Ferrari made strategic error ... BUT ...

[Diego]

I honestly believe Alonso could not win the title. Suppose Ferrari didn't make Alonso pit ... I honestly think Petrov would have let Webber through. RedBull has a Renault engine ! So Renault wanted RedBull to take the title. And what about Rosberg ? Like Vettel, he is a German. Rosberg drives for Norbert Haug. I am sure Haug didn't want Alonso to win the title after their relationship at McLaren. Besides that Haug is a German too and before the race he has said that he would do whatever it takes to make Vettel world champion. So according to me whatever call Ferrari would have made, Alonso would never have won the title. There were several teams teaming together with RedBull. Alguersuari made Webber pass very easily also. Even though Torro Rosso is the second team of RedBull, there was no reason for Alguersuari to let Webber pass like that.

I have seen several other acts of interteam decisions in favour of Vettel. Schumacher was trying to avoid Alonso of making a fastest quali lap. And the race before Abu Dhabi ... Hulkenberg at pole ? Did anyone notice how easily he let Vettel and Webber pass him ? Did yo notice how agressive he defended against Alonso and Hamilton ? Why was that ? RedBull is Austrian, no ? Isn't that the same nationality as Hulkenberg ? Is it all coincidence ? And what about Alguersuari blocking Alonso just after the safety car while he was a backmarker ? Alonso could have fought Webber for second place if it wasn't for that.

I see it all as 1 big conspiracy. Torro Rosso is the second team of RedBull and did everything to make RedBull win. Renault did exactly the same. Kubica's strategy was intended to avoid Hamilton of winning the race. Petrov was there too hinder Alonso. And the 2 Mercedes cars would have helped too if it was necessary as Schumacher showed already during qualifying. Even a nobody like Hulkenberg helped the RedBulls.

If I would be leading Ferrari I would take following actions:

- Kick Massa and his race engineer out of Ferrari for betraying his team. He lost 1.5 seconds in the pitlane in Abu Dhabi with respect to Webber ! He didnt want to help Alonso and because of that Ferrari lost the WDC. Their display in Germany harmed the image of Ferrari which also resulted in a fine of 1.000.000 dollar. This is unforgivable.

- Chris Dyer has to be kicked out. The mistake he made was unforgivable. I cannot believe he didn't do it on purpose. This was just a too dumb call for me to believe he wanted Ferrari to win the title.

- I would start a copartnership with 2 smaller teams like Hispania racing or Force India. In the final races I use those teams to help me just like Torro Rosso has helped RedBull to win the title. Moreover, RedBull's car advantage is a direct result of having the 2 torro rosso's in the grid. Because of limited testing RedBull gets info from 4 cars ... 2 RedBulls and 2 Torro Rosso. This is an unfair advantage over all the other teams. With Ferrari coworking with 2 other teams, they could do the same and have an edge over all the other competitors.

[REDARMYSOJA]

If I would be leading Ferrari


Thankfully you don't.

[GamD]

Did you really think about of this by your self?

Assuming all what you said was thought out before the race, Alonso must of also known losing P3 at start to Button was part of the " BIG " conspircy.

10th Nico Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth (+1 Lap) (4 Pit Stops) I think he let ALOT of driver pass him easily.

There were some incidences where it may have been seen as a collaboration of what ever you called it, but I really seriously doubt it.
Nothing was heard over team radios, or maybe they used some secret devices.
We lost, to many errors were made by us as a whole team, learn from them and move on.

[Poltergeistes]

I have to agree with diego, it seemed that it was on purpose that all other cars were trying to not let alonso overtake them, and this BS has been going on ever since the first race!!!! this is madness!! how come cars at a F1 race insists in stay in front of fernando??? why god?? i ask why oh why!!!

[gvsnraju85]

Seriously mate....what did you have for breakfast or lunch or whatever before you posted this??????

[NJB13]

I honestly believe .... NASA faked the Apollo moon landings?

[Grinsomx]

- Kick Massa and his race engineer out of Ferrari for betraying his team. He lost 1.5 seconds in the pitlane in Abu Dhabi with respect to Webber ! He didnt want to help Alonso and because of that Ferrari lost the WDC. Their display in Germany harmed the image of Ferrari which also resulted in a fine of 1.000.000 dollar. This is unforgivable.

- Chris Dyer has to be kicked out. The mistake he made was unforgivable. I cannot believe he didn't do it on purpose. This was just a too dumb call for me to believe he wanted Ferrari to win the title.

