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Thread: Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene22n View Post
    Yes, Ferrari probably thought Felipe would develop into a top notch driver. He didn't. Either try again and perhaps succeed, or as you point out get a top notch proven driver to begin with like Kubica (given hes healthy).
    He's not, though.

    Using your logic, we should sign Vettel.

    Quote Originally Posted by eugene22n View Post
    I'm of the opinion that Ferrari should never be developing a driver directly but rather using Sauber or another to do so through the FDA.
    I am of the opinion that we should just buy the driver. See Alonso, Fernando and Schumacher, Michael

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  2. #332
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    There are drivers that may not want to move to Ferrari no matter the money. Vettel is probably one of those right now.

    I would say Rosberg, Perez, Kobayashi, di Resta, Hulkenburg, Grosjean and Timo Glock are all worthy of a chance at a top seat. Some more than others. All seem like they aren't attached to their current team.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    Also, Michael is obviously on the downside of the age/performance curve....
    I bet you wouldn't say that if he was a bottle of wine!!

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
    The vultures sure are coming out now.
    No vultures. That's only reality you hear knocking at the door. The reality of the situation is a driver, any driver, who drives for the greatest F1 team of all time can only under-perform for so long until something gives. I mean you don't seriously expect Ferrari to keep Felipe on as a driver performing at the level he is at right now do you? Even worse are there are no indications anything will change. A team is only as good as it's weakest link. Ferrari's main goal for being in Formula One is to win Constructors Titles something that is currently impossible with the current driver lineup unless Felipe does a complete 180. Which looks more and more unlikely as the season progresses.
    Felipe has had unwavering loyalty & support for 2 & 1/2 years. Patience are starting to wear thing and soon that knocking you hear will turn to pounding, the door will open and Ferrari will have a new driver unless something changes quickly.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucial_Xtreme View Post
    ...A team is only as good as it's weakest link. Ferrari's main goal for being in Formula One is to win Constructors Titles something that is currently impossible...

    Felipe has had unwavering loyalty & support for 2 & 1/2 years. Patience are starting to wear thin...
    Though I only quoted part of it, with pretty well everyhing you posted above!!

    I think the main issue is not the lack of performance/results that Massa has shown, rather, it's that he is a likeable guy! He is/has been the "underdog" for years, with a couple of exceptions, and everyone loves to cheer on the underdog.

    If he had come back, stronger than ever after his accident and his "on/off" championship, it would have become another piece of the mystique that is Ferrari. Most of us wanted that for him (YES, even I after I got over the "shock" of Kimi's departure!!) because most of us want that Cinderella ending for ourselves, too!!

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    I think he's the better driver. However, Felipe came with a whisker of taking the WDC. He would have 1 to Alonso's 2. Not a big advantage, really.
    Well, Alonso also missed two titles by a whisker (2007 & 2010). By that logic, he should have been 4 time WDC.

  7. #337
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    Things seem quite simple to me. Massa doesn't match the expectations of his bosses. Massa doesn't match the expectations of the fans as well. Massa got enough time to change the situation and, reasons aside, he is unable to do so. Massa doesn't fit in Team Ferrari anymore.

  8. #338
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    The car doesn't suit him,fair enough, but it's seriously worrying that nothing they do to the car seems to speed him up nowadays.

    The car improves and FA moves forward a few places, but FM seems doomed to remain 15th or thereabouts.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucial_Xtreme View Post
    No vultures. That's only reality you hear knocking at the door. The reality of the situation is a driver, any driver, who drives for the greatest F1 team of all time can only under-perform for so long until something gives. I mean you don't seriously expect Ferrari to keep Felipe on as a driver performing at the level he is at right now do you? Even worse are there are no indications anything will change. A team is only as good as it's weakest link. Ferrari's main goal for being in Formula One is to win Constructors Titles something that is currently impossible with the current driver lineup unless Felipe does a complete 180. Which looks more and more unlikely as the season progresses.
    Felipe has had unwavering loyalty & support for 2 & 1/2 years. Patience are starting to wear thing and soon that knocking you hear will turn to pounding, the door will open and Ferrari will have a new driver unless something changes quickly.
    you are going to be shocked when alonsos next team mate is no better than massa , and when massa beats or matches his next team mate. Massa is the true measure of the car, and what a normal F1 driver can do in it which shows what a poor and difficult car it is. Massa is the exact same driver he was in 2008, the only difference is his team mate and a much worse car. If he was in that lotus he would be beating Kimi again and fighting for wins. Many people simply cannot comprehend this because they dont understand how good Fernando Alonso is especially in a poor car.

  10. #340
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    i support both our drivers as i believe they are both worth their ferrari seats (one way or another). no need to explain fernando's qualifications as he's proven his worth time and again in ferrari. felipe on the other hand is on a big downward spiral, and while i'd like to continue supporting him, the gap between them in performance is so huge, i could almost cry for massa. alonso has averaged 12.2 points in 5 races. his average alone is more than 6 times felipe's total output. that's pretty embarassing. how much support does it really take? i think ferrari's given all the support he needs. its all down to him, or up in his head. so far, this year's the worst of the three being teamed up with fernando, and never a sign of improvement. time's up i believe, nevermind the "ifs" and "buts". last year, he faired better compared to alonso in an inferior car(s). this year... dunno how to say it... either alonso making the car look better than it actually is, or massa making the car look worse than it actually is.

