pace difference is a silly thing to do. What you should be focusing on is the consistent lap times. Increasing the engine rev and fuel flow in order to set a one fast lap is hardly worth any consideration. And speaking of tyre-saving, it has been the name of the game since 2011.

    I'm just happy with our overall progress. Ferrari is a lot closer to the Merc-Red Bull race pace after the upgrade. Which to me is a positive sign. But it seems our recent uplift in performance is upsetting you somehow. Which is hardly surprising, since you were the poster that were parroting around that BS "Chales-Binotto feud" story.
    How many times do I have say it was a tire management race? The entire race. Nothing like the normal management because there was no target pitstops. All the teams expected the track to dry up, it didn't. It was unknown if more rain would come, it drizzled. Could the tires last? Do you put new inters on, or slicks, or stay out/ It was unknown after unknown lap after lap. This is pretty obvious stuff man, did you not watch the race? In your attempt to try and prove me wrong you once again proved me right. Bottas' fast lap showed how much they were saving, he was cruising around running the lap times he needed to do. Since Max had nothing for Bottas, but had enough to cover anyone behind him, he did the same. Aside from Bottas, did anyone even push for a fast lap? I don't think so since the tires were such a big deal, which is why Bottas pushed on the very last lap.

    Also stop trying to spread misinformation, or maybe that's your thing. I didn't spread the rumor about Charles-Binotto, I made a comment on the article that was posted by someone else here on the forum. I also said "apparently" to the disagreement which obviously meant I questioned the validity of the article.

    In your expert analysis, how much closer to Merc and RBR are Ferrari now? What should we expect in Austin come qualifying and/or race?

    Personally I don't even care all that much how Ferrari performs vs Mercedes and RBR, I am interested how they perform against McLaren.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    How many times do I have say it was a tire management race? The entire race. Nothing like the normal management because there was no target pitstops. All the teams expected the track to dry up, it didn't. It was unknown if more rain would come, it drizzled. Could the tires last? Do you put new inters on, or slicks, or stay out/ It was unknown after unknown lap after lap. This is pretty obvious stuff man, did you not watch the race? In your attempt to try and prove me wrong you once again proved me right. Bottas' fast lap showed how much they were saving, he was cruising around running the lap times he needed to do. Since Max had nothing for Bottas, but had enough to cover anyone behind him, he did the same. Aside from Bottas, did anyone even push for a fast lap? I don't think so since the tires were such a big deal, which is why Bottas pushed on the very last lap.

    Also stop trying to spread misinformation, or maybe that's your thing. I didn't spread the rumor about Charles-Binotto, I made a comment on the article that was posted by someone else here on the forum. I also said "apparently" to the disagreement which obviously meant I questioned the validity of the article.

    In your expert analysis, how much closer to Merc and RBR are Ferrari now? What should we expect in Austin come qualifying and/or race?

    Personally I don't even care all that much how Ferrari performs vs Mercedes and RBR, I am interested how they perform against McLaren.
    So you're getting worked up about something you don't care? Funny.

    And your knowledge is lacking. Bottas didn't manage to do 1m30 lap by pushing the tyres to the limit. He did it by increasing the engine power aka using the highest performance engine mapping.

    Ferrari were closer to Red Bull in both Russia and Turkey after the upgrade. It's a simple fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    So you want to challenge me, start a "fight" but can't stand by your own words. What a cowardly act.

    As for me, if Ferrari fight for the win in the next 2 dry races, I'll be the first to say I was wrong. I'd be happy if I was wrong, but I won't be shocked or disappointed if they aren't in view of the lead by the end of the race.

    I said USA because it's the very next race. I didn't think it required more than common sense to put that together, my apologies.
    How can I stand by words I never said? And you say I want to argue while you attack me for words I never said
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    So you're getting worked up about something you don't care? Funny.

    And your knowledge is lacking. Bottas didn't manage to do 1m30 lap by pushing the tyres to the limit. He did it by increasing the engine power aka using the highest performance engine mapping.

