WMSC Hearing - What's gonna happen?

[Raz]

Hi all, haven't posted for a while..

What do you all think is going to happen at the WMSC hearing for Ferrari, noting the fact that it's on the Wednesday before the Italian GP.

[Tech_Skill]

WMSC: You done team orders

FERRARI: You have no proof

WMSC: True, case closed.

[Tifosi]

Ferrari will be punished by being forced to have Niki Lauda on their pitwall for the rest of the season to tell on them if they do anything he wouldn't do....

[Ferrari Man]

I would say worst case scenario Ferrari will have their constructors points from the german grand prix taken a way and maybe a fine.. Can't get a more serious punishment than that especially when the whole grid use team orders and we were just stupid in the way we applied ours..

[Stormsearcher]

On closer inspection, they will find out that it was Ron dennis who hacked into our radio and sent that message to Felipe.
McLaren will be fined and for good measure they will dock lewsers points for the last race as well. :lol
sigh.. if wishes were horses..

[Guailo]

Willing to put money on suspended sentence, punishment will hopefully be fairly severe and not monetary.

Never agreed with team orders. Hopefully this will see the end. No one or team ,regardless of their position within the sport, should be allowed to fix races; should be considered fraud with criminal action.

[Stormsearcher]

Willing to put money on suspended sentence, punishment will hopefully be fairly severe and not monetary.

Never agreed with team orders. Hopefully this will see the end. No one or team ,regardless of their position within the sport, should be allowed to fix races; should be considered fraud with criminal action.

Maybe we should even do away with substitutions at football matches. How dare they ask one player to leave the field for the benefit of another. Disgraceful!!

[Guailo]

Maybe we should even do away with substitutions at football matches. How dare they ask one player to leave the field for the benefit of another. Disgraceful!!

Nice attempt at sarcasm, but hardly a suitable comparison. A more appropriate comparison would be banning diving and punishing those that continue to do it. It's the pansy divers that are disgraceful!

But, then again, I don't give a crap about football; I could care less what they do.

[Hornet]

Willing to put money on suspended sentence, punishment will hopefully be fairly severe and not monetary.

Never agreed with team orders. Hopefully this will see the end. No one or team ,regardless of their position within the sport, should be allowed to fix races; should be considered fraud with criminal action.
That's where you are wrong.

Fixing a match, as they say in football, is when the competing teams decide outside the field who won, usually through bribery or something along that line

Team orders are not fixing races, because to fix a race, you have to involve all or a majority of competitors in the competition, and different competitors agree to stage a false race.

Here, Ferrari and both drivers are a single entity. You do not have 2 or more entity. The only thing that the team have influence on is within the team itself, but you can't fix races by yourself. F1 is a race which involves over 10 team, its not a Ferrari event where 2 Ferrari driver slug it out to see who wins. So when you say race, you refer to a competition involving many different team.

You don't exactly have independent driver, so drivers are not an entity in the competition by themself, rather, they are the employee of a competing team.

[REDARMYSOJA]

That's where you are wrong.

Fixing a match, as they say in football, is when the competing teams decide outside the field who won, usually through bribery or something along that line

Team orders are not fixing races, because to fix a race, you have to involve all or a majority of competitors in the competition, and different competitors agree to stage a false race.

Here, Ferrari and both drivers are a single entity. You do not have 2 or more entity. The only thing that the team have influence on is within the team itself, but you can't fix races by yourself. F1 is a race which involves over 10 team, its not a Ferrari event where 2 Ferrari driver slug it out to see who wins. So when you say race, you refer to a competition involving many different team.

You don't exactly have independent driver, so drivers are not an entity in the competition by themself, rather, they are the employee of a competing team.

Agreed, calling it "race fixing" is BS.

[epiclyaddicted]

I'm willing to bet on nothing major happening. It's couple of days before Monza, the Italian Tifosi are gonna run riots even if the FIA/WMSC even think about anything severe. No matter what everyone say, Ferrari mean too much to F1.

And people should really bugger off and stop mixing team orders with race fixing. At Hockenheim, Ferrari were running FIRST and SECOND throughout the race, and that's how they finished the race. What Piquet Jr./Symonds/Briatore did was (alleged) race fixing. So the haters should get their facts straight first.

[Suzie]

In a rare show of optimism, I'm going for a slap on the wrist and maybe an extra fine.
Pre-Monza? There'd be uproar if there was anything more serious done.

[Raz]

they couldn't have timed it at a worst date?
it's like if Schumi/Vettel gettin banned from Germany or something..

I hope for the sake of "consistancy" FIA give just a bigger fine.
cos what Mcliars did in 2007 was a million times worst, and should have been excluded from the 2007 and 2008 season. yet they walked of with a $100mil fine and 0 points

[Guailo]

That's where you are wrong.

Fixing a match, as they say in football, is when the competing teams decide outside the field who won, usually through bribery or something along that line

Team orders are not fixing races, because to fix a race, you have to involve all or a majority of competitors in the competition, and different competitors agree to stage a false race.

Here, Ferrari and both drivers are a single entity. You do not have 2 or more entity. The only thing that the team have influence on is within the team itself, but you can't fix races by yourself. F1 is a race which involves over 10 team, its not a Ferrari event where 2 Ferrari driver slug it out to see who wins. So when you say race, you refer to a competition involving many different team.

You don't exactly have independent driver, so drivers are not an entity in the competition by themself, rather, they are the employee of a competing team.

So, are you saying Singapore 2008 wasn't race fixing? Only involved 1 team and a handful of people... As far as I'm concerned your analysis/explanation is way off. Staging a false result is the same as fixing the entire race, my opinion is its fraud.

Sport fixing definition:
In organized sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or PARTIALLY pre-determined result.

So, when a team enters a race knowing that one driver has a better chance to win WDC and they request a change in position to establish the resulting finishing positions, that is indeed race fixing; according to definition. Like it or not.

[NJB13]

So, are you saying Singapore 2008 wasn't race fixing? Only involved 1 team and a handful of people... As far as I'm concerned your analysis/explanation is way off. Staging a false result is the same as fixing the entire race, my opinion is its fraud.

Sport fixing definition:
In organized sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or PARTIALLY pre-determined result.

So, when a team enters a race knowing that one driver has a better chance to win WDC and they request a change in position to establish the resulting finishing positions, that is indeed race fixing; according to definition. Like it or not.

Hi Guailo, a simple question, in any team sport, can team-mates help each other?

[GrndLkNatv]

WMSC: You done team orders

FERRARI: You have no proof

WMSC: True, case closed.

Considering they are in Como, add in a few bottles of wine, great food, lots of laughs and same result.

[mad_ani]

Hi Guailo, a simple question, in any team sport, can team-mates help each other?

But in this case, Alonso and Massa are competitors and rivals as well. The fans and the FIA would want to see competition and rivalry on track with good and clean racing and not race positions being surrendered meekly when both drivers are in contention of winning a event. . Team-mates have helped each other when one driver is fully out of contention from the championship. Also Alonso did not pull away massively after being released by Massa...Massa was within a 5 second cushion till the finish inspite of Alonso putting in some fast laps

Yes, Hekki surrendered his position to Lewis at the same place 2 yrs bk, however, the stewards nor the teams complained and no action was taken..

[Brakefade]

Nothing will happen as I'm sure Ferrari will bring up several instances were other teams obviously used team orders. I just hope JT stays away from this and makes no comments to the press about it, because anything short of condemning Ferrari, will be treated as favoritism by the press and general Ferrari haters.

[mad_ani]

JT is away from all of this

[elekvault]

I think they will fine Ferrari again, and suggest using "magic fuel deposits" like the McCheaters.

I don't like team orders, but I cannot stop thinking they are on a crusade or something against Ferrari, while ignoring others' blatant rule violations (others = Hamilton).

[killer]

In a rare show of optimism, I'm going for a slap on the wrist and maybe an extra fine.
Pre-Monza? There'd be uproar if there was anything more serious done.

I don't see the logic in giving an extra fine, to be honest. That would be tantamount to the FIA admitting they got it wrong the first time. Having said that, they won't let them off easily either. I do hope you're right, Suzie, but I think--barring an extremely convincing argument from the Team (hopefully the 3-second agreement is the card played)--we're gonna get docked the Germany points. :-( There'd be an uproar, yes, but when did the powers-that-be ever listen to us?

On a side note: I'm really hoping all this, if anything, brings up enough cause to discuss the removal of the team orders ban.

[NJB13]

I don't see the logic in giving an extra fine, to be honest. That would be tantamount to the FIA admitting they got it wrong the first time. Having said that, they won't let them off easily either. I do hope you're right, Suzie, but I think--barring an extremely convincing argument from the Team (hopefully the 3-second agreement is the card played)--we're gonna get docked the Germany points. :-( There'd be an uproar, yes, but when did the powers-that-be ever listen to us?

On a side note: I'm really hoping all this, if anything, brings up enough cause to discuss the removal of the team orders ban.

Killer, I think 100K (which is what we were fined at Germany) is the max that can be given by the RD/Stewards. They gave us the max they could then referred it to the WMSC. So, a heftier fine is on the cards.
I do however hope that if they do try to hit us with anything (of significance) more, then we drag them and the farcical rule through the courts. I'd just love to see them try to justify what they do and don't penalise.
Can't agree with you more that, hopefully the whole rediculous "team orders" rule is dumped.

[NJB13]

But in this case, Alonso and Massa are competitors and rivals as well. The fans and the FIA would want to see competition and rivalry on track with good and clean racing and not race positions being surrendered meekly when both drivers are in contention of winning a event. . Team-mates have helped each other when one driver is fully out of contention from the championship. Also Alonso did not pull away massively after being released by Massa...Massa was within a 5 second cushion till the finish inspite of Alonso putting in some fast laps

Yes, Hekki surrendered his position to Lewis at the same place 2 yrs bk, however, the stewards nor the teams complained and no action was taken..

Let me see if I got your bent on this right:-
1 - Team-mates, driving for the same team, who pays them, and who they are supposed to win the WCC for, are "rivals" and "competitors". Great assessment MA
2 - The FIA and fans want to see team mates fighting each other and definitely not helping their team-mate.
3 - #2 is actually not right because team-mates "can" help each other as long as someone can somehow show that one of them is out of contention for the WDC. Under these circumstances the "FIA" and "fans" that didn't like the "meek surrender" of positions suddenly see the team view and now think it is part of the team thing
4 - Alonso did pull away from Massa, but because it wasn't "massive" it negates the fact that he did pull away
5 - As long as the stewards igore or don't "complain" then anything and everything is hunky-dory and ok
A team and team-mates always try and help each other - thats what being a team is.

[Anni]

In my opinion it will all depend on the rules for the future.
If the no-team-order-rule is going to be disestablished we might get away unpunished.
If the rule will still be there in the future we might face harsh punishment. But I don´t see how they want to prove the team-order. The only thing that gave the FIA an option for punishment was the word "sorry" and how will they prove Smedley appologized for a team-order and not for the fact Massa´s car wasn´t fast enought? We and they all KNOW what that "sorry" was about, but to KNOW something is not the same as to PROVE something.

[mad_ani]

Well the same questions will probably be asked by the WMSC as to why

a) Alonso said it was ridiculous...what was ridiculous???
b) Massa had to be reminded 3 times about Alonso being faster than him..
c) Why was Rob Smedly sorry for a car not suiting his driver...and why the words magnanimous
d) Why did Massa let someone let Alonso pass. There was no problem with his car.It is a race that fans watch,a sport, although the teams run thier business.It would have made no difference to WCC.

Simply put, I dont want the WMSC to penalise us any further...we are a far more prestigious team than needing team orders to win races and championships..Why was Luca di M so apprehensive that Massa and Alonso would take each other out??Our drivers have 15 years of combined racing exp...

[elekvault]

a) Alonso said it was ridiculous...what was ridiculous???


My guess is that he was not pleased with they way Massa was defending his position, closing the door for Alonso when he and everyone knew he was faster (nos fast enough for overtaking anyway). Team and drivers most likely talk about this situation during the weekend before the race, and they probably agree not to get into a risky situation like Vettel and Webber did, something like "if you can overtake me, just do it and I won't get in your way", and maybe Massa just didn't follow whatever they agreed. I'm not saying it happened like this, it's just a possible explanation that came to my mind.



b) Massa had to be reminded 3 times about Alonso being faster than him.


Engineer just giving him info?



c) Why was Rob Smedly sorry for a car not suiting his driver...and why the words magnanimous.


I guess this question could be also it's answer. Why wouldn't he be sorry for not delivering a better car? Maybe they expected more or promised Massa the best car and that's why he was magnanimous?



d) Why did Massa let someone let Alonso pass. There was no problem with his car.It is a race that fans watch,a sport, although the teams run thier business.It would have made no difference to WCC.


This one is the problem IMO. Massa obviously let Alonso pass, but that itself is not punishable. They have to show proof it was a team order and not a Massa's decision. And I mean real proof, not just guessings based on loose words or on post-race faces...

[neermsc]

WE did not impede another team's result and none of our drivers has a problem.......so the WMSC should just close the case there and then....why even pay the extra fine???.......but only if rob had not said "sorry".....:)

[Meiga]

c) Why was Rob Smedly sorry for a car not suiting his driver...and why the words magnanimous
Actually, the interesting thing is that if you look up the definition of "magnanimous", it being applied to Massa would hint that he actually left Alonso by of his own accord...

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Actually, the interesting thing is that if you look up the definition of "magnanimous", it being applied to Massa would hint that he actually left Alonso by of his own accord...

Exactly.....
magnanimity - munificence: liberality in bestowing gifts; extremely liberal and generous of spirit"......now why would he be magnanimous if he was ordered to move and not moved out of his own free will or as a gift to Nando?

[mad_ani]

My guess is that he was not pleased with they way Massa was defending his position, closing the door for Alonso when he and everyone knew he was faster (nos fast enough for overtaking anyway). Team and drivers most likely talk about this situation during the weekend before the race, and they probably agree not to get into a risky situation like Vettel and Webber did, something like "if you can overtake me, just do it and I won't get in your way", and maybe Massa just didn't follow whatever they agreed. I'm not saying it happened like this, it's just a possible explanation that came to my mind.



Engineer just giving him info?



I guess this question could be also it's answer. Why wouldn't he be sorry for not delivering a better car? Maybe they expected more or promised Massa the best car and that's why he was magnanimous?



This one is the problem IMO. Massa obviously let Alonso pass, but that itself is not punishable. They have to show proof it was a team order and not a Massa's decision. And I mean real proof, not just guessings based on loose words or on post-race faces...

Well the exact sequence of events of radio transmissions make it highly suspicious that it was not a team order..Being radioed 3 times in 2-3 laps that your team mate is faster.??
Why were Ferrari and Rob not sorry many times before...it was not the first time that Massa has struggled with hard tires
F1 is not about gifting wins to someone.Its a race.
It was not pre arranged for Massa to let Alonso.It was a decision taken during the race...Again, it all happened only after Alonso said "this is ridiculous". He had repeated the same words in Australia, but no one reminded Massa that Alonso was faster than him...

