I'm just not feeling it...

[Il Barone Rosso]

Am I alone in feeling that Fernando is struggling to win over the tifosi, we seem to lack the "thrill factor" this season. This is nothing to do with his ability, which is beyond question, its just the whole package and poor old Felipe having to give way like he did made my heart sink. It pains me to say it but the smart money is probably on Red Bull and if Webber does it I will be the first to take my hat off to him.

Does anyone agree or have I got this all wrong?:Hmm

[Ste]

I think you've got it all wrong :-D

[schuey612]

i kinda agree.
i'd still much rather see him win the title than webber though.

[straycat]

i can not agree...sorry.

[Greig]

I think you've got it all wrong :-D

How can Ferrari never have the "thrill" factor, I don't know.....

[Agron]

Meh, depends, if you have always disliked Fernando it's going to be difficult adapting. I find it hard to stomach all this poor Felipe thing, I don't feel Ferrari owes him anything considering they have given him 4 championship contending cars counting this year, that means his is the best seat of the grid.
As a matter of fact, probably with the Kimi & Felipe pair this season Ferrari would have no realistic chance at the WDC nor WCC and the tifosi would be talking about how the car is not good enough two years straight but to each their own...

[Ste]

How can Ferrari never have the "thrill" factor, I don't know.....

Yep, totally agree. They do it for me all the time. :-)

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

Am I alone in feeling that Fernando is struggling to win over the tifosi, we seem to lack the "thrill factor" this season. This is nothing to do with his ability, which is beyond question, its just the whole package and poor old Felipe having to give way like he did made my heart sink. It pains me to say it but the smart money is probably on Red Bull and if Webber does it I will be the first to take my hat off to him.

Does anyone agree or have I got this all wrong?:Hmm

after Schumi left i was searching for something! Ferrari were missing there spark and ever since he left i wished Fernando would wear Red so this was a dreamcome true for me i waited patiently for 4 years! Yeah i felt for Massa in German Gp but Fernando is the Red Future! Here comes AlonsoMainia

[justjesper]

I think a lot of people including my self, have a hard time forgetting all the things that Alonso has been involved in, and I do have a very hard time giving the guy any form of credit for anything he does.
I do know he is a good driver, but as a package I think he make more trouble then good.
I know I have been hard on him here, but I do think that some of my outburst has been rightful and I know some here is furious about my comments.
We can not all like all drivers as some never liked Kimi or Michael Schumacher for that matter.
But we like Ferrari and we do not need to like all the drivers ?
I don't think so.

[schuey612]

i was very happy when alonso signed for us, but as justjesper has said trouble does seem to follow him. fernando and felipe have however been fairly equal this year, just one seems to have a little more luck. i can't help thinking that todt didn't want alonso and there must have been a good reason.
i love ferrari, but when they did what they did in germany it hurt, felipe had been fighting for his life a year ago that day and wouldn't even let him fight for the win. i've never before come so close to switching f1 off for good, due to that and also stewards desitions in previous races, luckily hungary was a good fair race. so for now i'll keep watching.
i love ferrari, but watching the race that day pushed that to it's limit, 12 years i've surported them, but i was very hurt due to what they did that day, which although done with the teams interest in mind, still seemed very un called for.

[Katu]

fernando and felipe have however been fairly equal this year, just one seems to have a little more luck.
fairly equal? i don't know which championship you have been watching....

[Greig]

Until Alonso actually brings trouble to Ferrari I think people are just being a bit unfair :-) it is not his fault the team used team orders, just like it was not Rubens fault, or Eddie's fault, or Gilles fault etc etc etc.....

The Kimi dislike was performance based at Ferrari, not 3 year old history :-)

[zakfourie]

:-bounce:-bounceKIMI BASHING:-bounce:-bounce

:-D

[Hornet]

I think its more exciting than ever at the moment. Last year, it was horrible for us that we gave up on the championship before the season was even close to the end

Now, we're still fighting for the championship, Alonso is still in it, and Massa has make huge jump back to top form. I think the next race is going to be exciting for us

[Suzie]

Fernando will always have tons of fans, it doesn't really matter whether he wins over the tifosi or not. Most of his fans on here seem to have followed him to Ferrari from his other teams but he's definitely liked by people who have always been Ferrari fans.

I think he's immensely talented and he's very suited to this team, but he's not my favourite driver and probably won't ever be - that said I don't have to like both drivers to be a Ferrari fan; I was never fussed on Kimi or Rubens either so it's no big deal really.
(Although I'll probably change my mind again in a couple of weeks; I seem to veer from adoring Fernando to being furious at him, and back again... ;-))

[schuey612]

wel ther was a few races were alonso followed massa home and they both could've had a win each. both drivers have also breifly lead the championship. the biggest difference between the two seems to be luck, that is perhapes why one is a wdc 2 n the isn't a wdc.

[MikeyS]

If Fernando wins I don't think it'll matter personally!

[Rob]

He may of had trouble in other teams, but does that really matter?? no. He is the best driver around atmo. Ferrari knows this thats why he here. He can get the team motivated, not saying Felipe cannt, but everyone knows how fernando works and what he likes, maybe that is what Ferrari needs. That will never be said and im not saying it, you know what i mean ;-)

Dont keep dragging up Hockenheim, that had to be done. Teams interests come first, not nice but thats facts. Tifosi see's Fernando for what he is, pure out and out driver and fighter, will not give up and drive the wheels off any car to win and to finish.

[epiclyaddicted]

Here we go again! I can see another 20 or so pages of Alonso vs Massa coming up....:-ZZ

[Rob]

Here we go again! I can see another 20 or so pages of Alonso vs Massa coming up....:-ZZ

hope not. :roll

[Tifoso]

You'll feel it when Alonso wins the WDC. This year. :lou

[Mrs Alonso]

You'll feel it when Alonso wins the WDC. This year. :lou

Amen

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

You'll feel it when Alonso wins the WDC. This year. :lou

+1

[vagos]

i dont particularly agree............ i think alonso is doing well in Ferrari....... on the contrary i have seen his character changed which is good!

[REDARMYSOJA]

He may of had trouble in other teams, but does that really matter?? no .

You're right, no it doesn't. Heck, he deserves a medal for what he did at McLaren.

[REDARMYSOJA]

i was very happy when alonso signed for us, but as justjesper has said trouble does seem to follow him. fernando and felipe have however been fairly equal this year, just one seems to have a little more luck. i can't help thinking that todt didn't want alonso and there must have been a good reason.
i love ferrari, but when they did what they did in germany it hurt, felipe had been fighting for his life a year ago that day and wouldn't even let him fight for the win. i've never before come so close to switching f1 off for good, due to that and also stewards desitions in previous races, luckily hungary was a good fair race. so for now i'll keep watching.
i love ferrari, but watching the race that day pushed that to it's limit, 12 years i've surported them, but i was very hurt due to what they did that day, which although done with the teams interest in mind, still seemed very un called for.

You'll not find a bigger Massa fan than myself, but what was done that day had to be done. I didn't like it either, but that's the way it goes. Felipe just isn't in as good a position as Alonso to win the WDC, and yeah, it a bit early, but it's an all out dogfight this year and every point is badly needed, and Alonso is in a better position to use them. I hope to see him have to move over for Felipe next year if Felipe needs them. But I don't begrudge Alonso or the team for what was done.

[Liscia]

I am totally and enthusiastically behind the team as ever!

[RockyRaccoon]

I am feeling that this year really has brought together the best team and driver in Formula 1. I am the first to admit that I have always supported Alonso rather than the team he drove for. Since he has came to Ferrari though that has been different, something that didn't really happen at Renault and certainly didn't happen at Mclaren has happened. I feel myself supporting both Ferrari and Alonso and I have found something to support that is greater than any driver. Alonso coming to Ferrari has really opened my eyes about how different this team is to Mclaren, who I really couldn't stand even when he drove for them. Ferrari are passionate racers who wear their emotions on their sleeve and there seems to be a real sense of warmth within the team. I know I for one am glad Alonso has joined Ferrari and I thought I would put a different slant on things and say I am certainly feeling Ferrari, I just hope in time all Tifosi will start to feel Alonso. I suspect when he wins the 2010 title that will happen :-)

[justjesper]

there seems to be a real sense of warmth within the team

Not to dig up dirt, but Felipe didn't look like he was to happy about it :-)
I hope the team get some harmony going again soon. There is only one person who will make it work and Massa is probably the best team player in F1 atm, so I'm confident he will play 2. driver well, for the rest of this year. Next year he will be back fighting.

[Pekka]

there there seems to be a certain warmth within the team fo sho, i think the core is red hot latin..

it's boiling scuderia from the inside till the point of explosion.. lets wait and see.. :lou

lol jk :-D

[Agron]

:-bounce:-bounceKIMI BASHING:-bounce:-bounce

:-DBashing =/= Facts. In 2008 and 2009 Massa was faster, and by the look of things, he would have been faster in 2010 as the car would suit him even less.
If I had said Kimi had no talent that would be bashing, but stating facts isn't, you are just being over sensitive. IMO he is more talented than Massa, but sucks at involving himself with the team and at playing political games while Massa is very good, so the team made the car suit Massa better; I'm not blaming Ferrari, they probably did because Massa was the one that gave them more feedback. The rest is history.

