What's the real problem of Felipe Massa?

[AvantiFer]

I felt there is not an specific thread for discussing this, or if there is, I couldn't find it.

So after seeing his mostly poor performance on qualifying and in races, what do you guys think?

1. Can't heat the tyres enough
2. Hasn't recovered well
3. Not being motivated enough
4. Car not suiting his style?


I think the only one being possible is the 4 option. If he couldn't heat the tyres enough he would already found a way to do it, there's a team behind it to give advise, and throughtout the year he sould have improved. Same goes for option 2, if he hasn't recovered Ferrari wouldn't let him drive, and/or he should have gotten better and better by every race, which didn't happen. I think lack of motivation is not his problem either, as it's been proven in brazil, where he should have been fully motivated and in qualy was just slow (even tho it was a bit of a messy qualy). That's why I think he is suffering a bit of what Michael is suffering too, a car that don't fit to his driving style and that he's not confortable with. But I find it a bit of strange too, as Ferrari should know very well how Massa liked the car and probably didn't build it for Fernando alone as the development of the F10 started very soon and Fernando wasn't there to give advice?

So what are your opinions on this?

[Greig]

Combination of 1 and 4 for me probably the tyres are the main issue as I imagine the car might now be more geared towards Fernando but not at the start.

[AvantiFer]

Combination of 1 and 4 for me probably the tyres are the main issue as I imagine the car might now be more geared towards Fernando but not at the start.
But how come he hasn't found a way to heat them?

And anyway, if the car doesn't suit him but suits Fernando, what is Ferrari going to do? can they make a car to suit two very different styles? (I guess this goes for Mercedes GP too :P)

[Greig]

But how come he hasn't found a way to heat them?

And anyway, if the car doesn't suit him but suits Fernando, what is Ferrari going to do? can they make a car to suit two very different styles? (I guess this goes for Mercedes GP too :P)

I have no idea how he would find a way to heat them, change his entire driving style? might be tricky? :-)

[racingbradley]

It seems to be a grey area getting heat into tyres----Kimi had the same trouble in 08 & 09 yet Felipe was fine.
Felipe is looking forward to the Pirelli tyre. Hopefully his problems can be sorted out soon:-)

"As we will be staying in Abu Dhabi for a week after the race, when we have the Young Driver test and then the Pirelli test, I hope to get some time to spend at the park, which should be an enjoyable experience. Speaking of the Pirelli test, I am looking forward to it as it will be an interesting experience seeing what differences there are between them and Bridgestone, who have given us such good tyre service over so many years. It will be an important couple of days to get a good idea about tyre behaviour ahead of the winter break."

[Suzie]

I don't think his motivation is in question.
It's probably a bit 'easy' just to blame his season on his accident last year. I hope it is just the tyres and I'm praying that the Pirellis suit him better because I am going slightly mental not seeing him win :-)

[Nova]

His driving started suffering w/a combo of the rules, last years, the F60 as a result..and I think the tire compounds used since then..he never looked to get on w/the F60..he's doing a bit better w/this years car,
but even watching in Germany when he was leading, he was having trouble staying in front of FA.....I think that if in Germany, FA was driving for a different team, he wouldve nailed him much sooner
than he was let by....I'll bet clams that Massa will be looking very forward to trying the Pirelli's....it just may transform his driving....I hope so anyway..

[Poltergeistes]

not just not winning, but clearly not performing at the full capacity that we saw him in 2008 and 2009 before the accident, as he says, no driver forgets how to drive, so i'm guessing he is really having trouble with the tyres and car, he's not the only one with tyres problems, in some races he managed to do well, and then after germany, i'm guessing that any updates that ferrari would be making, they were going to give fernando priority, designed with him in mind since they had already decided to back alonso. Even Fernando himself is having alot of trouble putting that car up there, competing agaisn't the redbulls, and what's scarey is that we spent most of 2009 concentrated in this car, while redbull was still fighting for championships, i mean compared to the F60 this is way better, but not quite is it? I really hope our car next season will be one that we can be alot proud of together with both our drivers.

[Nova]

His driving started suffering w/a combo of the rules, last years, the F60 as a result..and I think the tire compounds used since then..he never looked to get on w/the F60..he's doing a bit better w/this years car,
but even watching in Germany when he was leading, he was having trouble staying in front of FA.....I think that if in Germany, FA was driving for a different team, he wouldve nailed him much sooner
than he was let by....I'll bet clams that Massa will be looking very forward to trying the Pirelli's....it just may transform his driving....I hope so anyway..

