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Thread: 2023 Saudi Arabian GP: Post Race Analysis

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    2023 Saudi Arabian GP: Post Race Analysis

    They call it a street circuit, but that's a stretch. FIA should again be under fire for incompetence... read on.

    Red Bull unsurprisingly was the fastest car, and by some margin. Sergio Perez is getting a lot of praise for being a street circuit ace, but let's be honest, his poles and wins are coming from when Max has issues. Never the less, his drove a great race and did what he needed to do. After the safety car, Max was close enough to be a threat for the win, and Perez maintained his gap which is huge. Alonso predicted Verstappen would be up to 2nd by lap 25, and he did exactly that. Their car has such a top speed advantage that it makes passing easy. Sky Sports were certainly keen on talking about how great the car is, vs when Mercedes passed cars easily, it was down to the driver. It seemed Red Bull took advantage of track limits, appearing to almost deliberately cutting the chicane. This could gain upwards of half a second, and they apparently could do it 3 times before getting a penalty? It didn't make any difference to the results, but it should not be allowed.

    Mercedes inherit an undeserving podium. A mental health day will need to be taken for all the Mercedes fans as it was still not a win, and Toto will release another sad letter. Jokes aside, the Mercedes look strong, and in a better position than last year. A strong fight to be 2nd best. George Russell was clearly the better driver all weekend. Hamilton had a brief shot on the medium tires, but didn't make anything of it.

    Aston Martin perhaps robbed? Alonso made a silly mistake in his grid position and the penalty was deserved. We saw this in the last race with Ocon, so every driver should know better, let alone the most experienced driver on the grid. However, go back to Brazil Sprint Race 2022 when a few drivers started outside their box, notably Lewis Hamilton who was half a car width outside his box and no penalties were given because "the cars are so big". The cars are just as big now. Alonso stayed calm and drove a brilliant race once again, only to have it taken away because a mechanic touched the car before the 5 seconds was up. Ocon had the exact same thing happen last race, so the teams should know better! Like come on! But wait, did the jack actually touch the car? With the mechanic's legs in the way, it was not 100% conclusive. FIA apparently didn't see anything wrong until Mercedes complained. Sorry, but there is so much wrong with this story. And it doesn't end there. In Bahrain, the Stewards got it wrong by giving a 10 second penalty to Ocon, and they got it wrong again with Alonso. IF the team failed to serve the penalty correctly, then the existing penalty still applies and needs to be served. Drivers get 5 second penalties during the race all the time, and if not served during the race it gets applied after the race. Given Alonso's team waited 5 seconds before actual work, they effectively received 15 seconds in penalties. As for Stroll, a tough DNF. They need to finish the races while the car is second best.

    Ferrari are not looking in good shape. The car is not only miles off of the Red Bull's, but it seems to be a step behind AM and right around Mercedes. Speed is an issue, tire wear is an issue, and so is reliability. Sainz looked to be struggling. Slow in qualifying, had no defense, no attack, and no pace in the race. Leclerc was driving as good as anyone on the soft tires, but once stuck behind Sainz on the hard tires, his race was finished. Expectations of a podium only to come away with 6th and 7th. Not good enough.

    Alpine had a very good result. It could be the start to another up and down season, but the low drag configurations seem to suit their car. They could be early favorites for the 5th best team. Ocon and Gasly both drove equally well.

    Haas right in the hunt for the final points. KMag had a great battle with Yuki for the final point. Hulkenburg appears to be the outright faster driver, but Magnussen is still able to perform in the race.

    AlphaTauri also in that fight. Tsunoda still isn't established as being a very good driver, but it appears he has made another good step forward. That, or De Vries is really underperforming.

    Alfa Romeo didn't look very good at all. However it's looking better and better for Zhou who continues to improve all the time. Bottas, what in the hell? Race is coming to an end, he's on soft tires and is 32 seconds behind the next to last running car, and then he asks if there is a problem? Sadly, the answer from the team was no. If the car was fine, this has to be one of the worst performances by any driver. Latifi level of bad. To think, he could have won a few championships in a Mercedes if Hamilton wasn't his teammate.