[Brakefade]

I get up every morning at 5:00 AM to watch F1 live. Sometimes 4:30 just so I can watch the preview show. I've also paid for a proxy server just so I can keep on watching the BBC feed while my F1 broadcaster is showing commercials. Don't tell me, Tifosi aren't "thrilled" to watch Ferrari and Fernando. And did I mention I work on Sundays too?

[Rishu]

Give him time, i am sure he'll gain more respect in the eyes of Tifosi.

Lets face it, Ferrari badly needed him & he badly needed Ferrari :-)

[NJB13]

Do I feel the excitement this year? You betcha!
Do I think we can win both championships this year? Yep
Am I happy with the team, our performance and our decisions this year? All the way
Do I care about what the Ferrari-haters are saying? Nope, in fact, I enjoy knowing they are squirming and its all because of our performance :-)

[Aussie]

I like him at Ferrari that's all that matters I can't care less what other people think

[xlinx]

I'm feeling it!!!!!:topdance

[racingbradley]

I am always happy to see a red podium and would just love to see us 1, 2 for the rest of the season.(dream on I know)
Like many others here I still find it very hard to warm to Alonso and I still cannot see any great change in his character!!!!!:-??
But I never warmed to the iceman and wasn't a Rubino fan so I guess it is no great big deal.
I do hope history repeats itself and Massa will come back even stronger next year. It will add to my excitement and enjoyment watching Nando move over for him as Kimi did!!!!!:-)

[Ken]

I commend your efforts to give us Ferrari fans a fresh topic to discuss.

Pity that yet another thread has become driver vs driver.

Maybe we should just have one huge thread or rename the site ALONSO or MASSA .COM

[Rosso Corsa]

I'm feeling it. We don't have the quickest car, but he's skull dragging our Ferrari to keep us in the hunt for the titles. What more could be asked of him? He's earning his Ferrari badge with skill and spirit.

[justjesper]

I commend your efforts to give us Ferrari fans a fresh topic to discuss.

Pity that yet another thread has become driver vs driver.

Maybe we should just have one huge thread or rename the site ALONSO or MASSA .COM

Actually it's not a driver vs driver.
I think it's a legit question for Il Barone Rosso to ask. It has not been bashing ( except some Kimi stuff ) but a discussion about our new driver and how he is getting a long with us the Tifosi.

I guess you could ask what is a Tifosi, but that we would have thousands of options about too.
This is why we come here, to see new things and discuss difference in options. That is like a democracy :-)

Well who am I kidding, there is no democracy here, but it sounds good :-)
Let people make there voices heard, they will feel better and you might just learn a thing or two.

[justjesper]

What more could be asked of him? He's earning his Ferrari badge with skill and spirit.

Not at all in my mind. I think he could do much better. I think it's time for Alonso to clean up his past and present.
Actually I think he should stop talking about the team when all his actions are for him self.

[Rosso Corsa]

Not at all in my mind. I think he could do much better. I think it's time for Alonso to clean up his past and present.
Actually I think he should stop talking about the team when all his actions are for him self.

I don't think you know what you're talking about :-D

[justjesper]

I do know what I'm talking about. But don't take it personally.
I know there are a lot that has the same view as me.

[Greig]

I do know what I'm talking about. But don't take it personally.
I know there are a lot that has the same view as me.

So back up your opinion with some reasoning, you attack him for talking about the team, yet can't tell us why you believe that.....also bear in mind how you support MS and his antics at this team.....so tell us what Alonso is doing that is so wrong in your eyes, yet you support MS to this day....really would be interesting to hear :-) it's either going to be pure fantasy or pure hypocritical either way I guess :-D

[justjesper]

So back up your opinion with some reasoning, you attack him for talking about the team, yet can't tell us why you believe that.....also bear in mind how you support MS and his antics at this team.....so tell us what Alonso is doing that is so wrong in your eyes, yet you support MS to this day....really would be interesting to hear :-) it's either going to be pure fantasy or pure hypocritical either way I guess :-D

The Thread was made by Il Barone Rosso, and I think he has a right to say what's on his mind, so do you and so do I.
Please do not take this personal Greig.

You have to understand that I enjoy this forum but I hate to get banned because I have a different opinion then you.
Who is to say who is right or wrong here. I'm not attacking any one here, I'm clearly just expressing my thoughts on the matter.

[Greig]

The Thread was made by Il Barone Rosso, and I think he has a right to say what's on his mind, so do you and so do I.
Please do not take this personal Greig.

You have to understand that I enjoy this forum but I hate to get banned because I have a different opinion then you.
Who is to say who is right or wrong here. I'm not attacking any one here, I'm clearly just expressing my thoughts on the matter.

LOL as expected no answer, just a hater who hates.....boring, thread starter has nothing to do with YOUR words.

[justjesper]

LOL as expected no answer, just a hater who hates.....boring, thread starter has nothing to do with YOUR words.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I do not comment on personal attacks. I have no problem explaining my view on the matter, but it has to be done in a civilized way.
If not I see no point.
Thank you

[Greig]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I do not comment on personal attacks. I have no problem explaining my view on the matter, but it has to be done in a civilized way.
If not I see no point.
Thank you

Explain then, we are waiting to hear how a MS fan can attack Alonso for using the word team, over to you :-) on the edge of my seat....

[NJB13]

4002

[TheProdigalSon]

Am I alone in feeling that Fernando is struggling to win over the tifosi, we seem to lack the "thrill factor" this season. This is nothing to do with his ability, which is beyond question, its just the whole package and poor old Felipe having to give way like he did made my heart sink. It pains me to say it but the smart money is probably on Red Bull and if Webber does it I will be the first to take my hat off to him.

Does anyone agree or have I got this all wrong?:Hmm

Nope you got it wrong :-)

[Suzie]

IIRC the tifosi weren't overly enamoured with Michael either for the first few years, so it's really nothing to do with Fernando and everything to do with a driver having to earn his place in the hearts of the tifosi :-)

[Agron]

Actually I think he should stop talking about the team when all his actions are for him self.So haters could say he is egocentric and arrogant because he only speaks about himself :lol.

[Alonsomaniac]

I think that Justjesper has all the right to not liking Fernando - however one should always try to stay objective. That is not always easy, I know because I have always disliked MS although he was a fantastic driver for Ferrari.
I have been a fan of Fernando from the moment he started at Minardi and yes I am one of the fans who followed him to Ferrari and also these great forums.
Fernando is - in my opinion ;-) - one of the best drivers of the last decade. I have also looked at the guy a little further than just on track. He is not a bad guy, even a little shy, but always friendly.
As a driver he is 110% commited to his job and demands that everyone around him is working just as hard as he does. If he feels that is not the case, he can get very angry and will never keep his mouth shut.
People say he brings trouble wherever he goes, but in fact he has only had real trouble at McLaren. Without saying he was totally innocent of what happened, I think he just did not fit in.
At Renault he has had some disagreements because he thought the team should just work harder to make the car better. He was right and the car got better.
Renault welcomed him for the second time when he left McLaren - they would never have done that if he was such a nasty human being.
Did he know about the McLaren affair when he was there? I think he did know (although I have now idea when) , but he was not involved - besides , he is just a driver and not even a very loved one at McLaren.
Did he know what Piquet was doing? I don't think so. Why on earth would a two time champion take the risk of ruining his career and reputation just for only the chance of one racewin? Because it was only a chance, there was no guarantee he would win was there?
And now he is at Ferrari, his dream. And I think he is home now, because this team , just like Fernando, has always wanted only one thing and all other places do not count - they want to be FIRST.
This is their first year together, Fernando is not at his max maybe and this years car is good , but also not the max. Fernando does not complain, on the contrary, he always backs the team and stays positive.
Can they still do it this year? To be honest, I don't think so. But you never know, maybe Fernando and Ferrari will have a big surprise for us all.
After all, they are the best aren't they?

[schuey612]

i favour massa over fernando, and this is most likely due to ferrari nuturing massa. fernando up till this year has always been seen as a rivial, after all he was the one who stopped michael getting an 8th title.
i don't dislike him, but at the same time i'd rather see massa winning. it was the same when kimi was with ferrari. but i was as pleased as anyone when kimi got the title, so am sure if alonso wins i'll be jumping for joy.
i had hoped that it would be fernando vs felipe this year, but unfortunatly the red bulls have bulit a slightly quicker car. also some of the steward desitions have been a bit unconsitent. i supose i miss the good ole days, but we got to keep looking forward and hopefully we'll have a nice surprise at the end of the year.

in years to come i expect the drivers will matter less and it'll just be about the team winning. i also think we have the strongest driver pairing and other than having michael back, who although i hate to say it, probs wouldn't be as strong as the drivers we have, i wouldn't swap massa or alonso for anyone. we have to drivers who love the team and will do the best they can for it, even if it isn't always best for them induvusally.