[lizard_nl]

I hope that Ferrari show that the other teams especially Mac have done this numerous times in the past. Just off the top:
-2008-how many times did heiki mover over because of this or that reason
-2010-jenson told to save fuel

[elekvault]

Well the exact sequence of events of radio transmissions make it highly suspicious that it was not a team order..Being radioed 3 times in 2-3 laps that your team mate is faster.??
Why were Ferrari and Rob not sorry many times before...it was not the first time that Massa has struggled with hard tires
F1 is not about gifting wins to someone.Its a race.
It was not pre arranged for Massa to let Alonso.It was a decision taken during the race...Again, it all happened only after Alonso said "this is ridiculous". He had repeated the same words in Australia, but no one reminded Massa that Alonso was faster than him...

You didn't understood me quite right. I'm not saying they arranged that Massa let Alonso pass. I'm just GUESSING that MAYBE they arranged NOT TO TAKE RISKS when one of them was about to overtake the other (meaning that the one in front doesn't change his direction when the other is overtaking), no matter who of the two is in front. That's substantially different than "if you reach me, I'll let you pass".

Of course the radio conversations are suspicious, but suspicion is NOT ENOUGH to CONDEMN anyone, you need SOLID PROOF, no matter how obvious it may look.

And again, I DO NOT SUPPORT team orders and I like to watch them race, but I also like Ferrari and I think the team has been punished more than enough for this. I was just trying to give some possible explanation to those possible questions from my point of view.

:thumb

[REDARMYSOJA]

They have to show proof it was a team order and not a Massa's decision. And I mean real proof, not just guessings based on loose words or on post-race faces...

Good point. Are either of the drivers going to be at the hearing? Anyone know?

[epiclyaddicted]

Another reason why I think the WMSC will let us off, is because if they do hit us with something severe, we can drag them off to the civil court and THAT's when it starts getting interesting.

[Jack]

I don't understand some posts here. Let's forget Ferrari and let's just assume that there is a team (any team) called P with two drivers called X and Y.

Team P has some chances of winning the WCC. Driver X has more chances of winning the WDC than driver Y. At some point of a race, driver X is behind driver Y.

Are you saying that driver X should attack driver Y and driver Y should defend his position against driver X as hard as against any other driver/team? :-E

Is sensible to risk the total amount of points with a fight between drivers belonging to the same team?

What can be said about those journalists whose answer in blogs or forums to the previous question is "yeah, let's them fight"?

My answer is that they would be very happy seeing team P losing all the points and the two drivers finishing DNF.

Please feel free to change P to Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault or whatever. Same for drivers X and Y, they could be Fernando and Felipe, Felipe and Fernando, or any other pair of drivers.

[evo_spook]

Another reason why I think the WMSC will let us off, is because if they do hit us with something severe, we can drag them off to the civil court and THAT's when it starts getting interesting.

Wouldn't wait for that, it is never ever going to happen, never. Take FIA to court due to them breaking one of the rules that they have signed up to compete under, they'd be wasting court time.

[killer]

Killer, I think 100K (which is what we were fined at Germany) is the max that can be given by the RD/Stewards. They gave us the max they could then referred it to the WMSC. So, a heftier fine is on the cards.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Still not too upbeat about the possible results. Whatever happens, the WMSC can decide on the issue technically, but not on a nope-I-didn't-notice-that-huge-gorilla-strolling-about-the-paddock level.

[mad_ani]

Another reason why I think the WMSC will let us off, is because if they do hit us with something severe, we can drag them off to the civil court and THAT's when it starts getting interesting.

No thats when it will start getting absolutely stupid. We need to concentrate on the track and not on court cases. The managements time during the last few races is critical.

[mad_ani]

You didn't understood me quite right. I'm not saying they arranged that Massa let Alonso pass. I'm just GUESSING that MAYBE they arranged NOT TO TAKE RISKS when one of them was about to overtake the other (meaning that the one in front doesn't change his direction when the other is overtaking), no matter who of the two is in front. That's substantially different than "if you reach me, I'll let you pass".

Of course the radio conversations are suspicious, but suspicion is NOT ENOUGH to CONDEMN anyone, you need SOLID PROOF, no matter how obvious it may look.

And again, I DO NOT SUPPORT team orders and I like to watch them race, but I also like Ferrari and I think the team has been punished more than enough for this. I was just trying to give some possible explanation to those possible questions from my point of view.

:thumb

Thats the whole point of contention. I would have liked to see Alonso take the fight to Massa and make a clean overtaking move. Thats what the fans would like to see. the stewards have punished us with a heafty fine...I am guessing a heavier fine would come about or docking the constructor points from that race...Possibly a similar quantum of punishment like Mclaren faced in Hungary 2007.

[Agron]

Thats the whole point of contention. I would have liked to see Alonso take the fight to Massa and make a clean overtaking move. Thats what the fans would like to see. the stewards have punished us with a heafty fine...I am guessing a heavier fine would come about or docking the constructor points from that race...Possibly a similar quantum of punishment like Mclaren faced in Hungary 2007.F1 fans maybe, you on the other, just like most Kimi fanboys seems to watch the races to find reasons to criticize Alonso XD
He overtook Massa in China in a daring move, exactly the same as Hamilton, yet everyone criticized only him because it was dangerous for his teammate, with many hoping Massa would next time send him into the gravel. Now he didn't overtook his teammate because Felipe was defending quite dangerously, and it's again his fault for not being able to overtake.

I guess it's not worth it to come to the forum after a bad result from Alonso, "those" get out of their caves.

[mad_ani]

F1 fans maybe, you on the other, just like most Kimi fanboys seems to watch the races to find reasons to criticize Alonso XD
He overtook Massa in China in a daring move, exactly the same as Hamilton, yet everyone criticized only him because it was dangerous for his teammate, with many hoping Massa would next time send him into the gravel. Now he didn't overtook his teammate because Felipe was defending quite dangerously, and it's again his fault for not being able to overtake.

I guess it's not worth it to come to the forum after a bad result from Alonso, "those" get out of their caves.

Lol, There was no criticism of Alonso in my post and yet you, find something to talk about China, Hamilton etc and deviate the topic :)
Maybe you should go back to your cave rather than attacking posters

[GregoryJenkins]

We and they all KNOW what that "sorry" was about, but to KNOW something is not the same as to PROVE something.

Since when did the FIA rely on proof? I read through the manuscript of the 'spygate' hearing and there was no conclusive proof. Like I mean obviously they did it, but it was never really proven. This team orders case is much less serious but the FiA still know we did it...just like every person on here. It's a kangeroo court and they can do what they like - which is what makes the FiA dangerous....they could do anything to us.

[wappad]

Imagine how much energy so many people already have put into this matter.

I will cross my fingers next week Wednesday and Thursday, because as always the FIA will need an extra night of sleep to come up with
the verdict :-) !

It was a well- deserved victory for us, no other team was hurt. So it would be race-fixing if they scrap the best team out of the results or..?

But I'm prepared for the worst. Media put so much pressure on this.

Maybe a little bit off topic: I'm supporting Ferrari since '77 and like all the tifosi had to get through the WDC- less '80-'99 period. So I fully
understand Ferrari's act in Hockenheim eventhough it was made in a clumsy way.. :-)! A Ferrari- driver crowned WDC is the ultimate
experience for every Ferrari- fan no matter which of our 2 drivers succeeds.

[Jack]

Thats the whole point of contention. I would have liked to see Alonso take the fight to Massa and make a clean overtaking move. Thats what the fans would like to see. the stewards have punished us with a heafty fine...I am guessing a heavier fine would come about or docking the constructor points from that race...Possibly a similar quantum of punishment like Mclaren faced in Hungary 2007.

Today in F1 is almost impossible to overtake a car as fast as yours. Such maneuver would be very very risky.

[Agron]

Lol, There was no criticism of Alonso in my post and yet you, find something to talk about China, Hamilton etc and deviate the topic :)
Maybe you should go back to your cave rather than attacking postersI'll explain further, as it seems you fail to understand my point, or more probably, feign ignorance: regarding Alonso, you always have double standards, in this case, again, you say you would have liked for him to take the fight to Massa, yet when he overtook him in a previous track you quickly tore at his throat.
When 2 teammates with equal cars and similar strategies -because this year unless it rains everyone does the same- overtake each other, it's always by the slightest margin, increasing the danger. (Edit: As Jack said)

[red5]

Some "Impossible overtakings" this season (on track,no team orders):
- Malaysia : Vettel on Webber
- Turkey: Button on Hamster (with payback some minutes later)
- Spa: Michael on Rosberg (recovered by Nico with a few laps to go)

Wow..I'm watching an entirely different season xD

[mad_ani]

I'll explain further, as it seems you fail to understand my point, or more probably, feign ignorance: regarding Alonso, you always have double standards, in this case, again, you say you would have liked for him to take the fight to Massa, yet when he overtook him in a previous track you quickly tore at his throat.
When 2 teammates with equal cars and similar strategies -because this year unless it rains everyone does the same- overtake each other, it's always by the slightest margin, increasing the danger. (Edit: As Jack said)

I'd have said that probably with respect to china where both cars would have ended in gravel trap..
Here on the track in Germany, we have run off areas a wider track, while near the pitlane in China...there isnt any..

There have been team mates who have overtaken each other this year....

[Agron]

Some "Impossible overtakings" this season (on track,no team orders):
- Malaysia : Vettel on Webber
- Turkey: Button on Hamster (with payback some minutes later)
- Spa: Michael on Rosberg (recovered by Nico with a few laps to go)

Wow..I'm watching an entirely different season xD
Button on Hamilton was caused by the team telling one of their drivers both were saving gas (AKA team orders), and one of them ignoring them.
You forgot to mention Red Bull in Turkey, too, there were rumours that considering the team and drivers reactions there might be an agreement to let Vettel past.

So, of 6 overtakes between teammates there is reasonable suspicion 3 were caused by team orders (McLaren and RB in Turkey, Ferrari in Hungary), and one of those ended in disaster regardless. Keep those great examples coming.

[red5]

Button on Hamilton was caused by the team telling one of their drivers both were saving gas (AKA team orders), and one of them ignoring them.
You forgot to mention Red Bull in Turkey, too, there were rumours that considering the team and drivers reactions there might be an agreement to let Vettel past.

So, of 6 overtakes between teammates there is reasonable suspicion 3 were caused by team orders (McLaren and RB in Turkey, Ferrari in Hungary), and one of those ended in disaster regardless. Keep those great examples coming.

You're right,I should have added the "RedBull-gate" at Turkey,and the most difficult and outstanding overtake of the season - withing teammates - thus far: Alonso on Massa at Germany :roll

[Jack]

As I said before, it is almost impossible to overtake an identical car. Not impossible but almost impossible, there is a slight difference. Anyway it is a risky operation. No team manager with a minimum common sense should allow such dangerous fight between his drivers.

[Tifoso]

As I said before, it is almost impossible to overtake an identical car. Not impossible but almost impossible, there is a slight difference. Anyway it is a risky operation. No team manager with a minimum common sense should allow such dangerous fight between his drivers.

Excellent point. :-)

[hudson77]

+1 :thumb

[NJB13]

Button on Hamilton was caused by the team telling one of their drivers both were saving gas (AKA team orders), and one of them ignoring them.
You forgot to mention Red Bull in Turkey, too, there were rumours that considering the team and drivers reactions there might be an agreement to let Vettel past.

So, of 6 overtakes between teammates there is reasonable suspicion 3 were caused by team orders (McLaren and RB in Turkey, Ferrari in Hungary), and one of those ended in disaster regardless. Keep those great examples coming.

Adding to the Button-Hamilton overtake at Turkey, over team radio Lewser asked specifically "Will he (JB) pass me" team radio answered "No" now, how can the team "know" what a driver will do and who he will or will not pass unless there is a prearranged team order???

[Mollydog]

I say scrape drivers championship points, then to the team it wont mater which driver wins. As I see it at the moment, I don’t want to go to my local bookies to put money down on the driver I think will win at a certain GP, only to fine in the last few laps he’s been told to let his mate though. If a team can decide who of its two drivers should win a race then get rid of the drivers championship points as I don’t see much point in them (pun not intended)

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

I say scrape drivers championship points, then to the team it wont mater which driver wins. As I see it at the moment, I don’t want to go to my local bookies to put money down on the driver I think will win at a certain GP, only to fine in the last few laps he’s been told to let his mate though. If a team can decide who of its two drivers should win a race then get rid of the drivers championship points as I don’t see much point in them (pun not intended)

That's actually your problem! You decided to waste your spare money on a bet where EVERYONE knows team orders still exist!

[Sempre_Ferrari]

That's actually your problem! You decided to waste your spare money on a bet where EVERYONE knows team orders still exist!

+1 :thumb

[Brakefade]

Gambling, other than the usual 5 bucks/quid with your buddy, is a disgusting habit.

[REDARMYSOJA]

I say scrape drivers championship points, then to the team it wont mater which driver wins. As I see it at the moment, I don’t want to go to my local bookies to put money down on the driver I think will win at a certain GP, only to fine in the last few laps he’s been told to let his mate though. If a team can decide who of its two drivers should win a race then get rid of the drivers championship points as I don’t see much point in them (pun not intended)

I could care less if you lose your bet. That has no bearing on whether or not team orders should be allowed. This isn't horse racing.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Are either of the drivers going to be at the hearing? Anyone know?

To answer my own question...



Ferrari's race drivers have been summoned by the FIA to the forthcoming disciplinary hearing of the World Motor Sport Council.

That is the claim of the Spanish sports daily AS, which on Friday said both Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa must appear either in person in Paris or via video link.


LINK>>Massa, Alonso, summoned to FIA team orders hearing (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=385021)

[epiclyaddicted]

To the people who are complaining about team orders because they bet on their favourite drivers and lost money on the bet due to team order in the race, well it serves them right I say! I work very hard for my money, and won't throw it away betting on a sport which I know has had team orders for as long as the sport has existed. So if anyone had bet on Massa for the German GP and lost a lot of money... well tough luck mate!

[Katu]

LINK>>Massa, Alonso, summoned to FIA team orders hearing (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=385021)
i wonder if they invited smedley too?

[Tifosi]

i wonder if they invited smedley too?

they did but he didnt understand the message ;-)

[NJB13]

I say scrape drivers championship points, then to the team it wont mater which driver wins. As I see it at the moment, I don’t want to go to my local bookies to put money down on the driver I think will win at a certain GP, only to fine in the last few laps he’s been told to let his mate though. If a team can decide who of its two drivers should win a race then get rid of the drivers championship points as I don’t see much point in them (pun not intended)

My God! Team-mates working together as a team! Unbelievable, how could anybody possibly have factored that into something that might have happened. Still, now that I've read this I realize fixing must be rife in all sports. I heard someone bet on Kuyt scoring Liverpool's first goal last week, but, guess what - he was in the box and PASSED the ball to Torres! An unbelievable straight out proof of "Fixing". I also heard that Liverpool players, before the game had a plan to fix the match so they would win! I just can't understand how this sort of blatant fixing is allowed to go on. I rekon now that this is out, no-one will risk betting on goals and games in the Premier league ever again.

[Ant Raikkonen]

To the people who are complaining about team orders because they bet on their favourite drivers and lost money on the bet due to team order in the race, well it serves them right I say! I work very hard for my money, and won't throw it away betting on a sport which I know has had team orders for as long as the sport has existed. So if anyone had bet on Massa for the German GP and lost a lot of money... well tough luck mate!

Indeed. I don't buy the "but but but....what about all the people who placed bets" argument.
I also work hard for my pennies & i don't believe in gambling.
I just think i'm not a "gambling" person by nature.

