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Sir Lewis pushing a driver onto "The Grass" and pushing Rubens a former team mate within millimeters of a concrete wall at 190 MPH fighting for 10th place was not over any championships. The point is; that was for sure not a great driver's moment . But.... one can say that it was a great driver's moment for Rubens not hitting the wall and winding up dead or a cripple . 10th place!!! Hard racing at it's worse.
Last edited by Brembo; 29th May 2021 at 02:20.
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@SS454
So you can't provide any examples of "several altercations" between Massa and Hamilton when they fought for the 2008 WDC. Noted.
It's quite hard to have nuanced discussions on this forum, sometimes.
Thread title" Schumacher vs Hamilton"
My post: Both are the greatest, but the main difference is, Hamilton kept it clean, Schumacher hadn't. Hamilton never got dis-qualified from a WDC fight, nor any of his former teammates ever accused him of trying to kill them on track. Schumacher's career is filled with controversies and dangerous driving antics. Simple facts.
I'm not interested in whataboutisms and other peoples wounded feelings. I'm not bashing Schumacher, I'm simply stating facts and the main difference Schumacher and Hamilton. Because skill wise both are inseparable, it's their on track driving where the main difference lies.
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Lewis also had his moments. Schumacher was more public,mainly because the british press did not like the fact that british teams/drivers got punished.My post: Both are the greatest, but the main difference is, Hamilton kept it clean, Schumacher hadn't.
That simple.
But Lewis being an angel and clean ? No.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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@tifosi1993
Sorry it was 2011 that Hamilton and Massa had most of their altercations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m481ED70_No <--- could any of those be deemed Massa's fault or just poor judgement by Hamilton? I think it's hard racing, but it's not exactly squeaky clean.
You say filled with dangerous driving antics. What other examples are there?
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Tried to screw over Hill, tried to take out Villeneuve, parked the car intentionally to stop the qualifying, almost killed Rubens on track etc etc, and there are so many other incidents.Originally Posted by aroutis
Hamilton did none of those things.
As Lauda said, "Schumacher would cheat to win". Which is a sad thing, since he never needed to cheat because he had all the skills to prosper.
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You name the exact 4 that everyone knows about and claim there is so many more. What are any others?
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So it's nothing bad simple but hard racing.
Every driver had incidents throughout their career, But very few got dis-qualified from the championship by trying to intentionally take out a rival.
I don't know why it's so had to understand this simple fact: Hamilton's on track ethics are much, much better then Schumacher's.
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Adelaide 1994, weaving on the track like a madman which forced FIA to clarify "one move rule" in 1995, Jerez 1997, GB 1998, Austria 2000, Hungary 2010 when he tried to kill Rubens etc etc..
Also Google is your friend. Simply typing "Schumacher controversial moments" would give you all info you need. Then compare that to Hamilton's "controversial" moments.
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For the umteenth time, I never said Hamilton's history of controversy compares to Schumacher.
You could have googled Hamilton vs Massa, so I'll insist on you backing up your claims.
I haven't seen MS weaving in 1994, but I guess it wasn't illegal at the time.
You mentioned the JV 1997 incident again. Why?
What happened in Great Britain 1998?
What happened in Austria 2000 considering he was taken out in the first corner?
You mention 2010 Hungary against RB again, why?
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I have to agree to the fact that Michael Schumacher was the end justifies the means kind of racer. He was ruthless and his will to win was unparalleled. That was part of his character that made him overcome challenges that was normal drivers would fail due to the nature of formula 1, the fact that usually the driver with the best equipment wins.
He did not always have the best equipment and he managed miracles with inferior cars. Talent for talent, Lewis and Michael is pretty equal. Where they differ is that Michael was able to bring people around him and succeed. In my view, Michael is the GOAT but Lewis is close.
This was Lewis before he had the rocket ship hybrid engine. ENJOY! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7_SnEQdZpY
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Nice to see these fights between Felipe and HAM again, makes me even more sure that HAM was guilty as charged!