FORZA FERRARI

[Red_Diamond]

Am I alone in feeling that Fernando is struggling to win over the tifosi, we seem to lack the "thrill factor" this season. This is nothing to do with his ability, which is beyond question, its just the whole package and poor old Felipe having to give way like he did made my heart sink. It pains me to say it but the smart money is probably on Red Bull and if Webber does it I will be the first to take my hat off to him.

Does anyone agree or have I got this all wrong?:Hmm

I agree with you. Alonso doesn't seem better than any of the other drivers on track, him and Kimi seem the same to me. Also, Alonso's history makes me not like him, he's not doing enough at the moment to rectify the past. Felipe will always have a stronger connection with the tifosi.

[Greig]

I agree with you. Alonso doesn't seem better than any of the other drivers on track, him and Kimi seem the same to me. Also, Alonso's history makes me not like him, he's not doing enough at the moment to rectify the past. Felipe will always have a stronger connection with the tifosi.

You must take off those Kimi glasses then if you think Alonso and Kimi are the same LOL

Your beloved Kimi admitted he spied on Ferrari when at McLaren, history right :-)

[steelstallions]

Just as the season was getting interesting for us, we have this long long break and I am getting frustrated and annoyed.
Whilst also at the same time being frustrated and annoyed that we are waiting for FIA to decide on what we are going to get as punishment for a team order and if the new flexi-wing tests are going to screw up are recent resurgence.

I am only on occasion not feeling it as I know we have the package to win but don't seem to be getting the breaks to do so, even when we could bask in the glory of a 1 -2 finish it went all bitter with the team order and we didn't enjoy the win as we should have done.

[justjesper]

Yes the Germany decision didn't help in my book. I understand why it was done, but i do not agree.

[Greig]

Yes the Germany decision didn't help in my book. I understand why it was done, but i do not agree.

And you hold Alonso responsible for it?

[mad_ani]

You must take off those Kimi glasses then if you think Alonso and Kimi are the same LOL

Your beloved Kimi admitted he spied on Ferrari when at McLaren, history right :-)


Just like we did with Mika Salo in 1999

Quote from Mika Salo:

We always spied on McLaren, listening to their radio traffic. After every practice session I had in front of me, on paper, all the discussions Mika Hakkinen had had with his engineer.

[mad_ani]

And you hold Alonso responsible for it?

Not responsible...but instigator of the entire controversy which has dragged us to WMSC...
He simply could not put through an overtaking move on Massa and wanted the place to be handed over by the team...and making it look like a driver decision and not a team order

MS,unlike Alonso, never urged the team to ask RB to move over for him...

[Rishu]

Not responsible...but instigator of the entire controversy which has dragged us to WMSC...
He simply could not put through an overtaking move on Massa and wanted the place to be handed over by the team...and making it look like a driver decision and not a team order

MS,unlike Alonso, never urged the team to ask RB to move over for him...

Not really. MS did'nt need to because JT was more proactive to situations than SD.

Q: So is Fernando Alonso following in Michael Schumacher’s footsteps and taking a tight grip on Ferrari?

Niki Lauda: What they did in Hockenheim was against all rules. Either the rules are changed or everybody observes them. What they’ve done is wrong and they got an immediate punishment - and they will get a pasting from the (FIA) World (Motor Sport) Council, that is for sure. And that has nothing to do with Alonso. He’s no Schumacher

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/8/11144.html

[Greig]

Not responsible...but instigator of the entire controversy which has dragged us to WMSC...
He simply could not put through an overtaking move on Massa and wanted the place to be handed over by the team...and making it look like a driver decision and not a team order

MS,unlike Alonso, never urged the team to ask RB to move over for him...

LOL you are funny :-)

[schuey612]

i do remember hearing renualt on the radio to truili n fisico to say alonso is faster, so alonso has always been very good at getting his team mates to move over for him. i just hope massa is stronger next year and is so far ahead of alonso that he doesn't have to move over for him. it would be very interesting to see alonso have to fight his team mate, as it's something he's never really done, except when he was with lewis and look how that worked out, however that was a personality thing too.

[Greig]

i do remember hearing renualt on the radio to truili n fisico to say alonso is faster, so alonso has always been very good at getting his team mates to move over for him. i just hope massa is stronger next year and is so far ahead of alonso that he doesn't have to move over for him. it would be very interesting to see alonso have to fight his team mate, as it's something he's never really done, except when he was with lewis and look how that worked out, however that was a personality thing too.

Did you have the same interest in seeing MS fight with his team mates?

You make a good point, if Massa was faster than him then he would not need to move over, just like Rubens and Eddie I guess :-) Michael made a career out of being no1 and the other guy moving over, we sat back and lapped it up, the team knew best, he was no1 for a reason....the team use a similar order for Alonso and it's a massive crime...something does not add up....

[NJB13]

....the team use a similar order for Alonso and it's a massive crime...something does not add up....

What doesn't add up to me is how we seem to care so much about what the Ferrari-Haters are saying and writing.

[Suzie]

Did you have the same interest in seeing MS fight with his team mates?

You make a good point, if Massa was faster than him then he would not need to move over, just like Rubens and Eddie I guess :-) Michael made a career out of being no1 and the other guy moving over, we sat back and lapped it up, the team knew best, he was no1 for a reason....the team use a similar order for Alonso and it's a massive crime...something does not add up....

Not sure but maybe because it was allowed then so people just accepted it, and also perhaps because Ferrari fans are bigger supporters of Felipe than they ever were of Eddie or Rubens; not to mention the whole sentimental aspect of what date it happened on.
I was going to say that for F1 fans as a whole, maybe the outcry has been bigger because they dislike Alonso more than they ever disliked Michael... but I'm not sure that's humanly possible! Then again no matter what Ferrari do, folk will always find something to whine and complain about ;-)

[schuey612]

What doesn't add up to me is how we seem to care so much about what the Ferrari-Haters are saying and writing.

I'm deffinetly not a ferrari-hater, i didn't like what i saw in germany and it did upset me. but at the same time i understand why the team did it.
things were different when michael was there, he was a clear number one and him and the team just waltzed of with the titles.
i think it's just taking a bit of time for people and me to adjust to alonso in the team, and i do favour massa, he was part there when the dream team were, he's also so loveable, something that rubens and eddie didn't really have.
but at the end of the day i want the team to win, it seems that now it's the wcc that's most important to me.

[Jonny]

....the team use a similar order for Alonso and it's a massive crime...something does not add up....

The main factor for that is because it is now banned in the current regulations whilst it was not when it was previously used for MS

[Greig]

The main factor for that is because it is now banned in the current regulations whilst it was not when it was previously used for MS

So there was no switching of positions at Ferrari from 2002 till the German GP 2010?

[Salvador Dali]

To be fair and honest the last time it looked so bad imho was Austria 2002. After that I don't remeber seeing such an outcry by all in F1 till now. But as some of you have said it is probably the combo of Alonso and Ferrari that people hate so much (if possible more or the same as MS & Ferrari...). But the thing that gets me is that while we have seen similar actions by the teams all down the pit lane it is only really bad when Ferrari are involved. Seems that as much as Ferrari and we the tifosi are passionate about F1 so are all the other about Ferrari getting publicly disgraced and fined... Well sometimes even that is never enough.

It is a dumb rule and FIA should remove it. There is no way they can prove it was a team order (even if it was rather plane to see / hear what the massage was for...) so if they cant reinforce the rule they should scrap it all together.
Oh and another thing is this bull about caring for the fans. Since when does FIA and the teams care about us. Never have, never will. We are only good when they can brag about TV ratings, selling caps and having full grandstands. And now everyone is so sad about us fans that we were cheated of the true result... If all would just fess up I'm sure this would never be an issue.

Rant over... good night :-)

[Jonny]

So there was no switching of positions at Ferrari from 2002 till the German GP 2010?

Of course there was switching of positions during that timeframe. But the difference was that they were during the penultimate or final race of the season and world championships were at stake. And I have no doubt other teams have ordered their drivers to swap positions, but unlike Germany they weren't so obvious.

[mad_ani]

Did you have the same interest in seeing MS fight with his team mates?

You make a good point, if Massa was faster than him then he would not need to move over, just like Rubens and Eddie I guess :-) Michael made a career out of being no1 and the other guy moving over, we sat back and lapped it up, the team knew best, he was no1 for a reason....the team use a similar order for Alonso and it's a massive crime...something does not add up....


So Alonso is No. 1 driver in Ferrari and Massa has to give up his win each time Alonso asks the team...It was not good then and its not good now....
Maybe u forget that team orders are banned after 2002...thats what has got us into this mess :-)

Post 2002, position swaps have taken place only when one driver is out of contention..