- I would start a copartnership with 2 smaller teams like Hispania racing or Force India. In the final races I use those teams to help me just like Torro Rosso has helped RedBull to win the title. Moreover, RedBull's car advantage is a direct result of having the 2 torro rosso's in the grid. Because of limited testing RedBull gets info from 4 cars ... 2 RedBulls and 2 Torro Rosso. This is an unfair advantage over all the other teams. With Ferrari coworking with 2 other teams, they could do the same and have an edge over all the other competitors.

i can partially see your point, but the things you are saying here.....i mean, really?
kick out Massa, Smedley and Dyer in 1 go ? you really need to take a good look at the last 3 years and then read your own post again.
imo we really dont need reactions like that. there is nothing wrong with our team even if the team NEEDS to adapt to the new and always changing rules these days.
and to get into an alliance with the smaller teams... no thanks, we dont need them.
we need a car like RBR had this year, then the entire grid can play around all they want and we'll still grab both titles.
dont get me wrong, it is possible that some teams "helped" RBR this year, i fully support that thought.
but please dont blame people within Ferrari without reason, Massa had a bad year, Smedley is not even relevant to this years results apart from some obvious radio transmissions in germany (sorry smedley, much respect but thats how i see it).
and to blame chris dyer.....just look at the mans record.

[impactX]

http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/ali2.jpg

[Corey]

If I would be leading Ferrari I would take following actions:

- Kick Massa and his race engineer out of Ferrari for betraying his team. He lost 1.5 seconds in the pitlane in Abu Dhabi with respect to Webber ! He didnt want to help Alonso and because of that Ferrari lost the WDC. Their display in Germany harmed the image of Ferrari which also resulted in a fine of 1.000.000 dollar. This is unforgivable.

- Chris Dyer has to be kicked out. The mistake he made was unforgivable. I cannot believe he didn't do it on purpose. This was just a too dumb call for me to believe he wanted Ferrari to win the title.



If I would be leading TheScuderia.net I would take the following action:

-Kick Diego out of this forum

[dfunk257]

Another disgraceful post. What a waste of time and space.
Incase you havent realised, 2010 is finished, and there is no point at all winging and complaining about what happened. I think we should be more interested in what WILL happen. 2011 is among us, so lets focus on next year and stay positive.

[WRX202]

Interesting points:

Everyone was against Alonso as they would not let him pass during a "race" :thumb
Schumacher wanted to hold Alonso from winning the title by spinning in the first lap and holding all of the drivers that were behind Alonso back :thumb
Ferrari were fined 1 million dollars instead of a 100,000 due to a different exchange rate :thumb
Toro Rosso let Weber pass cause it is owned by Red Bull and it doesn't matter it had Ferrari engines. :thumb
Ferrari should kick out half of the team cause they were fighting for the championship till the very last race and should not do so :thumb
Probably you forgot to mention that Hulkenberg was so good at holding Alonso back that now he found himself without a race seat for 2011 as no team is good enough for him anymore :thumb

[elekvault]

*nonsense*

Whatever, dude.

Now let's go back to the real world.

[theforce]

no comment.

[Hornet]

Toro Rosso let Weber pass cause it is owned by Red Bull and it doesn't matter it had Ferrari engines. :thumb

Actually the Torro Rosso hardly put up a fight. He allow Webber through fairly easy, and held up Massa instead.
Ferrari doesn't give Torro Rosso their engines for free, but Red Bull is their sister company, so, its not in their best interest to screw up Webby's race

[Tifosi]

NASA faked the Apollo moon landings?

The irony is that this is proveable with common sense. As for Diego's theories however.....

[NJB13]

The irony is that this is proveable with common sense. As for Diego's theories however.....

Am I entering the twilight zone? :-)

[sav_pap]

We had to do the job earlier not to try at the last race.

[Fiondella]

The irony is that this is proveable with common sense. As for Diego's theories however.....

So can 911 theories WRT to US Goverment complicity in allowing events to unfold but few actually choose to believe these theories.

[Ferrarichamp]

I think its pretty clear Renault wanted to help RBR.

[WRX202]

Actually the Torro Rosso hardly put up a fight. He allow Webber through fairly easy, and held up Massa instead.
Ferrari doesn't give Torro Rosso their engines for free, but Red Bull is their sister company, so, its not in their best interest to screw up Webby's race

It was Massa behind Webber so nothing would have changed, not much reason to avoid racing Massa for points. Webber was fighting for the championship so I would expect nothing less.
Probably if I had to go with our friend Diego's theories from next year all of a sudden the "Ferrari" equipped Toro Rosso will start to blow engines on the proximity of our Red cars hehe :lol

[Hermann]

I remember people got ridiculed a lot when they suspected Piquet crashed on purpose back in 2008.

