Ferrari F1-75 Discussion Thread

[RossTheBoss]

Fair, but with a good leader, the engine problem would have been fixed, and sooner.

Toto strongarms the FIA non stop. If Ferrari had a leader with the same ruthless attitude the engine issues would be a non issue within 2 weeks.

It's why I actually respect Horner and Marko. I know some people here will hate me saying that, but I have to give credit where it's due.

Red Bull are not afraid to stand up to the FIA/Mercedes humpbuddy relationship, and make their own demands. They also built a ruthless team, and trained their drivers to be ruthless. It's worked. Both Mercedes and Red Bull follow the Brawn-Todt model, more than Ferrari themselves do.

The truth is, sanctioning bodies only respect a team in so far as they fear that team withdrawing from their series. Mercedes and Red Bull make clear their participation in F1 is contingent on certain demands being met, or they'll reconsider their commitment to F1. This happens in racing series around the world. Audi at Le Mans, Honda in Indycar, etc. If you truly want respect, you have to be willing to take a hostage, or the sanctioning body won't respect you. Ferrari and Renault don't take hostages, hence they get no respect.

[Greig]

It's why I actually respect Horner and Marko. I know some people here will hate me saying that, but I have to give credit where it's due.

Red Bull are not afraid to stand up to the FIA/Mercedes humpbuddy relationship, and make their own demands. They also built a ruthless team, and trained their drivers to be ruthless. It's worked. Both Mercedes and Red Bull follow the Brawn-Todt model, more than Ferrari themselves do.

The truth is, sanctioning bodies only respect a team in so far as they fear that team withdrawing from their series. Mercedes and Red Bull make clear their participation in F1 is contingent on certain demands being met, or they'll reconsider their commitment to F1. This happens in racing series around the world. Audi at Le Mans, Honda in Indycar, etc. If you truly want respect, you have to be willing to take a hostage, or the sanctioning body won't respect you. Ferrari and Renault don't take hostages, hence they get no respect.

What did Horner and Marko do that was so ruthless and remarkable when Merc were winning 8 titles in a row?

[RossTheBoss]

What did Horner and Marko do that was so ruthless and remarkable when Merc were winning 8 titles in a row?

Have you not paid any attention to the concessions Red Bull have gotten during the last few years?

[Greig]

Have you not paid any attention to the concessions Red Bull have gotten during the last few years?

Merc have won the last 8 WCC, what has Horner and Marko done that is ruthless and remarkable?

Trained their drivers to be ruthless? Perez is ruthless? Danny Ric was ruthless? Yeah remarkable what they have achieved....

[RossTheBoss]

Merc have won the last 8 WCC, what has Horner and Marko done that is ruthless and remarkable?

Trained their drivers to be ruthless? Perez is ruthless? Danny Ric was ruthless? Yeah remarkable what they have achieved....

Are you just trying to sound ridiculous and obtuse? You're doing a good job if that's your objective.

Who ended Mercedes dominance? Red Bull did. They designed a good car, developed it properly, played politics off the track, argued with race control to get their way, and used Perez as a thorn in Hamilton's side. Hell, this year they've been ruthless about team orders, taking no chances, even though the title is clearly theirs. And they're developing the car around Max, at the expense of Perez. They're using Brawn-Todt school tactics to win, as Ferrari trip on their clown shoes with the an equally fast car and two excellent drivers.

Furthermore, Red Bull have pushed for changes to engine regs twice, and gotten compromises their way. You don't see Ferrari getting that done. Why? Because the FIA don't fear Ferrari anymore. They don't worry about Ferrari ever exiting F1, and that's not a good thing for Ferrari.

So, yeah, Red Bull getting two WDC's and a WCC post Mercedes is pretty damn good, when put up against Ferrari. Not to mention they'll have won 6 WDC titles since Kimi last won for Ferrari.

[Greig]

Merc won the WCC last year also, 8 in a row so Red Bull have yet to end their dominance as you state...

Horner and Marko done very little against Merc no matter how you want to use them as some poster boys to bash at Ferrari. Argued with race control to get their way? you must have missed Horner and co trying to get their way at Silverstone....