[NJB13]

This whole team orders business is absolute rubbish.
This is a "team" sport - it's called Scuderia Ferrari not Team Alonso or Team Massa.
In teams it is absolutely normal for a team member to do things that help the team ahead of helping themselves.


Maybe u forget that team orders are banned after 2002...thats what has got us into this mess :-)

Post 2002, position swaps have taken place only when one driver is out of contention..

So on one hand you say team orders are banned, and on the other hand you say it's ok because all the times its happen since 2002 its been with a driver that isn't in contention. Er, did you watch Turkey this year - are you saying that Button wasn't in contention then - lol! Just as a reminder here's pretty much the quotes from McLiars team radio:-
Hami "Will Jenson pass me?"
Pit "No"
ROFL - no team order spelled out there


Of course there was switching of positions during that timeframe. But the difference was that they were during the penultimate or final race of the season and world championships were at stake. And I have no doubt other teams have ordered their drivers to swap positions, but unlike Germany they weren't so obvious.

Not obvious eh - Have a listen to the post race interview of Hami after Germany 2008. I think these are the salient points:-
During the race McLiars Radio "Heiki, Lewis is faster than you" (does that sound familiar)
Heike then takes right hander on the outside line running at warm-up pace and Lewis passes.
After the race Lewis describes HK as a great team member and that he did the team thing by moving over and letting him pass. Later Ron Dennis in an interview says that teams have the right to do the team thing.
Some other obvious team orders that were not in the penultimate races:-
McLiars 2008 both England and France
Kimi moving over for Felipe in 2008 - Japan I think

[NJB13]

So Alonso is No. 1 driver in Ferrari and Massa has to give up his win each time Alonso asks the team...

This is a silly conclusion to jump to. At Germany this year when we were threatened, Alonso was faster - and Massa was told that. At another track and another time, Massa may be faster and the situation wouldn't arise. Also remember, Massa was given plenty of time and was urged to improve his lap times and keep the lead.

You're based in Melbourne, think of it this way, if Luke Hodge was standing unattended in the goal square and Buddy Franklin had the ball, against the boundry line and point post facing the wrong direction and about to be tackled, and the Eagles had just kicked 5 goals on the trot to close to within a point - should Buddy:-
A) Improve his chances of winning the Coleman Medal by trying to kick a goal over his head... OR
B) Pass the ball to Hodge

Within the game, every player has to make decisions based on the current situation. And, the situations change every game. Players have good and not so good days and that's just part of it. The one constant is that in every other team sport in the world we expect the individuals to do the team thing.

[mad_ani]

So on one hand you say team orders are banned, and on the other hand you say it's ok because all the times its happen since 2002 its been with a driver that isn't in contention. Er, did you watch Turkey this year - are you saying that Button wasn't in contention then - lol! Just as a reminder here's pretty much the quotes from McLiars team radio:-
Hami "Will Jenson pass me?"
Pit "No"
ROFL - no team order spelled out there



Not obvious eh - Have a listen to the post race interview of Hami after Germany 2008. I think these are the salient points:-
During the race McLiars Radio "Heiki, Lewis is faster than you" (does that sound familiar)
Heike then takes right hander on the outside line running at warm-up pace and Lewis passes.
After the race Lewis describes HK as a great team member and that he did the team thing by moving over and letting him pass. Later Ron Dennis in an interview says that teams have the right to do the team thing.
Some other obvious team orders that were not in the penultimate races:-
McLiars 2008 both England and France
Kimi moving over for Felipe in 2008 - Japan I think


PS: I was refering to Ferrari team only...and also to the driver swaps...

.Good question...maybe Ferrari should have complained to the FIA then....shame we didnt...

and why remind Massa 3 times tht his team mate is faster...we could still have got a 1-2 since both Massa and Alonso drive for Team Ferrari...

[NJB13]

PS: I was refering to Ferrari team only...and also to the driver swaps...

.Good question...maybe Ferrari should have complained to the FIA then....shame we didnt...

and why remind Massa 3 times tht his team mate is faster...we could still have got a 1-2 since both Massa and Alonso drive for Team Ferrari...

I'm certain Ferrari will be fully armed with all these other instances when they front the WMSC. As a team, it's better they don't argue our case in public - I was a little disappointed we officially reacted to Bucky Beaver.

I think Massa was told 3 times to give him every chance to keep his position. And if you think a 1-2 was in the bag in Germany then I must have been watching another race. In the lead up to Alonso passing Massa, we had Massa 1st, Alonso 2nd and Vettel 3rd. All three were close enough to win and Vettel was fastest, Alonso had been fastest until he caught Massa and Massa was clearly slowest of the 3. If Massa hadn't done the team thing, then Vettel could have caught both Ferrari's and we would have had a 3 car train and the possibility of Vettel getting past one or both.
The decision was a slam-dunk no-brainer for any team-oriented person.

[epiclyaddicted]

This thread is the perfect example of why I hate the mid-season break... :-ZZ

[Greig]

So Alonso is No. 1 driver in Ferrari and Massa has to give up his win each time Alonso asks the team...It was not good then and its not good now....


Alonso never asked, but if you say it enough times you might believe it :-) why you make up things to try and fit your anti-Alonso point of view is beyond me......team orders are banned correct, we never gave a team order in Germany :-)

[Rishu]

we never gave a team order in Germany :-)

:-D

[racingbradley]

Don't know which planet I was on that day but I distinctly remember Alonso saying to his race engineer "This is ridiculous” several times. Now I would have thought he wanted them to do something which can only be to ask his team mate to move over for him. Clearly he wasn't able to pass him on the track----- unlike the pit lane entry in China!!!!! I do hope Ferrari gave him a warning about that dangerous incident!!!!!!!! I rather think not!!!!!!!!!!! :roll

[Greig]

Don't know which planet I was on that day but I distinctly remember Alonso saying to his race engineer "This is ridiculous” several times. Now I would have thought he wanted them to do something which can only be to ask his team mate to move over for him. Clearly he wasn't able to pass him on the track----- unlike the pit lane entry in China!!!!! I do hope Ferrari gave him a warning about that dangerous incident!!!!!!!! I rather think not!!!!!!!!!!! :roll

I think I heard him say it once, not several times? He never asked to be let passed did he, he passed Felipe fair and square in China, no more dangerous than Felipe closing the door on Alonso in Germany, would Felipe get a warning for that?

Are we all forgetting the "3 second" agreement between the drivers, Marc Gene said it was in place before the German GP, Felipe was told clearly by Rob to keep that gap....

[Rob]

"the gap is important"

[NJB13]

Don't know which planet I was on that day but I distinctly remember Alonso saying to his race engineer "This is ridiculous” several times. Now I would have thought he wanted them to do something which can only be to ask his team mate to move over for him. Clearly he wasn't able to pass him on the track----- unlike the pit lane entry in China!!!!! I do hope Ferrari gave him a warning about that dangerous incident!!!!!!!! I rather think not!!!!!!!!!!! :roll

I only recall him saying it once, immediately after Felipe "closed the door" on him. He wasn't expecting that from his teammate.
I'm pretty sure you were on the "I'll-just-magnify-anything-to-suit-my-argument-planet"

[Suzie]

Is every thread going to descend into the team orders row. 'Cause my head is pickled with it :-??

[Stormsearcher]

i favour massa over fernando, and this is most likely due to ferrari nuturing massa. fernando up till this year has always been seen as a rivial, after all he was the one who stopped michael getting an 8th title.
i don't dislike him, but at the same time i'd rather see massa winning. it was the same when kimi was with ferrari. but i was as pleased as anyone when kimi got the title, so am sure if alonso wins i'll be jumping for joy.
i had hoped that it would be fernando vs felipe this year, but unfortunatly the red bulls have bulit a slightly quicker car. also some of the steward desitions have been a bit unconsitent. i supose i miss the good ole days, but we got to keep looking forward and hopefully we'll have a nice surprise at the end of the year.

in years to come i expect the drivers will matter less and it'll just be about the team winning. i also think we have the strongest driver pairing and other than having michael back, who although i hate to say it, probs wouldn't be as strong as the drivers we have, i wouldn't swap massa or alonso for anyone. we have to drivers who love the team and will do the best they can for it, even if it isn't always best for them induvusally.

FORZA FERRARI

This is a fair post. Two competent drivers will never be best friends, and that should be accepted (unless u are part of the mclaren love-fest starring lewser and button) as a given... and a team will do what it thinks is in its best interest.

With regards to the original thread, i guess the fact that alonso has till this year been a ferrari rival will make it hard for some to completely accept him. But give him time, i think his passion and talent will win ppl over. Not that it matters in the larger scheme of things... if the team believe in him, then its good enough.

[mandzipop]

I think what a lot of people have problems with is the fact that some of the things he said about Ferrari many years ago. He wasn't very nice about Ferrari. Also his ambition was never to drive for Ferrari (unlike most F1 drivers). At least that he has admitted that his dream was Mclaren. But he's been there, done it , wore the t-shirt and has thrown the t-shirt into the skip (with potato peelings and leftovers thrown on top for good measure). So it is a good thing. Kimi's dream was Ferrari, it turned out ok in the fact that he won the WDC for us, and yes he said he would retire after Ferrari and has and isn't coming back to F1. Fisi said gis dream was Ferrari, and lo and behold he drove for us last season. The only other driver on the grid that is in a top team and has blatently stated that he wants to drive for Ferrari is Vettel.

