Ferrari’s quali performance

[FerrariF60]

Do you guys think that we’ve been looked at remapping the ECU and have a setting that we can change with a flick of a button on the steering wheel like Red Bull has (assuming that’s what they’re using) to get that extra downforce needed to dominate in quali like they do.

I mean it’s clearly they’re doing something to have a gap of .7seconds or bigger in comparison to 3rd or 4th place on the grid.

I’m only saying/asking this because Alonso seems pretty confident that this second half of the season will change in our favor; and he wouldn’t say that out in the open if he, us (Ferrari) wouldn’t have some solid facts.

In any case, i’m hoping we have figured out what the BULLS had/has that makes them this fast in quali, and if we did figure them out i think this second part of the season is gonna be more enjoyable for us as well as everybody back at Maranello factory.

Forza Ferrari.

[Lithium]

There are some rumours running around different F1 forums that Ferrari might start using this special engine mode this weekend in Hockenheim. Mind you, these are only internet forum rumours, but you never know. Ferrari say they are bringing an updated diffuser this weekend, so that might have something to do with it. I just hope we don't cook another engine with this 'special mode', as apparently it can be very stressful on engines.
So we'll see. If RBR can do it, I'm sure Ferrari can figure it out too. Same for other big teams, but hopefully we'll figure out and use the system before McLaren and the rest do. :-)

[Greig]

I thought the ECU was standard for all

[aroutis]

It's all explained here

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/red-bull-map-q-the-secret-to-the-teams-q3-pace

[Lithium]

I thought the ECU was standard for all

Yes it is. That is why if RBR can do it, Ferrari can do it too.

This ignition retard mapping would be controlled via the SECU via the driver selecting a steering wheel control, using quite normal tuning parameters and not some clever workaround. Of course this is all quite legal.

If the overheating issues can be contained, this would be a relatively simple mapping to introduce for another EBD team.

Hopefully that is what's Ferrari latest diffuser update is all about.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/red-bull-map-q-the-secret-to-the-teams-q3-pace/

[Brakefade]

This is only used in the hot lap in Q3, and only during the slow corners. So I don't think it's that detrimental to engine reliability.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

very intresting! i wonder why that's why Alonso is more confident!

[bulgh]

Ferrari is set to use the Red Bull exhaust system in Hockenhaim. As OmniCorse.it reveals the Scuderia will try the Red Bull delay exhaust system in the German GP.

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/3064/la-ferrari-col-ritardo-di-accensione-a-hockenheim-per-avere-i-gas-di-scarico-in-tiro-anche-in-rilasc


:clap:clap:clap:clap

seen on; www.facebook.com/F1writers

[NJB13]

Ferrari is set to use the Red Bull exhaust system in Hockenhaim. As OmniCorse.it reveals the Scuderia will try the Red Bull delay exhaust system in the German GP.

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/3064/la-ferrari-col-ritardo-di-accensione-a-hockenheim-per-avere-i-gas-di-scarico-in-tiro-anche-in-rilasc

This article seems to suggest it indeed can be used/invoked during the race as well as qualifying and that there is a solution to at least mitigate the heat damage issues.

Bot translation of the article:-
Even Ferrari to Hockenheim will have a mapping of control unit that will delay time from engine, allowing the pilot to maintain engine in shooting even when these will take its foot off the accelerator. In this way it is possible that discharges blowers on the diffuser guarantee an additional downforce, while maintaining a minimum pressure which otherwise would lose in release phase. We say now that this is not a gimmick of Maranello, but yet another solution copied from Red Bul Racing and then developed taking into account the characteristics of F10. In Britain there is who was convinced that it was precisely thanks to this that the Rb6 have always something extra in capacity and various experts argued that the eight pole positions conquered on nine Gp were the fruit of this solution. Apparently we put with peace of mind because the ignition delay helps make the monoposto less unstable, but would those advantages be insured, seven tenths in one round on competition. Lingers sagacemente Adrian Newey has developed a strategy that Renault was using to safeguard its engines R30: the delay on/off, in fact, it was thought to improve the reliability of transalpine V8 and not to improve performance. Unlike what you thought and wrote, in fact, with this electronic mapping not inject more gasoline, but it makes sure that the intake and exhaust those you remain open at the same time for a moment. Then the exhaust gases, in release phase, would only hot air (otherwise there would a considerable increase of consumption): transalpine technicians had conceived this solution to reduce temperatures in the heart of the engine, thus extending the life of the engine. Adrian Newey, which is a perfectionist, tried to exploit this opportunity in aerodynamic terms: is it for this that has set the Rb6 with discharges blowers, but from what it was able to seize, this gimmick is not only useful for a lap in qualifying, but can be used in the race and not only for a ride. In short, the additional load can be useful to stabilize the single seater, ensuring a small increase of load, but certainly not the solution that makes slippery, the Red Bull, so the "hunting" starts over and went back to look with particular attention in the area of the suspensions. Ferrari, for its part, continues the development of a package which is optimized for maximum performance: the trial is conducted in a simulator from Alonso and Massa would have highlighted that the F10 with the latest news should be able to fight for the victory. We will see to Hockenheim, though the fear of technical director Aldo Costa is that it has not yet closed completely the gap by Webber and Vettel in qualifying lap: and it is precisely on this subject who are working hard at Maranello ... by Franco Nugnes