[epiclyaddicted]

My God! Team-mates working together as a team! Unbelievable, how could anybody possibly have factored that into something that might have happened. Still, now that I've read this I realize fixing must be rife in all sports. I heard someone bet on Kuyt scoring Liverpool's first goal last week, but, guess what - he was in the box and PASSED the ball to Torres! An unbelievable straight out proof of "Fixing". I also heard that Liverpool players, before the game had a plan to fix the match so they would win! I just can't understand how this sort of blatant fixing is allowed to go on. I rekon now that this is out, no-one will risk betting on goals and games in the Premier league ever again.

Quote for truth. Perfect reply mate! :thumb

[Salvador Dali]

To the people who are complaining about team orders because they bet on their favourite drivers and lost money on the bet due to team order in the race, well it serves them right I say! I work very hard for my money, and won't throw it away betting on a sport which I know has had team orders for as long as the sport has existed. So if anyone had bet on Massa for the German GP and lost a lot of money... well tough luck mate!

Sorry m8 but that is just bull...
IF placing a bet is a no no, then there is fraud since betting is allowed! If F1 is placed on the betting table than there is no room for team orders. I know that team orders are part of F1 and I support that notion as I also never bet BUT since TO were baned in 2002 and race fixing is a CAPITAL no no, then sorry no judge will say tough luck mate... You all are just being silly IMHO.

As for what will the hearing bring I suspect a heavy bill and a slap on the wrist... just hope not to hard...

[Greig]

Don't see what betting has to do with anything really, F1 does not get any money from betting as far as I know, so why should betting be taken into account?

You can bet on Tour de France correct?

[Hermann]

To bet on tour de epo you need to know who is getting the best stuff.....:lol

[epiclyaddicted]

Sorry m8 but that is just bull...
IF placing a bet is a no no, then there is fraud since betting is allowed! If F1 is placed on the betting table than there is no room for team orders. I know that team orders are part of F1 and I support that notion as I also never bet BUT since TO were baned in 2002 and race fixing is a CAPITAL no no, then sorry no judge will say tough luck mate... You all are just being silly IMHO.

As for what will the hearing bring I suspect a heavy bill and a slap on the wrist... just hope not to hard...

Ok, I've said this before, and saying it again: team orders and race fixing is NOT the same thing. For heaven's sake, Ferrari implemented team orders in Germany, yes, but it was NOT race fixing. They were due to finish 1st and 2nd in that race, and that's the result they had from that race. Swapping the team mates around for the better of the team is team order, NOT race fixing. Not in this case anyway, so let's get that clarified first, ok?

As for betting, not sure you understood my first post properly. I never said people betting on F1 should never be allowed - that's up to the bookies anyway, not the FIA. But F1, as a sport, does not or should not have any sort of commitment towards the bookies or those who place the bets. As Greig mentioned, F1 doesn't receive any money from betting!

Team orders have been "technically" banned since 2002, but if someone thinks F1 (or any form of motorsport for that matter that features more than one car in a team) has never had team orders since then, then they're being "silly" themselves.

And you said you never bet. So why did it bother you so much that I slated off those who do bet in F1?

I don't have a problem with people who do bet money on sports. If someone wants to throw their money down the drain, it's their choice. But I look at it this way: I enjoy F1 as a (team) sport, which features the pinnacle of world motorsport. And for the teams participating, it's a multi-million dollar business involving huge corporations, and so they will do what they have to do to protect their own interests (which is winning the World Championship). Why should anyone involved here give two hoots by betting?!

[Agron]

Sorry m8 but that is just bull...
IF placing a bet is a no no, then there is fraud since betting is allowed! If F1 is placed on the betting table than there is no room for team orders. I know that team orders are part of F1 and I support that notion as I also never bet BUT since TO were baned in 2002 and race fixing is a CAPITAL no no, then sorry no judge will say tough luck mate... You all are just being silly IMHO.

As for what will the hearing bring I suspect a heavy bill and a slap on the wrist... just hope not to hard...No offence intended but that's retarded. You can bet on man walking on mars before 2030, but no judge will fine NASA for cancelling their Mars program and making you lose your bet, unless you are that judge.
Bets are strictly private, between those that offer bets and the dumb people who accept those bets, in no way a company that gets no benefit from said bets should even remotely take into consideration the interests of the people making bets.

BTW, Mercedes focusing on next year is as problematic for those that bet on them being 4th or better in the constructors, for example, but it seems that if there's no Alonso nor Ferrari in it then it doesn't matter.

[Suzie]

Have read that Helmut Marko wants Felipe and Fernando to be stripped off their points, which I find ridiculous. What happened between our drivers didn't affect Red Bull's performance or their drivers races particularly.

[Rob]

Have read that Helmut Marko wants Felipe and Fernando to be stripped off their points, which I find ridiculous. What happened between our drivers didn't affect Red Bull's performance or their drivers races particularly.

:roll

[racingbradley]

Some of us may not have liked it but in the scheme of things we did nothing wrong. All teams have team orders but maybe a little less obvious!!!!!!!
We should get away with it maybe smacked wrists!!!!!:-)

[Suzie]

I feel sorry for the drivers having to go, they were just pawns really. They better not be mean to Felipe :furious

[Salvador Dali]

No offence intended but that's retarded. You can bet on man walking on mars before 2030, but no judge will fine NASA for cancelling their Mars program and making you lose your bet, unless you are that judge.
Bets are strictly private, between those that offer bets and the dumb people who accept those bets, in no way a company that gets no benefit from said bets should even remotely take into consideration the interests of the people making bets.

BTW, Mercedes focusing on next year is as problematic for those that bet on them being 4th or better in the constructors, for example, but it seems that if there's no Alonso nor Ferrari in it then it doesn't matter.

I think I understood you well. As I have said I don't gamble nor do I have any take one way or the other on the matter at hand, I just try and see things from all angles. There were and are people that declared gambling legal. That was not always the case for reasons discussed in this thread. So if you look at what people gamble most on - yes it's SPORT - you will soon see that there is an INTEREST from all sides to let this happen. F1 doesn't get any direct money from this (even if we cant know for sure) but it get a lot of other things - INTEREST from people that would not spend that amount of their time on that specific sport. And that brings me to my second point and that is the definition of SPORT. F1 had it's image gravelly damaged from all the scandals and to the ordinary folk that meant something. So you need all the support you can get and just imagine that a few betting houses would declare F1 not a sport (simply to avoid having it's name dragged down with F1 or lose too much money from a move that is technically not allowed or just to avoid all the grumping from their customers over the mater).

And then there is race fixing v team orders... When, how and why if ever would one become the other is a thing for the lawyers to decide not me... If a big enough player would have gained or lost something with a move being a team order, than that could be a case for the judge to decide. And we all know that WMSC can decide one thing and a judge some where else will decide the opposite... just a lot of fuss bout nothing really but we are now dealing with lawyers and judges and there the rules are clear, they will look at the matter from a different non sport view imho.


So to say that all who bet have them self to blame when some team uses TO and in effect changes the outcome of the race is silly.
Oh and please m8 just because some don't agree with you it doesn't mean it is that way because we hate Alonso (i support all Ferrari drivers). From my point of view this has nothing to do with Germany, this is a general problem that got exposed with that move. No offence m8's

P.S.:
I'm sorry if all this sounds retarded, it is just my take on things - no offence taken :)

[Rob]

Some of us may not have liked it but in the scheme of things we did nothing wrong. All teams have team orders but maybe a little less obvious!!!!!!!
We should get away with it maybe smacked wrists!!!!!:-)

think we may end up with a suspended sentence :-?? thats what im hoping for anyway.

Mclaren n RBR will have to play some team orders soon aswell. If Horner thinks they can win WDC by letting both drivers race and take points (and each other out) from each other, then he VERY niave.

[Stormsearcher]

think we may end up with a suspended sentence :-?? thats what im hoping for anyway.

Mclaren n RBR will have to play some team orders soon aswell. If Horner thinks they can win WDC by letting both drivers race and take points (and each other out) from each other, then he VERY niave.

For that very reason he is going to lose both championships to either the Macs or us. For Mark will never get the support he should be getting, now that he is cleanly trouncing vettel...
Me thinks redbulls have put all their eggs in the wrong basket. :lol

[racingbradley]

Me thinks redbulls have put all their eggs in the wrong basket. :lol
Uness they get real soon-----maybe we could still snatch it from under their noses as Macca try to convince the British public that they are letting both drivers race. :clap

[epiclyaddicted]

I think I understood you well. As I have said I don't gamble nor do I have any take one way or the other on the matter at hand, I just try and see things from all angles. There were and are people that declared gambling legal. That was not always the case for reasons discussed in this thread. So if you look at what people gamble most on - yes it's SPORT - you will soon see that there is an INTEREST from all sides to let this happen. F1 doesn't get any direct money from this (even if we cant know for sure) but it get a lot of other things - INTEREST from people that would not spend that amount of their time on that specific sport. And that brings me to my second point and that is the definition of SPORT. F1 had it's image gravelly damaged from all the scandals and to the ordinary folk that meant something. So you need all the support you can get and just imagine that a few betting houses would declare F1 not a sport (simply to avoid having it's name dragged down with F1 or lose too much money from a move that is technically not allowed or just to avoid all the grumping from their customers over the mater).

And then there is race fixing v team orders... When, how and why if ever would one become the other is a thing for the lawyers to decide not me... If a big enough player would have gained or lost something with a move being a team order, than that could be a case for the judge to decide. And we all know that WMSC can decide one thing and a judge some where else will decide the opposite... just a lot of fuss bout nothing really but we are now dealing with lawyers and judges and there the rules are clear, they will look at the matter from a different non sport view imho.


So to say that all who bet have them self to blame when some team uses TO and in effect changes the outcome of the race is silly.
Oh and please m8 just because some don't agree with you it doesn't mean it is that way because we hate Alonso (i support all Ferrari drivers). From my point of view this has nothing to do with Germany, this is a general problem that got exposed with that move. No offence m8's

P.S.:
I'm sorry if all this sounds retarded, it is just my take on things - no offence taken :)

Ok, my last say on this whole betting rubbish (because I'm sick and tired of it):

Agron said it very well. And Salvador Dali, you say you understood the point, but I'm not sure you did! No one here is even remotely questioning the legality of gambling. Like I said, if someone willingly wants to throw their hard earned money down the drain, others (betting companies) would more than welcome it. That's a completely different topic.

What I and others in this thread have been saying is that F1 shouldn't give two hoots about how team orders (or anything else in F1 for that matter) affect betting. And you are still to give any plausible answer to counter that argument. You say betting brings interest from people who spend their time on the sport... I'm sorry, but F1 would absolutely die without those Royal Highnesses spending their precious time on this peasantly sport, wouldn't it?! And you make it sound like if a few betting houses declares that F1 is not a sport anymore, it would mean armageddon... again, I don't think the FIA or FOM or any other stakeholders in F1 could care any less what some betting houses say or not!

And then you mention scandals and ordinary folk.... ordinary folk won't really spend £300-£400 to watch a bunch of guys race each other for a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon. I would imagine at least 99% of the fans who turn up at a race track to watch an F1 race are genuine passionate fans, who only go their for the love of the sport, to cheer their favourite team or driver. They wouldn't go and watch a race JUST because they bet on their favourite driver or something. My point being, F1 is a huge business for the betting industry, yes. But the betting industry is NOTHING for F1, absolutely nowt! So if you are genuinely just an F1 fan who never places any F1 related bets, why not let the betting industry worry about themselves? F1 couldn't care any less about them whatsoever.

Now let us come to the race fixing vs team orders, shall we? When Briatore/Symonds ordered Piquet Jr. to crash at will in Singapore to give Alonso a chance to win from 12th place, they created an incident that changed the whole outcome of the race. Without that incident, Alonso probably would not have finished any where near the podium, let alone win that race. So THAT incident was a case of race fixing. When a team orders it's drivers to swap positions in a race without affecting the running order of any other driver on the grid, that incident is anything but race fixing, that's team order. See the difference between the two incidents? Once again, team orders have always been an integral part of F1, and in fact all other forms of motorsport, for as long as motorsport has existed. However, race fixing, much like match fixing in football/cricket/rugby, is obviously illegal and always has been. So we don't need lawyers to explain us the difference between the two! We need something much simpler.... it's called common sense.

[Stormsearcher]

Uness they get real soon-----maybe we could still snatch it from under their noses as Macca try to convince the British public that they are letting both drivers race. :clap
If we play it real tight and lady luck smiles on us a lil bit.. i think its possible.
Dont be fooled by Macca "letting both drivers race" statements. If button so much as gets a sniff of the lead they gonna cut him down in favour of lewis.
So its all to play for. :-)

[racingbradley]

.
Dont be fooled by Macca "letting both drivers race" statements. If button so much as gets a sniff of the lead they gonna cut him down in favour of lewis.
So its all to play for. :-)
I was being a trifle cynical on the Macca front----they are already operating team orders under cover!!!;-);-)

[NJB13]

"Team Orders" (TO) are against the rules - stupid but that's the way it is.
A "Driver's Decision" (DD) to let his team mate pass for what he considers is for the benefit of the team is not against the rules.
There is not one skerrick of hard evidence to prove TO, there is only innuendo.
Felipe's responses will determine whether this was TO or a DD. Based on this, if it was TO then they will treat us harshly and we will have to cop it sweet. If Felipe says it was his decision DD, then nothing further should happen. If Felipe says it was DD and they decide to add to the penalty handed out, then we should drag them through the courts.

[mad_ani]

Felipe has already said it was a driver decision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jreVi_Hb6W0

and I guess he is gonna maintain this out.I bet they Alonso and Massa would be prepared by lawyers to face any question put forth by the WMSC later this week

[Raz]

it's this Wednesday right?

[NJB13]

it's this Wednesday right?

Yep, and decision may come Wednesday or might be delayed til Thursday

[Hermann]

"Team Orders" (TO) are against the rules - stupid but that's the way it is.
A "Driver's Decision" (DD) to let his team mate pass for what he considers is for the benefit of the team is not against the rules.
There is not one skerrick of hard evidence to prove TO, there is only innuendo.
Felipe's responses will determine whether this was TO or a DD. Based on this, if it was TO then they will treat us harshly and we will have to cop it sweet. If Felipe says it was his decision DD, then nothing further should happen. If Felipe says it was DD and they decide to add to the penalty handed out, then we should drag them through the courts.

I smell a 'Piquet'- situation lurking in the background. Massa should just say the truth. Or do we want a driver being able to blackmail the team by lying for them? No thanks.

[Rob]

I smell a 'Piquet'- situation lurking in the background. Massa should just say the truth. Or do we want a driver being able to blackmail the team by lying for them? No thanks.

:lol sorry that so funny. You think Felipe would ever blackmail Ferrari? He wouldnt ever ever do that, he is part of Ferrari family and BIG BIG TEAM player. He understands all the going on and would do anything for the team, despite how he feels.

[Hermann]

:lol sorry that so funny. You think Felipe would ever blackmail Ferrari? He wouldnt ever ever do that, he is part of Ferrari family and BIG BIG TEAM player. He understands all the going on and would do anything for the team, despite how he feels.

Would you put your hand into the fire for that? I wouldn't- not for anyone, that is.

