Michael Schumacher vs Lewis Hamilton

[tifosi1993]

I am sorry but the Sanna discussion IS relevant.
Without the 2x Japan incidents, I bet that Schumacher wouldnt take Hill out.

Now, is LH a cleaner driver? I don't think so.
Is he a cleaner champion? Absolutely.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hamilton is a cleaner champion. But some people here, because of their undying loyalty toward the ex Ferrari-Mercedes driver, have to go on a defensive posture and bring out driver X, Y or Z's racing record to justify Schumacher's dangerous driving record.

[stefa]

Agreed, stefa, and can we put an end to this comparison, we all have our opinions but it's now becoming a slanging match.

[Toothlessrage*]

Okay.

No driver in F1 has been fair.
Each driver and team always looks for an unfair advantage.
There aren't any successful teams that don't push the rules for that unfair advantage.

To crucify Schumacher as a cheat is just plain childish.
True, I am not a fan of Hamilton. But, I do respect him as an icon of the sport just like Schumacher.

Anyway, here's a video you guys would probably find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlOa24FRSeA
In short, it says that Hamilton, Ron Dennis, and his mechanics played games with Alonso as the team as a whole preferred Hamilton as he is a British driver.

If any of you still think Hamilton is a straightforward and innocent individual, feel free to suckle on your pacifier.

[Brembo]

This tread keeps all this off the rest of the forum ! A great idea.

[Redfive]

Okay.

No driver in F1 has been fair.

Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart

[Toothlessrage*]

Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart

How could anyone possibly know if they were fair, let alone you? :|
Man, a successful team (including the driver) always pushes to the extreme to find an advantage.
Unless, their competition is rubbish.

[aroutis]

Senna and Hamilton are two different people.

Thread title: "Michael Schumacher vs Lewis Hamilton", and I've pretty much kept it on-topic. My posts are quite simple: Skill wise they can't be separated, IMO. But their on track racing mindset and maneuvers are quite different and that's what separate these two. Schumacher's racing career is filled with dangerous driving, cheating allegations (not just fans, but other drivers and teams alleged Schu being a cheat), disqualification from the championship, race weekend etc. Can easily be backed up by facts. Hamilton on the other hand kept it clean, especially compared to Schumacher. He never accused by other drivers of being a lunatic on track or disqualified from the WDC fight. Again can easily be backed up by facts.

The "people" you're speaking of, basically you and two more posters, simply can't gasp this simple fact and had to resort to logical fallacies. Brining Senna/any other driver's racing record into "Schumacher vs Hamilton" debate in an attempt to deflect/defend Schumacher's dangerous driving record is nothing but whataboutism. You're trying to sugarcoat Schumacher's major incidents with Hamilton's minor misdeeds by bringing up Senna's records.

Simply accept this fact: Hamilton was, is and always will be regarded as a more fairer and cleaner Champion than Schumacher. Being hysterical about it, just because Schumacher is your favorite driver, is not going to change this fact. Come back at me when Hamilton get's kicked out from a WDC fight or tried to intentionally take out a WDC rival.

When you bring arguments such as
"But very few got dis-qualified from the championship by trying to intentionally take out a rival."
you open up this whole discussion into bringing other drivers into this discussion. Like it or not.
If you don't understand this, this is not my problem. It is you that brought the mess, the moment you brought this argument, you made a mess out of it.

[aroutis]

Okay.

No driver in F1 has been fair.
Each driver and team always looks for an unfair advantage.
There aren't any successful teams that don't push the rules for that unfair advantage.

To crucify Schumacher as a cheat is just plain childish.
True, I am not a fan of Hamilton. But, I do respect him as an icon of the sport just like Schumacher.

Anyway, here's a video you guys would probably find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlOa24FRSeA
In short, it says that Hamilton, Ron Dennis, and his mechanics played games with Alonso as the team as a whole preferred Hamilton as he is a British driver.