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Sparkingly clean? This is the only driver who's ever been disqualified from a race for lying to race stewards and race control? That's cheating no matter how you spin in.
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You lack reading comprehension. "Compared to Schumacher", "ordered by Mclaren". Never said it wasn't a cheating, it's you who're trying to spin it.
Schumacher on his own accord tried to crash into his championship rival so that he could take him out and got dis-qualified, plus the numerous times he tried to kill another driver on track. Compared to Schumacher, Hamilton's offences look pretty innocuous. Like comparing Murder to grocery store thefts.
Last edited by tifosi1993; 31st May 2021 at 05:36.
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You know that Senna did a really bad thing at Japan and yet noone cared because he was driving a Mclaren.
And Michael, did take after Senna and yet, since he was German taking down the British establishment, everything he did was looked upon totally biased.
Was he an angel? Of course not. Did he do things he should not, sure. Ask me if I care.
Same thing goes for every great.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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But this is Hamilton. Hero in the making, the one and only that had to restore the British image.
Come on people, surely you can see it.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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And here's the $2,000,000.00 question. Why didn't Senna had his points stripped after Japan?
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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Go ask Senna. The discussion is between Schumacher and Hamilton and I'd stick to it. I don't care about whataboutism or bringing up driver X, Y or Z to defend your favorite driver's dangerous driving record.
If Hamilton tried to kill other drivers on track numerous times or gets thrown out of a WDC fight because he was petulant enough to deliberately crash into his championship rival in order to win the WDC, then sure feel free to come back at me. Otherwise, don't bother. Stick to your whataboutism, see if anyone cares.
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Now you are just talking stupid. Seriously, what kind of utter nonsense is that?
There is literally ONE time Schumacher's driving was blatantly dangerous. But to suggest it was an attempt to murder is ridiculous. And I know you are going to bring up how Barrichello used the words "tried to kill me", but so have dozens of other drivers in other incidents in the heat of the moment. Hell even Michael used those words when he collided with Coulthard.
You keep saying stating his supposed endless list of murderous driving by Schumacher but have not once backed it up. You keep repeating the same 3 or 4 occurrences but claim that he has 100 others but you can't prove it.
So step up or shut up.
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A Shumacher veto power team orders contract is also a "Killer;" if your his team mate. " Let Michael pass or lose your seat. " If Rubens didn't drive perfectly and save his own life that race would fans say; " Oh he only killed ONE driver in his whole career ? Meanwhile regardless of Binotto's ignoring the 2021 season for better times to come, the year 2021 may well go down in F-1 history as the GOAT ! New records will be set that may well take decades to reach. Ferrari's 12 will still hold strong!!
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There is no what aboutism, there is however making a point. And I am pretty sure I made it, judging by your reaction.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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Sorry but did you forget your pills?
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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O k I must be wrong imagining 2021 finishing with 8 WDCs and 100+ wins! Mission impossible. And believing Ferrari on a few podiums! For me the races are great.
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Your post is a textbook definition of whataboutism. Bringing out Senna or any other driver's racing record in a "Schumacher vs Hamilton" debate is nothing but desperation.
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No, it's an answer on your point about "But very few got dis-qualified from the championship by trying to intentionally take out a rival."
Which quite honestly is hypocritical.
When we do have the case of Ayrton Senna which was worse than what Michael did and nothing happened.
And that goes to prove what I am telling you but you are blind to the facts of F1.
You 're trying to make a Schumacher / Hamilton comparison which quite honestly is to say the least moot comparison because of the politics of F1.
People try to explain this to you but you fail to listen. There is no whataboutism here.
You can try to understand the premises of F1 or just go your way and go on. Your choice.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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Senna and Hamilton are two different people.