[Anni]

I smell a 'Piquet'- situation lurking in the background. Massa should just say the truth. Or do we want a driver being able to blackmail the team by lying for them? No thanks.

Piquet is a spoiled child. In my opinion Massa would be bigger than seeking revenge from a team in which he was integrated for so long. That´s just my opinion.
Though I agree, Massa should tell the truth. Not only him, everyone should do that. It might repair some of the damage the Ferrari image has taken over this whole team-order thing. People would have more respect for us if we stand to what we have done, instead of denying the obvious.
About the possible penalty it might make not much diffrence if we deny it or tell the truth.

[Suzie]

:lol sorry that so funny. You think Felipe would ever blackmail Ferrari? He wouldnt ever ever do that, he is part of Ferrari family and BIG BIG TEAM player. He understands all the going on and would do anything for the team, despite how he feels.

Agreed.

I'd rather Felipe just maintained it was a driver decision, and I expect that's exactly what he will do. I wanted him to win that race so badly and I still don't like that it happened, BUT for Ferrari's sake, I'm really hoping that they get away with it because I'd hate to see them incur penalties for something that all teams do.

[aroutis]

I smell a 'Piquet'- situation lurking in the background. Massa should just say the truth. Or do we want a driver being able to blackmail the team by lying for them? No thanks.

Truth is that there were no team orders. Do you know anything else that can be proven ?

[Effone]

another fine is pointless..

Either a: do nothing or b: take points away.

a fine is useless.. my money is on A

[Katu]

Piquet is a spoiled child. In my opinion Massa would be bigger than seeking revenge from a team in which he was integrated for so long. That´s just my opinion.

i don't think so, knowing and lying about something like that is way too tempting not to use in next contract negotiations are you a spoiled child or not. but who am i to tell, i don't know massa in person.

[GregoryJenkins]

When a team orders it's drivers to swap positions in a race without affecting the running order of any other driver on the grid, that incident is anything but race fixing, that's team order. See the difference between the two incidents? Once again, team orders have always been an integral part of F1, and in fact all other forms of motorsport, for as long as motorsport has existed. However, race fixing, much like match fixing in football/cricket/rugby, is obviously illegal and always has been. So we don't need lawyers to explain us the difference between the two! We need something much simpler.... it's called common sense.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Saying that this is ok is like saying Chelsea should stand aside and let Manchester United win and Chelsea take 2nd. It's perfectly fine as the rest of the order are unaffected....brilliant. Imagine if Roman Abramovich bought Manchester United and decided forever more that Chelsea would beat Manchester United in every game they ever played. Well, he owned both clubs, no one else would be affected (other than all the Manchester united fans and manchester united) therefore it should be fine yes? So you'd have no problem with this scenario then?

Of course it's race fixing! Ferrari decided who should win the race! You seem to think we should just be blind to the colour of the helmet, see two red cars in the lead before, see two red cars afterwards and assume there is no difference? Well I'm afraid there is, the small matter of the drivers championship dictates a massive difference!

It is a team sport and an individual sport at the same time. It is unique in that really. Race fixing is illegal. But also in F1 team orders are also not legal...so why do have this big debate? Either way it's seen as wrong!!

Saying that though, I hope this case merely highlights what should be done in the future...rather than handing out any punishments. Ferrari did their team orders in a stupid way but they did nothing worse than other teams have done.

[NJB13]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Saying that this is ok is like saying Chelsea should stand aside and let Manchester United win and Chelsea take 2nd. It's perfectly fine as the rest of the order are unaffected....brilliant. Imagine if Roman Abramovich bought Manchester United and decided forever more that Chelsea would beat Manchester United in every game they ever played. Well, he owned both clubs, no one else would be affected (other than all the Manchester united fans and manchester united) therefore it should be fine yes? So you'd have no problem with this scenario then?

Of course it's race fixing! Ferrari decided who should win the race! You seem to think we should just be blind to the colour of the helmet, see two red cars in the lead before, see two red cars afterwards and assume there is no difference? Well I'm afraid there is, the small matter of the drivers championship dictates a massive difference!

It is a team sport and an individual sport at the same time. It is unique in that really. Race fixing is illegal. But also in F1 team orders are also not legal...so why do have this big debate? Either way it's seen as wrong!!

Saying that though, I hope this case merely highlights what should be done in the future...rather than handing out any punishments. Ferrari did their team orders in a stupid way but they did nothing worse than other teams have done.

GJ, this is an inaccurate and silly comparison. Ferrari is one team, not two. So your whole MU Chelsea scenario is just wrong.
F1 is like every other sport, the team goes to each race with a plan to win. Like all other team sports teammates help each other to achieve the goal of the team winning. Like all other team sports there are individual awards. In soccer there is the Golden Boot, in Australia Football there is the Brownlow Medal and in basketball there is the MVP. But, in all those sports, the pursuit of individual awards comes after the objective of the team winning.
Teammates conspire to have their team win. Teammates play to have the team win. Why anyone would try and distort the team winning objective in F1 amazes me.
In fact, if you want to put a correct perspective, it is more akin to match fixing if a team member sabotages the team's chances of winning by not doing the team thing.

[epiclyaddicted]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Saying that this is ok is like saying Chelsea should stand aside and let Manchester United win and Chelsea take 2nd. It's perfectly fine as the rest of the order are unaffected....brilliant. Imagine if Roman Abramovich bought Manchester United and decided forever more that Chelsea would beat Manchester United in every game they ever played. Well, he owned both clubs, no one else would be affected (other than all the Manchester united fans and manchester united) therefore it should be fine yes? So you'd have no problem with this scenario then?

Of course it's race fixing! Ferrari decided who should win the race! You seem to think we should just be blind to the colour of the helmet, see two red cars in the lead before, see two red cars afterwards and assume there is no difference? Well I'm afraid there is, the small matter of the drivers championship dictates a massive difference!

It is a team sport and an individual sport at the same time. It is unique in that really. Race fixing is illegal. But also in F1 team orders are also not legal...so why do have this big debate? Either way it's seen as wrong!!

Saying that though, I hope this case merely highlights what should be done in the future...rather than handing out any punishments. Ferrari did their team orders in a stupid way but they did nothing worse than other teams have done.

Now that is just complete drivel! For starters, Ferrari is one team. Chelsea and Manchester United are two completely separate teams. Also, Abramovich could not just turn up and takeover Man Utd as much as he wanted to, because Premier League rules would not allow him to own two clubs at the same time. So that makes your entire argument null and void.

Every major sport has team rewards and individual rewards. Sticking with your football analogy, if Manchester United wants to win the league, it will need all of its players to perform well. But within the team, it's two main strikers (let's say Rooney and Berbatov) would be competing with each other to be the highest goal-scorer. So every time Rooney scores a goal from Berbatov's pass, you will call that match fixing? Well, you might, but others will call it team play.

So I maintain my position that team orders and race fixing are two completely different things, because you or anyone else is yet to come up with a strong argument to prove otherwise. Yes race fixing is, and always has been, illegal. No doubt about that. But although team orders have been technically illegal since 2002, they have always been an integral part of the sport.

[Suzie]

i don't think so, knowing and lying about something like that is way too tempting not to use in next contract negotiations are you a spoiled child or not. but who am i to tell, i don't know massa in person.

What benefit would that be to either Felipe or Ferrari? I'm not sure what I think would be more unlikely - Felipe blackmailing the team, or the team accepting it and giving him a new contract because he did so.

I thought we had higher opinions of our drivers than that.

[GregoryJenkins]

Abramovich could not just turn up and takeover Man Utd as much as he wanted to, because Premier League rules would not allow him to own two clubs at the same time. So that makes your entire argument null and void.


I know! It's a perfect example because guess what, team orders are against the rules too!...fancy that.


Every major sport has team rewards and individual rewards. Sticking with your football analogy, if Manchester United wants to win the league, it will need all of its players to perform well. But within the team, it's two main strikers (let's say Rooney and Berbatov) would be competing with each other to be the highest goal-scorer. So every time Rooney scores a goal from Berbatov's pass, you will call that match fixing? Well, you might, but others will call it team play.


The fatal flaw in this is that you give far too little importance to the drivers championship. Ultimately, no one really truly cares about the golden boot other than the player himself. With the drivers world championship it's fair to say it's as important (and in many people's eyes more important than) the Constructors championship. I don't think you'd find anyone who thinks the golden boot was anywhere near as important as say, the world cup. But you'll find plenty who put more importance on the drivers championship than the constructors. If the golden boot really was viewed as more important than the world cup I'm absolutely certain we'd have strikers tackling each other for the ball - the system just wouldn't work.



So I maintain my position that team orders and race fixing are two completely different things, because you or anyone else is yet to come up with a strong argument to prove otherwise. Yes race fixing is, and always has been, illegal. No doubt about that. But although team orders have been technically illegal since 2002, they have always been an integral part of the sport.

The question is, have we got the right to take away a victory from a driver (albeit shared with Ferrari, it's his victory) who has by all means earned it. In the purest form - the car and driver combination which is fastest over the distance of the race should win the race. Massa and Alonso must be treated as separate entities, as in the drivers championship they are treated as separate entities.

If they weren't, and there was only the constructors championship, I would fully agree with team orders. However...this is not the case.

[Katu]

I thought we had higher opinions of our drivers than that.
it's not about how high opinion i have about a driver, it's human nature, to save our own a**. when massa finds himself in situation kimi had last year (possibility of replacing), he'll use it, for sure

[epiclyaddicted]

I know! It's a perfect example because guess what, team orders are against the rules too!...fancy that.



The fatal flaw in this is that you give far too little importance to the drivers championship. Ultimately, no one really truly cares about the golden boot other than the player himself. With the drivers world championship it's fair to say it's as important (and in many people's eyes more important than) the Constructors championship. I don't think you'd find anyone who thinks the golden boot was anywhere near as important as say, the world cup. But you'll find plenty who put more importance on the drivers championship than the constructors. If the golden boot really was viewed as more important than the world cup I'm absolutely certain we'd have strikers tackling each other for the ball - the system just wouldn't work.



The question is, have we got the right to take away a victory from a driver (albeit shared with Ferrari, it's his victory) who has by all means earned it. In the purest form - the car and driver combination which is fastest over the distance of the race should win the race. Massa and Alonso must be treated as separate entities, as in the drivers championship they are treated as separate entities.

If they weren't, and there was only the constructors championship, I would fully agree with team orders. However...this is not the case.

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make there, but the thing is, we don't live in an ideal world. You and me liking or not liking team orders does not make any difference whatsoever. I reiterate what I've said already, team orders always has been and always will be an integral part of F1, whether you like it or not. Either you live with it and continue watching F1 as it is, or you stop following the sport altogether if it bothers you that much.

[Greig]

it's not about how high opinion i have about a driver, it's human nature, to save our own a**. when massa finds himself in situation kimi had last year (possibility of replacing), he'll use it, for sure

Like Alonso used it at McLaren you mean?

Felipe has nothing to blackmail Ferrari with, even if he wanted too which itself is just ludicrous to be even suggested IMO.

[racingbradley]

it's not about how high opinion i have about a driver, it's human nature, to save our own a**. when massa finds himself in situation kimi had last year (possibility of replacing), he'll use it, for sure

From what I have read about Felipe, the man, I doubt if he would stoop that low. I think you will find that Felipe is very honest and would not be involved in lie even to save his own skin. He's not at McLaren! :-)

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

Massa is better than that! Future WDC!!!!!

[Katu]

you either are living in a fantasy world where no-one expect macca lies or i am the only one living in very corrupted world. everyone lies. and trust me, 99,9% of people wouldn't doubt twice having cards like that in hand to use them or not

[Greig]

you either are living in a fantasy world where no-one expect macca lies or i am the only one living in very corrupted world. everyone lies. and trust me, 99,9% of people wouldn't doubt twice having cards like that in hand to use them or not

What cards would Massa have exactly? none at all, so even if he was like Alonso he has nothing to use against Ferrari....maybe a McLaren forum would be more suited to your views on Massa and how you know him so well :-)

[Katu]

What cards would Massa have exactly? none at all, so even if he was like Alonso he has nothing to use against Ferrari....maybe a McLaren forum would be more suited to your views on Massa and how you know him so well :-)

i just said i don't know him in person, my views on how people could blackmail are theoretically as good as people's who say that they heared massa wouldn't do that. i don't say that it is exactly him, i say in general people would do that and they do. i've got nothing against massa, though. if Massa is lying to cover up all this teamorder thingy i think he has the same cards Piquet had, he got his contract and when it all ended badly for him, he got FIA behind his back

[Greig]

i just said i don't know him in person, my views on how people could blackmail are theoretically as good as people's who say that they heared massa wouldn't do that. i don't say that it is exactly him, i say in general people would do that and they do. i've got nothing against massa, though. if Massa is lying to cover up all this teamorder thingy i think he has the same cards Piquet had, he got his contract and when it all ended badly for him, he got FIA behind his back

Well Alonso is also going to be lying, and he has used blackmail in the past, so should we not be more worried about him rather than Massa?

[Ferrari_ fan]

What cards would Massa have exactly? none at all, so even if he was like Alonso he has nothing to use against Ferrari....maybe a McLaren forum would be more suited to your views on Massa and how you know him so well :-)

Massa Rep: Psst guys if Massa gives you a sworn statement stating that Ferrari had a deal using code words to request and issue team orders would you give him immunity?
WMSC: Of course we did the same for Nelson
Massa: yes it did happen when Alonso said it was ridiculous it was a code for Ferrari to tell me to move over, I tried to resist them they told me a couple times to move over before I did making it clear to everyone what was happening.
WMSC: Yes you did.
Later that day
WMSC: it is the finding of this hearing due to evidence submitted that Alonso, Massa and Ferrari are all found guilty of using team orders to alter the result of the race and we hereby Strip the team of all constructors points and Alonso of all drivers points however due to the immunity granted to Massa we Suspend his penalty and promote him to race winner. We also give Ferrari a 12 month ban from the sport suspended for 3 years and issue a $1 million fine for the offence of fixing the race.
Alonso is also issued with a 3 race ban for lying to the Stewards suspended for a year and Ferrari have an additional 3 race ban suspended for a year for the same offence.

I don't think Massa would do so but he could do an Alonso and blackmail the team he has the knowledge to do so and has nothing to lose he has a contract for next year and would be unlikely to get it extended anyway.

In Cricket 3 players are facing life time bans for throwing a no ball and even which has no impact on the result of the game in any way the WMSC can't appear to sanction breach of the rules and so I really do fear for the team.

I do wonder how many of us would be as understanding if it was Mr J Bottom and Mr L Hamburger in the McCra*

I hope we get away with it but I have a bad feeling about it

[Greig]

Alonso has the same cards and a history of using them, so lets worry about that a lot more yeah :-)

Or maybe that is not fashionable in this thread LOL

[Katu]

Alonso has the same cards and a history of using them, so lets worry about that a lot more yeah :-)

Or maybe that is not fashionable in this thread LOL

i think we should worry about it if the case would be opposite.. :-) it isn't though

[Suzie]

WMSC: it is the finding of this hearing due to evidence submitted that Alonso, Massa and Ferrari are all found guilty of using team orders to alter the result of the race and we hereby Strip the team of all constructors points and Alonso of all drivers points however due to the immunity granted to Massa we Suspend his penalty and promote him to race winner. We also give Ferrari a 12 month ban from the sport suspended for 3 years and issue a $1 million fine for the offence of fixing the race.
Alonso is also issued with a 3 race ban for lying to the Stewards suspended for a year and Ferrari have an additional 3 race ban suspended for a year for the same offence.