I just think that he was in awe of Senna and wanted to drive for Mclaren for the wrong reasons. It was never home.

I'm having trouble adapting to supporting him in some respects, but in others none. He was always the villian and rival in my eyes. But after he left Mclaren it was a given that he would be the one who replaced Kimi, so there was time to adjust. I'm still in the transitional period, but I am rooting for both drivers. I didn't like what happened in Germany but as soon as Massa was in front, it was fully anticipated by me that Ferrari were going to have to do it. If they want car numbers 1 & 2 next year, then they had no choice. Business and money comes first. Having 1 & 2 on the cars helps attract sponsors.

I have also learned to try and not dislike any driver as you never know, they may one day drive for Ferrari. Alonso is going to be a Ferrari driver for a long time and his successor is likely to be Hamilton, Kubica or Vettel.

I am loving it and really feeling it this year. Probably because Ferrari are the underdog in a way. In fact this reminds me of the 2007 season in some respects.

[Jonny]

Not obvious eh - Have a listen to the post race interview of Hami after Germany 2008. I think these are the salient points:-
During the race McLiars Radio "Heiki, Lewis is faster than you" (does that sound familiar)
Heike then takes right hander on the outside line running at warm-up pace and Lewis passes.
After the race Lewis describes HK as a great team member and that he did the team thing by moving over and letting him pass. Later Ron Dennis in an interview says that teams have the right to do the team thing.
Some other obvious team orders that were not in the penultimate races:-
McLiars 2008 both England and France
Kimi moving over for Felipe in 2008 - Japan I think

Yes obvious. As it was obvious that Germany 2008 was a team order, but the main reason for the sudden uproar in the media etc. was because of the amount of team radio played that day IMO.

As for your comments on team orders before penultimate races, I was asked if Ferrari had switched drivers between 02 and 10. In 2008 Kimi moved over for Felipe in China which was the penultimate race. It is also likely that Ferrari may have switched drivers before the penultimate races but if they did, they did it in a way that did not arouse suppicion. Whatever McLaren did I wasn't asked about and I can't comment on because I don't remember the incidents.

[Greig]

Mandzipop...care to quote some of these bad things he said about Ferrari? or is it just another internet myth that gets repeated so many times it becomes gospel? Ferrari was never Michael's dream, did we use that as a stick to beat him with over the head? Alonso was never that nice to the FIA or MS, but I have yet to see any quotes where he has said anything bad about Ferrari, would be interesting to see them rather than just hear people claim it's true.....

[Tifosi]

The only thing I remember was his "F1 is not a sport anymore" quip at Monza 06, which was clearly a suggestion of Ferrari/FIA colusion.

[Greig]

The only thing I remember was his "F1 is not a sport anymore" quip at Monza 06, which was clearly a suggestion of Ferrari/FIA colusion.

Was an attack on the FIA clearly :-)

[racingbradley]

I see no problem with this thread. It has given people an opportunity to air their views on the latest driver addition to the Ferrari family. As individuals we all have our own opinions which this thread has allowed us to air. Clearly everyone is not going to agree with everything that is posted but as long as it doesn't turn into driver bashing, like we had last year over Kimi ,I see no problem. Just a discussion/debate really.
In football loyal fans do not always agree with everything the manager does or indeed do they approve of his choice of new players. Same here.
At the end of the day we always hope the team made the correct decision on the day for the end of year result!!!!!
In answer to NJB13 I would have liked to see two team mates fighting it out for the top spot. Just think how thrilling and nail biting that would have been to watch on the anniversary of Massa’s accident----------as it happened it just went flat and no I wouldn’t have liked to see them take each other out. We still got a 1, 2 or 43 points for the team. :-)
Roll on Spa.

[NJB13]

In answer to NJB13 I would have liked to see two team mates fighting it out for the top spot. Just think how thrilling and nail biting that would have been to watch on the anniversary of Massa’s accident----------as it happened it just went flat and no I wouldn’t have liked to see them take each other out. We still got a 1, 2 or 43 points for the team. :-)
Roll on Spa.

Would you also prefer to see Gerrard and Rooney fighting over possession and who should score a goal in an England soccer match (instead of passing the ball to the player in best position and ensuring a score? :-)

[racingbradley]

Slightly different. We expect to see driver against driver, wheel to wheel racing and if it is two drivers in the same car it adds to the excitement. Otherwise it's " you go first" and I will follow senario.:giveup
Hardly the ingredients of excitement.
As for the football analgy that's how the game is played I thought.

[NJB13]

Slightly different. We expect to see driver against driver, wheel to wheel racing and if it is two drivers in the same car it adds to the excitement. Otherwise it's " you go first" and I will follow senario.:giveup
Hardly the ingredients of excitement.
As for the football analgy that's how the game is played I thought.

So you don't believe Ferrari is a real team, it's just every man for himself - just can't agree with that one.

[Greig]

Slightly different. We expect to see driver against driver, wheel to wheel racing and if it is two drivers in the same car it adds to the excitement. Otherwise it's " you .

But you said Alonso passing Massa in China was dangerous and he should be warned :-D was that not wheel to wheel then?

[racingbradley]

It was in a dangerous place when they were slowing down to come into the pit------not out racing each other on the track. I wasn't the only one who thought so at the time.

[NJB13]

One day being a racing driver you're a hero, the next you're an idiot. You cannot and should not take that seriously. What I do take seriouly is my job and the goal that we want to achieve.'' © Felipe Massa

I like that quote from Felipe - one thing puzzles me though - the "we" sounds suspiciously like he's talking about a team ;-)

[Fiondella]

You'll feel it when Alonso wins the WDC. This year. :lou:lol

So will I with bells on :-D

[racingbradley]

I like that quote from Felipe - one thing puzzles me though - the "we" sounds suspiciously like he's talking about a team ;-)

if you listen to most F1 drivers you will notice the royal WE they use is always about themselves and their side of the garage. Take Lewis for example ;-);-)
But of course Massa is a team player.:-)

[epiclyaddicted]

It was in a dangerous place when they were slowing down to come into the pit------not out racing each other on the track. I wasn't the only one who thought so at the time.

That's one way of looking at it. Another point of view is that, Alonso had the inside line going into the pits, and as a racing driver, he just took advantage of being on the inside. May be, if Massa hadn't made a mistake in the previous corner (as he admitted himself after the race about getting too much wheel spin coming out of the corner), Alonso wouldn't have been able to dive down the inside?

And you seem to think that team mates racing wheel to wheel on the track is not dangerous? Forgot Red Bull at Turkey already? ;-)

To be honest, I didn't like the whole team order malarky any more than you did. But for the few laps Alonso and Massa were racing each other (when Alonso made the move and Massa shut the door on him), I had my heart in my mouth! And - this may sound controversial - I would rather see Ferrari implement a blatant team order than see their two cars take each other out, especially when we are quite a bit behind in the Championship.

[racingbradley]

We could argue for ever and a day on this topic and it all depends on how you see it. As a Massa fan I think it's time to shut up and let the force be with us. I have noticed that since Nando and his army have come on board we Massa fans have found if we want to keep the peace it's best to disappear and let Alonso fans take over. :-)

[Greig]

We could argue for ever and a day on this topic and it all depends on how you see it. As a Massa fan I think it's time to shut up and let the force be with us. I have noticed that since Nando and his army have come on board we Massa fans have found if we want to keep the peace it's best to disappear and let Alonso fans take over. :-)

That's a bit unfair as most members involved in this debate have been here longer than Alonso and some longer than Massa :-) Sorry you feel that way but its never seemed that Alonso fans have taken over here to me :-(

[epiclyaddicted]

Just to make it clear (from my previous post), I'm not an Alonso fan, or a Massa fan. My loyalties begin and end with Ferrari. Between Alonso and Massa, I couldn't give a hoot as to who wins the WDC, as long as it's one of them and the trophy is coming to Maranello. But it's purely because of the driver-specific fans that I have never wanted to take part in the countless Alonso vs Massa threads we've had this year.

[Tifosi]

We could argue for ever and a day on this topic and it all depends on how you see it. As a Massa fan I think it's time to shut up and let the force be with us. I have noticed that since Nando and his army have come on board we Massa fans have found if we want to keep the peace it's best to disappear and let Alonso fans take over. :-)

Suzie made a very good point after the German GP that she was too scared to say anything on TSN for a couple of days.

I understood that. Any pro Massa sentiment made at that time was pretty much seen as anti-Ferrari sentiment it seemed to me and the viewpoint of anyone who empathised with the significance of the date or was remotely critical of the actions of our team that day were treated like traitors by some of the people on TSN, regardless of the points they made or whether or not they were Ferrari or driver fans.