[Jack]

2. Hasn't recovered well

IMO

[Agron]

5. Alonso is faster than him: Alonso has a more aggressive style, which equals faster. That's ok if the car is optimal because the time difference would be small, but if the car as we see suffers from treating the tyres too lightly (good in race conditions, bad for qualifying and the first few laps with new tyres, for both drivers), it means one -Alonso- can drive almost as good as always, while the driver with the less aggressive driving style can't heat them and thus suffers in qualifying and in the first few laps with new tyres.
So, 1, 4 and 5, 5 making 1 and 4 more of a problem.

[DanielM]

I felt there is not an specific thread for discussing this, or if there is, I couldn't find it.

So after seeing his mostly poor performance on qualifying and in races, what do you guys think?

1. Can't heat the tyres enough
2. Hasn't recovered well
3. Not being motivated enough
4. Car not suiting his style?


I think the only one being possible is the 4 option. If he couldn't heat the tyres enough he would already found a way to do it, there's a team behind it to give advise, and throughtout the year he sould have improved. Same goes for option 2, if he hasn't recovered Ferrari wouldn't let him drive, and/or he should have gotten better and better by every race, which didn't happen. I think lack of motivation is not his problem either, as it's been proven in brazil, where he should have been fully motivated and in qualy was just slow (even tho it was a bit of a messy qualy). That's why I think he is suffering a bit of what Michael is suffering too, a car that don't fit to his driving style and that he's not confortable with. But I find it a bit of strange too, as Ferrari should know very well how Massa liked the car and probably didn't build it for Fernando alone as the development of the F10 started very soon and Fernando wasn't there to give advice?

So what are your opinions on this?

You forgot option 5

Alonso is simply too fast.

Bridgestone have denied massa has heating problems and the idea that Massa's driving style is unique out of 24 drivers on the grid and cannot heat the tyres is quite ridiculous. If the rest of the grid have no problems then Massa shouldnt.

[DanielM]

not just not winning, but clearly not performing at the full capacity that we saw him in 2008 and 2009 before the accident,.

How do you judge that?

[Brakefade]

5. Alonso is just a much better driver, and has managed to rally the team around him. So all updates are developed with him in mind.

[vcs316]

I think its a combination of 1 & 4. The car is not suited to his style of driving hence he cannot get heat into the tyres as easily as Alonso.

I doubt motivation is a factor for Felipe, he is fully focussed & committed to deliver good results...

[Anni]

1. Can't heat the tyres enough
2. Hasn't recovered well
3. Not being motivated enough
4. Car not suiting his style?


Maybe all four points have some truth:

1. That´s probably the main reason. We have heard and seens it so many times, we don´t need to discuss this issue, IMO.

2. It´s true, Ferrari wouldn´t let him drive if he hadn´t recovered fully. But fully recovery doesn´t necessarily mean he has no lasting problems. Just think of Mark Webbers bicycle accident 2008. He was able to drive 2009, but had still to deal with some problems.

3. No doubt, Felipe is absolutly motivated, but maybe he was a little bit distracted over the season. He talkes so much about his son, which is a good thing, but maybe he has distracted him a tiny bit. Of course there are many fathers in F1, but Felipe had more time to spent at home during his wife´s pregnancy and the first weeks of his son´s life. He was out of racing and so he may have focused fully on his son and this has a bit distracted him over the season.

4. The 2010 car development started August 2009, the time when couldn´t spent time giving his imput, because he needed to concentrate on his recovery. He was not very involved in the car development for 2010.

I think it´s a bit of all four points, combined with a huge amount of bad luck!:-s
Let´s hope next year we can have a thread called: "How the hell was Felipe able to improve so much!" ;-)

[MarlboroFA]

Maybe all four points have some truth:

1. That´s probably the main reason. We have heard and seens it so many times, we don´t need to discuss this issue, IMO.

2. It´s true, Ferrari wouldn´t let him drive if he hadn´t recovered fully. But fully recovery doesn´t necessarily mean he has no lasting problems. Just think of Mark Webbers bicycle accident 2008. He was able to drive 2009, but had still to deal with some problems.