Isn't it amazing that Haug's comment before the race went totally unnoticed by the press? I remember Bernie saying that while the teams inside their own team could do what they want, two teams conspiring against a third was, of course, strictly forbidden team order. really? Obviously Haug didn't know that. Or just didn't care.

Even Hamilton (astonishing) said Renault helped RB. He just didn't claim they did it on purpose. But in F1, nothing really surprises me anymore.

[F1_Fan]

If I would be leading TheScuderia.net I would take the following action:

-Kick Diego out of this forum

HEAR HEAR! +1 on that motion. regged in Nov and 2 posts and already talking . nothing good is gonna come out of him.

[Tifosi]

So can 911 theories WRT to US Goverment complicity in allowing events to unfold but few actually choose to believe these theories.

That was MIHOP though, not LIHOP.

People believe what they want to believe and choose not to believe what they don't. Facts simply aren't as important to most people. However, unlike Diego's suppositions, there is palpable proof of the former being true.

[Lesky]

Whats real troublesome here is the people calling for Diego to be banned because of his strange post. I´d rather see those people banned, than Diego to be honest - because it disturbs me more! People should be able to speak their minds without getting viciously attacked.

[Ken]

HEAR HEAR! +1 on that motion. regged in Nov and 2 posts and already talking . nothing good is gonna come out of him.

Hold on there this is a democracy and I will defend to the death his right to post anything he chooses.

As long as it is not on these boards ;-)

[Tony]

Guys I know some of us talk in the heat of the moment, but please try to debate a members comments without ridiculing the poster himself....

[AvantiFer]

Whats real troublesome here is the people calling for Diego to be banned because of his strange post. I´d rather see those people banned, than Diego to be honest - because it disturbs me more! People should be able to speak their minds without getting viciously attacked.
+1000

[watto2]

I find this theory about Alonso quite unbelievable. But, if it were so shouldn't Toro Rosso with Ferrari engines help Alnso? And I cannot see Force India upsetting thier Mercedez engine supplier by getting involved in any nonsense.

[scuderiafan]

I kind of agree with the first 2 paragraphs. more people wanted Alonso to lose than the other way round. But schumacher didn't crash on purpose.

And i think ferrari made the right call, only too early. those hards were pretty fast, just that the guys on them were in traffic, and i don't think Petrov would have made much of a fight against Webber.

But the less said about the other paragraphs, the better

[TIFOSI_FERRARI]

In JUST University, i hate very much any subject that related with The principle of probability, because of any thinking is possible, & you should account the occurrence of anything.
feedback in last 3 year, The Nice guys administration, Scuderia Ferrari was Damn Weak, I Don't Remember they Invent anything, just Surprise of the Rival Performance, and then the team re-act, with Stefano Domicali Scuderia Ferrari became Test Center, who to copy that, and how to be the best of the rest.
I'm so proud of the way that the Nice Guys command the team with Fernando to Fight not Quit, to Believe not Give Up, to Wins not Loss.
the only think we should be Taken about is what had happened in (EUROPE & BRITISH) GP, and how the Fia re-act.

[Suzie]

- Chris Dyer has to be kicked out. The mistake he made was unforgivable. I cannot believe he didn't do it on purpose. This was just a too dumb call for me to believe he wanted Ferrari to win the title.


Yes. He's Australian, therefore he wanted Webber to win the title.

:lou

[Greig]

Yes. He's Australian, therefore he wanted Webber to win the title.

:lou

Agreed, he is no better than Stepney IMO, get him out!!!!!

:-)

[Rob]

Yes. He's Australian, therefore he wanted Webber to win the title.

:lou

:lol

[Curbs]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.
I can´t belive how one could argue that Massa is loyal to Ferrari? A loyal person dosen´t make his team look like the most stupid thing on earth.
He could display his anger inside the garage.

[Diego]

I think the things I stated are pretty obvious and looking with a little bit of common sense to the facts reveal that. The best strategy for Kubica was to let Hamilton pass instead of trying to hold him up. He didn't let Hamilton pass because Renault clearly wanted Vettel to win the race, not Hamilton. And they have motifs for helping RedBull as RedBull has a Renault engine. I don't understand some comments claming Torro Rosso should help Ferrari because they have Ferrari engines. First of all, Torro Rosso is simply Redbull. Of course they are going to chose side of RedBull. Secondly, Torro Rosso is not providing any engines. If there would be Torro Rosso engines and Ferrari would use those engines, then of course Torro Rosso (if they wouldnt be RedBull B) would be tempted to help Ferrari as a WDC of Ferrari would be a victory for the Torro Rosso engines. But in this case it is Ferrari providing engines to Torro Rosso. Torro Rosso gains nothing by a WDC of Ferrari. I don't even understand how anyone can come up with such a ridiculous counter argument.

