Same rules, same situation, different penalty [VIDEO]

[shostak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63ocC1KsV0

[rob-nyc]

The FIA is clueless sometimes.. This was a carbon copy case.. The only difference this time and why Ferrari was fined was because Massa's engineer told him "sorry" after the race.. Implying he was told to move over instead of being his decision..

[justjesper]

I think we all know that McLaren did the same, yes.
I think now we have much more radio communication made public and the public know what happened.
The video only says that they did the same. So we did have team orders. If not the video has no meaning other then showing some cars overtaking.

[aroutis]

I've been exchanging emails with a journalist we all know...

his opinion is that this is no evidence of team orders and he wishes for Ferrari to be "...punished severely and for reasons which nobody in F1 has yet picked up."

Perhaps one can guess who the guy is :P

[Greig]

About the video, yeah Lewis did win the title 1 point, Germany helped, but to be fair he still had to pass Massa on track that day even with Heikki moving, and pass Massa he did :-( It was a clear team order though much like ours, but I don't see why the title standings are brought into it :-)

[aroutis]

About the video, yeah Lewis did win the title 1 point, Germany helped, but to be fair he still had to pass Massa on track that day even with Heikki moving, and pass Massa he did :-( It was a clear team order though much like ours, but I don't see why the title standings are brought into it :-)
Agreed. This 's about team orders, I don't see the point either.

[Meiga]

About the video, yeah Lewis did win the title 1 point, Germany helped, but to be fair he still had to pass Massa on track that day even with Heikki moving, and pass Massa he did :-( It was a clear team order though much like ours, but I don't see why the title standings are brought into it :-)


It helps if you can follow the Spanish comment - it was Pedro de la Rosa, then Mclaren's test driver, who was commenting for the Spanish TV. He was stating that the major risk for Hamilton was that, if Kovalainen kept him behind for some time, Heidfeld would be able to pit and still came out ahead of him. I think that we all can agree that Heidfeld is/was one of the toughest defensive drivers on the grid. So yes, those "team orders" made sure that Hamilton was better positioned to win that race.

To be more specific: lap 50 out of 67, and Hamilton pits from the lead. He comes out on P5 behind Heidfeld (18.5 secs), Piquet, Massa and Kovalainen. He overtakes Kovalainen on lap 51. Heidfeld pits on lap 53, and comes out just behind Hamilton. Hamilton overtakes Massa on lap 57, and Piquet on lap 60. Hamilton finished 5.6 secs ahead of Piquet, 9.3 ahead of Massa, 9.8 ahead of Heidfeld and 12.4 ahead of Kovalainen. I leave it to you to estimate how much time he could have lost if Kovalainen had actually fought for position, and then he had been behind Heidfeld for a while. If you think that he could have lost 6 secs, then that race did make a difference in the final WDC standings.

As for the WDC standings before the 2008 German GP, after 9 races and with 9 races to go: 1 Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa 48pts, 4 Kubica 46pts, 5 Heidfeld 36pts, 6 Kovalainen 24pts, 7 Trulli 20pts, 8 Webber 18pts, 9 Alonso 13pts, 10 Barrichello 11pts, 11 Rosberg, Nakajima 8pts, 13 Coulthard 6pts, 14 Vettel, Glock 5pts, 16 Button 3pts, 17 Piquet, Bourdais 2pts.

In 2010, before the German GP there had been 10 races, and 9 to go. WDC standings: 1 Hamilton 145pts, 2 Button 133pts, 3 Webber 128pts, 4 Vettel 121pts, 5 Alonso 98pts, 6 Rosberg 90pts, 7 Kubica 83pts, 8 Massa 67pts, 9 Schumacher 36pts, 10 Sutil 35pts.

To summarise. in 2008 the McLaren team orders came with 9 races to go and Kovalainen at 50% of the race points of the WDC leader; in 2010 the Ferrari team orders came with 9 races to go and Massa at 46% of the race points of the leader. The McLaren team orders arguably gave Hamilton 2 extra points over what he would have achieved without them (assuming that he would have lost just 6 secs and hence finished second). The Ferrari team orders arguably gave Alonso 7 extra points (and I say arguably because we don't know with 100% certainty what would have happened if he had tried to overtake Massa).