    McLaren still have a terrible package. It was fascinating to see the drag race against the Williams with the same engine, and the McLaren just drops back. Brundle was quick to point out the McLaren appears to have a load of drag. It didn't help that both drivers lost their front wings early on, but points didn't look likely regardless. Oscar beating Lando in his second race has to be a big boost.

    Williams at the bottom in a race that suited their car. Terrible result. Tough break for Albon, as he was in the hunt for points. Logan still shows he is much better than anticipated, but to finish 16th in a race where the car had a shot for points, eh. There will be more chances for Williams to come. Eventually the team needs to make big gains fast, as we can't forget they have the most CFD and Wind Tunnel time for the 3rd straight year.

    Driver of the Day: Max Verstappen. 15th to 2nd and probably had a shot of winning if it wasn't for the mystery driveshaft issue. Perez gets an honorable mention because he pushed hard and mistake free with Max 5 seconds behind.
    Last edited by SS454; 19th March 2023 at 20:04.

  2. #2
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    The Gap to RB is too big to reduce with updates as we were 1.5 sec off

    we need to consider the transition to a different concept like Mercedes.

    Screw the cost cap. We need to do whatever it takes to win.

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    Yep fancy launch all show with a ferrari with no go
    For what its worth write the year off, vassuer has a hard head and it will take some convincing a couple more races like this and they will scrap the concept no choice.Use it as a test and development season break the cap like redbull around the same amount and recruit outside of Italy.Only good can be generated.

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    @SS454, thank you for analysis, but it can be easy sums up in just bring on 20xx. Where each can write last to digits. Personally I don't have courage to write anything, as I don't see any light in this very dark tunnel

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    Quote Originally Posted by JacKy View Post
    The Gap to RB is too big to reduce with updates as we were 1.5 sec off

    we need to consider the transition to a different concept like Mercedes.

    Screw the cost cap. We need to do whatever it takes to win.
    Completely agree. I reckoned the F1-75 was not that good. Instead, it was the other teams weren’t ready. I hope Fred can clean up the mess, especially the work ethics protected by Mattia. (Think 2029 when Mattia said it was Sergio who pushed to find grey area, that’s hypocritical as a leader, to me)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    They call it a street circuit, but that's a stretch. FIA should again be under fire for incompetence... read on.

    Red Bull unsurprisingly was the fastest car, and by some margin. Sergio Perez is getting a lot of praise for being a street circuit ace, but let's be honest, his poles and wins are coming from when Max has issues. Never the less, his drove a great race and did what he needed to do. After the safety car, Max was close enough to be a threat for the win, and Perez maintained his gap which is huge. Alonso predicted Verstappen would be up to 2nd by lap 25, and he did exactly that. Their car has such a top speed advantage that it makes passing easy. Sky Sports were certainly keen on talking about how great the car is, vs when Mercedes passed cars easily, it was down to the driver. It seemed Red Bull took advantage of track limits, appearing to almost deliberately cutting the chicane. This could gain upwards of half a second, and they apparently could do it 3 times before getting a penalty? It didn't make any difference to the results, but it should not be allowed.

    Mercedes inherit an undeserving podium. A mental health day will need to be taken for all the Mercedes fans as it was still not a win, and Toto will release another sad letter. Jokes aside, the Mercedes look strong, and in a better position than last year. A strong fight to be 2nd best. George Russell was clearly the better driver all weekend. Hamilton had a brief shot on the medium tires, but didn't make anything of it.

    Aston Martin perhaps robbed? Alonso made a silly mistake in his grid position and the penalty was deserved. We saw this in the last race with Ocon, so every driver should know better, let alone the most experienced driver on the grid. However, go back to Brazil Sprint Race 2022 when a few drivers started outside their box, notably Lewis Hamilton who was half a car width outside his box and no penalties were given because "the cars are so big". The cars are just as big now. Alonso stayed calm and drove a brilliant race once again, only to have it taken away because a mechanic touched the car before the 5 seconds was up. Ocon had the exact same thing happen last race, so the teams should know better! Like come on! But wait, did the jack actually touch the car? With the mechanic's legs in the way, it was not 100% conclusive. FIA apparently didn't see anything wrong until Mercedes complained. Sorry, but there is so much wrong with this story. And it doesn't end there. In Bahrain, the Stewards got it wrong by giving a 10 second penalty to Ocon, and they got it wrong again with Alonso. IF the team failed to serve the penalty correctly, then the existing penalty still applies and needs to be served. Drivers get 5 second penalties during the race all the time, and if not served during the race it gets applied after the race. Given Alonso's team waited 5 seconds before actual work, they effectively received 15 seconds in penalties. As for Stroll, a tough DNF. They need to finish the races while the car is second best.