3. No doubt, Felipe is absolutly motivated, but maybe he was a little bit distracted over the season. He talkes so much about his son, which is a good thing, but maybe he has distracted him a tiny bit. Of course there are many fathers in F1, but Felipe had more time to spent at home during his wife´s pregnancy and the first weeks of his son´s life. He was out of racing and so he may have focused fully on his son and this has a bit distracted him over the season.

4. The 2010 car development started August 2009, the time when couldn´t spent time giving his imput, because he needed to concentrate on his recovery. He was not very involved in the car development for 2010.


I think it´s a bit of all four points, combined with a huge amount of bad luck!:-s
Let´s hope next year we can have a thread called: "How the hell was Felipe able to improve so much!" ;-)


I think it`s a combination like you say...... But more of 1 and 3 I think......
Felipe can heat the tyres, but he needs to change the way he does it, an maybe taking more risks...
So maybe he doesn`t have the convidence in the tyres to push, and before he had his little angel he might have tought lets go all out if I crash so be it but I at least tried it...

We saw this in Brazil....He didn`t have the confidence to overtake the car in front of him in the early stages....But when Felipe came in for the second time, we saw him making a couple of bold overtaking moves (like the old Felipe)

And we tend to forget but this year was the introduction of the narrow front tyre... So the whole feeling of the car has changed....

I remember an article saying that Alonso has a verry unique driving style, he understeers the car in the corner to get a much higher entry speed, but doesn`t lose the speed he keeps it and them comes faster out of the corner.... This might be a big help getting the tyres to the right temperature aswell.


found a piece of it :


Q:One of the things that emerges from those debriefings is that you have a unique style – an aggressive approach with the car’s steering. Is that deliberate?

Alonso: It is not something I realise I am doing – but it is what the telemetry shows. I think it may be a way of adapting to the car, because when I was at Minardi and when I tested for Jaguar, I didn’t drive like this. The technique allows me to control the understeer easily – I turn in later than many drivers, and do it aggressively. Once I have done that, I can just make small adjustments to the steering from the apex and find the right balance to be quick on the exit. Everybody has their style, and that is mine at the moment. But it is always changing – the car is never the same from one lap to the next, the reactions and conditions evolve all the time. Ultimately, I don’t think the style is the important thing; it is about how well you can adapt to the way the car changes all the way through the race.

[Katu]

5. Alonso is just a much better driver, and has managed to rally the team around him. So all updates are developed with him in mind.

maybe if Massa would spend as much time in Maranello than Alonso is there, the updates would be developed thinking about Massa's preferences too

[BanI]

Masa!
Hi has forgotten that hi is driving for Ferrari. It looks that hi drivers for his own feelings. Stop encourage him because will not help him at all. Hi is payed to be at top and if he is not duing that he is missing the boat.

[elekvault]

I go with option #5: Alonso is just better. I remember Gene saying during a race not far ago that Alonso consistently makes less meters every lap, meaning he is able to find a better/shorter/faster route. Not saying Felipe is bad, but all the tyre heating problem, at this point of the season (and some time before) sounds as a excuse to me. He is supposed to be an awesome F1 driver, he SHOULD be able to find the way to get round those problems, or at least minimize them. #2 and #3 are out of question IMO, he recovered fast and well and he is motivated to demostrate he can be the awesome driver he once was and everyone expects him to be. #4 could be a problem too, maybe the evolutions of the car haven't fitted him, but I'm of the opinion that drivers should adapt to the car they have, and not just wait for the car to adapt to them.

Also add a bit on unluckiness (is that a word?) all over the season. Hoping for a better 2011 for him.

[Kingdom Hearts]

The problem in my eyes is that people think that Felipe's benchmark is 2008, and it's not. He is a good driver that's all in my opinion. But I hope he proves me wrong in 2011

[Anni]

maybe if Massa would spend as much time in Maranello than Alonso is there, the updates would be developed thinking about Massa's preferences too

Alonso lives not so far away from Maranello. Massa lives in Brazil. We can not ask him to abandon his home for us! :roll (Yeah, I know some of you will say ´a driver´s first priority has to be his team´, but in my opinion they should be granted some private life.)

[Greig]

I thought Massa had a place in Monaco?

[Katu]

Alonso lives not so far away from Maranello. Massa lives in Brazil. We can not ask him to abandon his home for us! :roll (Yeah, I know some of you will say ´a driver´s first priority has to be his team´, but in my opinion they should be granted some private life.)

i surely understand that they have their private life too, but this is not the work you do starting from friday to sunday, sometimes do some PR and that's it. not that i want to say anything bad about Massa, it's just that i understand why car could be more suitable to Fernando if he contributes outside the track more with team than Felipe

[Anni]

I thought Massa had a place in Monaco?