[Tifosi]

Thanks Spanky, reading that was a bit like listening to Flavio Briatore talk you through a technical document. You get the gist whilst simultaneously not being able to understand what's being said.

I do hope we've made strides for this race and that Alonso has legitimate reasons to be so optimistic about the second half of this season.

:thumb

[Racehound]

This article seems to suggest it indeed can be used/invoked during the race as well as qualifying and that there is a solution to at least mitigate the heat damage issues.

Bot translation of the article:-
Even Ferrari to Hockenheim will have a mapping of control unit that will delay time from engine, allowing the pilot to maintain engine in shooting even when these will take its foot off the accelerator. In this way it is possible that discharges blowers on the diffuser guarantee an additional downforce, while maintaining a minimum pressure which otherwise would lose in release phase. We say now that this is not a gimmick of Maranello, but yet another solution copied from Red Bul Racing and then developed taking into account the characteristics of F10. In Britain there is who was convinced that it was precisely thanks to this that the Rb6 have always something extra in capacity and various experts argued that the eight pole positions conquered on nine Gp were the fruit of this solution. Apparently we put with peace of mind because the ignition delay helps make the monoposto less unstable, but would those advantages be insured, seven tenths in one round on competition. Lingers sagacemente Adrian Newey has developed a strategy that Renault was using to safeguard its engines R30: the delay on/off, in fact, it was thought to improve the reliability of transalpine V8 and not to improve performance. Unlike what you thought and wrote, in fact, with this electronic mapping not inject more gasoline, but it makes sure that the intake and exhaust those you remain open at the same time for a moment. Then the exhaust gases, in release phase, would only hot air (otherwise there would a considerable increase of consumption): transalpine technicians had conceived this solution to reduce temperatures in the heart of the engine, thus extending the life of the engine. Adrian Newey, which is a perfectionist, tried to exploit this opportunity in aerodynamic terms: is it for this that has set the Rb6 with discharges blowers, but from what it was able to seize, this gimmick is not only useful for a lap in qualifying, but can be used in the race and not only for a ride. In short, the additional load can be useful to stabilize the single seater, ensuring a small increase of load, but certainly not the solution that makes slippery, the Red Bull, so the "hunting" starts over and went back to look with particular attention in the area of the suspensions. Ferrari, for its part, continues the development of a package which is optimized for maximum performance: the trial is conducted in a simulator from Alonso and Massa would have highlighted that the F10 with the latest news should be able to fight for the victory. We will see to Hockenheim, though the fear of technical director Aldo Costa is that it has not yet closed completely the gap by Webber and Vettel in qualifying lap: and it is precisely on this subject who are working hard at Maranello ... by Franco Nugnes:lol Well, that just about sums it all up!!!:lol;-) no seriously tho....the drag-racers have been messing around with ignition timing and camshaft profiles since the 40s!!!!!!!!!! In Formula 1 nowadays with pneumatic valve trains such as they have there is far more scope for excessive valve overlap and spark timing... i mean, its easy when you think about it! ;-):lol

[Racehound]

Thanks Spanky, reading that was a bit like listening to Flavio Briatore talk you through a technical document. You get the gist whilst simultaneously not being able to understand what's being said.

I do hope we've made strides for this race and that Alonso has legitimate reasons to be so optimistic about the second half of this season.

:thumb:-( Fernando usuallymakes a strong to the season like a charging Bull getting up to top speed very quickly........but this Bull is gathering pace to make its killer lunge for glory at the end!!! :-) (forgot to add that if Fernando dont win it, then I rteally hope Mark does!!!! :)

[DIEK]

Alonso also finally be able to mount the new rear suspension, which couldn't mount up to change the gearbox... :clap

[Ste]

Alonso also finally be able to mount the new rear suspension, which couldn't mount up to change the gearbox... :clap

I might be wrong, but I thought we did that at Silverstone? Massa got the new rear suspension at Valencia and Alonso got it at Silverstone once his 4 race cycle was over. :-)

Yea, here you go:


Another good news, for Fernando Alonso this time, is that the Spaniard will benefit from a new gearbox at Silverstone. In Valencia, only Felipe Massa's car had a new gearbox, as Alonso's was subject to a four-race mandatory period for its existing transmission. Apart from the new gearbox, Alonso will also have a new suspension configuration for his F10.