Ferrari have leaped ahead of Merc and taken a bigger leap than Red Bull did this year but yeah sure all hail Horner and Marko who won a WDC by "human error".

[RossTheBoss]

Merc won the WCC last year also, 8 in a row so Red Bull have yet to end their dominance as you state...

Horner and Marko done very little against Merc no matter how you want to use them as some poster boys to bash at Ferrari. Argued with race control to get their way? you must have missed Horner and co trying to get their way at Silverstone....

Ferrari have leaped ahead of Merc and taken a bigger leap than Red Bull did this year but yeah sure all hail Horner and Marko who won a WDC by "human error".

Red Bull won the WDC, which is what everyone around the world cares about. Deal with it.

You can try and diminish their accomplishments all you want, and insist that the fart machine that has been Ferrari leadership has been good this year, but you're convincing nobody that has eyes and common sense.

You're measured two things in the sport. The races you won that you should've lost, and the races you lost that you should've won. This year Ferrari have lost about 4 or 5 races they should've won because of one thing or another, and that's simply inexcusable.

[Greig]

Red Bull won the WDC, which is what everyone around the world cares about. Deal with it.

You can try and diminish their accomplishments all you want, and insist that the fart machine that has been Ferrari leadership has been good this year, but you're convincing nobody that has eyes and common sense.

You're measured two things in the sport. The races you won that you should've lost, and the races you lost that you should've won. This year Ferrari have lost about 4 or 5 races they should've won because of one thing or another, and that's simply inexcusable.

No not everyone around the world only cares about the WDC so you can deal with that. So let's get back to your point, tell us what Marko and Horner were ruthless, fought the FIA over and were remarkable to still not stop Merc winning 8 WCC in a row and only won the WDC due to "human error."

What have your poster boys done?

Ferrari are going to lose the titles due to "human error" not because they did not cry to the FIA and threaten to leave, deal with it. But still I will await your examples of the Red Bull weight being thrown around that gave them no WCC and are to be used as some kind of example of greatness.....I shall wait....and wait...

p.s new rules at Spa that will probably hurt Red Bull, great example of Marko and Horner taking on the FIA....as said I will wait.

[PURE PASSION]

Personally I don't like AT ALL Marko. Horner I'm in the middle. And I don't like last years RedBull championship. It's so controversial (to be true It's almost illegal after FIAs claims that it was a human error) for my liking. I know that people say ,"Max IS the world champion and that's what matters " but not for me. If we had won the championship like them it would be so bittersweet for me ,almost I wouldn't celebrate it .
Merc on the other hand as much as I dislike them for dominating the last 8 years, I accept that they play the game brilliantly for their own sake. They didn't accept anything bad for their team "for the good of the sport "
And they always try to find way to looks legal what they demand.

[Silent Bob]

Red Bull won the WDC, which is what everyone around the world cares about. Deal with it.

You can try and diminish their accomplishments all you want, and insist that the fart machine that has been Ferrari leadership has been good this year, but you're convincing nobody that has eyes and common sense.

You're measured two things in the sport. The races you won that you should've lost, and the races you lost that you should've won. This year Ferrari have lost about 4 or 5 races they should've won because of one thing or another, and that's simply inexcusable.

Yes they've made some errors that have cost wins but the fact that we have a chance at winning with a decent car is also due to the people you want to get rid of.

Everyone was calling for engine performance above reliability last year. Now that tune has suddenly changed. Developing the engine so quickly was bound to have issues.

Leclerc and Sainz have both cost us points. But we accept that they are still learning and we expect them to get better. Why not the rest of the team? They're going to .make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.


The fans that want to constantly tear the team down every time something goes wrong and then are surprised when we never get competitive make me laugh. Merx didnt win 8 titles by firing everyone, they developed their people.
It's not hard to admit Binotto and co. Have made mistakes, but it cant be much harder to also admit they've done some good work to get us back to the top. Stop trying to tear it all down. Give them this year to see if they develop.

[FerrariF60]

Yes they've made some errors that have cost wins but the fact that we have a chance at winning with a decent car is also due to the people you want to get rid of.

Everyone was calling for engine performance above reliability last year. Now that tune has suddenly changed. Developing the engine so quickly was bound to have issues.