I can understand why some Massa fans might feel like you do RB. Speaking as a Ferrari fan who is very attached to the human aspect of what makes Ferrari the best racing team in the world (without the humans, it was always just a badge tbh), I was pretty fed up with the crappy "7 points may win the championship" and "every team does Team Orders" defenses by the end of that week cos it totally missed the point that some Massa/Ferrari fans were trying to make. Those discussions never happened on here by en large. They had to be done elsewhere unfortunately, which was a shame.

having said that, Ferrari (and driver) fans are passionate people so it's inevitable that sheer numbers will affect the balance of any debate.


As is my usual caveat before I get attacked by a selective reader, I have to say again that I do understand why we did what we did although I personally don't agree with the timing or the method (regardless of who you want to blame) which was crass and crap, and that to many Tifosi, it's as much about how we do it as what we do*.

* see McLaren for details

[Greig]

I understood that. Any pro Massa sentiment made at that time was pretty much seen as anti-Ferrari sentiment it seemed to me and the viewpoint of anyone who empathised with the significance of the date or was remotely critical of the actions of our team that day were treated like traitors by some of the people on TSN, regardless of the points they made or whether or not they were Ferrari or driver fans.

LOL what? quote some please?

Had it happened on another date would it have been all ok with you?

You have in the past challenged driver only fans (only the Alonso ones mind) for not being here for the team, how do you think they felt, same as the Massa fans you feel so sad for now maybe?

[Tifosi]

LOL what? quote some please?

Had it happened on another date would it have been all ok with you?

Why so flippin' defensive Greig? Are you defending the whole community and every one of their historical posts now or assuming i'm having a pop at something you may have said? (which i'm not btw). I don't record all of the discussions for playback under scrutiny but I was there and I know they occured. Forgive me for my opinions but i used the caveats "some" and "it seemed to me" so i don't see why you have to jump down my throat for having them to be honest :-) I appeciate the derisory "LOL" too.

Also, my point about the date appears to still stand - namely that the human aspects of that date were and seemingly still are to be ridiculed in discussion with aggression. Hence, no room for them as they are shouted down.

Maybe RacingBradley was right :Hmm

[mad_ani]

That's one way of looking at it. Another point of view is that, Alonso had the inside line going into the pits, and as a racing driver, he just took advantage of being on the inside. May be, if Massa hadn't made a mistake in the previous corner (as he admitted himself after the race about getting too much wheel spin coming out of the corner), Alonso wouldn't have been able to dive down the inside?

And you seem to think that team mates racing wheel to wheel on the track is not dangerous? Forgot Red Bull at Turkey already? ;-)

To be honest, I didn't like the whole team order malarky any more than you did. But for the few laps Alonso and Massa were racing each other (when Alonso made the move and Massa shut the door on him), I had my heart in my mouth! And - this may sound controversial - I would rather see Ferrari implement a blatant team order than see their two cars take each other out, especially when we are quite a bit behind in the Championship.

They are racing drivers and its their instinct they race each other..even between team mates...and we have hired a 2x WDC for a good reason...I bet he can deliver us more than cutting a chicane to overtake a rival on track..

[Greig]

Why so flippin' defensive Greig? Are you defending the whole community and every one of their historical posts now or assuming i'm having a pop at something you may have said? (which i'm not btw). I don't record all of the discussions for playback under scrutiny but I was there and I know they occured. Forgive me for my opinions but i used the caveats "some" and "it seemed to me" so i don't see why you have to jump down my throat for having them to be honest :-) I appeciate the derisory "LOL" too.

Also, my point about the date appears to still stand - namely that the human aspects of that date were and seemingly still are to be ridiculed in discussion with aggression. Hence, no room for them as they are shouted down.

Maybe RacingBradley was right :Hmm

Well maybe because your making pretty wild allegations about the forum and community, something which I will stand up for, something I take pride in that we can cater for any fan be it Ferrari, Massa or Alonso so I would love to see where these feelings came from? There was heated debate from ALL sides, not just the Alonso side as its trying to be portrayed now by some, look at this thread for goodness sake, started to have a pop at Alonso and poor Massa...we have every side of the fence not just the side that suits some :-)

If RacingBradley is correct then maybe its time to start a Felipe Massa forum since they are not allowed here....apparently :-(

FYI the only members banned from here this season have been single minded Alonso fans, but hey we let them run riot...allegedly :-(

[justjesper]

Suzie made a very good point after the German GP that she was too scared to say anything on TSN for a couple of days.

I understood that. Any pro Massa sentiment made at that time was pretty much seen as anti-Ferrari sentiment it seemed to me and the viewpoint of anyone who empathised with the significance of the date or was remotely critical of the actions of our team that day were treated like traitors by some of the people on TSN, regardless of the points they made or whether or not they were Ferrari or driver fans.


Tifosi, your bang on. It's a bit sad, but I guess that's the way it is. To be honest I have never been contacted by a moderator regarding my views or any problems except one time where some one was throwing mud at me and the moderator said not to worry :-)
That said I did get a time out after the race that day ;-)

We all have our view and we should all be able to speak freely. I think that's the point of a forum. But then again I might be wrong on that too :lol

[Agron]

Tifosi, the day of the race a grand total of 2 or 3 members blamed Massa, while many more talked about Alonso being the evil overlord at the team and making some bank give him his teammate wins. Most just saying Ferrari was wrong.
If it were Alonso the one who against Ferrari bests interests ignored a team order for three times until his engineer had to make it painfully obvious that they were forcing him to give position, and then proceeded to make it again painfully obvious for all to see that he was unfairly giving his position away to Massa, and that cost the team a damage to it's image, a fine and a hearing at the wmsc, all we would be reading about would be people tearing Alonso to shreds and how he isn't a teamplayer and why he should be sacked. Instead we are starting threads of how difficult is to like Alonso :lol. Don't even want to think about what the forumers at P-f1 or the autosport forums would be saying XDDD
So IMO, your complain about the state of the forum is unfair and hypocritical, not because of ill will, but because you fail to see the other side of the fence.


justjesper, you are never too scared to criticize Alonso, in fact you do it at any given chance. The only times I've seen you post are when you can take digs at one of the Ferrari drivers and are nowhere to be found when they can be complimented, so your comment retracts from Tifosi's point. I won't say what I think you are, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks like that.

[Tifosi]

Well maybe because your making pretty wild allegations about the forum and community, something which I will stand up for, something I take pride in that we can cater for any fan be it Ferrari, Massa or Alonso so I would love to see where these feelings came from? There was heated debate from ALL sides, not just the Alonso side as its trying to be portrayed now by some, look at this thread for goodness sake, started to have a pop at Alonso and poor Massa...we have every side of the fence not just the side that suits some :-)

If RacingBradley is correct then maybe its time to start a Felipe Massa forum since they are not allowed here....apparently :-(

FYI the only members banned from here this season have been single minded Alonso fans, but hey we let them run riot...allegedly :-(


Nothing wild about it at all. Did I say the community or forum as a whole?

I agree that we should take pride in that we can cater for all opinions to be respected. To stand up for everyone's right to have an opinion and not be shouted down for having it, but to actively debate it.

Couldn't agree more :thumb:thumb

Also, I think the point being made here is that the number of one driver's fans against the other is partly affecting how these people choose to post. I agree that some Massa fans have chosen to hold back for a quiet life as RB suggests. You just don't see many of them posting now. That is a fact. I know several Fernando only fans have been banned for being radical and disrespectful but I don't see what your point is?

Personally, I don't think it's anything to do with Felipe fans not being welcomed here. It's just a representation of a shift in the balance of member's interests and the general vibe of the forum tbh.

Anyhoo, back on topic...... I think Alonso is doing fine atm and that anticipation is high. We know what we expect from now on. Let's hope he delivers :-)

[Hermann]

If it were Alonso the one who against Ferrari bests interests ignored a team order for three times until his engineer had to make it painfully obvious that they were forcing him to give position, and then proceeded to make it again painfully obvious for all to see that he was unfairly giving his position away to Massa, and that cost the team a damage to it's image, a fine and a hearing at the wmsc, all we would be reading about would be people tearing Alonso to shreds and how he isn't a teamplayer and why he should be sacked.

Of course. Fernando has become forumer's (in general) favourite punching ball over the years. It actually doesn't matter what he does, in the eyes of many it will be wrong in any case. It can be amusing at times, but after a while it gets tiring. One of the reasons why his fans rarely get involved in such discussions. I have yet to see any 'army' here...

Maybe it would be interesting to see the results of a poll.