[Brakefade]

I have this picture in head of the RB team members staring blankly at the monitors as we take pole. With the expressions in their faces clearly saying "Crap, cat's out of the bag"

[vcs316]

I have this picture in head of the RB team members staring blankly at the monitors as we take pole. With the expressions in their faces clearly saying "Crap, cat's out of the bag"

Would love it if that were to come true :clap

Forza Ferrari !! :thumb

[bulgh]

If Ferrari starts getting poles it will mean that championship is possible! :thumb:thumb

[FerrariF60]

If Ferrari starts getting poles it will mean that championship is possible! :thumb:thumb

not only poles, but a whole lot of 1-2 finishes as well....then we probably have the posibility of winning not just WDC but also WCC....that would be just SWEET!!!!!

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[ferrari4life]

man counting our chickens before they are hatched are we?...

[DIEK]

I might be wrong, but I thought we did that at Silverstone? Massa got the new rear suspension at Valencia and Alonso got it at Silverstone once his 4 race cycle was over. :-)

Yea, here you go:

We had many doubts and said many things, but ...read this official FIA report of British GP:


2010 BRITISH GRAND PRIX

From : The FIA Formula One Technical Delegate
Document : 22
To : The Stewards of the Meeting
Date
: 10 July 2010
Time
: 19:57

TECHNICAL DELEGATE’S REPORT
The following drivers will start the tenth Event of the 2010 Formula One World
Championship with a new gearbox:

Number
Car
Driver
17
STR Ferrari
Jaime Alguersuari
The above driver used his previous gearbox for five consecutive events in conformity with
Article 28.6a of the 2010 Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Number
Car
Driver
06
Red Bull Racing Renault
Mark Webber
10
Williams Cosworth
Nico Hülkenberg
19
Lotus Cosworth
Heikki Kovalainen
The above drivers did not finish the last race in Valencia and are in conformity with Article
28.6a of the 2010 Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Jo Bauer
FIA Formula One Technical Delegat


LINK: (in cache, they erase the original from his page) (page 6)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/gbr-race-report.pdf

[Sempre_Ferrari]

I was also under the impression that Alonso changed his gearbox at Silverstone :Hmm

[Sempre_Ferrari]

In fact this is correct....Alonso changed gearbox in china and turkey so he is due for a new one in germany whilst Massa changed his in Spain and Valencia :thumb

[Ste]

Ok, cheers DIEK, that's clarified for me. Strange about all the other reports saying otherwise, but that's pretty official. :-)

[WS6TransAm01]

man counting our chickens before they are hatched are we?...

EXACTLY, as "The Wolf" said in Pulp Fiction; "Let's not start sucking each others' d*cks just yet gentlemen"

I am hopeful, but not overwelming with expectation. let see what we do.

[mandzipop]

There were some unusual noises coming out of the Ferrari engine today. :Hmm

[FerrariF60]

There were some unusual noises coming out of the Ferrari engine today. :Hmm

....so in other words, you think we have something up our sleeve....ala Red BULL???
i guess we won't be able to see that until Q3 tomorrow, since it's not that healthy for the engine to run that kind of mapping all the time...hence we'll use it in Q3 like Reb Bull and hopefully come out on top...securing the front row with both cars....

that would be SIMPLY AMZING

[mandzipop]

....so in other words, you think we have something up our sleeve....ala Red BULL???
i guess we won't be able to see that until Q3 tomorrow, since it's not that healthy for the engine to run that kind of mapping all the time...hence we'll use it in Q3 like Reb Bull and hopefully come out on top...securing the front row with both cars....

that would be SIMPLY AMZING

Well Alonso did say

"In order to be in front tomorrow, we will have to do something out of the ordinary".

Maybe they are going to try it.