Yes, he does, but it is not his home, as he has often pointed out. He spends every time he can afford in Brazil as it seems because of his during the season trips to Brazil.


i surely understand that they have their private life too, but this is not the work you do starting from friday to sunday, sometimes do some PR and that's it.

You did not get my point at all. If Massa was to spend as much time in Maranello as Fernando does, he could not go home so often, he would need to stay in Europa most of the time, since you do not fly across the world for a short trip very often, this has nothing to do with the free time of the drivers, but they should be allowed to decide where they live.
I agree, it is a point why the car is more suiting Fernando, but we cannot blame Felipe for that, imo.

[Katu]

You did not get my point at all. If Massa was to spend as much time in Maranello as Fernando does, he could not go home so often, he would need to stay in Europa most of the time, since you do not fly across the world for a short trip very often, this has nothing to do with the free time of the drivers, but they should be allowed to decide where they live.
I agree, it is a point why the car is more suiting Fernando, but we cannot blame Felipe for that, imo.
oh no i don't blame him for that, it's just my opinion why the car isn't that much suited for his preferences. felipe like everyone else has his right to decide what to do or where to be in his free time. what i meant to say was that it wasn't Fernando who managed the team rally around him, it's rather the situation that Fernando has been nearby when Felipe hasn't. that's it

[Hermann]

Alonso lives not so far away from Maranello. Massa lives in Brazil. We can not ask him to abandon his home for us! :roll (Yeah, I know some of you will say ´a driver´s first priority has to be his team´, but in my opinion they should be granted some private life.)

After the races it was always Fernando who went to the factory to spend some time there to work with the engineers and sitting in the simulator before he went home, not Massa. Massa went right home to see his family, and while this is quite understandable, it reminds me of those words 'a pilot with a son will drive 1 second slower'. For Massa its not exactly one second, but maybe there is some truth in it.

The way things are, Fernando spending a lot of time in Maranello, he has all opportunities to help with the car development and get everything more to his liking. And i doubt this is going to change, in this aspect, he reminds me a lot of Schumacher.

So for me its a mixture of different aspects. Fernando imho is the better driver, if he gets a car that is not really to his liking, he will find a way to drive around the problems (even with making mistakes in the process). And second, with a life threatening accident and becoming a father the same time, Massa's priorities might have shifted a bit.

Could be different next season, who knows? There are drivers who are back right away after a heavy accident, there are those who need some time, and there are those who never fully recover in psychological terms.

[Anni]

oh no i don't blame him for that, it's just my opinion why the car isn't that much suited for his preferences. felipe like everyone else has his right to decide what to do or where to be in his free time. what i meant to say was that it wasn't Fernando who managed the team rally around him, it's rather the situation that Fernando has been nearby when Felipe hasn't. that's it

Okay, I think we agree then! :-)

[aroutis]

Where does one begin ?

Basically I think it's a major lack of motivation, which has to do with the fact he's intimidated by Alonso and also he feels or sees (?) that the team is gradually falling behind Alonso. That alone should be enough to make him feel that -eventually- he'll have to accept a RB role or look for another team, which is something that he does not wish to do.

I don't think it has anything to do with heating tyres or the accident, I believe it 's a psychological thing that Alonso has clearly won (eliminate competition from the inside).

[Hermann]

Where does one begin ?

Basically I think it's a major lack of motivation, which has to do with the fact he's intimidated by Alonso and also he feels or sees (?) that the team is gradually falling behind Alonso. That alone should be enough to make him feel that -eventually- he'll have to accept a RB role or look for another team, which is something that he does not wish to do.

I don't think it has anything to do with heating tyres or the accident, I believe it 's a psychological thing that Alonso has clearly won (eliminate competition from the inside).

You mean, like stepping into a new team, saying 'ok forget about Massa from now on its all about me'?



i'm quite sure Fernando did no such thing. Its all about hard work. He is not spending such a lot of time in Maranello and hours in the simulator for nothing.

It was Massa who started some 'psychological warfare' even before Fernando stepped into the car, while Fernando choose to ignore that and just started his work. People who are using this as an argument tend to forget that he is a workoholic. Very demanding, pestering the engineers and mechanics about the car 24 hours a day. If you think thats how he 'psychologically' wins....