If any of you still think Hamilton is a straightforward and innocent individual, feel free to suckle on your pacifier.

That's an excellent find.
Salutes !

[tifosi1993]

When you bring arguments such as
"But very few got dis-qualified from the championship by trying to intentionally take out a rival."
you open up this whole discussion into bringing other drivers into this discussion. Like it or not.
If you don't understand this, this is not my problem. It is you that brought the mess, the moment you brought this argument, you made a mess out of it.

Making excuses for your whataboutism is not gonna cut it. Schumacher got dis-qualified from the entire 1997 championship, Senna got dis-qualified from one race, so another logical fallacy from your part.

I get it, harsh truths about Schumacher not something you diehard Schumi fans can easily ignore. But it doesn't mean you have to be stubbornly obstructive about it.

Schumacher is one of the dirtiest racer in F1, Hamilton isn't. Not amount of whataboutisms are gonna change this simple fact.

[aroutis]

Schumacher got dis-qualified from the entire 1997 championship, Senna got dis-qualified from one race

Exactly.
That 's exactly what I am pointing out to you. But you're too blind to the fact of the matter. Same severity incidents, different punishments.
Do the math.

And this is why I am not going to go on, because if you don't wish to listen, there is no way for me to make you understand.

Keep talking to the hand. And thank you for making MY case.

[Brembo]

Even without the " Hard Racing " the F-1 records are being demolished by great car tech and great driving of great cars. No need to throw in concrete walls for help to get up front. 2021 !!

[tifosi1993]

Exactly.
That 's exactly what I am pointing out to you. But you're too blind to the fact of the matter. Same severity incidents, different punishments.
Do the math.

And this is why I am not going to go on, because if you don't wish to listen, there is no way for me to make you understand.

Keep talking to the hand. And thank you for making MY case.

Yet more logical fallacy. So Schumacher deliberately turning his wheel in order to take out his WDC rival is pretty much the same offence as Senna-Prost crash where neither driver was willing to back down? Hilarious.

Of course, people with normal functioning brain can easily recognize the difference between these two incidents. That's why there was no outcry of any "injustices" against Schumacher. It's the tiny minority, the ones with the "whole world against my poor ol Schumi" mindset, had problem with it. Probably the work of evil British empire against the innocent German.

You've already lost when you had to resort to whataboutism. And next time don't just highlight one sentence, try to quote the whole post. You know, the difference between "Schu and Ham" and the point being, Schumacher is one of the dirtiest racer in history, Hamilton isn't.

[Silent Bob]

Yet more logical fallacy. So Schumacher deliberately turning his wheel in order to take out his WDC rival is pretty much the same offence as Senna-Prost crash where neither driver was willing to back down? Hilarious.

Of course, people with normal functioning brain can easily recognize the difference between these two incidents. That's why there was no outcry of any "injustices" against Schumacher. It's the tiny minority, the ones with the "whole world against my poor ol Schumi" mindset, had problem with it. Probably the work of evil British empire against the innocent German.

You've already lost when you had to resort to whataboutism. And next time don't just highlight one sentence, try to quote the whole post. You know, the difference between "Schu and Ham" and the point being, Schumacher is one of the dirtiest racer in history, Hamilton isn't.

But he hasn't had to be for most of his career. He's never had a season like 1997 when his team were so far behind the leading team and slowly came back to challenge for the title just to see a slow puncture give it all away. When he was at McLaren, he made some pretty awful overtaking moves, especially with Massa, that cost us points. But overall he's had it pretty easy the later part of his career and I think he knows he can hang back and not have to tangle with other cars, that's credit to him and his team. But I agree Schumacher has had more incidents.. but no denying his brilliance regardless and the title of this thread is Schumacher vs Hamilton. Overall I think Schumacher has had more brilliant races won on his sheer talent than Hamilton, regardless of his deviances. And yes I am biased, because that was one of my favourite F1 periods, and he was one of my favourite Ferrari drivers.