[FerrariF60]

i've read on another forum that Ferrari might have been experimenting through the weekend with the Constant Exhaust Gas System; this is what someone on there said:

One of Ferrari's developments for its car this weekend is a constant exhaust-gas pressure system to feed the blown diffuser.
Red Bull's dominance in Q3 qualifying this year has been attributed to an engine management system that keeps exhaust gases flowing through the blown diffuser even when the driver is not on the throttle in slow corners. Diario Sport claims that Ferrari's version was tested for the first time in Hockenheim practice.
Another Spanish newspaper, AS, said Ferrari, Renault and McLaren are known to be experimenting in the area of constant exhaust pressure. Fernando Alonso topped the afternoon timesheet in Germany on Friday, but revealed that he still expects Red Bull to be setting the pace in qualifying.
"We know that Red Bull are the ones to beat on a Saturday," he said. "We hope that on this Saturday we can make it harder for them."
Ferrari is still pushing ahead with developments for the 2010 car, but two pundits believe the Italian team is now out of the fight for the title.
"The world title for them is gone," Niki Lauda told Blick newspaper, and Eddie Jordan is quoted by Germany's Die Welt: "I think Ferrari have no chance of winning the championship."

is this the reason we nearly got POLE, you guys think???
i mean clearly we were faster then the McCheaters by nearly 1 second, which we weren't in previous races, espcially silverstone

[mandzipop]

i've read on another forum that Ferrari might have been experimenting through the weekend with the Constant Exhaust Gas System; this is what someone on there said:

One of Ferrari's developments for its car this weekend is a constant exhaust-gas pressure system to feed the blown diffuser.
Red Bull's dominance in Q3 qualifying this year has been attributed to an engine management system that keeps exhaust gases flowing through the blown diffuser even when the driver is not on the throttle in slow corners. Diario Sport claims that Ferrari's version was tested for the first time in Hockenheim practice.
Another Spanish newspaper, AS, said Ferrari, Renault and McLaren are known to be experimenting in the area of constant exhaust pressure. Fernando Alonso topped the afternoon timesheet in Germany on Friday, but revealed that he still expects Red Bull to be setting the pace in qualifying.
"We know that Red Bull are the ones to beat on a Saturday," he said. "We hope that on this Saturday we can make it harder for them."
Ferrari is still pushing ahead with developments for the 2010 car, but two pundits believe the Italian team is now out of the fight for the title.
"The world title for them is gone," Niki Lauda told Blick newspaper, and Eddie Jordan is quoted by Germany's Die Welt: "I think Ferrari have no chance of winning the championship."

is this the reason we nearly got POLE, you guys think???
i mean clearly we were faster then the McCheaters by nearly 1 second, which we weren't in previous races, espcially silverstone
I think it is related. There were rumours prior to the weekend that Ferrari might use it. Whether it is easy to install is a different matter. Some say it is just down to rngine mapping, but I think that the EBD has to be fully operational for it to work. I could be wrong though.

[Greig]

I dunno, from our comments it seemed we were shocked to be so close to the Red Bull in qual, could just be mind games though :-)

[Agron]

IMO we already had the better car, it's just that RB still had that trick up their sleeve, but it seems Ferrari now has it too, and in the next few races they will put it to work more efficiently to reach the RB level of performance.

[tpe]

IMO we already had the better car, it's just that RB still had that trick up their sleeve, but it seems Ferrari now has it too, and in the next few races they will put it to work more efficiently to reach the RB level of performance.

Until RB introduces something else and we are again in the catch-ip mode. We need to have better and different development from other guys. Let's concentrate in tyres management for example for the next couple of races and then with anything FA and FM suggest. They drive the car and know better.
By the way, the BDO or whatever else is named, is not difficult to introduce it. Just pick a couple of ECU, the software programmers, an engine and a test bed. That's all. So, it is feasible to have it ready in one week. If it works, then fine, the driver select it and that's it.

[Agron]

No offence intended at all, but I'm absolutely sure they know better than us what's best for them ;-)

[hogo]

IMO we already had the better car, it's just that RB still had that trick up their sleeve, but it seems Ferrari now has it too, and in the next few races they will put it to work more efficiently to reach the RB level of performance.

We were slower in sector 3, Alonso 0.2s and Massa 0.4s slower than Vettel. So yeah we are still lacking of downforce in sections like these.

[Tifosi]

We were slower in sector 3, Alonso 0.2s and Massa 0.4s slower than Vettel. So yeah we are still lacking of downforce in sections like these.

The speed trap figures intrigued me.

BUTTON 317.5 km/h
HAMILTON 316.7 km/h
VETTEL 311.9 km/h
ALONSO 308.5 km/h
WEBBER 308.5 km/h
MASSA 308.3 km/h

The f-duct clearly isn't the be-all and end all this week-end.

[DIEK]

Webber f-duct is covered... :lol

[Tifosi]

either that or it's "stubble drag" ;-)

[Becool70]

I believe they have cracked the RB quali trick... period! Ferrari drivers look confident this weekend and Alonso has been very happy all week!!