Leclerc and Sainz have both cost us points. But we accept that they are still learning and we expect them to get better. Why not the rest of the team? They're going to .make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.


The fans that want to constantly tear the team down every time something goes wrong and then are surprised when we never get competitive make me laugh. Merx didnt win 8 titles by firing everyone, they developed their people.
It's not hard to admit Binotto and co. Have made mistakes, but it cant be much harder to also admit they've done some good work to get us back to the top. Stop trying to tear it all down. Give them this year to see if they develop.

Very well put and I TOTALLY agree with everything you said...

I’ve said it many, many times before.....I’d rather have a fast car with some reliability issues that can be ironed out as opposed to a slow conservative reliable car...

[RossTheBoss]

Yes they've made some errors that have cost wins but the fact that we have a chance at winning with a decent car is also due to the people you want to get rid of.

Everyone was calling for engine performance above reliability last year. Now that tune has suddenly changed. Developing the engine so quickly was bound to have issues.

Leclerc and Sainz have both cost us points. But we accept that they are still learning and we expect them to get better. Why not the rest of the team? They're going to .make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.


The fans that want to constantly tear the team down every time something goes wrong and then are surprised when we never get competitive make me laugh. Merx didnt win 8 titles by firing everyone, they developed their people.
It's not hard to admit Binotto and co. Have made mistakes, but it cant be much harder to also admit they've done some good work to get us back to the top. Stop trying to tear it all down. Give them this year to see if they develop.

Leclerc had one error in Imola that cost him 3 positions, then his spin in France out of the lead. Sainz indeed had troubles to start the season. However, compared to the horrid strategy, team management, and reliability issues, the driver issues are minor.

I'm not saying fire the whole team. The chassis department has made huge strides, as well as the engine department. But with all that, it seems Ferrari are totally lost on how to handle a championship car and driver (Leclerc), and the race management needs a serious overhaul. It's simply terrible in every regard, and embarrassing to watch.

Binotto should be in charge of technical development, no more. He doesn't know good strategy, management, or how to play politics. Can he learn better? Possibly. But he's running out of time. These last 9 races he's going to be on thin ice to not have another Hungary or Monaco on his hands.

[RossTheBoss]

Personally I don't like AT ALL Marko. Horner I'm in the middle. And I don't like last years RedBull championship. It's so controversial (to be true It's almost illegal after FIAs claims that it was a human error) for my liking. I know that people say ,"Max IS the world champion and that's what matters " but not for me. If we had won the championship like them it would be so bittersweet for me ,almost I wouldn't celebrate it .
Merc on the other hand as much as I dislike them for dominating the last 8 years, I accept that they play the game brilliantly for their own sake. They didn't accept anything bad for their team "for the good of the sport "
And they always try to find way to looks legal what they demand.

You don't have to like Marko or Horner to acknowledge they're doing it right. They play to win. If you feel bad for Hamilton, don't. Did Mercedes feel bad when McLaren stole Ferrari design concepts and were still allowed to compete? Did they feel bad about Crashgate? Did they feel about running into Red Bull at Silverstone and Hungary? Did they feel about getting caught doing illegal tests in season? Nope. The FIA allowed it all, which is all they needed to feel good about it. Thoughts of Spygate, Crashgate, PirelliGate, etc, didn't bother Hamilton and Toto one bit. They celebrated and rubbed everyone's noses in what they had gotten away with.

Am I saying Ferrari should cheat? No. But they should always be looking to test the limits and throw their weight around the sport they pump life into.

[Greig]

Merc not even in F1 when spygate happened or crashgate but yeah let's praise them for not caring....

Still waiting on examples of Horner and Marko bullying the FIA to get what they want.....

[Silent Bob]

Leclerc had one error in Imola that cost him 3 positions, then his spin in France out of the lead. Sainz indeed had troubles to start the season. However, compared to the horrid strategy, team management, and reliability issues, the driver issues are minor.

I'm not saying fire the whole team. The chassis department has made huge strides, as well as the engine department. But with all that, it seems Ferrari are totally lost on how to handle a championship car and driver (Leclerc), and the race management needs a serious overhaul. It's simply terrible in every regard, and embarrassing to watch.