[aroutis]

I told you already that you were the one that opened that can of worms.
Honestly I am not sure what your beef is with Schumacher , quite honestly, I don't give a damn.
People have all sort of issues with people.
But clearly you have different standards and I have learned long time ago not to try to debate with blind people.

[aroutis]

Overall I think Schumacher has had more brilliant races won on his sheer talent than Hamilton, regardless of his deviances. And yes I am biased, because that was one of my favourite F1 periods, and he was one of my favourite Ferrari drivers.

Quite right. And that stems from the fact that he only had a dominant car for 2002 and 2004.

[tifosi1993]

I told you already that you were the one that opened that can of worms.
Honestly I am not sure what your beef is with Schumacher , quite honestly, I don't give a damn.
People have all sort of issues with people.
But clearly you have different standards and I have learned long time ago not to try to debate with blind people.

More yada yada yada. Posts nothing but whataboutism, brings out Senna-Prost crash and paints it under the same brush as Schumacher's deliberate crash incident of 1997, says doesn't care and then accuses others of being blind.

I mean what else can you do? You know very well that Hamilton is, was and always will be the fairer champion. Schumacher was a dirty driver, there was no if's or but's about it.

[stefa]

LH did not have to show his dirt side, as his machinery was way supreme than other. Therefore he was always cruising half a minute in front of second best... What I am trying to say, all these years he did not have real competition, neither in other team let alone his teammate! To summon, it is easy to be nice when there is no pressure!

[SilverSpeed]

LH did not have to show his dirt side, as his machinery was way supreme than other. Therefore he was always cruising half a minute in front of second best... What I am trying to say, all these years he did not have real competition, neither in other team let alone his teammate! To summon, it is easy to be nice when there is no pressure!

My 0.02$ also.

[jgonzalesm6]

LH did not have to show his dirt side, as his machinery was way supreme than other. Therefore he was always cruising half a minute in front of second best... What I am trying to say, all these years he did not have real competition, neither in other team let alone his teammate! To summon, it is easy to be nice when there is no pressure!

2016???? Lewis had 2 run-ins with Rosberg on the track.....and that's about the only competition Lewis has had as a team-mate where Toto did'nt show favoritesm towards any one driver.....unlike with Alonso when it was Lewis and Alonso with Mclaren.

[Silent Bob]

2016???? Lewis had 2 run-ins with Rosberg on the track.....and that's about the only competition Lewis has had as a team-mate where Toto did'nt show favoritesm towards any one driver.....unlike with Alonso when it was Lewis and Alonso with Mclaren.

There you go. Just proved that Hamilton is not that nice when he's got competition. who drives into their team mate twice> That's just dirty.

[jgonzalesm6]

There you go. Just proved that Hamilton is not that nice when he's got competition. who drives into their team mate twice> That's just dirty.

Well, let me break it down for you.

SpanishGP--> Nico took the lead on the opening lap BUT his settings were wrong (whether ERS or wrong mode) and Lewis knew Nico was in the wrong settings because of Nico's rain light kept flashing. Lewis was in the right mode and was going to overtake Nico. The next turn coming up is a right turn and Nico knew he was'nt in the right mode as well as Lewis was going to overtake on the inside right (without DRS) and the inevitable happened....Nico did a Schumi chop and both crashed.

AustrianGP--> Again, Lewis was going to overtake Nico on the outside going into the turn. Lewis ran wide to give Nico some room but Nco ran into the Lewis. Post race interview, Nico said that he was in full wheel lock going into the turn BUT if you look at Nico's on-board he WAS NOT at full wheel lock thereby running into Lewis on the outside....both collided and Nico damaged his front wing and lost places while Lewis won the race.

With regards to the Schumacher vs Lewis and who was a more cleaner driver? IMO, Lewis is the cleaner driver over Schumacher....but that's just my opinion. I've seen Schumacher's tactics and they are very questionable and at times very risky almost putting his competitors in the wall. Schumacher even did it while at Mercedes. I saw a move at COTA 2012 when I was there where Schumacher almost ran his competitor into the wall. I was like jeeeeezus.

