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Thread: Bahrain 2021: Post Race Analysis

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Everyone makes mistakes, especially referees, stewards etc. My guess is they weren't enforcing the turn 4 limits, Red Bull saw that that Hamilton was gaining so much time and complained. The stewards changed the rule mid race to compensate rather than give Ham a penalty and Red Bull ultimately shot themselves in the foot. I still believe Hamilton should have been penalized for gaining an advantage. I also agree with Verstappen that he should have kept the position and pulled away. Then they could have fought/appealed any penalty post race on the basis that Hamilton was let off 29 times.

    Anyway, the most important part of the video was how to enforce it in the future and make it easy for fans and drivers - enforce the white lines! Easy and simple lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hajj View Post
    If they really want to enforce track limits - PUT UP BARRIERS
    That will eliminate all this childish bickering among the teams and fans. F1 is acting like professional wrestling with these ridiculous drama queen plots.
    This is what happens when weaklings take control of an entity. Rule by consensus, not logic. Decisions made on emotion, not fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    agree. Track limits should be hard limits, not 3 chances. If you go off the track like at turn 4, automatic time added to lap, .5 to 1 sec.

    I've seen the FIA put up kerbs and sensor wires so drivers stay within track limits.....like overnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    changing the rules in the middle of the race...
    but F1 is the 'pinnacle of motorsport'
    yep, it's a head scratcher that's for sure. Qualifying, they were strick on track limits. During the race, not so much. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  2. #32
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    So Bottas got the fastest lap and extra point.....right. So exceeding track limits to get the fastest lap and extra point counts then at T4???

    https://twitter.com/thomasmaheronf1/...257671/photo/1
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Lewis gaining a timed and tire adavantage for leaving track limits 29 times.

    Max gaining an advantage by leaving the track and overtaking Lewis....giving the position back to Lewis.

    Ocon leaving the track and gaining an advantage and then overtaking Yuki.



    Why were track limits so inconsistent in the Bahrain Grand Prix

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MRmhaUPIg0&t=347s

    How many times did Max go over at turn 4, or every other driver?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    changing the rules in the middle of the race...
    but F1 is the 'pinnacle of motorsport'

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...kQFbwuHDU.html
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  5. #35
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    not very convincing is it?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    How many times did Max go over at turn 4, or every other driver?

    I don't know....but it was'nt 29 times.

    Look, track limits should have been enforced like the way it was in qualifying....however it was'nt during the race. When a driver exceeds track limits, regardless of the situation, they gain an advantage by:

    1.) tire wear
    2.) time advantage

    Exceeding track limits 29 times gave Lewis a 5 to 6 sec total time advantage as well as a tire preservation advantage.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    not very convincing is it?
    no it is not.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    I don't know....but it was'nt 29 times.
    How do you know, if you don't know?
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Exceeding track limits 29 times gave Lewis a 5 to 6 sec total time advantage as well as a tire preservation advantage.
    Max was doing it as well though but you just don't know how much, so you can't make that claim
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    How do you know, if you don't know?
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Max was doing it as well though but you just don't know how much, so you can't make that claim
    Well, the FIA told Mercedes that Lewis must obey track limits or he will get a black and white flag.

    Nothing was told to RedBull about a black and white Flag.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Well, the FIA told Mercedes that Lewis must obey track limits or he will get a black and white flag.

    Nothing was told to RedBull about a black and white Flag.
    You told me the FIA never said that though in the race thread lol.. but Max was doing it as well so do we know how many times?
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    You told me the FIA never said that though in the race thread lol.. but Max was doing it as well so do we know how many times?
    I don't remember telling you the FIA did'nt tell Mercedes about track limits.

    As some point during the race, the FIA told Mercedes about track limits.