    Ferrari were closer to Red Bull in both Russia and Turkey after the upgrade. It's a simple fact.
    Please show us the telemetry that shows Bottas gained 1.5 seconds in engine mode alone. Also please inform the FIA about Mercedes' super never drain battery that allows max battery performance as well as how they are cheating the engine mode rules. Also, that's devastating to know Bottas had 1.5 seconds in hand just from pure power. No way Red Bull can't compete with that and Ferrari will need at least 6 more upgrades to catch up. Imagine if Bottas pushed the tires as well as having this super power setting, how many more seconds would he have been?

    So I'll ask again, how much closer are Ferrari to Red Bull and Mercedes? And how did you gather this from Russia where Leclerc didn't set a Q2 time and started from the back, and Turkey was wet?

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    Binotto: "The 2022 powertrain will bring us back to competitiveness"

    https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...itivi/6686188/

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    Binotto :
    “If today we are still paying a performance gap in terms of powertrains compared to the best, our objective is not to find it again next year. Then, of course, it will depend on how much the others grow, because in F1 everything is relative ”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesky View Post
    Compared to what?

    Compared to Merc who currently are owning Honda completely on engine performance, I assume we have nothing. Hamilton was running around looking like he had DRS all race long.
    Have you thought of the chance that RBR knowing that Turkey was a track they were not really competitive and with the engine rules in place, they had their engines slightly detuned for this GP?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  23. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Because there is data and interpretation of data that suggests Ferrari are as fast as Mercedes or Honda on the straights or in laptime. I don't think it's realistic that Ferrari are now on par or close to those teams, but it's definitely a step in the right direction and the most important thing is does it give Ferrari an edge over McLaren now.
    Maybe not on par, close? yes.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Please show us the telemetry that shows Bottas gained 1.5 seconds in engine mode alone. Also please inform the FIA about Mercedes' super never drain battery that allows max battery performance as well as how they are cheating the engine mode rules. Also, that's devastating to know Bottas had 1.5 seconds in hand just from pure power. No way Red Bull can't compete with that and Ferrari will need at least 6 more upgrades to catch up. Imagine if Bottas pushed the tires as well as having this super power setting, how many more seconds would he have been?

    So I'll ask again, how much closer are Ferrari to Red Bull and Mercedes? And how did you gather this from Russia where Leclerc didn't set a Q2 time and started from the back, and Turkey was wet?
    Again? You said that you don't care about Ferrari's performance against Merc-RB and only focusing on the battle against Mclaren. So why keep on harping about something you don't care about?

    And why don't you post the tyre usage data of each car first. Then I will post the telemetry.

    So let me say it again, since you're having a hard time gasping this simple fact, that Ferrari are now closer to Merc-RB with the upgraded energy components. It's a simple fact that is backed up by over 100 laps of data. If Ferrari's progress makes you unhappy than oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    So you're getting worked up about something you don't care? Funny.

    And your knowledge is lacking. Bottas didn't manage to do 1m30 lap by pushing the tyres to the limit. He did it by increasing the engine power aka using the highest performance engine mapping.

    Ferrari were closer to Red Bull in both Russia and Turkey after the upgrade. It's a simple fact.
    Tip: You can't change the engine modes anymore remember, or do you know something we don't know hehe.
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSpeed View Post
    Tip: You can't change the engine modes anymore remember, or do you know something we don't know hehe.
    Yes you can. Different engine modes are still allowed. But only one performance mode is allowed, not multiple ones.

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    Ferrari: the new hybrid is worth more than what we are told

    https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...icono/6684304/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilles View Post
    Ferrari: the new hybrid is worth more than what we are told

    https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...icono/6684304/
    i knew it that we were NOT telling the exact truth about how much HP it would give us.....and why tell the exact numbers??? let the opposition to find that out....lol

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    Agree. Also, that they remain modest is really desirable, in view of the disaster of 2020 and for the respect of the fans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilles View Post
    Agree. Also, that they remain modest is really desirable, in view of the disaster of 2020 and for the respect of the fans
    If they manage a win this season, tears of joy will flow.

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