Binotto should be in charge of technical development, no more. He doesn't know good strategy, management, or how to play politics. Can he learn better? Possibly. But he's running out of time. These last 9 races he's going to be on thin ice to not have another Hungary or Monaco on his hands.

Binotto runs the team. I doubt hes.the one making the strategy calls. But hes smart enough to know to understand why his team made those calls and the need to let his.team learn from their errors.
Other teams.make mistakes as.well. how many times.have we heard Lewis complain to his engineers about bad calls over the radio?
And how.do you know that Binotto is a pushover in the politics of F1? Just because he doeant vent publicly like Toto and Marko doesnt mean hes some weak leader. From what I heard he stood up to Toto at the team leaders meeting and got.into a.very heated argument with him. Apparently Horner even backed him.
I really dont know.why you think or expect a team.would fix everything in one year and become.the best immediately. Especially when they've said repeatedly that they are in a building mode.

But if you do get your wish and Binotto leaves, he wont be unemployed for long and guaranteed he'll become a major thorn in our side.
And then we'll have half the fans bashing Ferrari for getting rid of him.

[Brembo]

Charles and Carlos are equally qualified as far as who can come in on the podiums. I believe that for the rest of the season Binotto will be allowed to let them race equally now that he doesn't have to try to get Mick in Carlos ' seat. Most important is sending both cars out to race in the best ready condition!! And get that pit crew up and ready!!

[Super M]

Yes they've made some errors that have cost wins but the fact that we have a chance at winning with a decent car is also due to the people you want to get rid of.

Everyone was calling for engine performance above reliability last year. Now that tune has suddenly changed. Developing the engine so quickly was bound to have issues.

Leclerc and Sainz have both cost us points. But we accept that they are still learning and we expect them to get better. Why not the rest of the team? They're going to .make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.


The fans that want to constantly tear the team down every time something goes wrong and then are surprised when we never get competitive make me laugh. Merx didnt win 8 titles by firing everyone, they developed their people.
It's not hard to admit Binotto and co. Have made mistakes, but it cant be much harder to also admit they've done some good work to get us back to the top. Stop trying to tear it all down. Give them this year to see if they develop.

Fair points there. I understand, But find it hard to agree.

But for me, I put Ferrari right up there and expect them to be world class all the time. ( We're not a minow team and that means Ferrari are expected to be on top of their game, Most fans expect this too. So whilst you have valid points, I get peed off when we make fundamental mistakes, thats all.

Can we accept mistakes ? for sure. Can we accept these novice type mistakes ?? ( Monaco, Silverstone, Hungary ) ?? a fat NO ! And this is what we don't want to see. So hence the bashing, And rightfully so.

Can they improve ?? I most certainly hope so! Coz if we don't, then we're going to be back here and vent frustrations all over again. Can you accept more mistakes again like we did in the first half ?? Perhaps you can. But the brand name Ferrari and it's fans cannot.

And now with SPA coming up, the big question on everybody's mind is, Are we going to be competitive after the new flexi floor rule change ??

Peace

[Tony]

Red Bull have been trash for 8 years, yet let's praise those guys... winning a WDC because of Masi...

This Binotto and Ferrari bashing is ridiculous, maybe a Red Bull or Mercedes forum would suit some of you better.

[Tony]

Fair points there. I understand, But find it hard to agree.

But for me, I put Ferrari right up there and expect them to be world class all the time. ( We're not a minow team and that means Ferrari are expected to be on top of their game, Most fans expect this too. So whilst you have valid points, I get peed off when we make fundamental mistakes, thats all.

Can we accept mistakes ? for sure. Can we accept these novice type mistakes ?? ( Monaco, Silverstone, Hungary ) ?? a fat NO ! And this is what we don't want to see. So hence the bashing, And rightfully so.

Can they improve ?? I most certainly hope so! Coz if we don't, then we're going to be back here and vent frustrations all over again. Can you accept more mistakes again like we did in the first half ?? Perhaps you can. But the brand name Ferrari and it's fans cannot.

And now with SPA coming up, the big question on everybody's mind is, Are we going to be competitive after the new flexi floor rule change ??