[Anni]

Where does one begin ?

Basically I think it's a major lack of motivation, which has to do with the fact he's intimidated by Alonso and also he feels or sees (?) that the team is gradually falling behind Alonso. That alone should be enough to make him feel that -eventually- he'll have to accept a RB role or look for another team, which is something that he does not wish to do.

I don't think it has anything to do with heating tyres or the accident, I believe it 's a psychological thing that Alonso has clearly won (eliminate competition from the inside).

Fernando is not his first strong teammate, it has never demotivated him to be beaten (see 2007) so far.
If Fernando is so much faster (I mean in case of talent) I do not think Felipe would race anymore. After Hockeheim he said he would not race anymore if he would only race for second. I believe he said the truth. He has a lovely family and 2009 showed him how fast life can be ove. I am sure Felipe s motivation is completly intact, otherwise I think he would retire and life a happy life, seeing his kids growing.

[aroutis]

Fernando is not his first strong teammate, it has never demotivated him to be beaten (see 2007) so far.
If Fernando is so much faster (I mean in case of talent) I do not think Felipe would race anymore. After Hockeheim he said he would not race anymore if he would only race for second. I believe he said the truth. He has a lovely family and 2009 showed him how fast life can be ove. I am sure Felipe s motivation is completly intact, otherwise I think he would retire and life a happy life, seeing his kids growing.
I agree , clearly Fernando is not the first strong team mate he had, perhaps not even the strongest.

HOWEVER :

Michael was at the dawn of his career at the Scuderia, plus he was actually showing him the ropes (that's one big plus for motivation right there for Massa).
Kimi came as the big successor of Michael, with a huge salary, but somehow he clearly did not turn out to be that person, not only that but his whole image did not match to the image of Ferrari (although Ferrari did try to do something about it). There lies another BIG motivation for Massa, who had the opportunity to show that he can match a top graded driver, if not to surpass him, and make the Ferrari suits wonder if they are underpaying him or if they overpaying Kimi.

And then , guess what, they show the door to Kimi but what do they do? They bring Alonso and gradually start building the team around him, and Massa once more is feeling that he has to prove himself once more, not only that but this time he has a problem with underperforming that CLEARLY is not going away.

I believe this whole thing at a point took its toll on Massa.

[Hooligan]

The Alpha male wil always Dominate and lead the pack. :-D

[rob-nyc]

I'll go with option #5.. The Ferrari this year is not that dominant compared to 07/08..

[ferrari4life]

Massa might say he will not be a number 2 driver but he hasnt really proven that he is capable of more. I dont think Ferrari would leave him out in the cold like that. Great drivers adapt to the conditions and greater drivers outshine their team mates when the car is not perfect.
Look at MS in 2005..he was miles ahead of rubens..
Granted Ferrari was not the best car the entire season but Massa spent a lot of time getting himself in trouble to keep up with Alonso.
Towards the end of Kimi's career at Ferrari there were 2 schools of thought here in this camp. One was he was just not applying himself and the other was he had bad luck etc...
At some point the patience for Massa will end...
Look at McLaren..Jenson is nowhere near as good as Lewis but they are ahead of us in the constructors because he is consistent and brings home the points.
Massa seems to have lost the plot..he cant expect next year to be handed to him on a platter after the second half of his season has gone.. he will have to earn that back. Alonso has been an ambassador of goodwill towards the ferrari crew and they will align themselves with him after the way he has take the fight back to the bulls this year. I fear that Massa might never recover this lost ground and will continue his backwards slide.

[Anni]

I agree , clearly Fernando is not the first strong team mate he had, perhaps not even the strongest.

HOWEVER :

Michael was at the dawn of his career at the Scuderia, plus he was actually showing him the ropes (that's one big plus for motivation right there for Massa).
Kimi came as the big successor of Michael, with a huge salary, but somehow he clearly did not turn out to be that person, not only that but his whole image did not match to the image of Ferrari (although Ferrari did try to do something about it). There lies another BIG motivation for Massa, who had the opportunity to show that he can match a top graded driver, if not to surpass him, and make the Ferrari suits wonder if they are underpaying him or if they overpaying Kimi.

And then , guess what, they show the door to Kimi but what do they do? They bring Alonso and gradually start building the team around him, and Massa once more is feeling that he has to prove himself once more, not only that but this time he has a problem with underperforming that CLEARLY is not going away.

I believe this whole thing at a point took its toll on Massa.