Massa and his race engineer are loyal to Ferrari ? LOL. Is it the first of april already ? Unbelievable. He did nothing to help Ferrari at the WCC. He drove a crappy year. Then he betrayed Ferrari in Germany and costed Ferrari a bunch of money and reputation. Everyone uses team orders. But everyone hides them. "save fuel", "save tyres", ... But Massa and his engineer could not do that. They made it very clear to the whole world that they used team orders. This is putting your own proud in front of that of the team. This is unforgivable. No way they can stay at Ferrari. I would kick him out and he would end up in a team like Virgin or HRT. Once he drives in a crappy car, he will finally understand how gratefull he should have been to be driving for Ferrari. And he ruined the WDC for Ferrari too. He could easily have returned out of the pits in front of Webber. But he lost 1.5 seconds pitting !!!

Chris Dyer ... I still believe that he made that call on purpose. Of course, I cannot prove that. But he made a huge mistake that lead to losing the WDC. Therefore, he is out. In sports it doesn't count what you achieved in the past. The only thing that counts is what you are achieving today. He failed horrobly and therefore he has to be sacked or given a lower position. A professional team that wants to win cannot reward huge failure. If someone in the government or NASA makes a similar mistake, he is out too so why should it be different ni F1 ? Is this charity ? Last time I checked I thought it was serious business.

This year is one of the most tainted WDC in history of F1. Several teams teamed up against Ferrari. It is time for payback. I hope Ferrari takes the right decisions.

[Tifosi]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.
I can´t belive how one could argue that Massa is loyal to Ferrari? A loyal person dosen´t make his team look like the most stupid thing on earth.
He could display his anger inside the garage.

:lol

how CAN Ferrari be overlooking something so obvious. You'd better email them and tell them.

[Greig]

:munch

[Greig]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.


That's a bit too much, no need to say that about our team members on our forum, please :-)

[Meiga]

Leaving other considerations aside, I think that it is understandable that drivers feel particularly motivated when facing a one-on-one fight with the driver that they consider (according to the recent survey published by a German paper) the best one of their group. I have seen that often in other sports, it is a very natural thing to do.

[Alonsomaniac]

At first I found this all quite amusing, but now Diego starts calling Massa and Smedley "backstabbing rats" the fun is over.
Just to inform you Diego: Scuderia Ferrari is a TEAM. They are a team if they win and they are a team if they loose.
That is one of Ferrari's strenghts. They do NOT "kick people out" if they make a mistake. They work on it as a team to try and avoid making these mistakes again.
So don't you talk about rats. Certainly not about Felipe Massa who is one of the finest characters in the sport.

[Agron]

In retrospective, I think Massa and Smedley's reactions in Germany were caused by the heat of the moment, a normal answer from extremely capable and competitive individuals such as them, placed in difficult circumstances. Quite similar to Alonso's fist in the last race, although in that case it only affected his own image.
All forgiven and forgotten as far as I'm concerned, although I don't lose money when something goes wrong for Ferrari.

[Suzie]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.
I can´t belive how one could argue that Massa is loyal to Ferrari? A loyal person dosen´t make his team look like the most stupid thing on earth.
He could display his anger inside the garage.

I AGREE. SACK THEM BOTH IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Meiga]

In retrospective, I think Massa and Smedley's reactions in Germany were caused by the heat of the moment, a normal answer from extremely capable and competitive individuals such as them, placed in difficult circumstances. Quite similar to Alonso's fist in the last race, although in that case it only affected his own image.
All forgiven and forgotten as far as I'm concerned, although I don't lose money when something goes wrong for Ferrari.
I don't think it was normal; I think it was understandable, which is different. And the same goes for Alonso's fist.

[Poltergeistes]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.
I can´t belive how one could argue that Massa is loyal to Ferrari? A loyal person dosen´t make his team look like the most stupid thing on earth.
He could display his anger inside the garage.

What they did they do? Smedley simply said fernando was faster and felipe let him by.

If you look at it, the only reason people started paying attention to the ferrari action was because fernando started saying that was ridiculous on the radio. the whole "ridiculous" comment from fernando is what started the chain of actions.