[stefa]

Wow!!!
Two times since his debut in 2007! He is so under pressure.....

[Brembo]

Lewis can never come near the hard racing tactics of old. Concrete walls and Veto; #1 preference contracts were really a great help. Todt on the radio! Fast forward to 2021; Sir Lewis has a date with 8th ! It remains to be seen.

[tifosi1993]

"Hamilton has the best car"....and Schumacher was driving frigging Minardi I guess.

The whole team was built around Schumacher and rightfully so. He was pounding hundreds of laps in Maranello after each race, the bridgestone was tailored made for him, the cars were designed to suit his driving style and he delivered 5 WDC's on the trot.

But Schumacher never regarded other drivers wellbeing when he was racing with them. He would rather put them on the wall or take them out than being overtaken.

"But Senna did it as well"....but so what, Senna being dirty shouldn't be used as a excuse to justify Schumacher's dirty driving. Hamilton isn't nearly half as dirty as either Schu or Senna was, and he's already more successful.

[Brembo]

Oh ! Remember the T car! Set up just for Michael.

[aroutis]

More yada yada yada. Posts nothing but whataboutism, brings out Senna-Prost crash and paints it under the same brush as Schumacher's deliberate crash incident of 1997, says doesn't care and then accuses others of being blind.

I mean what else can you do? You know very well that Hamilton is, was and always will be the fairer champion. Schumacher was a dirty driver, there was no if's or but's about it.

And you keep repeating yourself in vain.

"But Senna did it as well"....but so what, Senna being dirty shouldn't be used as a excuse to justify Schumacher's dirty driving.

That was not the argument tho, was it?

[tifosi1993]

And you keep repeating yourself in vain.


That was not the argument tho, was it?

I was simply stating your Senna "point". Not my fault if you're suffering from short term memory loss.

That last post wasn't even directed to you. But I guess you can't help yourself.

For a man who doesn't give a damn, you sure like to pock your head like a pipping tom.

[Silent Bob]

I feel sorry for Hamilton having to race with a team like Merc that let him down so often. Hopefully the team, like he so publicly stated, can improve. There isn't much else the guy can do, he's perfect

[Silent Bob]

Well, let me break it down for you.

SpanishGP--> Nico took the lead on the opening lap BUT his settings were wrong (whether ERS or wrong mode) and Lewis knew Nico was in the wrong settings because of Nico's rain light kept flashing. Lewis was in the right mode and was going to overtake Nico. The next turn coming up is a right turn and Nico knew he was'nt in the right mode as well as Lewis was going to overtake on the inside right (without DRS) and the inevitable happened....Nico did a Schumi chop and both crashed.

AustrianGP--> Again, Lewis was going to overtake Nico on the outside going into the turn. Lewis ran wide to give Nico some room but Nco ran into the Lewis. Post race interview, Nico said that he was in full wheel lock going into the turn BUT if you look at Nico's on-board he WAS NOT at full wheel lock thereby running into Lewis on the outside....both collided and Nico damaged his front wing and lost places while Lewis won the race.

With regards to the Schumacher vs Lewis and who was a more cleaner driver? IMO, Lewis is the cleaner driver over Schumacher....but that's just my opinion. I've seen Schumacher's tactics and they are very questionable and at times very risky almost putting his competitors in the wall. Schumacher even did it while at Mercedes. I saw a move at COTA 2012 when I was there where Schumacher almost ran his competitor into the wall. I was like jeeeeezus.

Was just a bit of sarcasm, jgonzalesm6. Must be my Canadian coming through.

[SS454]

I feel sorry for Hamilton having to race with a team like Merc that let him down so often. Hopefully the team, like he so publicly stated, can improve. There isn't much else the guy can do, he's perfect

We all know any issues at Mercedes are Bottas' fault.