    Ferrari are not looking in good shape. The car is not only miles off of the Red Bull's, but it seems to be a step behind AM and right around Mercedes. Speed is an issue, tire wear is an issue, and so is reliability. Sainz looked to be struggling. Slow in qualifying, had no defense, no attack, and no pace in the race. Leclerc was driving as good as anyone on the soft tires, but once stuck behind Sainz on the hard tires, his race was finished. Expectations of a podium only to come away with 6th and 7th. Not good enough.

    Alpine had a very good result. It could be the start to another up and down season, but the low drag configurations seem to suit their car. They could be early favorites for the 5th best team. Ocon and Gasly both drove equally well.

    Haas right in the hunt for the final points. KMag had a great battle with Yuki for the final point. Hulkenburg appears to be the outright faster driver, but Magnussen is still able to perform in the race.

    AlphaTauri also in that fight. Tsunoda still isn't established as being a very good driver, but it appears he has made another good step forward. That, or De Vries is really underperforming.

    Alfa Romeo didn't look very good at all. However it's looking better and better for Zhou who continues to improve all the time. Bottas, what in the hell? Race is coming to an end, he's on soft tires and is 32 seconds behind the next to last running car, and then he asks if there is a problem? Sadly, the answer from the team was no. If the car was fine, this has to be one of the worst performances by any driver. Latifi level of bad. To think, he could have won a few championships in a Mercedes if Hamilton wasn't his teammate.

    McLaren still have a terrible package. It was fascinating to see the drag race against the Williams with the same engine, and the McLaren just drops back. Brundle was quick to point out the McLaren appears to have a load of drag. It didn't help that both drivers lost their front wings early on, but points didn't look likely regardless. Oscar beating Lando in his second race has to be a big boost.

    Williams at the bottom in a race that suited their car. Terrible result. Tough break for Albon, as he was in the hunt for points. Logan still shows he is much better than anticipated, but to finish 16th in a race where the car had a shot for points, eh. There will be more chances for Williams to come. Eventually the team needs to make big gains fast, as we can't forget they have the most CFD and Wind Tunnel time for the 3rd straight year.

    Driver of the Day: Max Verstappen. 15th to 2nd and probably had a shot of winning if it wasn't for the mystery driveshaft issue. Perez gets an honorable mention because he pushed hard and mistake free with Max 5 seconds behind.
    Thank you for the analysis. I thought we are 4th or 5th. Coming to Australia, I’m afraid Alpine is going head-to-head with us

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    I think Ferrari will battle with Mercedes until Mercedes bring out their Red Bull style body work. Of course other teams wont question the resources required to bring out a 4th car in 2 years, but that's another topic.

    Last year Ferrari started to season with a very very powerful PU. Arguably the best on the grid. Red Bull always had the top speed advantage because for some reason they don't have any clipping at the end of the straight, but Ferrari had phenomenal acceleration. Then they started blowing up engines, and it's like Ferrari's only solution was to detune the PU, and their power seems average ever since.

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    Even with budget cap penalties, red bull have excelled knowing they are coming,they poured there heart and soul into a magnificent f1 car,this is to be applauded no matter who you support. Ferrari play the assumation game thinking that they are automatically 2nd best and will catch red bull with cap penalties and that others are behind anyway,how very wrong the scuderia ferrari f1 organisation has been caught with there pants down again and pulling them up will not be easy 4th best at this point of the f1 season ouch.

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    So far Sainz 20 pts , Charles 6 pts . Alonso 30 pts ! Plenty of races left!!

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    On a positive note we had the fastest pitstops and the strategy was ok now all we need is the car!!!!!! Can we improve??????