I can see your point, you are saying Fernando beat Felipe so clearly in the first races so that Felipe lost his motivation and performed poorly because of that fact. If we look at the race results I don´t think you are right:

.....Felipe: 2 / 3 /7 / 9 / 6 / 4 /7 /15 / 11 / 15 / 2 /4/ 4 / 3 /8 / DNF / 3 /15
Fernando: 1/ 4 / 13 / 4 /2 / 6 / 8 / 3 / 8 /14 / 1 / 2 / DNF / 1 / 1 / 3 / 1 /3

In the first races Felipe wasn´t beaten so clearly as you say. Then his performance went down, but, in my opinion, recoverd a little bit in the second half of the season. If this was all due to a lack of motivation his performance would constantly go down, but it doesn´t.
After Hockenheim Felipe was asked how his determination was now. His answer was: "More than ever!" He said it so passionatly, this couldn´t have been a lie. If he had lost his motivation during the season, because of Fernando outperforming him, his motivation would have reached the low point right after Hockenheim, wouldn´t it? I remember well how impressed I was about this:"More than ever!" I don´t think Felipe has lost his motivation, I believe he is very highly motivated!

[AvantiFer]

In the first races Felipe wasn´t beaten so clearly as you say. Then his performance went down
He had a jump start, a spun that put him in the last position, a crash during qualy, etc.. this does not mean anyone did put in question Fernando's performance, and obviously Massa noticed that too.

Massa starting 4th in Monaco and Alonso starting 24 and finishing just 4 seconds behind Massa is just awesome if you ask me. (not that I think Massa is lacking motivation thought)

[Greig]

Have to take into account the car problem for Alonso in race 3, and Massa did hold him up in race 2 after Alonso was spun :-D , I think its clear Alonso has held the uperhand all season over Felipe, was not so much to begin with but has gradually increased.

I don't think Massa has lost motivation to beat Nando though :-) and he has suffered from the worst luck ever....

[Anni]

He had a jump start, a spun that put him in the last position, a crash during qualy, etc.. this does not mean anyone did put in question Fernando's performance, and obviously Massa noticed that too.

Massa starting 4th in Monaco and Alonso starting 24 and finishing just 4 seconds behind Massa is just awesome if you ask me. (not that I think Massa is lacking motivation thought)

I was talking about the first races, Monaco was the 6th race, for me this is already midseason. Of course Felipe was behind Fernando from the beginning, I don´t deny this, but we were talking here about him beeing CLEARLY behind Alonso. Massa has been behind all his team-mates from time to time, as he was in the beginning of this season. In my opinion this is no reason to say he has lost his motivation due to that. "Aroutis" was suggesting he was beeing beaten by Fernando so severe because he lost motivation because he was beaten in the beginning.

Long speach, short meaning: I don´t think Felipe lost his motivation because of being beaten by Fernando in the first races. For me this isn´t an explanation why he was beaten so severe all the season.

[aroutis]

And then , guess what, they show the door to Kimi but what do they do? They bring Alonso and gradually start building the team around him, and Massa once more is feeling that he has to prove himself once more, not only that but this time he has a problem with underperforming that CLEARLY is not going away.
THAT is what I am saying , not just


I can see your point, you are saying Fernando beat Felipe so clearly in the first races so that Felipe lost his motivation and performed poorly because of that fact. If we look at the race results I don´t think you are right:

Ferrari made a strategic decision, for better or worse. That -in my opinion- took its toll on Felipe. Now, when asked , Felipe will bluntly deny it. I mean come on! What do you expect him to say ? That he's demotivated ? But the results and his driving in the track says it all.

That's what I am thinking bout the situation and tbh , facts are facts.

[Anni]

THAT is what I am saying , not just



Ferrari made a strategic decision, for better or worse. That -in my opinion- took its toll on Felipe. Now, when asked , Felipe will bluntly deny it. I mean come on! What do you expect him to say ? That he's demotivated ? But the results and his driving in the track says it all.

That's what I am thinking bout the situation and tbh , facts are facts.


I don´t say the situation, especially Hockenheim didn´t take it´s toll on Felipe. But I would rather say it may have taken it´s toll on his self-confidence than his motivation. I´m sure he is trying to give his best as much as before, maybe even more than before.

[DanielM]

I can see your point, you are saying Fernando beat Felipe so clearly in the first races so that Felipe lost his motivation and performed poorly because of that fact. If we look at the race results I don´t think you are right:
!