Peace

Surely we must give them the time to get there, when you see progress generally speaking that is a good sign. I expect Binotto to make changes, which he will, despite what he says to the media. He's protecting his team because he does not want to recreate a culture of fear that has dominated the organization for decades. He's done more well than poorly. If we're still having the same discussion in 2 years time, then it will demonstrate a weakness. But for the moment, with all that has improved so far in the team, I think patience is in order.

[RossTheBoss]

Red Bull have been trash for 8 years, yet let's praise those guys... winning a WDC because of Masi...

This Binotto and Ferrari bashing is ridiculous, maybe a Red Bull or Mercedes forum would suit some of you better.

LOL! Red Bull won the same number of races as Ferrari did 14-20', so I guess that makes Ferrari trash.

Binotto has earned the public bashing he's getting. The number of races he's thrown away, the disrespect he's shown the best driver Ferrari has had since Alonso, and the general level of incompetence he's shown at the track has been astonishing and embarrassing for the team. If he wants mine and others respect, he'll have to earn it back with results.

[RossTheBoss]

Binotto runs the team. I doubt hes.the one making the strategy calls. But hes smart enough to know to understand why his team made those calls and the need to let his.team learn from their errors.
Other teams.make mistakes as.well. how many times.have we heard Lewis complain to his engineers about bad calls over the radio?
And how.do you know that Binotto is a pushover in the politics of F1? Just because he doeant vent publicly like Toto and Marko doesnt mean hes some weak leader. From what I heard he stood up to Toto at the team leaders meeting and got.into a.very heated argument with him. Apparently Horner even backed him.
I really dont know.why you think or expect a team.would fix everything in one year and become.the best immediately. Especially when they've said repeatedly that they are in a building mode.

But if you do get your wish and Binotto leaves, he wont be unemployed for long and guaranteed he'll become a major thorn in our side.
And then we'll have half the fans bashing Ferrari for getting rid of him.

How many mistakes must Binotto make before he crosses a line in unacceptable incompetence? He's had 4 years to get his act together.

And no, I don't give Binotto credit for "improving" the car. Ferrari's uncompetitive form in 20' and 21' was down to the team being caught cheating the engine regs, courtesy and embarrassingly thanks to Binotto. That scandal was an omen of things to come under Binotto's leadership thus far.

[Greig]

LOL! Red Bull won the same number of races as Ferrari did 14-20', so I guess that makes Ferrari trash.

Binotto has earned the public bashing he's getting. The number of races he's thrown away, the disrespect he's shown the best driver Ferrari has had since Alonso, and the general level of incompetence he's shown at the track has been astonishing and embarrassing for the team. If he wants mine and others respect, he'll have to earn it back with results.

How could Red Bull with ruthless trained drivers, Horner and Marko throwing their weight about still only win the same amount as Ferrari????

Crazy stuff......

[Silent Bob]

How many mistakes must Binotto make before he crosses a line in unacceptable incompetence? He's had 4 years to get his act together.



And no, I don't give Binotto credit for "improving" the car. Ferrari's uncompetitive form in 20' and 21' was down to the team being caught cheating the engine regs, courtesy and embarrassingly thanks to Binotto. That scandal was an omen of things to come under Binotto's leadership thus far.

Please list all the mistakes Binotto has made.
The 2019 engine was legal until the FIA closed the loophole just like this years car with its skid blocks.

He brought Carlos in as a driver. How many people wanted him gone after the first few races of the season? Now.that hes.had time.to come.around no one is calling for his firing .

Car is one of the best. Engine is one of the best.
You want Binotto gone because some of his team have made bad strat calls and you put that on him. You blame him for 2020 and 2021 but wont credit him for 2022 except for the mistakes.
Who's the superman you have in mind that will step right in and make everything perfect without needing time to build?
Red bull allowed their team to grow, Merc allowed their team to grow. You want us in perpetual chaos where mistakes are not tolerated and removal is the the answer. The team.will not be fixed by firing all our best employees and driving them to other teams.

[Tony]

LOL! Red Bull won the same number of races as Ferrari did 14-20', so I guess that makes Ferrari trash.

