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Thread: Ferrari has cost cap concerns

  1. #1
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    Ferrari has cost cap concerns

    Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto says that F1 needs to guarantee that no one can bust the budget cap limits, as that could prove decisive in the world championship battle.

    “[The budget cap] will influence the rate of development,” he said after seeing Charles Leclerc maintain his lead in the drivers’ standings after the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix.

    “I think that is a key element and my concern is that we need to make sure that we've got the right policing on that because it can be, let me say, a game changer in the fight for developments.”

    Speaking before the weekend, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said teams were going to have to be far more strategic with their upgrade plans.

    “I think pretty much every team is pretty close to the limit this year,” he said. “It’s very aggressive so you have to be very strategic in how you apply your funds to developments.

    “I think rather than just running as fast as you can and getting as much performance from the car, you’ve got to be much more selective in what you chose, based on its cost. So it drives efficiency.”


    Question - how do you stop RB and Alpha Tauri collaboration when it comes to using wind tunnels? How do are these BS rules supposed to be checked when Marko said RB and AT will be sharing technical knowledge?

    Binotto’s comments come in the wake of similar remarks from F1 CEO Stefano Domenicali, who says that there are two concerns he has about the implementation of the budget cap in 2022.

    “The first is that of control, because if those who have to regulate miss something, the whole system collapses,” he said.

    “Today, it is not enough to check only the technical side, but a strict financial control is also needed, and for this reason the FIA is equipping itself to be even more robust in its role as guarantor.

    “The second point relates to some variables that were difficult to predict at the time of the launch of the financial regulations.

    “Inflation is going in an unforeseeable direction, and transportation costs have also gone up in recent weeks in a way that is difficult to predict.

    “There will be discussions to find the right solutions, but always keeping at the centre the principle that we must guarantee everyone the same possibilities.”

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    My question is how does FIA regulate RB and AT considering last year Marko said RB and AT will be now sharing joint technical information. How can one monitor wind tunnel time? I will be shocked if RB don't take advantage of their 2nd team.

    The rules played 100% into their hands

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    Seems like concerns that should have been addressed before the cap got put into place. I agree with a budget cap, but I have always questioned how they police it. Seems like it would be way too easy to fudge the books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Seems like concerns that should have been addressed before the cap got put into place. I agree with a budget cap, but I have always questioned how they police it. Seems like it would be way too easy to fudge the books.
    Anyone that has anything to do with systems architecture (yours truly has been doing this for almost 30 years), knows that a system without control is not a system.
    That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that although cost reduction as an idea has merit, if you cannot control it and put the breaks to those that will go and exploit it, it's a stupid idea.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Is there any chance, that since Binotto brought it up ,the FIA to be more careful with their checks??I mean like everything else that some team protest or asking explanations about another team and then the FIA start more thorough tests . Or the teams that had in mind to somehow bypass the system and spend more money ,now they have to be more careful because someone is keeping an eye on them???
    FERRARI FOR EVER !!!!!!!

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    The only way to ensure the cap is maintained is to have clear requirements and to have the financial information audited. I didn't realize they were leaving such a crucial measure down to the honor system...
    Rest in Peace Leza, you were a true warrior...

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    Who can control those who are in control of finance? Money talks! Possible fines are figured in when a move is made. Masi got away clean !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    The only way to ensure the cap is maintained is to have clear requirements and to have the financial information audited. I didn't realize they were leaving such a crucial measure down to the honor system...
    This is why budget caps are pure. Hire a good accountant and hide the money just in case you are audited, then develop as much as you want.

    If I was Binotto this is what I would do:

    Ferrari sets up a new Skunk Works division for a new road car. The Super Enzo... whatever you wanna call it.
    - Run the wind tunnel 24/7 developing the aero for this new road car.
    - Run the engine dyno 24/7 for this new road car.
    - Then all of a sudden, oh look, Ferrari Skunk Works found something and shared it with Ferrari F1. Now we have a new floor and diffuser. We didn't develop it, they did and just "shared" the information with us. We didn't spend any money on it.

    Seriously take every advantage you have! Stop being so meek.
    I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01 View Post
    This is why budget caps are pure BS. Hire a good accountant and hide the money just in case you are audited, then develop as much as you want.