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeswing View Post
    either alonso making the car look better than it actually is, or massa making the car look worse than it actually is.
    I think is both things, Alonso has proved over and over again that he has an special ability to get the most of the cars he drives, so if any other driver in form can reach the 90% of the car, Alonso can reach 95% (not always) and Massa is below that 90%, so the car is not as good as it looks in Alonsos hands and not as bad as it looks in Massas hands, it's something in the middle, but probably more close to Alonsos, performance.

    One thing that bothers me is that Felipes awful performance is getting away credit from the team and Fernando, there is always this shadow behind them , team orders, equality, Ferrari not taking care of Felipe, the car designed for Alonso, all this BS spreaded by some media, I think Felipe should man up and say openly to the press that the team is supporting him in the same way the team support Fernando, that there is nothing obscure going on behind the scenes. This or leave the team right now if they don't treat him well.

    I really want a clean race for Felipe, no traffic, decent strategy, decent pit stops, no bad luck, something to show us that he is not crap, something to show his true pace without any external interference. Said that, that will show his lack of racecraft too, because the best drivers can handle drive around any problem, is very rare to have a car or to drive in a circuit with everything line up for you.

  12. #342
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    I like Massa but feel he has indeed had the benefit of (a) the doubt and (b) Ferrari's loyalty for longer than necessary. I know it's treason on here to say Felipe should go but I feel he should.

    Clearly the team has its own reasons for keeping with him but I believe a new and hungrier driver would get more out of the donkey that is the F2012..
    Trying to be less angry..

  13. #343
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    how dreadful could it be that felipe's never had a clean race in 5 races done? maybe he should get into feng shui

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Singer View Post
    I like Massa but feel he has indeed had the benefit of (a) the doubt and (b) Ferrari's loyalty for longer than necessary. I know it's treason on here to say Felipe should go but I feel he should.

    Clearly the team has its own reasons for keeping with him but I believe a new and hungrier driver would get more out of the donkey that is the F2012..
    yes... and it makes me admire ferrari all the more for their unbelievable patience... nevermind the WCC. it's not like they're married to one another are they? felipe like everyone else is in the ferrari payroll. and to be fair, he's not just the one with so much passion for ferrari. even the lowliest of ferrari employees could have as big a passion for ferrari. what the matter is is about one's performance in the company.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    you are going to be shocked when alonsos next team mate is no better than massa , and when massa beats or matches his next team mate. Massa is the true measure of the car, and what a normal F1 driver can do in it which shows what a poor and difficult car it is. Massa is the exact same driver he was in 2008, the only difference is his team mate and a much worse car. If he was in that lotus he would be beating Kimi again and fighting for wins. Many people simply cannot comprehend this because they dont understand how good Fernando Alonso is especially in a poor car.
    Yes I don't expect anybody to come in and match or beat Alonso. But why are you so confident that we can't bring in a driver better than Massa?

    For example his last year at Sauber he was on pace with Heidfeld. We know Heidfeld is not a top notch driver because he was much slower than Kubica at BMW Sauber. Not to mention what Vettel showed while he was there.

    I see a lot of reason to believe that Massa is a midpack driver. I'm sure Ferrari saw potential back in the day but that potential did not develop or more likely the accident has had lasting effects.

    I ask again, what is there to gain from keeping him around? More so what is there to lose by trying another either proven driver (or the Rosberg type) or a young driver with potential (like Perez or Hulkenberg)

  16. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene22n View Post

    For example his last year at Sauber he was on pace with Heidfeld. We know Heidfeld is not a top notch driver because he was much slower than Kubica at BMW Sauber. Not to mention what Vettel showed while he was there.
    Why do you draw reference to his last year at Sauber as an indicator, yet ignore him beating Kimi and being decent against MS? He also done well enough in 2010 against Fernando.

    I don't think I have seen anyone suggest Massa will be at Ferrari in 2013.
    Forza Ferrari

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    To conclude that Massa's performance is the true representation of the performance of the car is an admission that Alonso is defying the laws of physics and driving beyond the capability of the car. Sorry, but it's just not possible.

    But there's really no reason to continuously moan, just let the nature takes its course. Sooner or later, Ferrari's management will make the decision on Massa' future. Fact of life: unless the driver is top of the crop, he/she will not get to choose what top team he/she drives for.

  18. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Alonso was coming 2011 to replace Kimi anyway, Ferrari just sped that process up. Getting rid of Kimi cost us a lot of money why would we pour money down the drain if there was any sort of debate about who to keep? Massa was never under threat in that period, he was delivering performances.
    I am not saying that the decision was controversial, only that it had to be made.