You're an optimist, right? ;-)

Massa took one for the team in Hockenheim; don't see why the WMSC hearing will be any different. If I'm wrong then you'll find me with my head in the oven.

[Greig]

i think we should worry about it if the case would be opposite.. :-) it isn't though

Because you say so? Massa and Alonso are going to say the same thing, both telling lies in your words, and both holding cards that can blackmail Ferrari, if you are telling us that Massa is in a position to blackmail Ferrari then so is Alonso, and Alonso has used blackmail in the past, so let's worry about him more than Massa who has never shown one single sign of stabbing his team in the back yeah....or you could just make up your fantasy if it suits your agenda....

[Ferrari_ fan]

Alonso has the same cards and a history of using them, so lets worry about that a lot more yeah :-)

Or maybe that is not fashionable in this thread LOL

All I'm saying is that Massa has the cards to use but I don't think he would

Alonso I don't doubt for a second would if he needed to and that is why I thought he should never have come to the team

Mr "Renault have just given me my first world title how should I thank them Oh I know I will sign a contract with McLaren"
Mr "I have always dreamed of racing for McLaren some people think Ferrari is the best team in the world but I think it's McLaren" (I'm looking for a link to that quote)
Mr "I can't beat a rookie so I will blackmail my boss, I used the Ferrari data but I will use it how I see fit"
Mr "I can't hack it I'm running back to Daddy"
Mr "I have got a better deal so I'm off to Ferrari"

People should aspire to drive for the best team in the world not turn to us when other options don't work out.

[Ferrari_ fan]

You're an optimist, right? ;-)

Massa took one for the team in Hockenheim; don't see why the WMSC hearing will be any different. If I'm wrong then you'll find me with my head in the oven.

I wish you were right but I do fear we will lose everything for that race the WMSC don't need undeniable proof the majority of the panel have to believe that Team orders were used and knowing the chances of us wining the constructors is slim at best the only penalty that would hurt would be loss of all points from that race I think it's going to be a dark day for Ferrari

I do think Massa will take one for the team in the meeting but I don't think it will help

[racingbradley]

Hmm speculation will get us nowhere. I guess we will have to wait and see with fingers crossed for a satisfactory outcome for us. :-)

[Andy]

Mr "Renault have just given me my first world title how should I thank them Oh I know I will sign a contract with McLaren"
Mr "I have always dreamed of racing for McLaren some people think Ferrari is the best team in the world but I think it's McLaren" (I'm looking for a link to that quote)
Mr "I can't beat a rookie so I will blackmail my boss, I used the Ferrari data but I will use it how I see fit"
Mr "I can't hack it I'm running back to Daddy"
Mr "I have got a better deal so I'm off to Ferrari".

Nice quotes, I'm pretty confident all them are real, aren't them? Ah, no, they were just (biased) opinions, not quotes. Hence, that isn't a "history of using them", just your, pretty respectable, (hater?) opinion.

Ciao :-)

Edited: Just hopping the best for F/F/F to happen in the WMSC (I'm not really optimistic). :-(

[evo_spook]

Lot of hysterics in here.

My opinion of what will happen is:


A: suspended sentance

B: Loss of constructor points

C: Double the fine.

I think it is a mixture of these 3.

WDC is not going to be effected due to it not being in the best interests of the show.

[NJB13]

Do you people support the same team?

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

Lot of hysterics in here.

My opinion of what will happen is:


A: suspended sentance

B: Loss of constructor points

C: Double the fine.

I think it is a mixture of these 3.

WDC is not going to be effected due to it not being in the best interests of the show.



i'll take D nothing lol

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

Do you people support the same team?

I know what you mean to much bashing here!

[NJB13]

I know! It's a perfect example because guess what, team orders are against the rules too!...fancy that.

It's is an incorrect and silly comparison because it is not against the rule for a driver to make a decision to help/promote his teammate in the teams best interests.


The fatal flaw in this is that you give far too little importance to the drivers championship. Ultimately, no one really truly cares about the golden boot other than the player himself. With the drivers world championship it's fair to say it's as important (and in many people's eyes more important than) the Constructors championship. I don't think you'd find anyone who thinks the golden boot was anywhere near as important as say, the world cup. But you'll find plenty who put more importance on the drivers championship than the constructors. If the golden boot really was viewed as more important than the world cup I'm absolutely certain we'd have strikers tackling each other for the ball - the system just wouldn't work.

The only fatal flaw is that you don't recognize that the prime objective at every race meeting is for the team to win the race. Now you can carry on about other individual stats and awards, but they are always secondary to the goal of the team winning. There are many examples of individual awards that are equally, if not more highly prized than the WDC, eg the FIFA footballer of the year, or in Australian football the Brownlow Medal.
Any action by any driver that jeopardizes his team winning, no matter how much it promotes his individual record would be completely wrong.


The question is, have we got the right to take away a victory from a driver (albeit shared with Ferrari, it's his victory) who has by all means earned it. In the purest form - the car and driver combination which is fastest over the distance of the race should win the race. Massa and Alonso must be treated as separate entities, as in the drivers championship they are treated as separate entities. If they weren't, and there was only the constructors championship, I would fully agree with team orders. However...this is not the case.

No, the question is has a driver ever got the right to jeopardize the teams chance of winning by putting his personal awards ahead of the team? Answer is a simple no - never. And stop trying to deny that Alonso and Massa are teammate. Yes, that is what they are. They are on the same team. Nothing you can say will ever change that inalienable fact. And the other fact that you cannot deny is that any team member, in any sport, can make their own decision (not from the team management) to help/promote his teammate if he (the individual) believes it is in the best interest, at that moment, on that day, to help achieve the prime goal of the team having a win.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

It's is an incorrect and silly comparison because it is not against the rule for a driver to make a decision to help/promote his teammate in the teams best interests.



The only fatal flaw is that you don't recognize that the prime objective at every race meeting is for the team to win the race. Now you can carry on about other individual stats and awards, but they are always secondary to the goal of the team winning. There are many examples of individual awards that are equally, if not more highly prized than the WDC, eg the FIFA footballer of the year, or in Australian football the Brownlow Medal.
Any action by any driver that jeopardizes his team winning, no matter how much it promotes his individual record would be completely wrong.



No, the question is has a driver ever got the right to jeopardize the teams chance of winning by putting his personal awards ahead of the team? Answer is a simple no - never. And stop trying to deny that Alonso and Massa are teammate. Yes, that is what they are. They are on the same team. Nothing you can say will ever change that inalienable fact. And the other fact that you cannot deny is that any team member, in any sport, can make their own decision (not from the team management) to help/promote his teammate if he (the individual) believes it is in the best interest, at that moment, on that day, to help achieve the prime goal of the team having a win.

+1 aggree i mean what's the point in having 2 cars if you can't use them the way you want to use them. Scrap the rule or get rid of 2 cars it's as simple as that!

[red5]

My 2 cents...
1) Good one: points subracted from WCC,and hefty fine.
2) Bad one: points subtracted from WCC and WDC,and hefty fine.

Either way,we can rely on a hefty fine :-??

[Rishu]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season... :-s

[Katu]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season... :-s

this rule breaking isn't that serious. i think they should just come out, tell how it was. okay they're probably gonna lose the germany points, but at least they aren't such hypocrites all other teams are who are saying that things like that never happen in their team.
i also think FIA will change and twist that rule a bit or just scrap it.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season... :-s

i wouldnt mind that number actually because the next year after we would have Number 1 & 2 :thumb

Honestly! The most i think were just going to have another fine! Maybe dock some points from the WCC but nothing more than that!

[Ferrari_ fan]

Nice quotes, I'm pretty confident all them are real, aren't them? Ah, no, they were just (biased) opinions, not quotes. Hence, that isn't a "history of using them", just your, pretty respectable, (hater?) opinion.

Ciao :-)

Edited: Just hopping the best for F/F/F to happen in the WMSC (I'm not really optimistic). :-(

The second one was a direct real quote the other 3 were paraphrases of things he has said

[racingbradley]

When you consider that all teams use team orders at some point in the season we may get off reasonably light. If we are made an example of then there will be a witch hunt everyone looking out for who applied team orders and when?????
RB and Macca will have to apply same as the season progresses me thinks. :-??

[Rishu]

i wouldnt mind that number actually because the next year after we would have Number 1 & 2 :thumb

Honestly! The most i think were just going to have another fine! Maybe dock some points from the WCC but nothing more than that!

That still won't be permanent solution. They need to scrap this nonsense rule.

[Ferrari_ fan]

Lot of hysterics in here.

My opinion of what will happen is:


A: suspended sentance

B: Loss of constructor points

C: Double the fine.

I think it is a mixture of these 3.

WDC is not going to be effected due to it not being in the best interests of the show.

Sadly I don't think think anyone outside of the Ferrari fan base think we are going to win and so slapping up with a penalty won't affect this years show and would allow them to use us as an example to the other teams so that no one will so much as dream of using team orders again


I know what you mean to much bashing here!

Sadly we did wrong and been honest isn't bashing I hope we get away with it but I really can't see how


this rule breaking isn't that serious. i think they should just come out, tell how it was. okay they're probably gonna lose the germany points, but at least they aren't such hypocrites all other teams are who are saying that things like that never happen in their team.
i also think FIA will change and twist that rule a bit or just scrap it.

The rule will stay at least for this season unless not only the FIA but also each and every team agrees to scrap it and lets face it we all know that is never going to happen.

Take a look at the cricket 3 players are facing life time bans for something which had no effect on the game we changed the final result of the game and sadly the team put their interests above those of the sport in the way they conducted themselves, look at the McCra* team least year when Mr L McHamburger lied to the Stewards he had to change his tune very quickly, the team had to apologise and the Chairman had to stand down and they did all that just to get away with losing both drivers and constructors points and they got a suspended fine at the very least we have lied to the Stewards several times and knowing how Alonso has been talking about the FIA this year we are facing some very solid payback on those issues alone and that is before we hit the penalty for changing the result.
I suspect we will go to the hearing and we won't even try to defend ourselves because we know we have been caught out.

I don't think we will get a ban for the whole year but I do think we will lose everything from that race and so lose even the slim chance of winning either title this year, I think it's time to pack up development for this year and get it right for next year and prove to everyone we can still win on the track racing for real and that we don't need to swap our drivers round on the track.

[Ferrari_ fan]

When you consider that all teams use team orders at some point in the season we may get off reasonably light. If we are made an example of then there will be a witch hunt everyone looking out for who applied team orders and when?????
RB and Macca will have to apply same as the season progresses me thinks. :-??

Sadly even if a previous example could be found the FIA won't investigate as it will be to far gone to be worth investigating the problem is this one is very clear cut even if Massa says he did it of his own free will he is part of the team and so the team still fixed the result of the race and he could face an even worse penalty.
I fear we are going to get hit really hard so hard that no team will even dream of using team orders again

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

[Stormsearcher]

If they dock our points, i think we should pack up team A and let Team B... fisi and whoever else drive for the rest of the season.
Team A can then go ahead with building next years car or familiarising with the settings for next year.

[Greig]

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

For a Ferrari fan you have yet to show any support since joining, quite bizarre :-)

[Ferrari_ fan]

For a Ferrari fan you have yet to show any support since joining, quite bizarre :-)

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

[Greig]

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

No we were not in the wrong :-)

[theforce]

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

Maybe a bit too realistic


We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

Not in the wrong and I know others will have a hard time in proving that.

A clear warning about this matter or eradicating it would be my hope.:-)

[Fiondella]

Sadly even if a previous example could be found the FIA won't investigate as it will be to far gone to be worth investigating the problem is this one is very clear cut even if Massa says he did it of his own free will he is part of the team and so the team still fixed the result of the race and he could face an even worse penalty.
I fear we are going to get hit really hard so hard that no team will even dream of using team orders again

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[Fiondella]

They'll do nothing because the law's an ass

[NJB13]

Sadly I don't think think anyone outside of the Ferrari fan base think we are going to win.......
Sadly we did wrong.......
sadly the team put their interests above those of the sport.......
Sadly even if a previous example could be found.......

Sadly we don't have a Troll patrol

[racingbradley]

If they are really as hard on us as some people suspect then they risk LDM pulling the team out of F1 and starting up a new far better formula-------it was on the drawing board last year and I am sure it's still there.:-)
Far too many new rules are spoiling F1 and taking out some of the variables.
When you hear Coulthard and Brundle saying we having done nothing wrong you wonder. After all they like to get “ their teeth into us” as much as they can.;-);-)

[Ferrari_ fan]

Sadly we don't have a Troll patrol

Sadly I am a supporter of the sport as well as a Ferrari fan I want the sport to show integrity

I want to be wrong and just because I disagree with someone I don't call them a troll I would seek to openly discuss and debate the issue and that or so I thought was the whole point of forums for discussions otherwise you may as well have a statement of blind of giving blind allegiance

Are you implying that I am a troll because you lack the ability to argue with my logic? If you are I am sorry for you that your not able to think on your own

I love Ferrari and have followed them for longer than I can remember even through the years where we didn't win anything but just like any team they get things wrong even out of context my quotes are very sadly right

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respect
And such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

[Stormsearcher]

If they are really as hard on us as some people suspect then they risk LDM pulling the team out of F1 and starting up a new far better formula-------it was on the drawing board last year and I am sure it's still there.:-)
Far too many new rules are spoiling F1 and taking out some of the variables.
When you hear Coulthard and Brundle saying we having done nothing wrong you wonder. After all they like to get “ their teeth into us” as much as they can.;-);-)

Yeah i agree. In fact i suspect there is lots more to it than meets the eye. IMO There are some nasty politics being played in the background which we are not privy to.
I hope we just get warned and let off.. better still the stupid team orders thing is removed completely.

[Fiondella]

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respectAnd such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

I see, so you conducted a survey and found that a majority disagreed with the decision? Technically the team didn't break any rule. Maybe you should take off your crap stained glasses too

[Ferrari_ fan]

I see, so you conducted a survey and found that a majority disagreed with the decision? Technically the team didn't break any rule. Maybe you should take off your crap stained glasses too

Oh dear reading things which are not there and yes I have spend a great deal of time looking up discussions on various forums Ferrari, other teams and independent to judge what the point of view was and the majority do feel we cheated.

And even if we go with the official story we still broke the rules Massa as a representative of the team allowed Alonso to pass and so he threw the race still in breach of the rules.
Besides if the view on here is found to be true that team orders rule is invalid and can't be used then each and every one of the top teams will use them Mr L Hamburger for McCra* and I don't know who the Red Bull would pick but in that case we would not stand a chance so I hope the rule is upheld but we get away lightly.

I don't have an issue with you or anyone on this forum so please just because I disagree with you please don't get personal discuss the topic not the poster.