    If I was Binotto this is what I would do:

    Ferrari sets up a new Skunk Works division for a new road car. The Super Enzo... whatever you wanna call it.
    - Run the wind tunnel 24/7 developing the aero for this new road car.
    - Run the engine dyno 24/7 for this new road car.
    - Then all of a sudden, oh look, Ferrari Skunk Works found something and shared it with Ferrari F1. Now we have a new floor and diffuser. We didn't develop it, they did and just "shared" the information with us. We didn't spend any money on it.

    Seriously take every advantage you have! Stop being so meek.
    I agree, however that's why you need clear regulations that address these issues. If they did not work this properly into their framework, they did that intentionally as far I'm concerned. At which point, yeah, take advantage of it. Hopefully Ferrari has a win at all stakes mentality, because RB and Merc definitely will do the same.
    Rest in Peace Leza, you were a true warrior...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01 View Post
    This is why budget caps are pure. Hire a good accountant and hide the money just in case you are audited, then develop as much as you want.

    If I was Binotto this is what I would do:

    Ferrari sets up a new Skunk Works division for a new road car. The Super Enzo... whatever you wanna call it.
    - Run the wind tunnel 24/7 developing the aero for this new road car.
    - Run the engine dyno 24/7 for this new road car.
    - Then all of a sudden, oh look, Ferrari Skunk Works found something and shared it with Ferrari F1. Now we have a new floor and diffuser. We didn't develop it, they did and just "shared" the information with us. We didn't spend any money on it.

    Seriously take every advantage you have! Stop being so meek.
    Ferrari are fully supporting the budget cap, they want a budget cap.

    We have no reason to cheat.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    I agree, however that's why you need clear regulations that address these issues. If they did not work this properly into their framework, they did that intentionally as far I'm concerned. At which point, yeah, take advantage of it. Hopefully Ferrari has a win at all stakes mentality, because RB and Merc definitely will do the same.
    I think Greig is answering this below. It would appear there is no iron clad mechanism to detect cheating. For Ferrari to assume Merc and RBR won't is inviting failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Ferrari are fully supporting the budget cap, they want a budget cap.

    We have no reason to cheat.
    The reason is always the same. To win. Period. It's the reason Merc do what they have done since 2014.

    I hope I am wrong but if there really is no way for the FIA to validate spending, and Ferrari wont exploit the situation as their rivals will/may/are, then Ferrari will lose yet again.
    I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01 View Post
    I think Greig is answering this below. It would appear there is no iron clad mechanism to detect cheating. For Ferrari to assume Merc and RBR won't is inviting failure.



    The reason is always the same. To win. Period. It's the reason Merc do what they have done since 2014.

    I hope I am wrong but if there really is no way for the FIA to validate spending, and Ferrari wont exploit the situation as their rivals will/may/are, then Ferrari will lose yet again.
    i've had all these exact same thoughts...

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    Ferrari; R Bull; Merc; now it's Ferrari's turn to be back on top . They surely have 2 drivers who are capable and the car is right up there. Fans by the millions and sponsors want Ferrari back on top! $$$

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Ferrari are fully supporting the budget cap, they want a budget cap.

    We have no reason to cheat.
    If everyone else is breaking the regulations, Ferrari would be a bunch of idiots if they stayed in the clean side.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    If everyone else is breaking the regulations, Ferrari would be a bunch of idiots if they stayed in the clean side.
    Who is breaking them?
    Forza Ferrari

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    I never got any answer about things like : Wind tunnel time, CFD time, GFLOPS etc
    Who prevents Mercedes F1 to send the data in the cloud solution of Mercedes Benz?
    Or RB to run a simulation in an AWS account paid by Rad Bull drinks?
    etc etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Who is breaking them?
    Did you miss the part where aroutis said "IF"?
    I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tpe View Post
    I never got any answer about things like : Wind tunnel time, CFD time, GFLOPS etc
    Who prevents Mercedes F1 to send the data in the cloud solution of Mercedes Benz?
    Or RB to run a simulation in an AWS account paid by Rad Bull drinks?
    etc etc etc
    No one... hens my comment above. Ferrari can run the wind tunnel 24/7 and say it's for a new road car.
    I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01 View Post
    Did you miss the part where aroutis said "IF"?
    No, but seems you and he has already decided others will not stick the cap....what if you are wrong.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Who is breaking them?
    I believe I say "IF".
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    No, but seems you and he has already decided others will not stick the cap....what if you are wrong.
    Maybe you need to learn to let others say what they think instead of assuming what they believe. How about it?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Maybe you need to learn to let others say what they think instead of assuming what they believe. How about it?
    No truer words were ever spoken!!! Another great saying is " Practice what you preach! "

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Maybe you need to learn to let others say what they think instead of assuming what they believe. How about it?
    So you have no idea if anyone will break it or not, but if Ferrari don't they are idiots?