Thread title: "Michael Schumacher vs Lewis Hamilton", and I've pretty much kept it on-topic. My posts are quite simple: Skill wise they can't be separated, IMO. But their on track racing mindset and maneuvers are quite different and that's what separate these two. Schumacher's racing career is filled with dangerous driving, cheating allegations (not just fans, but other drivers and teams alleged Schu being a cheat), disqualification from the championship, race weekend etc. Can easily be backed up by facts. Hamilton on the other hand kept it clean, especially compared to Schumacher. He never accused by other drivers of being a lunatic on track or disqualified from the WDC fight. Again can easily be backed up by facts.
The "people" you're speaking of, basically you and two more posters, simply can't gasp this simple fact and had to resort to logical fallacies. Brining Senna/any other driver's racing record into "Schumacher vs Hamilton" debate in an attempt to deflect/defend Schumacher's dangerous driving record is nothing but whataboutism. You're trying to sugarcoat Schumacher's major incidents with Hamilton's minor misdeeds by bringing up Senna's records.
Simply accept this fact: Hamilton was, is and always will be regarded as a more fairer and cleaner Champion than Schumacher. Being hysterical about it, just because Schumacher is your favorite driver, is not going to change this fact. Come back at me when Hamilton get's kicked out from a WDC fight or tried to intentionally take out a WDC rival.
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And people accuse you of being paranoid because you always bring up Rubens/Ferrari team orders. But those same people bring up Senna in a "Schumacher vs Hamilton" debate to justify Schumacher's dangerous driving antics.
Like...yeah, Ok. Senna and Schumacher are equally dangerous but what that got to do with Hamilton. Since the main discussion is about the difference between Schu and Ham, not Senna or any other drivers.
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I am sorry but the Sanna discussion IS relevant.
Without the 2x Japan incidents, I bet that Schumacher wouldnt take Hill out.
Now, is LH a cleaner driver? I don't think so.
Is he a cleaner champion? Absolutely.
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
TBH not that hard, as he has absolute supreme car/engine combo than the rest, and his team mate is there just because rules are saying each team has to have two cars!
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Agreed, stefa, and can we put an end to this comparison, we all have our opinions but it's now becoming a slanging match.
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I am finding with the debate that looks at their accomplishments, there are the Schumacher fans that will discredit Hamilton by saying he's had the best equipment for more of his career (which is 100% true), or even say that he's had F1/FIA in his back pocket, which outside of a few articles is speculation.
Then there is the Hamilton fans that will ignore the facts we can prove, or when the data is balanced as fairly as possible, and quickly jump to Schumacher was a dirty driver. How dirty he was is very opinion based, but I think there is enough evidence to suggest he's a dirtier driver than Hamilton. People like tifosi1993 will claim he has a history of dangerous driving, but can't come up with anything past the 3 or 4 incidents, of which just 1 was actually scary dangerous. These same people fail to recognize any time that Hamilton (or any driver) has made bad judgement in his driving and caused an accident. This could be considered as dangerous driving, but not dirty.
The other point Hamilton fans will jump to is that Schumacher was contractually a #1 driver for most of his career. We know for fact this was the case with Rubens, and pretty certain with Irvine, but do we know for certain it was written into a contract with all other drivers? No we do not. We do know that Schumacher was the #1 driver in his teams, which he deserved as Benetton would have been crazy to give the best equipment or best strategy to Brundle or Herbert, especially when they had a shot to win the championships. Same goes with Irvine or Barrichello at Ferrari. The Hamilton fans will ignore that Lewis Hamilton was given equal status as a Rookie against Alonso would was a 2x defending champion. Alonso had every right to be ****** since he earned the right to have #1 favoritism within the team, since Hamilton hadn't even started a single Grand Prix. Then of course we know McLaren shifted their efforts to Hamilton, instead of Alonso, and yet they both finished with the same amount of points, both losing the WDC. Had McLaren gave Alonso #1 treatment, they would have won the WDC. Of course Hamilton was #1 against Kovelainen. He had equal status against Button and Rosberg, in which he lost to each of them once, but otherwise was easily the better driver. After that, it appears that Hamilton was contractually #1 against Bottas and we have seen Bottas get sacrificed to help Hamilton on several occasions.
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