[GregoryJenkins]

Sadly I am a supporter of the sport as well as a Ferrari fan I want the sport to show integrity

I want to be wrong and just because I disagree with someone I don't call them a troll I would seek to openly discuss and debate the issue and that or so I thought was the whole point of forums for discussions otherwise you may as well have a statement of blind of giving blind allegiance

Are you implying that I am a troll because you lack the ability to argue with my logic? If you are I am sorry for you that your not able to think on your own

I love Ferrari and have followed them for longer than I can remember even through the years where we didn't win anything but just like any team they get things wrong even out of context my quotes are very sadly right

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respect
And such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

You're not a troll. You're merely a slightly disillusioned fan, which is different. I'm slightly disillusioned as well - in the fact a lot of people here seem to think we did absolutely nothing wrong...whether or not you disagree with the rules we definitely did not abide by them. As if Massa would just pull aside without any suggestion from Ferrari :roll

The FiA know we did it, they don't need proof (they're not a real court) all they need is for everyone in the court to know (like we do) is what 'Fernando is faster than you' means. If we go in there when Massa is asked whether that was a message to let Nando past and he says 'no'....we are screwed because that is openly lying to the FiA. They'll hate that. Technically we should get off - we should get off on the technicality that they have no actual proof. That's not how this kangeroo court operates though unfortunately. What we need to do is go in there and tell it exactly how it is, which I doubt we're going to do. :-(

Saying that....I hope to god i'm wrong!

[NJB13]

You're not a troll. You're merely a slightly disillusioned fan ..............
....... Saying that....I hope to god i'm wrong!

Yep, you're wrong on that count

[Fiondella]

Oh dear reading things which are not there and yes I have spend a great deal of time looking up discussions on various forums Ferrari, other teams and independent to judge what the point of view was and the majority do feel we cheated.

And even if we go with the official story we still broke the rules Massa as a representative of the team allowed Alonso to pass and so he threw the race still in breach of the rules.
Besides if the view on here is found to be true that team orders rule is invalid and can't be used then each and every one of the top teams will use them Mr L Hamburger for McCra* and I don't know who the Red Bull would pick but in that case we would not stand a chance so I hope the rule is upheld but we get away lightly.

I don't have an issue with you or anyone on this forum so please just because I disagree with you please don't get personal discuss the topic not the poster.

So you beleive that the team will get a suspended 12 month ban and you think that trawling various forums should be the basis of a a sweeping statement telling us that the team is in the wrong and yet you want to be treated seriously when you tell us that you are being realistic.

[dpiatto]

F1 is getting boring again.Spa was a dull motor race.
Bernie needs to liven things up by causing more controversy & chaos.
Lets hope Ferrari get off with just a slap on the wrist , Mclaren get summoned to the WMSC for breaking the the rule 3 times since it was introduced & Red Bull should also get summoned because their 2 drivers keep crashing meaning that damn safety has to keep being deployed resulting in it doing more laps this season than the f1 cars themselves.
Come on Bernie keep Ferrari in the fight & give the Anti Ferrari media something to shout about:lol

[Ferrari_ fan]

So you beleive that the team will get a suspended 12 month ban and you think that trawling various forums should be the basis of a a sweeping statement telling us that the team is in the wrong and yet you want to be treated seriously when you tell us that you are being realistic.

No I said that is the direction of the feeling and I fear they will get a suspended 12 Month ban

The team have been already been charged with breaking the team order rule as result of an official investigation and based on that along side what people most people believe Ferrari guilty even some of the hard core Ferrari fans feel that the team used team orders which is why they are using the argument that everyone does it rather than denying that it happened.

If the FIA ignore it then they not only invalidate the whole rule book but they show that they are corrupt and weak which will affect commercial investment in the sport and affect the public image of the sport.
Yes I love the Ferrari team but I don't think Ferrari is bigger than the sport.

So come on then where do you stand are you saying that you do not even slightly suspect that a single member of the Ferrari team issued an order or even hinted at an order for Massa to allow Alonso through?

And if you feel that Team orders should be allowed would you still be saying the same if it was McCra* or Red Bull who used team orders in the same way to gain advantage over Ferrari?

Try been realistic it makes for better discussions.

[Fiondella]

No I said that is the direction of the feeling and I fear they will get a suspended 12 Month ban

The team have been already been charged with breaking the team order rule as result of an official investigation and based on that along side what people most people believe Ferrari guilty even some of the hard core Ferrari fans feel that the team used team orders which is why they are using the argument that everyone does it rather than denying that it happened.

If the FIA ignore it then they not only invalidate the whole rule book but they show that they are corrupt and weak which will affect commercial investment in the sport and affect the public image of the sport.
Yes I love the Ferrari team but I don't think Ferrari is bigger than the sport.

So come on then where do you stand are you saying that you do not even slightly suspect that a single member of the Ferrari team issued an order or even hinted at an order for Massa to allow Alonso through?

And if you feel that Team orders should be allowed would you still be saying the same if it was McCra* or Red Bull who used team orders in the same way to gain advantage over Ferrari?

Try been realistic it makes for better discussions.

:lol Very difficult to really take you seriously sorry. As I said technically we did nothing wrong. Massa was told that he was slower than Alonso. He wasn't told to let Alonso past. The rule is not workable and is at odds with a teams quest for a WDC

[GregoryJenkins]

:lol Very difficult to really take you seriously sorry. As I said technically we did nothing wrong. Massa was told that he was slower than Alonso. He wasn't told to let Alonso past. The rule is not workable and is at odds with a teams quest for a WDC

The thing is though, the FIA do not respect technicalities as a defence. In a real court, (you know where you have to rely on evidence) then we'd get off. In this court however, they know what 'Fernando is faster than you' means. The FiA ignore technicalities and go with what they actually think happened, and in this case....what they think is what happened.

[mad_ani]

problem is...he let Alonso past only after he was told 3 times...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oUcIF-YYxA


amd after that Rob Smedley commented Good lad...so will an engineer praise a driver for losing position???

[Fiondella]

The thing is though, the FIA do not respect technicalities as a defence. In a real court, (you know where you have to rely on evidence) then we'd get off. In this court however, they know what 'Fernando is faster than you' means. The FiA ignore technicalities and go with what they actually think happened, and in this case....what they think is what happened.

And using the same logic they will look at the rule and realise that it can't be policed and probably do nothing, save putting the cat amongst the pigeons!

[Ferrari_ fan]

And using the same logic they will look at the rule and realise that it can't be policed and probably do nothing, save putting the cat amongst the pigeons!
And so seeing as they can't police most of the rules the rules are not valid
They can't watch every member of every team 24 / 7 so they can't police the testing ban, they can't ban teams from stealing data from other teams, they can't police starting further forwards in in your grid box several rules would be invalidated with that theory and the sport would be unworkable.

Your also forgetting that the team have not only already been charged and no matter what was said outside of official lines of communication to the press Ferrari are on record of accepting them due to not appealing.

when you can't say that you don't suspect team orders were used as a person with blind belief knowing that if your wrong you won't have to suffer any kind of recourse how on earth are all of the members of the Ferrari team that get interviewed going to be able to knowing that lying will make any penalty worse? I half expect Ferrari to admit they used team orders before the hearing just to try and lighten the punishment.

[brava]

I half expect Ferrari to admit they used team orders before the hearing just to try and lighten the punishment.

that would be very stupid for Ferrari.

they(FIA) can't prove squat

[Salvador Dali]

that would be very stupid for Ferrari.

they(FIA) can't prove squat

They (FIA) can't prove it did happen, but than again we can't prove it didn't happen... Someone has to give and I don't think it will be FIA. Good luck Ferrari we are with you what ever happens! :pray

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

that would be very stupid for Ferrari.

they(FIA) can't prove squat

+1 Massa said himself he let Alonso go past..

[Fiondella]

And so seeing as they can't police most of the rules the rules are not valid
They can't watch every member of every team 24 / 7 so they can't police the testing ban, they can't ban teams from stealing data from other teams, they can't police starting further forwards in in your grid box several rules would be invalidated with that theory and the sport would be unworkable.

Your also forgetting that the team have not only already been charged and no matter what was said outside of official lines of communication to the press Ferrari are on record of accepting them due to not appealing.

when you can't say that you don't suspect team orders were used as a person with blind belief knowing that if your wrong you won't have to suffer any kind of recourse how on earth are all of the members of the Ferrari team that get interviewed going to be able to knowing that lying will make any penalty worse? I half expect Ferrari to admit they used team orders before the hearing just to try and lighten the punishment.

Lying about what exactly? A breech of the rule would have required an instruction contrevening the rule directly. Massa was never asked to let alonso past. If the instruction given was to let Alonso pass and the Team subsequently denied that they had given such an instruction then they could be accused of having lied. The instruction was that Alonso was faster. It is strictly speaking a statement of fact! It really does sound like youu want the best for your team

[Ferrari_ fan]

Lying about what exactly? A breech of the rule would have required an instruction contrevening the rule directly. Massa was never asked to let alonso past. If the instruction given was to let Alonso pass and the Team subsequently denied that they had given such an instruction then they could be accused of having lied. The instruction was that Alonso was faster. It is strictly speaking a statement of fact! It really does sound like youu want the best for your team

If a code was agreed before the race and that code was issued during the race then the order was given and knowing that the the said code was given 3 time in a short space of time if was clear to be more than a statement of fact
and with statements saying we only did what other teams do in the days after the race (sorry I can't remember the precise wording) really has shown the team up. As I have said earlier my loyalty is to the sport first and then to Ferrari I hope we get away lightly but it was stupid to even try and get away with it my hope is that in the future the rule will either be removed for next season or it will be more strictly enforced which in the long run I think is better for the drivers as they will be more motivated to push knowing that they are freely chasing a WDC free of hindrance and in doing so will score more points for the Team.

I'm still waiting for you to honestly say you don't even suspect that any form of team orders were issued or implied be it coded or otherwise

[Fiondella]

If a code was agreed before the race and that code was issued during the race then the order was given and knowing that the the said code was given 3 time in a short space of time if was clear to be more than a statement of fact
and with statements saying we only did what other teams do in the days after the race (sorry I can't remember the precise wording) really has shown the team up. As I have said earlier my loyalty is to the sport first and then to Ferrari I hope we get away lightly but it was stupid to even try and get away with it my hope is that in the future the rule will either be removed for next season or it will be more strictly enforced which in the long run I think is better for the drivers as they will be more motivated to push knowing that they are freely chasing a WDC free of hindrance and in doing so will score more points for the Team.

I'm still waiting for you to honestly say you don't even suspect that any form of team orders were issued or implied be it coded or otherwise

Yawn. You hope they get away lightly, lightly in your world would be to strip them of all their points and hand them a suspended ban. lol
Team orders is part of the sport if the FIA are serious about removing team orders then they need to think about getting rid of the WDC.

[epiclyaddicted]

Realistically, I'm not expecting us to get anything more than a suspended sentence. At a push, may be constructor points from the German GP deducted. But more likely just a slap on the wrist. Because if the FIA do penalise us too heavily, they risk opening up a huge can of worms that they won't like!

And guys, we've enough people who are just trying to be realistic. I want to hear from someone who is trying to be positive for a change!

Forza Ferrari! :ferrarifl

[Ferrari_ fan]

Yawn. You hope they get away lightly, lightly in your world would be to strip them of all their points and hand them a suspended ban. lol
Team orders is part of the sport if the FIA are serious about removing team orders then they need to think about getting rid of the WDC.

No lightly would be a suspended ban (in short no further action) I fear they will be stripped of their points and I don't think the FIA want rid of team orders.
Oh and I'm glad your able to admit (even if it by lack of denial) that team orders were used

[Rob]

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

sorry, no we were not in the wrong. Said this before, team comes first. Be get slap on wrist maybe suspended sentence.

Then go on to win Monza. They will lift the team orders ban so all casual viewers will understand what is happening next time. The only reason FIA has called for us to go to WSMC after the out cry of the press. Die hard fans and true supporters understand and except team orders as part of the game (sport). Has to happen and will always happen. No getting away from im afraid.

[Lesky]

I am expecting Alonso to say he had no idea what happened whatsoever. I think Ferrari thinks it would be an ideal situation if Alonso were granted immunity and Massa and possible Smedley take all the blame!

So it would be good to somehow distance Alonso from Smedley and Massa, to be sure Alonso goes free even if the council comes down on Ferrari like a ton of bricks!

As Alonso will remain with Ferrari for many years to come, I do not expect Alonso to pull a rabbit to gain immunity. This time Ferrari will have to find a way to free Alonso and paint Massa & Smedley as the black sheeps.

Because I am quite convinced someone will have to get punished for the team order, and Massa and Smedley are impossible to exonerate!

[NJB13]

For sure we will bring up other teams transgression as part of our case. In our case there is not one shred of hard evidence - no proof. Anyone silly enough to believe that the FiA can run like a kangaroo-court and not need proof would be forgetting the hard lesson they were taught by Flavio the budgie-smuggler. An appeal would go to a real court and, if they punished us without real evidence then any court would overturn their decision at the cost of the FiA.
Although there is absolutely no proof or evidence against us, there definitely is hard evidence against McLaren, and it's from Turkey this year.
Lewis to Team "Will Jensen pass me"
Team to Lewis "No"
How can the McLaren team know what Jensen will do unless there was a "team order" in place. That is hard evidence and proof.
Of course this begs the whole question of competency of the Race Director and Stewards. As I have said on numerous occasions their standards and performance are very poor and extremely inconsistent. I hope we take this opportunity to press this fact to the WMSC and get something done about changing and improving the officials and officiating.

[Anni]

I am expecting Alonso to say he had no idea what happened whatsoever. I think Ferrari thinks it would be an ideal situation if Alonso were granted immunity and Massa and possible Smedley take all the blame!

So it would be good to somehow distance Alonso from Smedley and Massa, to be sure Alonso goes free even if the council comes down on Ferrari like a ton of bricks!

As Alonso will remain with Ferrari for many years to come, I do not expect Alonso to pull a rabbit to gain immunity. This time Ferrari will have to find a way to free Alonso and paint Massa & Smedley as the black sheeps.

Because I am quite convinced someone will have to get punished for the team order, and Massa and Smedley are impossible to exonerate!

1. I hate to say it, but if Ferrari would decline so deep, my Ferrari-flag would burn.

2. What you asume is very illogical. If they believe it was Massa´s own desicion nobody will get punished. If they don´t believe it, I don´t see how Ferrari could use Massa as a black sheep. He is hardly able to give himself a team-order.

[Stormsearcher]

I am expecting Alonso to say he had no idea what happened whatsoever. I think Ferrari thinks it would be an ideal situation if Alonso were granted immunity and Massa and possible Smedley take all the blame!

So it would be good to somehow distance Alonso from Smedley and Massa, to be sure Alonso goes free even if the council comes down on Ferrari like a ton of bricks!

As Alonso will remain with Ferrari for many years to come, I do not expect Alonso to pull a rabbit to gain immunity. This time Ferrari will have to find a way to free Alonso and paint Massa & Smedley as the black sheeps.

Because I am quite convinced someone will have to get punished for the team order, and Massa and Smedley are impossible to exonerate!

Interesting view point. This may well happen.. or rather would have happened if alonso didnt get a bagel in the last GP and we were closer to the top.
But It can also happen if Ferrari consider Alonso as real long term (beyond the 3 yr deal)... and are not so convinced about retaining massa.
Me thinks Smedley is gonna get it. Massa and Alonso, should be, and perhaps will be excused of all blame.
We will prbly get a warning and be let off.