[Tifosi]

Tifosi, the day of the race a grand total of 2 or 3 members blamed Massa, while many more talked about Alonso being the evil overlord at the team and making some bank give him his teammate wins. Most just saying Ferrari was wrong.
If it were Alonso the one who against Ferrari bests interests ignored a team order for three times until his engineer had to make it painfully obvious that they were forcing him to give position, and then proceeded to make it again painfully obvious for all to see that he was unfairly giving his position away to Massa, and that cost the team a damage to it's image, a fine and a hearing at the wmsc, all we would be reading about would be people tearing Alonso to shreds and how he isn't a teamplayer and why he should be sacked. Instead we are starting threads of how difficult is to like Alonso :lol. Don't even want to think about what the forumers at P-f1 or the autosport forums would be saying XDDD
So IMO, your complain about the state of the forum is unfair and hypocritical, not because of ill will, but because you fail to see the other side of the fence.


justjesper, you are never too scared to criticize Alonso, in fact you do it at any given chance. The only times I've seen you post are when you can take digs at one of the Ferrari drivers and are nowhere to be found when they can be complimented, so your comment retracts from Tifosi's point. I won't say what I think you are, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks like that.

Is that the kind of thing said by the 2 or 3 members that blamed Massa or is that what you are saying? ;-)

I wasn't aware Alonso should be sacked either, or that I was complaining about the state of the forum. I thought I was merely voicing my experience of the balance of posters points of view after the german GP and why i thought that was and the effect it had on some regular Massa fan posters on TSN. :-)

[justjesper]

justjesper, you are never too scared to criticize Alonso, in fact you do it at any given chance. The only times I've seen you post are when you can take digs at one of the Ferrari drivers and are nowhere to be found when they can be complimented, so your comment retracts from Tifosi's point. I won't say what I think you are, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks like that.

I think it is great we have this discussion.

Yes I agree that I have taken shots at Alosno. True.
On the other had I also said that I understood why Ferrari did what they did, but that I did not agree.
To be fairly honest with you, I think that was very fair to Alonso.

I also said that Massa will take his place as no. 2 . As I think that is what he has become for the reat of this season. I wrote that not as a attack on Alonso, but as a statement that I know Massa will do so in the best interest, in his own career and in the teams best interest.

I have aired my opinion in this thread "I'm just not feeling it..." where, Yes I do agree with Il Barone Rosso who started the thread.

I also agree with Tifosi that has suggested that all members should feel free about have there opinion.
And that I my self has not posted my thoughts as I have had several personal attacks for my opinions.

I think this forum will be just fine, and Agron this was not an attack on you or any one else. I just felt I needed to explain my self.

We should all agree to disagree , and thanks for reading my long reply

[Suzie]

Suzie made a very good point

Well, it was overdue.

Bottom line is - it's poo when you have to read 'your' driver being criticised or slagged off, which right or wrongly, I feel Felipe was in the initial few days after the 'incident'. But then, it's swings and roundabouts really, as Nando gets some stick on here also at times. It's just harder to bear when it's the driver you like best. F1 fans do get very passionate (maybe too much) about their favoured driver, which is why the likes of us lot get embroiled in nonsensical arguments at times. I'm sure Felipe and Fernando have gotten an equal amount of stick on here, but when you favour one over the other, it's a lot easier to notice when it's the one you personally like.

It'd be great if we could all just get along, but the team orders thing is a massively divisive issue. There's no right or wrong to it - I myself can see both sides of the argument. Maybe we should all just be a little more sensitive regarding the Felipe vs Fernando issue. It's horrible reading people say things against your favourite driver - and I'm sure that's something that ALL of us can relate to.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Well, to my fellow Massa fans I say, I feel your pain. But we can take pride that Alonso really hasn't been able to pass Massa on track without some help. And just remember, Alonso has won some battles, but someday his fans might find themselves just as beffudled as Kimi's fans when Massa wins the war.

And to the Alonso fans, you all need to realize how much of an emotional investment many of us have in Massa, even before he was injured. For myself, it comes from having to defend him constantly, when people said he can't drive in the rain, he can't pass, he'll never be more than a number two driver, and could never be champion. He's proved them all wrong. To many of us he is the 2008 champion, regardless of what the record book says. So yeah, your guy is good, but so's our guy.

We should all learn to respect both drivers because in the long run, this is a team, and both our guys are doing their best to make us proud.

[NJB13]

You driver-fans amaze me....
A) this is a "Team" sport
B) Massa and Alonso are "team mates" - not rivals, not enemies, not trying to take each other out and most importantly as team mates
C) they, like true Ferrari fans want the team to do best first and foremost

Now if 1 driver is faster on a particular day/time/track/tyre, and there is a danger/threat to our team winning, then I fully expect the other driver (no matter who he is) to do the team thing.

[Greig]

And that I my self has not posted my thoughts as I have had several personal attacks for my opinions.

Being asked to expand on your one line statements is not a personal attack, off course you never do actually expand on them, much like our old friend Vectra.

To the other issues, I don't see any less Massa fans posting here TBH would be interesting to know who they are. I have not seen any major Massa bashing and any that has was dealt with quite well I think, same goes for Alonso bashing, there is a limit as to how much we will take. The team order issue created all kinds of divisions, sure Massa took stick, so did Alonso, so did the team, we got 2 reported posts during the time which suggests to us the community can sort it out themselves, and when emotions dies down the debate was more healthy while still a massive source of division.

If Massa fans are not posting or feel they can't post then I would love for them to send me a PM and give me some feedback on what sort of posts and comments are stopping them from posting so we can react, use the report post tool, PM a mod, and the same goes for Alonso fans, and even those Ferrari fans that come here. We went through this all last season and the one before and the one before with Kimi v Massa, now perhaps Alonso maybe has more fans on board here than Kimi ever did which makes it a bit harder to deal with I don't know?

We now have 2 well supported drivers in the team, when as before we always had a well supported guy and a driver nobody really cared about in general terms (Kimi, Rubens) not to say those guys did not have fans here, but they were very much in the minority. So what we need is Ferrari to have a 3rd car, hire Lewis then we can all hate on him together :-D

[WRX202]

Greig it is virtually impossible to control rivalry between driver fans. Alonso / Massa have a history so each time a member says: "but Alonso...." or "but Massa..." we have to stick up with the cold war of the words.
I was proud when we gathered to collect for a gift to Massa when he had his accident and the photo of him holding the T-shirt is my pc's wallpaper in my office since then. That is the kind of spirit that kept me checking this forum out. The human side of us fans.
In my opinion [which obviously feel free to ignore] this forum started to degrade when we had the Kimi bashing, then Schumi bashing, now Alonso vs Massa [!?!] I could understand a little complaint if Kimi was not performing, I can understand being hurt that Schumi left for Mercedes but for heaven's sake why argue about Alonso and Massa which are both doing a fine job so far? It's not like we came from a dominion like the Schumi era and would expect to win every race with a minute or so on our rivals! Ferrari had to start from scratch, RedBull can afford to have a taxi driver in their car and they would still get points with the superiority they enjoy so what we have in hand we should appreciate. We have been the only team to challenge their pace this season and we need BOTH drivers to beat them.
It has come to a point that I only check TSN on GP days to see what's going on in Free Practice / Qualifying and Race. A good morning to my friend "Mschumy" and a few others and that's about it. Why should I bother reading essays about a driver called cheat, fool, idiot, criminal etc etc. Would F1 be nicer if there was just Alonso or just Massa doing 60 laps all by himself on a Sunday? I don't think so, so have a little respect towards other drivers too and especially our own. They're humans too and without them there would be no F1 to watch.

[Tifosi]

I would just like to apologise if I gave the impression that I thought that Massa fans were "hard done by" on this forum in general. That was not the intention really, I only meant to add a very specific point about the fact that post German GP, this was an uncomfortable place for some Massa fans to be.

I know that to be the case for at least 3 long term Massa fans, and that is what I based my "opinion" on.

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though. :-)

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date :roll) and method.

There have been many Alonso fans that have followed him to Ferrari (and of course TSN), and naturally, many of the ones who don't really care 2 hoots about Ferrari have been banned or been seen through pretty quickly. Obviously there are some who are attaching to Ferrari too, but we wont know by how much until he leaves!

There's a difference between fairly debating towards a point of view that is sympathetic to your favourite driver and screaming and shouting at anyone who dares to criticise him in any way whatsoever.

I find it confusing however that sometimes when the human aspect of the way in which Ferrari conduct themselves is debated, it is pretty much suggested that we should support Ferrari by counting the points as the be all and end all. That's what I don't get.

Understanding that drivers have an obligation to the team, and that it is a team sport is implicit and has absolutely nothing to do with the way Ferrari conduct themselves, yet it has absolutely everything to do with why they are different from McLaren.

Anyhoo, can't wait for Spa, it's been a ridiculously long time since I watched red cars on the track.

[Fiondella]

I would just like to apologise if I gave the impression that I thought that Massa fans were "hard done by" on this forum in general. That was not the intention really, I only meant to add a very specific point about the fact that post German GP, this was an uncomfortable place for some Massa fans to be.

I know that to be the case for at least 3 long term Massa fans, and that is what I based my "opinion" on.

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though. :-)

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date :roll) and method.