Binotto has earned the public bashing he's getting. The number of races he's thrown away, the disrespect he's shown the best driver Ferrari has had since Alonso, and the general level of incompetence he's shown at the track has been astonishing and embarrassing for the team. If he wants mine and others respect, he'll have to earn it back with results.

Are you suggesting Ferrari has been good in the last decade? I'm certainly not, Binotto's Ferrari though, is the best Ferrari has been since the Schumacher era. Your comments about Red Bull don't make sense, sorry...

[RossTheBoss]

Are you suggesting Ferrari has been good in the last decade? I'm certainly not, Binotto's Ferrari though, is the best Ferrari has been since the Schumacher era. Your comments about Red Bull don't make sense, sorry...

Actually, yes. Ferrari have been good. In fact, very good. It just doesn't feel like it because they haven't won a title in some time. Since Red Bull began winning titles in 2010, Ferrari have won 32 races and have only finished outside the top 3 in the WCC twice in 13 seasons. That's a record Renault, BMW, Honda, Toyota, McLaren, etc would love to trade for any day of the week.

It's just Ferrari have missed that extra sauce of perfection to be able to win titles in over a decade.

[RossTheBoss]

Please list all the mistakes Binotto has made.
The 2019 engine was legal until the FIA closed the loophole just like this years car with its skid blocks.

He brought Carlos in as a driver. How many people wanted him gone after the first few races of the season? Now.that hes.had time.to come.around no one is calling for his firing .

Car is one of the best. Engine is one of the best.
You want Binotto gone because some of his team have made bad strat calls and you put that on him. You blame him for 2020 and 2021 but wont credit him for 2022 except for the mistakes.
Who's the superman you have in mind that will step right in and make everything perfect without needing time to build?
Red bull allowed their team to grow, Merc allowed their team to grow. You want us in perpetual chaos where mistakes are not tolerated and removal is the the answer. The team.will not be fixed by firing all our best employees and driving them to other teams.

1. No, the engine wasn't legal at all in 19'. Let's not BS and pretend Ferrari didn't get caught out. It was a stupid think to be caught doing. Yes, every team cheats, but Binotto broke the cardinal rule of it: don't get caught.

2. I agree that way too many people were quick to demand Sainz gone, and that's he's actually a good driver.

3. The buck stops with Binotto, or else it's stopping with Elkann behind the scenes and we just don't know it.

4. Grow? What are you talking about? Ferrari are the oldest team in F1. They should know how to do basic race strategy.

The problem is very, very obvious. Rueda is a disaster. He's been the weakest link for over a decade. His mistakes have become unforgivable at this point, his drivers have zero confidence in his strategies. Binoto and Elkaan should've sacked Rueda and his clown show after Silverstone, but instead they've been allowed to make a mockery of the whole team.

IDK whether Rueda has some family ties to Ferrari management or what, but it's absurd that he isn't gone after disasters in Miami, Monaco, Britain, France, and Hungary. Whoever is allowing Rueda to keep his job, be it Binotto or Elkaan, should lose theirs in the winter, and you won't convince me otherwise.

[aroutis]

1. No, the engine wasn't legal at all in 19'.

According to ? AFAIK there is no FIA decision that declares said engine as ILLEGAL.
So please provide one, and no, I don't want to see sites and stuff, I am not interested in such things.

[JPZ]

According to ? AFAIK there is no FIA decision that declares said engine as ILLEGAL.
So please provide one, and no, I don't want to see sites and stuff, I am not interested in such things.

Correct.

[JPZ]

Despite everything, I believe Ferrari is at the best level since 2007-2008.

Personally, I support Binotto.

The car concept was exceptional, the engine development strategy was long-term and has created an extremely powerful and innovative engine which will eventually be reliable.

The only weakness is the strategy department and surely the process/system they use will be re-assessed.

[aroutis]

Correct.

Exploiting a loophole does not make things illegal. The fact is that ferrari (IMHO) did not fight enough for this and we accepted to change our engine, which cost us , since we ended up with a diffferent engine and a car made for the 2019 engine.
We all know what this meant for 2020.

However, people need to understand what "illegal" means and loopholes are in this sport and try not to read bs sites such as (random example) PF1.