[mad_ani]

^^ I'd doubt why Smedley should alone get the blame...the decidsion to swap would have come through SD and the rest of the crew on the pitwall. Smedly was the guy who have to deliver that message.He only made it obvious by all the radio transmission, but I doubt it was his sole idea to let Massa concede.

SD is attending the hearing and being the team principle, all managerial decisions are made by him.

[Stormsearcher]

Naturally something like this cant be a single persons decision. But you dont hand out punishment to the entire crew. You will have fall guys and here i think RS might have dug his own grave. His radio convo basically screwed us over. So if anyone person is to be targetted, i think it will be RS.

[mad_ani]

I dont think he has been called to the WMSC hearing...If anything goes wrong, Ferrari may blame him for putting across the message in such a manner. But again, it was not RS decision to let past Massa.
His words,"Good, lad" after the pass made it obvious something taken place...No driver gets praised after losing a position. I guess that is enough for the WMSC to penalise us...

[Stormsearcher]

I dont think he has been called to the WMSC hearing...If anything goes wrong, Ferrari may blame him for putting across the message in such a manner. But again, it was not RS decision to let past Massa.
His words,"Good, lad" after the pass made it obvious something taken place...No driver gets praised after losing a position. I guess that is enough for the WMSC to penalise us...

My point exactly. If ferrari get screwed at this hearing, RS might be sacrificed as it was his words (may not be his idea) that gave it away. Though i dont think either will happen. At least i hope it doesnt.

[bladeswing]

cant blame RS for feeling bitter about having to ask felipe to back off. he's not a robot, neither is felipe.. its a pride swallowing seige that is so difficult to accept much less do, but they did it for the team... and now we're gonna get creamed because they were too human. however i look at it, ferrari will get further punishment...



and then the other teams will get dragged in.

[Jack]

Although there is absolutely no proof or evidence against us, there definitely is hard evidence against McLaren, and it's from Turkey this year.
Lewis to Team "Will Jensen pass me"
Team to Lewis "No"
How can the McLaren team know what Jensen will do unless there was a "team order" in place. That is hard evidence and proof.


A very clever post.

:thumb

[Salvador Dali]

If a team asked it's drivers to hold positions (save fuel) that was never an issue that is in fact called race strategy. And i also don't see what McLaren has to do with this hearing. Team Orders are / were a problem (penalty) if they change drivers positions to other than was at the moment before the order was given. If the team decides what driver will get what position with TO than that is the same thing as race fixing. So now we know why the MSWC hearing.

But this is only my opinion...

[killer]

Article 39.1 of the 2010 Sporting Regulations: "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"

Now, without resorting to speculation or citing the "spirit of the rule" (which is unknown to the FIA anyway, ask Ross), tie that up to what happened in Germany. Where were the "team orders"?

I'm pessimistic about the results but if I were to be really stubborn about it I'd contend the initial fine was not even warranted. That regulation has more holes than a block of swiss cheese on a battlefield.

[killer]

If a team asked it's drivers to hold positions (save fuel) that was never an issue that is in fact called race strategy.

So is putting the faster driver in front. I mean that's the point, ain't it?

Back to McLaren: think about it--by asking the drivers to hold station, no matter what the reason, the race result was interfered with. See Article 39.1 again. It does not allow for any justification for "interfering" with a race result; saving fuel and being overly obsessive-compulsive included.

[racingbradley]

.
Lewis to Team "Will Jensen pass me"
Team to Lewis "No"
How can the McLaren team know what Jensen will do unless there was a "team order" in place. That is hard evidence and proof.
.

I hope we remember that one----it's solid evidence that TO does exist and is being used------but that is Macca and any transgression by them is overlooked!!!!!
Oh I am nervous wish this was all over the suspense is killing me!!!!!

[aroutis]

So Massa was told 3 times that he was slower than Alonso. That's not against any rule I know. So he let Alonso pass. His call (he was not told to do that). So after he left Alonso pass, he was told "Good boy" (or whatever), there's nothing wrong with that either, apparently whoever told him that apparently liked the fact that he left Alonso pass, same goes with the infamous "magnanimous" comment.

In the end of the day there's nothing that can prove Team orders. In the end of the day all it takes is quoting Ron Denis' comments after Germany 2008, about how the team informs the drivers about their performance relatively to the team mate and then it is up to them to do what they want.

If there was nothing wrong back in 2008, for sure there's nothing wrong now. For sure.

[Ant Raikkonen]

Naturally something like this cant be a single persons decision. But you dont hand out punishment to the entire crew. You will have fall guys and here i think RS might have dug his own grave. His radio convo basically screwed us over. So if anyone person is to be targetted, i think it will be RS.

Yep, i still can't believe i heard him say what he said on the radio at the time :-( Talk about removing all doubt. How could he have been so foolish or lacking in intelligence? :ouch. Totally embarrasing.

[Hermann]

Yep, i still can't believe i heard him say what he said on the radio at the time :-( Talk about removing all doubt. How could he have been so foolish or lacking in intelligence? :ouch. Totally embarrasing.

I for my part don't believe for a second Smedley is 'foolish' or 'lacking intelligence'. In that case, he would not have been a race engineer for a long time.

IMHO he knew exactly what he was doing: letting the world know Massa allowed Fernando to pass him. What he probably did not expect was the stewards to react the way they did, because until that day team-orders had been conveniently overlooked. Even blatant ones.

[Stormsearcher]

I for my part don't believe for a second Smedley is 'foolish' or 'lacking intelligence'. In that case, he would not have been a race engineer for a long time.

IMHO he knew exactly what he was doing: letting the world know Massa allowed Fernando to pass him. What he probably did not expect was the stewards to react the way they did, because until that day team-orders had been conveniently overlooked. Even blatant ones.

Yea, i dont think RS is stupid, so it was done deliberately. Now the question is why? I would like to believe he wanted to show his disapproval to the team rather than to anyone else. Cause no matter how u look at it, trying to show the world is a down right stupid choice.. in fact it shoudnt even be an option.

Not sure what has happened since then inside the team, for LDM wouldnt have taken kindly to such irresponsibility at all. Which is why i fear if there is going to be a scape goat.. it will be RS.

[NJB13]

Yep, i still can't believe i heard him say what he said on the radio at the time :-( Talk about removing all doubt. How could he have been so foolish or lacking in intelligence? :ouch. Totally embarrasing.



I for my part don't believe for a second Smedley is 'foolish' or 'lacking intelligence'. In that case, he would not have been a race engineer for a long time.

IMHO he knew exactly what he was doing: letting the world know Massa allowed Fernando to pass him. What he probably did not expect was the stewards to react the way they did, because until that day team-orders had been conveniently overlooked. Even blatant ones.

I actually think you're both right - how's that for sitting on the fence :-)
Now to justify this paradoxical post.
Antty's right because of "who" would interpret the comments. We should have known that the current Race Director would total misconstrue and abuse Rob's words.
Hermy's right because Rob has proven himself over and over again to be a very capable race engineer.
So, clearly, the real problem here is the RD and officials and the standard and inconsistency of their work. I really hope, at some stage soon, their inconsistency and poor standard or work comes under the microscope.

[Ferrari_ fan]

I actually think you're both right - how's that for sitting on the fence :-)
Now to justify this paradoxical post.
Antty's right because of "who" would interpret the comments. We should have known that the current Race Director would total misconstrue and abuse Rob's words.
Hermy's right because Rob has proven himself over and over again to be a very capable race engineer.
So, clearly, the real problem here is the RD and officials and the standard and inconsistency of their work. I really hope, at some stage soon, their inconsistency and poor standard or work comes under the microscope.

When people refer to when McCra* used team orders all the teams had a button to mark a radio conversation as "Not for Broadcast" and so people didn't hear the orders till the FOM highlights came out, at this stage the public were focused on the Bulls collision and the fall out after that as it was the big issue after the race.

With us that race was the first one where the "Not for Broadcast" system was removed and I suspect that RS simply forgot and delivered his messages to Massa and as the world wide fans listened to it coupled with the was Massa allowed the overtake the fans were in uproar leaving the FIA with no choice but to take action.

That is the difference as far as I see it and with the fans demanding action(and a few of the teams) backing the FIA I fear the FIA will see it as the perfect opportunity to make an example of us and attempt to stamp out team orders, I really hope I'm wrong but that is why I think it has become a big thing

[Stormsearcher]

When people refer to when McCra* used team orders all the teams had a button to mark a radio conversation as "Not for Broadcast" and so people didn't hear the orders till the FOM highlights came out, at this stage the public were focused on the Bulls collision and the fall out after that as it was the big issue after the race.

With us that race was the first one where the "Not for Broadcast" system was removed and I suspect that RS simply forgot and delivered his messages to Massa and as the world wide fans listened to it coupled with the was Massa allowed the overtake the fans were in uproar leaving the FIA with no choice but to take action.

Hmm.. good point. Quite posssible the RS didnt realise he was broadcasting to every monkey with a head set and microphone.

[mad_ani]

Well it makes no difference if it was for broadcast or not...the stewards would have heard it anyways. It would have made it suspicious when Massa has said that he had no problem with the car...

[Ant Raikkonen]

Hmm.. good point. Quite posssible the RS didnt realise he was broadcasting to every monkey with a head set and microphone.

On the weekend from then onwards that team radio was being made more available to us :-E........

[Ant Raikkonen]

Yea, i dont think RS is stupid, so it was done deliberately. Now the question is why? I would like to believe he wanted to show his disapproval to the team rather than to anyone else. Cause no matter how u look at it, trying to show the world is a down right stupid choice.. in fact it shoudnt even be an option.
Not sure what has happened since then inside the team, for LDM wouldnt have taken kindly to such irresponsibility at all. Which is why i fear if there is going to be a scape goat.. it will be RS.

If that really was Rob's train of thought, then that's NOT TEAM play. That's childish and rebellious imo.

In my opinion, when we heard the "OK, Fernando is faster than you. Do you confirm you understand this message" broadcast (was that the 1st or 3rd of three times??:Hmm), his delivery of those words was slow & deliberate. Not a raised voice, not hurried...so what could we interpret from that? It sounded "responsive" rather than "reactive", if you know what i mean.

[GregoryJenkins]

Anyone silly enough to believe that the FiA can run like a kangaroo-court and not need proof would be forgetting the hard lesson they were taught by Flavio the budgie-smuggler. An appeal would go to a real court and, if they punished us without real evidence then any court would overturn their decision at the cost of the FiA.

Erm...doesn't the Flavio case where he was banned despite no evidence show that the FiA will prosecute without evidence rather than the other way round.? Thus showing that it does operate like a kangeroo court?

The FiA still maintain they are correct with the Flavio ruling so I doubt they'll let some actual court bother them. (You may see that I dislike very much the FiA's attitude, but it's true)

[Ferrari_ fan]

Well it makes no difference if it was for broadcast or not...the stewards would have heard it anyways. It would have made it suspicious when Massa has said that he had no problem with the car...

I agree, however the stewards and the FIA are been driven by the public point of view and by the media just perhaps if it wasn't broadcast during the race we just might have got by without much been said?

[F1si]

I hope they won't give any further penalties. I think this whole team order ban is just ridiculous, you can't really control if the teams use or don't use team orders. It's just wrong if they take points away from the drivers.

[NJB13]

Erm...doesn't the Flavio case where he was banned despite no evidence show that the FiA will prosecute without evidence rather than the other way round.? Thus showing that it does operate like a kangeroo court?

The FiA still maintain they are correct with the Flavio ruling so I doubt they'll let some actual court bother them. (You may see that I dislike very much the FiA's attitude, but it's true)

The FiA specifically do not maintain they were correct with Flavio or Pat because they have abandoned all their original decisions. It proved to the FiA that when they don't provide natural justice and don't follow evidential procedure that their decisions will be overturned. The FiA know it because they abandoned all rights to appeal the courts decision.

[Fiondella]

No lightly would be a suspended ban (in short no further action) I fear they will be stripped of their points and I don't think the FIA want rid of team orders.
Oh and I'm glad your able to admit (even if it by lack of denial) that team orders were used

Exactly "in short" you think that this nonsense deserves a similar treatment in penalty to Spygate.
The Ron Dennis school of punishment fitting the crime :lol

[mad_ani]

I agree, however the stewards and the FIA are been driven by the public point of view and by the media just perhaps if it wasn't broadcast during the race we just might have got by without much been said?

well RS made it entertaining with all his quotes, which no doubt drew the stewards and everyone else ' attention..lot of people may disagree, but it was Alonso who repeated the same words "this is ridiculous" which might have first attracted attention from the F1 broadcasting guys. Wonder if Massa would ever have radioed the team to ask Alonso to hold up Vettel to build a big enough gap to win the race....:Hmm

[Ferrari_ fan]

Exactly "in short" you think that this nonsense deserves a similar treatment in penalty to Spygate.
The Ron Dennis school of punishment fitting the crime :lol

Please don't put words into my mouth and if I was of the Ron school of though then I would be saying that the FIA should just swap Massa and Alonso back again. Spygate was $100,000,000 which the team didn't have

I DO however view this along the same lines as Liegate

[Fiondella]

Please don't put words into my mouth and if I was of the Ron school of though then I would be saying that the FIA should just swap Massa and Alonso back again. Spygate was $100,000,000 which the team didn't have

I DO however view this along the same lines as Liegate

Yes and they thouroghly deserved to be banned but weren't because of Bernie's intervention. Paddy used knowledge gained to force the FIA to increase the test weight limit on our moving floor. Yes true colours emerging as I thought.:wave

[Ferrari_ fan]

Yes and they thouroghly deserved to be banned but weren't because of Bernie's intervention. Paddy used knowledge gained to force the FIA to increase the test weight limit on our moving floor. Yes true colours emerging as I thought.:wave

Lets just agree to disagree I have shown respect throughout and yet once again you twist my words. I admire you passion

I will leave you with this if you as a die hard Ferrari fan can't say that team orders were not used even when directly asked how on earth do you hope for the WMSC to say so in the face of what has been happening?

[Rob]

Hmm.. good point. Quite posssible the RS didnt realise he was broadcasting to every monkey with a head set and microphone.

cos he realises. All radio traffic is monitered. Forgetting 1 small detail...3 second gap. If that is true, Alonso was dropping back and closing that gap to 0.5 seconds freely. So that showing he was faster than Felipe. Rob will not get punished for following team instructions. Rob also said to Felipe that the gap is IMPORTANT!!!

[mad_ani]

cos he realises. All radio traffic is monitered. Forgetting 1 small detail...3 second gap. If that is true, Alonso was dropping back and closing that gap to 0.5 seconds freely. So that showing he was faster than Felipe. Rob will not get punished for following team instructions. Rob also said to Felipe that the gap is IMPORTANT!!!

Well, many rules exist within the team, but unfortunately it contravened the FIA mandated rules. the FIA does not care what rules teams have internally.

[Angelus]

Imho Ferrari did morally extremely, extremely wrong because anything isn't really decided. Anything can really happen!
Felipe should be allowed to fight. He is really good in fighting and getting up team spirit. What's the point for him to race if he knows it's impossible to race for anything?
Like it's been shown, driver can fail his own chances by crashing to walls. Without team orders win situation would be now 1-1:-)

[FFFerrari]

They (WMSC) have requested to hear both Massa and Alonso alongside Rob and Domi so it's possible that WDC point docking and/or catching a lie in their hearing is a goal. Not good at all.

[NJB13]

Anyone know what time the hearing is?