    Forza Jules

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    If this calamitous state in which Ferrari has been for decades now continues, I think it's time to consider a permanent retreat from F1. There's always GT and the other races where Ferrari has been good over the years. F1 isn't one of them anymore.
    Last edited by Whatsyourangle; 21st March 2023 at 11:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whatsyourangle View Post
    If this calamitous state in which Ferrari has been for decades now continues, I think it's time to consider a permanent retreat from F1. There's always GT and the other races where Ferrari has been good over the years. F1 isn't one of them anymore.
    I think that Ferrari's racing image is F1 so they can't retreat, as it would have a bad effect on the road car business. Instead of throwing in the towel they should act like a RACING TEAM and start winning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samboozik View Post
    I think that Ferrari's racing image is F1 so they can't retreat, as it would have a bad effect on the road car business. Instead of throwing in the towel they should act like a RACING TEAM and start winning.
    F1, whether Ferrari wins or loses, has no bearing on their road car business. Ferrari's production cars sell, and quite well mind you, regardless whether they win in F1 or lose in F1.....or quit in F1.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    F1, whether Ferrari wins or loses, has no bearing on their road car business. Ferrari's production cars sell, and quite well mind you, regardless whether they win in F1 or lose in F1.....or quit in F1.
    Ferrari have never quit F1 to make such a claim.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Ferrari have never quit F1 to make such a claim.
    So Ferrari has to stay in F1 in order to sell their production cars?
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Ferrari have never quit F1 to make such a claim.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So Ferrari has to stay in F1 in order to sell their production cars?
    Yes it gives them a much needed exposure and a marketing platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samboozik View Post
    Yes it gives them a much needed exposure and a marketing platform.
    LOL......Ferrari production cars are world known. Salesmen at the Ferrari dealership don't use F1 to sell Ferrari cars. Ferrari production cars sell themselves without F1.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    LOL......Ferrari production cars are world known. Salesmen at the Ferrari dealership don't use F1 to sell Ferrari cars. Ferrari production cars sell themselves without F1.
    OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    So Ferrari has to stay in F1 in order to sell their production cars?
    Who knows?

    I know you have no connection to Ferrari's DNA and history, but the road cars were only made to fund F1. I get that you would happily rip all that up but I would think your in the minority.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Who knows?

    I know you have no connection to Ferrari's DNA and history, but the road cars were only made to fund F1. I get that you would happily rip all that up but I would think your in the minority.
    Ladies and gentlemen, we have a psychic on the forum. He can now read peoples minds........
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen, we have a psychic on the forum. He can now read peoples minds........
    Says the guy who just told us Ferrari don't need F1 to sell road cars without any evidence

    Also the guy who wants to move Ferrari to the UK
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Says the guy who just told us Ferrari don't need F1 to sell road cars without any evidence

    Also the guy who wants to move Ferrari to the UK
    I've been in several Ferrari dealerships(Austin and Houston) and not one of the salesmen knew anything about Ferrari F1 at the time.

    Ferrari production cars sell themselves. Have you seen the ticker:RACE on the NYSE since it opened? How's it doing?
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    We need to change the concept to RB like Mercedes.We can broke the rule with budget cup ok but we have fast car.Red bull broke budget rule and spent more money.Did FIA something to Red Bull only money fine ? Nothing.Lets do new car Mr.Vasser .Your car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    I've been in several Ferrari dealerships(Austin and Houston) and not one of the salesmen knew anything about Ferrari F1 at the time.

    Ferrari production cars sell themselves. Have you seen the ticker:RACE on the NYSE since it opened? How's it doing?
    But you the customer knew....duh
    Forza Ferrari

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    Not that it is relevant to the thread at all but here.. have some info

    https://carsalesbase.com/us-ferrari/

    2000-2005, Ferrari in domination. Sold 7452 cars in the USA.
    2012-2017, No championships, many bad seasons. Ferrari sold 12,786 cars in the USA.

    So certainly can't say there is any connection in sales based on Ferrari's F1 success or failures.

    Does F1 help Ferrari sales? Probably. Would Ferrari still sell their cars as elite expensive luxury cars without being in F1? Absolutely

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