    There is nothing that I have seen of Max or anyone else abusing track limits 29 times.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  13. #43
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    Well you sure did and you also said most drivers ran wide at turn 4 and that the limits were not enforced.....
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Well you sure did and you also said most drivers ran wide at turn 4 and that the limits were not enforced.....
    I don't believe so. Track limits were not enforced UP TO a certain point in the race when they were enforced.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    I don't believe so. Track limits were not enforced UP TO a certain point in the race when they were enforced.
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Track limits were enforced during Qualifying. During the race, they were not.....and most drivers were exceeding track limits at T4.

    The issue is Max gaining an advantage will passing Lewis by exceeding track limits at T4....which he did and gave the position back to Lewis.

    It is what is is. I don't agree with it as track limits should always be enforced.....especially at T4. Why the FIA did'nt put sensors there is beyond me.

    Still 22 races to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    The FIA did'nt tell Mercedes to stop doing it.....Mercedes told Lewis to stop doing it.
    Just leave this here...
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  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Just leave this here...
    Well, that was a day after the race.

    Since then, more news have developed.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  17. #47
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    A Deep Dive Into Turn Four's Track Limits | Jolyon Palmer Analysis | 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zR74ijo7U
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Lewis gaining a timed and tire adavantage for leaving track limits 29 times.

    Max gaining an advantage by leaving the track and overtaking Lewis....giving the position back to Lewis.

    Ocon leaving the track and gaining an advantage and then overtaking Yuki.



    Why were track limits so inconsistent in the Bahrain Grand Prix

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MRmhaUPIg0&t=347s
    I'm sorry but the stewards messed up. As for Michael Masi's explanation, why then did they only rein LH in once RB had made the decision to do the same?

    As far as I could tell, RB did not complain to the stewards about LH, they simply told their driver to do the same. The stewards should have just stayed out of it and let Max continue to do the same since the racing notes allow it and LH had been doing it the whole time. It's the fact that the stewards jumped in and disallowed the action MID-RACE (after allowing LH to do it for half the race) that made a mess of the situation.

    As for Max's overtake, that's pretty straightforward. It's not allowed. Regardless of whether drivers were permitted to leave the track when running alone, overtaking is a different and straightforward story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    I'm sorry but the stewards messed up. As for Michael Masi's explanation, why then did they only rein LH in once RB had made the decision to do the same?

    As far as I could tell, RB did not complain to the stewards about LH, they simply told their driver to do the same. The stewards should have just stayed out of it and let Max continue to do the same since the racing notes allow it and LH had been doing it the whole time. It's the fact that the stewards jumped in and disallowed the action MID-RACE (after allowing LH to do it for half the race) that made a mess of the situation.

    As for Max's overtake, that's pretty straightforward. It's not allowed. Regardless of whether drivers were permitted to leave the track when running alone, overtaking is a different and straightforward story.
    Norris seems to think otherwise. He breaks down his point in the video.

    Norris: Max completed Hamilton overtake on track

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...rain-overtake/
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  20. #50
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    That's where the track limits non enforcement becomes a problem. Drivers are going off track every lap then doesnt that area count as part of the track? Verstappen passed Hamiltln using the same amount of track that the drivers were using all race up until FIA said not to.

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    I love how Karma is getting served for RedBull. Those fools laughed at us and made a mockery out of us for giving out wrong calls during moments of pressure. Now, the first thing they do when they have a car capable for competing for a WDC is literally steal a defeat from the jaws of victory.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

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    In general I'm not a fan of not allowing cars to go to the exterior of a corner to gather speed since it makes the lap longer. The track limits nonsense is just like VAR in football, needlessly complicating things that don't need to be.

    The rule should basically be "don't take the p-" like the 2019 Austin IndyCar race where they went five metres wide every lap in the penultimate corner. Those places should just get gravel traps to disincentivize that. Bahrain T4 though... that is a garbage rule for that and Parabolica. The advantage of running wide in those corners are so minor it doesn't really do anything. If it's that big of an issue, just put gravel there.
    Last edited by Tifoso Svedese; 2nd April 2021 at 14:41.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Norris seems to think otherwise. He breaks down his point in the video.