  19. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucial_Xtreme View Post
    No vultures. That's only reality you hear knocking at the door. The reality of the situation is a driver, any driver, who drives for the greatest F1 team of all time can only under-perform for so long until something gives. I mean you don't seriously expect Ferrari to keep Felipe on as a driver performing at the level he is at right now do you? Even worse are there are no indications anything will change. A team is only as good as it's weakest link. Ferrari's main goal for being in Formula One is to win Constructors Titles something that is currently impossible with the current driver lineup unless Felipe does a complete 180. Which looks more and more unlikely as the season progresses.
    Felipe has had unwavering loyalty & support for 2 & 1/2 years. Patience are starting to wear thing and soon that knocking you hear will turn to pounding, the door will open and Ferrari will have a new driver unless something changes quickly.
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  20. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene22n View Post
    Yes I don't expect anybody to come in and match or beat Alonso. But why are you so confident that we can't bring in a driver better than Massa?
    How many others could beat kimi over 3 seasons as team mates, and score 11 wins, and 15 poles? People have short memories. That is exactly how good massa is, his problem is his team mate is far better than that. Alonso has demolished every team mates hes ever had other than Hamilton. As a 21 year old he lapped his team mate Trulli, to win his first ever race. Destroyed fisichella, Piquet who everyone said was crap but turns out he wasn't, grojean was supposed to be crap as well, and now Massa. Notice a trend? It will continue with his next team mate unless its Lewis Hamilton.

  21. #351
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    I love how some seem to think replacing Felipe will make us win the WCC, our weakest link is not Felipe but the car, but if changing Felipe will make the car better then I am all for that
    Forza Ferrari

  22. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    It will continue with his next team mate unless its Lewis Hamilton.
    It will still continue if Hamilton is paired with Alonso at Ferrari

  23. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by impactX View Post
    To conclude that Massa's performance is the true representation of the performance of the car is an admission that Alonso is defying the laws of physics and driving beyond the capability of the car. Sorry, but it's just not possible.

    But there's really no reason to continuously moan, just let the nature takes its course. Sooner or later, Ferrari's management will make the decision on Massa' future. Fact of life: unless the driver is top of the crop, he/she will not get to choose what top team he/she drives for.
    I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

    This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

    Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.

  24. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

    This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

    Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.
    +1
    Forza Ferrari

  25. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

    This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

    Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.
    Agreed, i just don't think Vettel belongs into that category. But maybe i'm biased- can't stand the guy either

  26. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

    This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

    Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.
    Agree 100%!!!!!

    Combination: Superior Driver + Bad Car = From Decent to Good results (for example Alonso in 2011 or early 2012)
    Combination: Bad Driver + Superior Car = From Bad to Decent results (for example Webber in 2011 or Br.Senna in 2012)
    Combination: Bad Driver + Bad Car = Bad results (uncountable examples)
    Combination: Superior Driver + Superior Car = Excellent results (for example Schumi 2002-2004 - Ay.Senna 1988-1991, Button 2009, Hakkinnen 1998-1999)
    Combination: Lewis + Any Car = Unpredictable results! Crystal Ball needed.

  27. #357
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    Pick your top 6 drivers and ask yourself if they will sign on the dotted line to let Alonso pass. We are a #1, #2 driver team. IMO Massa is safe at home. Ah just a few podiums will make it all better.
    [SIGPIC]

  28. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

    This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

    Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.
    This is a very good point.... just think of JV winning a title in a superior Williams car.... anyone can win in a fast car, only the greats can win in a slow or unblanaced car.....
    Rest in Peace Leza, you were a true warrior...

  29. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom Hearts View Post
    One thing that bothers me is that Felipes awful performance is getting away credit from the team and Fernando, there is always this shadow behind them , team orders, equality, Ferrari not taking care of Felipe, the car designed for Alonso, all this BS spreaded by some media, I think Felipe should man up and say openly to the press that the team is supporting him in the same way the team support Fernando, that there is nothing obscure going on behind the scenes. This or leave the team right now if they don't treat him well.
    Let's stay serious. Ferrari won't design the car for Massa. In Bahrain we have seen that Alonso didn't move over for Massa who was on a different strategy, we all know what would have happened if it was the other way around. I also don't know if the team deserves much credit for building the F2012 or even the F150.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom Hearts View Post
    I really want a clean race for Felipe, no traffic, decent strategy, decent pit stops, no bad luck, something to show us that he is not crap, something to show his true pace without any external interference.
    Well, I don't know if you watched the Chinese and Bahrain GP, the 2 races before this one race in Barcelona which has set everyone on fire, but to be only 5 and 7s behind Alonso after 56 and 57 laps, is not really crap.

  30. #360
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    All of these posts, you guys are such whiners...cry about this or that..never a good thing to say about anyone.
    Its amazing some of you can get out of bed in the AM. Or whenever it is you get up.
    The truth is that:
    Ferrari has not built a good car...period...they havent for a while, and if you know you Ferrari history, I mean, its a Ferrari site, right?
    You would know that Ferrari has built more bow wows ie: dogs, than winners..
    Some of you sound as if you are blinded by the magic of Ferrari, they are a car company, and yes, as much as you dont believe it,
    even Ferrari cannot always produce race winning cars.
    The F2010 was probably the best car Ferrari produced since Brawn left.
    I think b4 one goes axing any of the drivers, one should look first at the real problem.

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