There have been many Alonso fans that have followed him to Ferrari (and of course TSN), and naturally, many of the ones who don't really care 2 hoots about Ferrari have been banned or been seen through pretty quickly. Obviously there are some who are attaching to Ferrari too, but we wont know by how much until he leaves!

There's a difference between fairly debating towards a point of view that is sympathetic to your favourite driver and screaming and shouting at anyone who dares to criticise him in any way whatsoever.

I find it confusing however that sometimes when the human aspect of the way in which Ferrari conduct themselves is debated, it is pretty much suggested that we should support Ferrari by counting the points as the be all and end all. That's what I don't get.

Understanding that drivers have an obligation to the team, and that it is a team sport is implicit and has absolutely nothing to do with the way Ferrari conduct themselves, yet it has absolutely everything to do with why they are different from McLaren.

Anyhoo, can't wait for Spa, it's been a ridiculously long time since I watched red cars on the track.

You keep questioning the method and Ferrari management but you have never volunteered how you would have dealt with the situation. Instead, you've dismissed the question outright as not being relevant. You keep repeating yourself so I repeat how would you have dealt with the situation?

[REDARMYSOJA]

You driver-fans amaze me....
A) this is a "Team" sport
B) Massa and Alonso are "team mates" - not rivals, not enemies, not trying to take each other out and most importantly as team mates
C) they, like true Ferrari fans want the team to do best first and foremost

Now if 1 driver is faster on a particular day/time/track/tyre, and there is a danger/threat to our team winning, then I fully expect the other driver (no matter who he is) to do the team thing.

I want to make something clear, I am not a "driver fan", I am a Tifoso, I back the team, which is why I didn't have a problem with Massa ceding position to Alonso. But I don't see how anyone who has been a long time Tifosi can't have developed a special liking for Massa. He's s driver in the mold of Bandini, Regazzoni, Alesi and even Gilles, passionate, giving it his all and thinking of the team first. That's just the sort of person the "true Tifosi" really love. But in the end, we do support the team. I see some of these same passionate qualities in Alonso, and I do like Alonso and am glad he's with Ferrari, but we'll have to wait and see if he is a true team player, that's my only doubt about him.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though. :-)

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date :roll) and method.

.

Well said. And I was also disappointed in Massa the day it happened. He's benefited from team orders(Kimi, China)
so he knows this is how it works and if the shoe had been on the other foot, Alonso would have been asked to move. And you're right that timing played a big part in the sore feelings, a victory for Massa on the anniversary of his injury would have been sweet, but Ferrari are in this for the team, not individual accomplishments, so as ugly as it was, it was done out of necessity. I understand why Felipe didn't like what happened, I didn't either, but sometimes you just have to take one for the team, and that raises Felipe's stature even more in my eyes.

[racingbradley]

i have just logged on and seen what a can of worms I have opened!!!!! :-(
My final post yesterday was intended to end the discussion with NJB13.
As I said earlier we all have different opinions and this forum has always allowed us to air them----it just seems lately that we are in the minority!!!!!! I expect there are reasons for that!!!!!!!
Most Massa fans respect Alonso but might have a problem warming to him. I hope that in time we will grow to love him if only for his achievements as we did Michael. :-)
We will still hope that our man comes back stronger next year and gives us something to cheer about.;-);-);-)

[Greig]

Most Massa fans respect Alonso but might have a problem warming to him. I hope that in time we will grow to love him if only for his achievements as we did Michael. :-)


That does not make much sense to me :-) Most Alonso fans respect Massa as well, but I bet they don't really care for him to win ahead of Alonso ;-)

[racingbradley]

I guess we cannot expect Massa will win over Alonso this year------at least after Germany it doesn't look that way but I did say that I hope he does better next year.
That's about it really.

[Tifosi]

You keep questioning the method and Ferrari management but you have never volunteered how you would have dealt with the situation. Instead, you've dismissed the question outright as not being relevant. You keep repeating yourself so I repeat how would you have dealt with the situation?

To be honest, I don't really think it's up to me. It obviously could have been handled better and Ferrari (and we) know it.

However, i've stated before that in my opinion - from a management point of view - it's worrying that it was allowed to happen. The "it was Felipe's decision to let him through" defense would actually have been a good defense if was remotely believable based on the way it was done and handled by the key players afterwards. However, because of the way it was handled, it was clear that this eventuality had never been properly discussed and it would seem that Massa and Rob weren't fully signed up for how such an eventuality would be played out.

I mean, if Massa made the decision off his own bat, or even if it had been properly discussed as an eventuality, then why did he have a face like a smacked bum for so long afterwards (way into the following week).

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.

The result was messy.

[Meiga]

Well said. And I was also disappointed in Massa the day it happened. He's benefited from team orders(Kimi, China)
so he knows this is how it works and if the shoe had been on the other foot, Alonso would have been asked to move. And you're right that timing played a big part in the sore feelings, a victory for Massa on the anniversary of his injury would have been sweet, but Ferrari are in this for the team, not individual accomplishments, so as ugly as it was, it was done out of necessity. I understand why Felipe didn't like what happened, I didn't either, but sometimes you just have to take one for the team, and that raises Felipe's stature even more in my eyes.
I understand why Massa didn't like what happened, and I felt sorry for him too. But I cannot understand why him and Smedley decided to make both the instructions and the move that obvious, they had to know that by acting that way they were going to put Ferrari in a difficult situation with the stewards - and that is not exactly taking one for the team, to be honest.

[Meiga]

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.
The result was messy.
That is a sensible explanation, but worrying in what it says of the improvisation of the strategy on the team's side...

[justjesper]

I understand why Massa didn't like what happened, and I felt sorry for him too. But I cannot understand why him and Smedley decided to make both the instructions and the move that obvious, they had to know that by acting that way they were going to put Ferrari in a difficult situation with the stewards - and that is not exactly taking one for the team, to be honest.

I think Stefano Domenicali should had given the instruction to Massa.

This way Ferrari had left Felipe's team "unharmed" It would also had shown that the Instruction came from the top.
It was done to clumsy and had it been well instructed before the race ( which I do not think was done clear enough ) this situation would never had happened.
As to how obvious the move was, I think it's hard not too as we have seen these " Team orders " happen year after year. Although a bit more clever then us.

I think the rule about the team orders are a good rule but of cause it makes it a bit more difficult for a team to orchestrate a race.
Some times a driver will tell the media that they are in a position to help a teammate win the championship and make it clear to everyone that that is there intension to do so.
In that case I think a driver can move over with out any problems. I think that is right, no ?

So had the team made there intension clear form the beginning then could Massa not had told the media that he was there to help Fernando, and there would not had been any problem with the move.

[scuderia_nano]

Fernando has adapted to the Ferrari well. He is the talent and Ferrari is the team.

I never liked the IDEA of Fernando and Ferrari together. But, today, When I look at performances, The Red team needs him and He needs the red team.

For eg. How Kimi and Massa struggled with tyres temperature issues in 2007-08-09, Ferrari had to baby sit these guys. Today Fernando has nothing of that sort needed. Felipe however still struggles with same problems. He infact admitted that because its more on to the drivers and less of Strategies, he is struggling in the races.

Shows us why Fernando was hired by this team. And I wont be shocked to see Massa leave especially after all the commotion he and Rob caused post Germany.

The thread creator in my opinion has got it wrong.

[TheProdigalSon]

To be honest, I don't really think it's up to me. It obviously could have been handled better and Ferrari (and we) know it.

However, i've stated before that in my opinion - from a management point of view - it's worrying that it was allowed to happen. The "it was Felipe's decision to let him through" defense would actually have been a good defense if was remotely believable based on the way it was done and handled by the key players afterwards. However, because of the way it was handled, it was clear that this eventuality had never been properly discussed and it would seem that Massa and Rob weren't fully signed up for how such an eventuality would be played out.

I mean, if Massa made the decision off his own bat, or even if it had been properly discussed as an eventuality, then why did he have a face like a smacked bum for so long afterwards (way into the following week).

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.

The result was messy.

The reason why is because after what happened in Australia Ferrari obviously created the 3 second rule meaning if the team mate behind could stay within 3 seconds of the team mate infront then the team mate infront would have to handover the position.

Where the misunderstanding lay was that it wasn't clarified if the driver infront still had to let the team mate past if he had no cars infront of him. Ferrari were clearly not expecting to have to make that decision (afterall Alonso had qualified ahead of massa and would have been ahead of him if Vettel hadn't tried to force him into a wall)

[Grillo]

Alonso is the driver I support, I want Massa to be able to race Alonso in equal terms but this season I think Massa had been struggling with the tyres more races than not, Alonso had made some mistakes but he normaly had the speed to fight for the win and he had quite a few more points for the title, then Ferrari (both drivers) had done two awfully unlucky weekends in the previous races. That was it. What Ferrari did is understandable, nothing McLaren or Red Bull hadn't done if needed (in fact they had done it this season and in the past). It was awful because it was a swap for the GP win and could have been don in a better way, other than that nothing to write home about really.

[scuderia_nano]

we never gave a team order in Germany :-)

I Second this!