At the second race of the season Alonso outqualified Massa by 7 tenths and despite being last on lap 1, caught him before mid race distance. Massa's form has been constant all year. Alonso is the strongest team mate he has had since Schumacher. I dont know why someone mentioned how Massa fought back in 07 and 08 when his team mate Kimi. His current team mate is not Kimi. He doesnt have off days which allow massa to fight back and gain confidence like Kimi did. Thats the big difference. Alonso is suffocating.

[Anni]

At the second race of the season Alonso outqualified Massa by 7 tenths and despite being last on lap 1, caught him before mid race distance. Massa's form has been constant all year. Alonso is the strongest team mate he has had since Schumacher. I dont know why someone mentioned how Massa fought back in 07 and 08 when his team mate Kimi. His current team mate is not Kimi. He doesnt have off days which allow massa to fight back and gain confidence like Kimi did. Thats the big difference. Alonso is suffocating.

I never denied Alonso beat Massa (okay, I was wrong about the first races), but we were talking about HOW he did it. I do not believe it is due to lack of motivation.
If Alonso is so much better than Massa (in general, not only this season) this would implie all the other drivers on the grid, who were about the same level as Massa over the last years are in no way Alonso´s level. Don´t think that is true.

[racingbradley]

I think what we are forgetting is that Massa was out of the car for half of last season-------that takes its toll. Look at Michael ok it's 3 years for him and there has been a lot of changes but if anyone had said to me in say 2004 that MS would be struggling mid field by the end of the decade I would not have believed them!!!!!!
Massa will take all this bad experience and learn from it---------------------------I expect a very strong Massa next year. O help me God I do not want to have to eat my words. :-)

[Alonso Prophet]

Why does there need to be a problem? As far as I know, no team mate has ever beaten Alonso. Perhaps the expectations some had for Massa were simply too high.

[Greig]

I think what we are forgetting is that Massa was out of the car for half of last season-------that takes its toll.

I really don't think that is a issue, MS came back after half a season out and was not out of touch in 99, and Massa was not really off the pace so much to begin with either :-)

[Alonso Prophet]

In fact, maybe we shouldn't be so critical of Massa. For all we know, he could be driving a very good season, and were it anyone else in his position, that person would be even further behind Alonso.

[Greig]

Why does there need to be a problem? As far as I know, no team mate has ever beaten Alonso. Perhaps the expectations some had for Massa were simply too high.

Trulli was beating him until Flavio sorted it out for Nando :-)

[RedRebel40]

Trulli was beating him until Flavio sorted it out for Nando :-)

also Lewis beat him :-G

[NJB13]

also Lewis beat him :-G

Can't accept the Lewis call.... :-)

[RedRebel40]

but it is still true.

[NJB13]

but it is still true.

Well, not really.

Same wins, same points, and it was Fernando V McLaren+Lewis (as stated by Ron himself) so, pretty amazing that Lewis couldn't get even one point more than Fernando with the full team backing him against Fernando.

[DanielM]

I never denied Alonso beat Massa (okay, I was wrong about the first races), but we were talking about HOW he did it. I do not believe it is due to lack of motivation.
If Alonso is so much better than Massa (in general, not only this season) this would implie all the other drivers on the grid, who were about the same level as Massa over the last years are in no way Alonso´s level. Don´t think that is true.

You can only compare massa to his team mates, the rest of the grid didnt drive the same car.

[AvantiFer]

Now that I had a look at Massa stats, he's always been beat by his team-mates with only two exceptions: Villenueve 2005 and Raikkonen 2008

http://f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/FMassa

[racingbradley]

Trulli was beating him until Flavio sorted it out for Nando :-)

:Hmm Hmm there is a pattern here somewhere. Flavio took a surprise visit to Maranello and Nando has been getting stronger ever since. :-)
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/why-did-flavio-briatore-visit-ferrari/

[Anni]

You can only compare massa to his team mates, the rest of the grid didnt drive the same car.

I know! But if you can´t compare the drivers of different teams, which are about the same level, at all, why do we have a driver´s championship?