    So when do Ferrari start to break it just in case others do? What if Ferrari decide to break it then others don't? What if nobody breaks it?
    Forza Ferrari

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    The budget cap shouldn't be there to make middling teams compete for wins, it should be to prevent the big teams from eating themselves like Mercedes have done with their monstrous budgets in the past few years. Having said that, any budget cap should be high enough that McLaren and Aston Martin can't reach it or else it'll become a bit of a running joke like MotoGP having a new winner every weekend now. That being said, I'm sure Haas and Alfa are sharing all their windtunnel info with us at the moment so we're probably quite well off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso Svedese View Post
    The budget cap shouldn't be there to make middling teams compete for wins, it should be to prevent the big teams from eating themselves like Mercedes have done with their monstrous budgets in the past few years. Having said that, any budget cap should be high enough that McLaren and Aston Martin can't reach it or else it'll become a bit of a running joke like MotoGP having a new winner every weekend now. That being said, I'm sure Haas and Alfa are sharing all their windtunnel info with us at the moment so we're probably quite well off.
    Why would we not want more competition? Shouldn't success be based off who did the better job and not just who spent the most money?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So you have no idea if anyone will break it or not, but if Ferrari don't they are idiots?

    So when do Ferrari start to break it just in case others do? What if Ferrari decide to break it then others don't? What if nobody breaks it?
    Let's try this again.
    hypothetical
    /ˌhʌɪpəˈθɛtɪk(ə)l/
    Learn to pronounce
    See definitions in:
    All
    Philosophy
    Logic
    adjective
    based on or serving as a hypothesis.
    "let us take a hypothetical case"
    noun
    a hypothetical proposition or statement.
    "officials refuse to discuss military policy except in coy hypotheticals"
    So, making a hypothetical, if others were to break the budget cap, yes, Ferrari would be idiots if they did not follow suit.

    There you go , I am sure now you 'll understand.

    Cheers
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    No truer words were ever spoken!!! Another great saying is " Practice what you preach! "
    Oh but I always do.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Let's try this again.

    So, making a hypothetical, if others were to break the budget cap, yes, Ferrari would be idiots if they did not follow suit.

    There you go , I am sure now you 'll understand.

    Cheers
    So Ferrari would have to already assume others will break it if they are to do the same right? Why would Ferrari be idiots for following the rules?

    Calling out the team as idiots for something that has not happened is a new level for you though.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Let's try this again.

    So, making a hypothetical, if others were to break the budget cap, yes, Ferrari would be idiots if they did not follow suit.

    There you go , I am sure now you 'll understand.

    Cheers
    So Ferrari would have to already assume others will break it if they are to do the same right? Why would Ferrari be idiots for following the rules?

    Calling out the team as idiots for something that has not happened is a new level for you though.
    Do you gents actually read the others posts with any attempt at understanding?

    aroutis clearly says "if others were to break the budget cap...." Do you understand the meaning of "if"? That is an "after the event" condition. Greig, you are implying aroutis is supporting a pre-emptive "assumption" ... this is a figment of your imagination. Likewise your assertion that Ferrari would have to already assume others will breach the cap. aroutis clearly hypothesises that other teams have broken the cap ... no assumption, they have breached.

    Personally I disagree with aroutis that it would be grounds for Ferrari to also breach. I think Ferrari, given this set of facts, should still do the principled thing and seek remedy and compensation for the breaches rather than following suit and also breaching the cap. IMO that would be the right thing for Ferrari to do.

    Why don't you both try and understand each other?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    No, but seems you and he has already decided others will not stick the cap....what if you are wrong.
    You hold too much faith in people, and don't place enough importance on winning.
    I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good

    Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you.

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