    Norris: Max completed Hamilton overtake on track

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...rain-overtake/
    I couldn't watch Norris' video because it's way too long and I couldn't luck my way into skipping to the point where he talks about this, but I did watch the highlights and I see what he means. We must still consider though that while Max completed the overtake before running wide, the same line and speed he took through the corner that allowed him to make the pass also made him go wide. So if he had reined his car in to avoid going off he might not have been able to make the pass.
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    That's where the track limits non enforcement becomes a problem. Drivers are going off track every lap then doesnt that area count as part of the track? Verstappen passed Hamiltln using the same amount of track that the drivers were using all race up until FIA said not to.
    Yeah the whole thing was just badly done. The racing note effectively says going wide is permitted as long as the driver doesn't gain a lasting advantage. How bad is that wording?! The rule writers should really know better.
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  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post

    The advantage of running wide in those corners are so minor it doesn't really do anything. If it's that big of an issue, just put gravel there.
    In Lewis's case, exceeding track limits 29 times does have 2 advantages.

    1) tyre preservation

    2) time advantage....Lewis gained 5 to 6 seconds total.

    Had track limits been enforced during the race, it's possible Max would have had an opportunity of overtaking Lewis BEFORE T4....quite possibly on the straight. Max had the faster car at Bahrain.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    In Lewis's case, exceeding track limits 29 times does have 2 advantages.

    1) tyre preservation

    2) time advantage....Lewis gained 5 to 6 seconds total.

    Had track limits been enforced during the race, it's possible Max would have had an opportunity of overtaking Lewis BEFORE T4....quite possibly on the straight. Max had the faster car at Bahrain.
    What's the evidence for the tyre wear and time gained, and does it also account for how much time Max gained from doing the same thing?
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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    What's the evidence for the tyre wear and time gained, and does it also account for how much time Max gained from doing the same thing?
    Tyre wear - going from an abrasive track to a non-abrasive part of the track by exceeding track limits.

    Time gained - taking a longer racing line by exceeding track limits at a greater speed....not much...but greater than keeping 2 wheels within the lines.

    Max - did'nt exceed track limits 29 times or 21 times. Nothing has said as to the amount of times Max exceeded track limits.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Tyre wear - going from an abrasive track to a non-abrasive part of the track by exceeding track limits.

    Time gained - taking a longer racing line by exceeding track limits at a greater speed....not much...but greater than keeping 2 wheels within the lines.

    Max - did'nt exceed track limits 29 times or 21 times. Nothing has said as to the amount of times Max exceeded track limits.
    So what's the evidence other than just you saying it? Max ran wide also you don't know how many times so how much tyre wear did he save and time?

    Why is outside of the white lines not abrasive? do they use different tarmac? Would coming back on over the kerbs not cause tyre wear? How have you worked out 5 to 6 seconds time gained, what is this based on?

    Have you just made this up?
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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So what's the evidence other than just you saying it? Max ran wide also you don't know how many times so how much tyre wear did he save and time?

    Why is outside of the white lines not abrasive? do they use different tarmac? Would coming back on over the kerbs not cause tyre wear? How have you worked out 5 to 6 seconds time gained, what is this based on?

    Have you just made this up?
    Did'nt Max overtake Lewis on exceeding track limits thereby carrying greater speed?? Yes, the tarmac is different outside the white lines. It's not as abrasive. Most drivers go over one side of their car over the kerbs at various tracks and there has been no inconsistencies with one side of the car having more wear than the other....OTHER than more left handed corners than right handed corners.

    It's been estimated at T4, exceeding track limits gave the driver 2/10's time advantage each time. So 2/10's multiplied by 29 times is 5.8sec.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    It's been estimated at T4, exceeding track limits gave the driver 2/10's time advantage each time. So 2/10's multiplied by 29 times is 5.8sec.
    Well, 2 tenths is a stretch even running off Ascari at Monza, so I can't see why that would be the case in Bahrain. Maybe half a tenth on a normal lap.

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