[Anni]

Now that I had a look at Massa stats, he's always been beat by his team-mates with only two exceptions: Villenueve 2005 and Raikkonen 2008

http://f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/FMassa

You forgot about 2009. Felipe 22pts, Kimi 10pts. (Okay, you posted the link, but you forgot to mention it :-))
I know, this is not so much important, just want to make sure we have all details ;-)

[AvantiFer]

You forgot about 2009. Felipe 22pts, Kimi 10pts. (Okay, you posted the link, but you forgot to mention it :-))
I know, this is not so much important, just want to make sure we have all details ;-)
I didn't mention it because that season wasn't complete for Massa, so we can't know how he would have performed from hungary onwards.

[racingbradley]

I didn't mention it because that season wasn't complete for Massa, so we can't know how he would have performed from hungary onwards.
He was getting to grips with KERS and was getting stronger with a 3rd place finish in Germany---------and but for a blip with the fuel gauge in Spain he would have finished 3rd or 4thin fact. As far as I remember, he was the one driver who had got to grips with KERS. Kimi had problems as did Robert @ Sauber and Nando @ Renault. So what I am saying is he was beginning to look strong even in F60

[scuderiafan]

He was getting to grips with KERS and was getting stronger with a 3rd place finish in Germany---------and but for a blip with the fuel gauge in Spain he would have finished 3rd or 4thin fact. As far as I remember, he was the one driver who had got to grips with KERS. Kimi had problems as did Robert @ Sauber and Nando @ Renault. So what I am saying is he was beginning to look strong even in F60

That means he should go well on 2011.

[racingbradley]

That means he should go well on 2011.
Hope so :thumb

[Mrs.Domenicali]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88141

Massa adamant 2011 will be better

By Jonathan Noble and Matt Beer
Thursday, November 11th 2010, 14:08 GMT

Felipe Massa is confident that his difficult 2010 season will prove to be just a blip in his career, and says this year's form does not necessarily mean he will be overshadowed by team-mate Fernando Alonso again in 2011.

Alonso has emerged as a clear pacesetter at Ferrari this year, leading the championship into the final round while Massa is 103 points behind in sixth.

But he thinks anyone writing him off on the basis of 2010 is disregarding his achievements earlier in his career.

"I know what I'm able to do and I know I can fight for the championship and for victories, which I did many times," said Massa.

"For sure you always hear from the media because they just look at what's happening now. They never remember the past, they don't see anything about the future, they just look at what's happened race by race. So I don't care about that so much. I care about what I am and what I am able to do.

"I'm sure if I fix the big problem I had this year I will be back in the fight, and that's what I'm looking for."

He denied that Alonso would automatically enjoy priority at Ferrari in 2011 if he took this year's title - pointing out that Kimi Raikkonen had won the 2007 championship but then ended up supporting Massa's title bid in 2008.

"People forget the past - in 2007 Kimi won and in 2008 I fought for the championship," said Massa. "This isn't the first time these things have happened to me."

He denied that Alonso was the strongest team-mate he had ever faced.

"For sure he's a very strong driver, but I've always had strong team-mates - I had Michael [Schumacher], I had Kimi," Massa said.

"So it's not a big difference and I know about being a team-mate of strong drivers. I was always strong as well."

The Brazilian reiterated that he was convinced his lack of pace this year had been purely down to issues with getting the 2010 Bridgestones to the right temperature in qualifying.

"That is a big point in what's happened this year," said Massa.

"It was a big, big change from last year's tyres to this year's tyres and that was the worst thing for me. I'm sure it will be another big change when we try the Pirellis and I hope that can pull it back to the other side.

"For sure the tyres are a very important key to the car, especially when you have tyres which work in a different direction to you expect and what you always have.

"The most important thing this year was to have the right temperature on the first lap in qualifying, and that's something that is a big point in the fight.

"If you cannot do what you are able to in qualifying, you know that you are not going to start first."

[Poltergeistes]

I really hope he can be back being competitive with the pirellis, this season didn't reflect at all his improvments that he has had every year he spent with ferrari. and although he points that the main problem would be during the first try for the Q3, his race pace was bad too, only in bahrein he seemed to have the same pace as alonso, but when he was about to go try something smedley was already saying to save the engine, so i think it's more realistic to say that felipe and rob needs to sort this out, it's likely not just one problem.

Good luck to them, hope they will have a winning 2011, actually i hope felipe wins the abu dhabi gp, and fernando comes second and get the championship, would make everybody happier. but rob and felipe had their worse season together in terms of results and pressure, not that their lives were ever easy at ferrari, but usually it would only last a few races, this went on all season long. they never had a break, nothing went their way.

[racingbradley]

We just have to be optimistic for them and hope a brighter future is ahead.:thumb