I don't see that much of a difference, to be honest. Without those two points Hamilton would have lost the WDC to Massa.

[brembo man]

Just wait until next year, Nico will need permission to breath. Whoever supplies Merc's car radios will be there main interest,that there tuned to perfection. MS and Ross are team orders!

[mad_ani]

The stewards of the race did not investigate the incident then unlike now...

no complaint was made by Ferrari or any other team and the matter was closed...

[Rishu]

All Rob needed to say was that "Fernando is inside 3 s of............................... You"
Thats all. Even Ferrari would have avoided punishment

1. Can you confirm
2. Sorry
3. Magnanimous

That was poor execution

Having said that it is clear that FIA are consistent in only one thing........ Inconsistency :-)

[paneristi]

shouldve sent this video to the governing body. They got some amnesia, perhaps

[sav_pap]

About the video, yeah Lewis did win the title 1 point, Germany helped, but to be fair he still had to pass Massa on track that day even with Heikki moving, and pass Massa he did :-( It was a clear team order though much like ours, but I don't see why the title standings are brought into it :-)

but we'll never know if he was capable to pass Kovalainen

[steelstallions]

If this had happened whilst the Ferrari car was not competitive it would have been left at EJ spouting his mouth off. No sooner does the Ferrari get competitive and a threat for the Championships and they will make a meal of this team order wanting every punishment on offer. The bigger the meal they make of it the more it will come back to bite them on the rear.
For example, Lewis is behind Button and needs the extra points but Button is on form and keeping an healthy gap, no matter how subtle they are everyone will look at the over take and listen to the commentary like never before.

[scuderia_nano]

I dont know why, but it seems Massa and his camp are not too confortable playing second fiddle to Alonso?:Hmm

[REDARMYSOJA]

I dont know why, but it seems Alonso and his camp are not too good at passing that second fiddle Massa.

[Greig]

I dont know why, but it seems Alonso and his camp are not too good at passing that second fiddle Massa.

Apart from in Bahrain and China you mean? ;-)

[Meiga]

I dont know why, but it seems Alonso and his camp are not too good at passing that second fiddle Massa.

He did in China, but then he was criticised because he was too aggressive... probably he is trying different alternatives to see if one of them has universal approval! :-P

[REDARMYSOJA]

Apart from in Bahrain and China you mean? ;-)

Well, it was a bonzai move in China that I'm sure Felipe wasn't expecting. kudos to Alonso for pulling it off cleanly. But I don't see how anyone would expect Felipe to be comfortable "playing second fiddle to Alonso". I understand why he had to cede the position to Alonso, and he could have handles it better, but I don't blame him for not liking it.

[Hermann]

Well, it was a bonzai move in China that I'm sure Felipe wasn't expecting. kudos to Alonso for pulling it off cleanly. But I don't see how anyone would expect Felipe to be comfortable "playing second fiddle to Alonso". I understand why he had to cede the position to Alonso, and he could have handles it better, but I don't blame him for not liking it.

I'm very sure no-one, not even the 'militant Alonso- fans', blamed Massa for not liking the info 'Fernando is faster than you'.

[Suzie]

I dont know why, but it seems Massa and his camp are not too confortable playing second fiddle to Alonso?:Hmm

An F1 driver doesn't like being second? SHOCKING!!

[AhF1Ah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63ocC1KsV0

I can't beleive they didn't rule that correctly. "sigh"

[brembo man]

Lewis needed that break and got it . One point did the trick.No need to wonder why team orders came into play. Todt called team orders when MS was ahead by 1,000 points. It's not the same thing. He was and is a bum. He's now not going to weigh in on Fia's decision now even though he's the Pres. Finnally he has some shame!

[theforce]

that pass in hungary was the right decision in any language as it was worth 7 points. That is 7 points ferrari cannot afford to gamble with given the 2007 and 2008 WDC was won and lost by a single point:-E. Massa has every right to dislike the decision but should remember what happened b/n alonso and lewis when they were taking points off each other in 07 (both drivers lost), which I'm hoping that Mclaren and red bulls continue to do.:-D