[mad_ani]

is usually at 11PM local time in Paris (?) might take the whole afternoon wil possible verdit later or tomorrow

[NJB13]

is usually at 11PM local time in Paris (?) might take the whole afternoon wil possible verdit later or tomorrow

You mean 11AM Paris time??

[mad_ani]

You mean 11AM Paris time??

my bad, 11 AM Paris time...:-)

[mad_ani]

Ferrari confident ahead of the WMSC hearing in Paris

Formula One team, Ferrari will have their fingers crossed ahead of their hearing in Paris today regarding the team orders controversy.
Ferrari were handed a fine of 100,000 dollars at the German Grand Prix, when Felipe Massa was ordered to slow down and give way to Fernando Alonso.
After that the race stewards referred the case to World Motor sport Council (WMSC).
Setfano Domenicali, the team principal at Ferrari said that he is confident that his team will not be charged with any serious punishments at the hearing.
He said that the team is confident that the WMSC will understand the team’s position and make a decision accordingly.
The Italian team has been charged with breach of 2 sections of F1 Rules. The incident in question took place at the Hockenheim circuit where on the radio a senior team Engineer could be heard saying “Felipe, Alonso is much quicker than you... do you understand?” after which Massa slowed down and allowed Fernando Alonso to go past him and the Spaniard ended up winning the race. As soon as Alonso went ahead the team radio was on again and the same engineer said “Good lad... Sorry”. It was on the 49th lap of the 67 lap race.
The article 39.1 of F1 regulations states that any interference from the team that may affect the result of the race is strictly prohibited.
Article 15.1c of F1 rule book, states that any conduct by a team that is fraudulent or can act prejudicial to the interest of a competition can be punished.
The incident was not welcomed at all around the F1 fraternity, and wide criticism followed for Ferrari from all corners.
This is not the first time Ferrari has been involved in such a controversy. Eight years ago in 2002, Rubens Barrichello was given the same advice and he slowed down to make way for Michael Schumacher. It was after that race, that the FIA were forced to revisit the team order rules and new restrictions were put in place.
Domenicali said that the team wanted to only let Massa know the developments of the race and that Ferrari had not given any explicit instructions, and because the team has already seen in the past that, some situations can end up with not the best results.
The fine that was handed down to Ferrari in Germany was the maximum that can be given for such an offense. It is feared that the hearing may well turn out to be a nightmare for the team. Ferrari can possibly be handed a race ban, points deduction or even elimination from the championship.


Domenicali said that people have overhyped the incident and in truth it was never that serious. He said that the World Motor Sport Council will take into account all the details that many have overlooked, and he has no doubts that Ferrari will not be handed any serious punishments.
Domenicali said that in the Australian Grand Prix, the team was faced with almost the same situation, and Massa was similarly informed that Alonso was quicker than him and it was left up to the drivers to make the decision.
The other teams in F1 are divided in opinion about the whole controversy; Ferrari’s main rivals like McLaren and Red Bull believe that the Italian team should be dealt with heavily, while others have taken a more linear approach and say that no harsh punishments are justified.
Whatever the outcome of the hearing is, it will be one of the most pivotal moments in the current F1 season as it heads into the last 6 races of the season.

[NJB13]

The Guardian and Die Welt also side with Ferrari:-
http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100907_The_Guardian_and_Die_Welt_side_with_Ferrari .aspx

Maranello, 7 September – The influential British daily paper, The Guardian, today sided with Ferrari, when senior writer Richard Williams raised the topic of tomorrow’s FIA World Council meeting. Not only did he support the Maranello team, stating it should not be condemned for its actions, he also went further in discussing the rule banning team orders.

According to the Guardian, an eventual punishment for Ferrari following events at the German GP, would go against the very essence of motor sport. The article continued that the rule regarding team orders “is honoured more in the breach than in the observance”. Williams then concluded: “Tomorrow's proceedings could be dominated by Formula One's usual political machinations, or by an outbreak of common sense,” explaining that this would mean getting rid of the ban on team orders.

The German paper, Die Welt has also sprung to Ferrari’s defence. The accusation, according to the sports pages of the daily, is based only on circumstantial evidence, before going on to add that Ferrari had already been severely penalised immediately after the race.

[mad_ani]

Hill: Ferrari likely to get away

Damon Hill believes Ferrari and Fernando Alonso are unlikely to be punished any further by the World Motor Sport Council for using team orders as the rule is "fundamentally flawed".

The Scuderia's hearing will take place in Paris on Wednesday following the Spaniard's controversial German Grand Prix victory at the end of July. The team have already been fined $100,000 by the stewards after they used a coded message to tell Felipe Massa to allow Alonso through for the win.

The WMSC has the option of either dishing out another fine, strip Alonso and/or Ferrari of the points they won in Hockenheim or decide not to impose any further punishment. Should Alonso lose the points then it will all but end his hopes of winning the 2010 World Championship.

Former World Champion Hill, though, feels Ferrari are likely to "get off".

"Teams say they are not implementing team orders but we all suspect that what they are doing is indicating to the driver how they would like them to perform, which can't be construed as an order," he told The Telegraph.

"It is an issue which has been creeping up for some time and has not been addressed and I think Ferrari might get off because the rules aren't clear.

"This is where the sport doesn't do itself any favours. It needs a media circus to make the necessary changes. I mean, this is happening four days before the Italian Grand Prix."

Should the WMSC decide to punish Ferrari, Hill warns them against coming down too hard by stripping the team of their points.

"Flexing their muscles because they can is not necessarily wise," he added. "I don't think a punishment that big would fit this particular crime."

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Damon Hill has also now sided with Ferrari....


Damon Hill believes Ferrari and Fernando Alonso are unlikely to be punished any further by the World Motor Sport Council for using team orders as the rule is "fundamentally flawed".
The Scuderia's hearing will take place in Paris on Wednesday following the Spaniard's controversial German Grand Prix victory at the end of July. The team have already been fined $100,000 by the stewards after they used a coded message to tell Felipe Massa to allow Alonso through for the win.
The WMSC has the option of either dishing out another fine, strip Alonso and/or Ferrari of the points they won in Hockenheim or decide not to impose any further punishment. Should Alonso lose the points then it will all but end his hopes of winning the 2010 World Championship.
Former World Champion Hill, though, feels Ferrari are likely to "get off".
"Teams say they are not implementing team orders but we all suspect that what they are doing is indicating to the driver how they would like them to perform, which can't be construed as an order," he told The Telegraph.
"It is an issue which has been creeping up for some time and has not been addressed and I think Ferrari might get off because the rules aren't clear.
"This is where the sport doesn't do itself any favours. It needs a media circus to make the necessary changes. I mean, this is happening four days before the Italian Grand Prix."
Should the WMSC decide to punish Ferrari, Hill warns them against coming down too hard by stripping the team of their points.
"Flexing their muscles because they can is not necessarily wise," he added. "I don't think a punishment that big would fit this particular crime."

Let's hope he is right :thumb

[Fiondella]

Eddie Jaw drop saying on Five Live that he believes Ferrari should be punished further and that they insulted the public and felt they (Ferrari) should have not have been as blatant. i.e. They should have embilished the incident ala Macca. What a hyprocrit

[voiko]

ahhhh its on now

[racingbradley]

Eddie Jaw drop saying on Five Live that he believes Ferrari should be punished further and that they insulted the public and felt they (Ferrari) should have not have been as blatant. i.e. They should have embilished the incident ala Macca. What a hyprocrit

Eddie exercised the mother of all team orders in Spa in 1998. So what's he talking about???? He changes his mind every time he opens his mouth.:-)
I do hope we just get a smacked wrist to-day.:thumb

[Ant Raikkonen]

:lol @ "Eddie Jaw-drop"

Yeah, what explanation has he offered about the Spa '98 situation with his team/drivers?

Seeing as "team orders" is such a hot-potato subject for Mr Jaw-drop, I wonder what his opinion is about Mclaren/Williams at Jerez '97 and Mclaren at Melbourne '98 (the FIRST bloody race of the season, dammit!!)
:roll

[RED]

Very sensible comment by JA.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/what-will-be-ferraris-fate-today-in-team-orders-hearing/

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Now EJ has jumped on the 'punish Ferrari' bandwagon FFS.....sigh....they all acting like politicians trying to score points off someone else's mistakes. I just hope the outcome is favorable so that we can stick it to them all ;-)

Ferrari treated Formula One fans "like muppets" and ought to be punished further, according to former team boss Eddie Jordan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/ferrari/7988967/Ferrari-have-treated-F1-fans-like-muppets-says-Eddie-Jordan.html

[Stormsearcher]

James allen is usually unbiased. His articles are good to read. :-)

[Fiondella]

James allen is usually unbiased. His articles are good to read. :-)

There was a time he was said to be a little sycophantic viz a vis ferrari schumi combo and lets not forget his son's name is enzo completely unconnected of course.:-?? check out 'Driven to Extremes'
But then along came Lewis 'Kitty Litter' Hamilton and James became broody once more:lol

[Suzie]

[B]Ferrari treated Formula One fans "like muppets" and ought to be punished further, according to former team boss Eddie Jordan.


Absolute nonsense. EJ is the one treating F1 fans like muppets for assuming the people watching at home don't understand the concept of team orders. Does he think people sat at home watching the race that day not understanding what was happening? Surely even a halfwit who is only a casual F1 watcher would have known. Same as the whole BBC team, going on and on and on about team orders and why they happen - as if we all aren't quite aware of what goes on.

[Sempre_Ferrari]

any one know what time Ferrari are going in?

Just out of FIA .......No 13th team and 20 races for 2011.

[NJB13]

FiA Website from the WMSC section today meeting (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Pages/wmsc_080910.aspx)

Again, this is not what we are waiting on but, no doubt this is aimed at Lewser for his numerous driving indiscretions in Australia, France and Switzerland (I believe).

Seems they've moved beyond giving him warnings and now they are making rules that basically says, if he does it again, they could possibly "warn" him :-)


DRIVING CONDUCT

The FIA, both in its motor sport and mobility roles, has a strong interest in promoting road safety. Competitors at FIA events must act as ambassadors for the sport, be aware their conduct on the road must be exemplary and respect road safety rules. A proposal to amend the international sporting code will be submitted to the FIA General Assembly to clarify that any holder of an International Super Licence must also be in possession of a current road driving licence. Additionally, the Code will be amended to clarify that if an International Super Licence holder is involved in a serious road traffic offence recognised by a national police authority, the FIA, depending on the severity of the case, may issue a warning or refer the matter to the International Disciplinary Tribunal, which may temporarily or indefinitely withdraw the competitor’s International Super Licence.

[coolrunnings_99]

My money is on 25 points being deducted from Fernando Alonso s tally, suspended or effecitive immediatelly.

[Tifoso]

Any concrete news?

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Any concrete news?

nothing yet...I think Ferrari went in at 3pm Paris time so still waiting....

[Tifoso]

nothing yet...I think Ferrari went in at 3pm Paris time so still waiting....


Thanks, amico mio :wine

[Fiondella]

My money is on 25 points being deducted from Fernando Alonso s tally, suspended or effecitive immediatelly.

That would be a complete croc decision

[Sempre_Ferrari]

piacere ;-)

[Raz]

Absolute nonsense. EJ is the one treating F1 fans like muppets for assuming the people watching at home don't understand the concept of team orders. Does he think people sat at home watching the race that day not understanding what was happening? Surely even a halfwit who is only a casual F1 watcher would have known. Same as the whole BBC team, going on and on and on about team orders and why they happen - as if we all aren't quite aware of what goes on.

I thought EJ IS the muppet? :lol

[Ant Raikkonen]

That would be a complete croc decision

Agreed

[FerrariPassion]

Honestly, I see a nice fine, but thats is. Sorry, they could have done worse, to me all the teams break the rules in someway or another..they just dont get caught ;)

but wrong is wrong.

[Ferrari Man]

Cant stop me leg from dancing here... Anyone know anything yet???

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Cant stop me leg from dancing here... Anyone know anything yet???

nothing yet dude....waiting with abated breath here as well

[Sempre_Ferrari]

They have probably brought tons of evidence of other teams doing the same thing so I think it will take a while for wmsc to sift through it all

[FerrariPassion]

They have probably brought tons of evidence of other teams doing the same thing so I think it will take a while for wmsc to sift through it all


+1 :thumb

[NJB13]

I thought EJ IS the muppet? :lol

That's a bit harsh - on the muppets I mean.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/Monkey-Eddie-jpg.jpg

[Ant Raikkonen]

5-live's twitter saying that it was soooo early in the season for "team orders" :roll
When is the Australian GP then, October?

[Sianellen]

Any concrete news?

BBC news says they are expecting the verdict before this evening.

[Red is Best]

I think they are going to strip Ferrari of its WCC points for the German GP and maybe hand them a bigger fine.

[Hermann]

Whatever they do with Ferrari, i expect the stewards to keep a very close ear to the Macca radio conversations from now on. And to RB as well.

[eilfff]

No penalty: http://twitter.com/F1Photographer/statuses/23926785549

[Ste]

Ferrari have escaped further punishment by the FIA for the team orders 'non-story' at Hockenheim this year.

[Ste]

President of Italy's CSAI motorsport fed says FIA decided no further sanction for Ferrari. Upheld fine and to review rules.

[NJB13]

This is a bot translation of an Italian post on the Ferrari Community Forum:-
Originally Posted by OmniCorse Ferrari: in Paris is not yet ... over, but The FIA World Council is cracking on the decision to be taken on the hockenheimring The Fia World Council is still ongoing in Place de la Concorde: the question Ferrari which initially seemed geared towards a positive for the team of Cavallino pare back into question.

It seems that the wing of the delegates who had in Max Mosley their man reference are parties to the attack demanding decisive action, whereas so far the orientation was pretty relaxed not too the accelerator…

The fact that the Council is still met testifies that the orientation on the ruling has not yet been reached.

Here is the Italian original:-
Originally Posted by OmniCorse
Ferrari: a Parigi non è ancora... finita, anzi
Il Consiglio Mondiale FIA si sta spaccando sulla decisione da prendere su Hockenheim

Il Consiglio Mondiale Fia è ancora in corso in Place de la Concorde: la questione Ferrari che all'inizio sembrava indirizzata verso un giudizio positivo per la squadra del Cavallino pare tornata in discussione.

Sembra che l'ala dei delegati che avevano in Max Mosley il loro uomo di riferimento siano partiti all'attacco chiedendo un'azione incisiva, mentre finora l'orientamento era piuttosto pacato a non schiacciare troppo l'acceleratore...

Il fatto che il Consiglio sia ancora riunito testimonia che l'orientamento sulla sentenza non sia ancora stato raggiunto.

[Ferrari Man]

Praise the Lord the FIA had sense...:-D Now roll on Monza and a Ferrari 1-2:pray

[RockyRaccoon]

Thank goodness, I was scared they might do something mad like ban them from the Italian GP!

[alonsonum1]

how true is this ? i fear celebeating and then for this not to be true ...

[wappad]

Yoohooo!!!!! And now fighting for another 1-2 at Monza !!

Forza!!!! :-)

[brava]

Great news!!

[alonsonum1]

this official guys???

[Red is Best]

What a relief!

[NJB13]

Its just the fine - I think, no for sure :-)

[Sianellen]

:-) now we can concentrate on the race coming up this weekend.