I don't see why he backed off and called it ridiculous, he didn't do that in china did he? he simply chose to send felipe off the pitlane, so why not have another reaction like that? that radio trans for fernando is what set alarms, because it implied that he felt he had no need to overtake a car in front of him for the position.

[GamD]

I think the things I stated are pretty obvious and looking with a little bit of common sense to the facts reveal that. The best strategy for Kubica was to let Hamilton pass instead of trying to hold him up. He didn't let Hamilton pass because Renault clearly wanted Vettel to win the race, not Hamilton. And they have motifs for helping RedBull as RedBull has a Renault engine. I don't understand some comments claming Torro Rosso should help Ferrari because they have Ferrari engines. First of all, Torro Rosso is simply Redbull. Of course they are going to chose side of RedBull. Secondly, Torro Rosso is not providing any engines. If there would be Torro Rosso engines and Ferrari would use those engines, then of course Torro Rosso (if they wouldnt be RedBull B) would be tempted to help Ferrari as a WDC of Ferrari would be a victory for the Torro Rosso engines. But in this case it is Ferrari providing engines to Torro Rosso. Torro Rosso gains nothing by a WDC of Ferrari. I don't even understand how anyone can come up with such a ridiculous counter argument.

Massa and his race engineer are loyal to Ferrari ? LOL. Is it the first of april already ? Unbelievable. He did nothing to help Ferrari at the WCC. He drove a crappy year. Then he betrayed Ferrari in Germany and costed Ferrari a bunch of money and reputation. Everyone uses team orders. But everyone hides them. "save fuel", "save tyres", ... But Massa and his engineer could not do that. They made it very clear to the whole world that they used team orders. This is putting your own proud in front of that of the team. This is unforgivable. No way they can stay at Ferrari. I would kick him out and he would end up in a team like Virgin or HRT. Once he drives in a crappy car, he will finally understand how gratefull he should have been to be driving for Ferrari. And he ruined the WDC for Ferrari too. He could easily have returned out of the pits in front of Webber. But he lost 1.5 seconds pitting !!!

Chris Dyer ... I still believe that he made that call on purpose. Of course, I cannot prove that. But he made a huge mistake that lead to losing the WDC. Therefore, he is out. In sports it doesn't count what you achieved in the past. The only thing that counts is what you are achieving today. He failed horrobly and therefore he has to be sacked or given a lower position. A professional team that wants to win cannot reward huge failure. If someone in the government or NASA makes a similar mistake, he is out too so why should it be different ni F1 ? Is this charity ? Last time I checked I thought it was serious business.

This year is one of the most tainted WDC in history of F1. Several teams teamed up against Ferrari. It is time for payback. I hope Ferrari takes the right decisions.

Nice thing about theses driver fans are they do leave after a while. And anybody who spouts heat of the moment 2 weeks later has had a serious delayed brain fart!

[Anni]

Here we see Felipe dancing and celebrating after the last race:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWhJtruQpiM

Let´s kick him out, he is such a shame for our team!

[MarlboroFA]

It`s clear for me now ......I have seen the shinny brite light !!!! Thanx Diego...

All makes sense....I knew we had a rat in our team, but that the rat`s hole went that far is increidible.....

I`m going back to bed now with my alu hat and wait untill the anunakis come again..
They will settle all bad things and make the world a better place...
I`m sure they have some time to take a look at F1 too.....

[hogo]

I agree about Massa and Smedley anyway. They are backstabbing rats and if you are loyal to your team you don´t do what those two did in Germany. Just get rid of them.
I can´t belive how one could argue that Massa is loyal to Ferrari? A loyal person dosen´t make his team look like the most stupid thing on earth.
He could display his anger inside the garage.
Yeah I kinda agree with you. But I hope that next year they won't mess up like that again.

And about the whole conspiracy of other teams vs Ferrari, I think its very likely. Ferrari has very few friends in Formula 1, if any at all. Other teams are jealous of our success, not that we are winning most of the time but that we attract the best sponsors, have the largest fan base etc. They all want a piece of that this is why they all win when Ferrari fails somewhere.

[Tifosi]

I don't think it was normal; I think it was understandable, which is different. And the same goes for Alonso's fist.

Excellent post :thumb

I find it quite amusing that some people think that they know everything about the team - more indeed than the team does about themselves - and are therefore genuinely amazed when Ferrari don't agree with them or act in exactly the way that they think that they should.

You have to be incredibly naive if you think Ferrari blame Massa & Smedley for the backlash of Germany. Equally, you have to be incredibly naive if you think that Fernando's hand gesture to Petrov makes him a bad sportsman. Some people are just so simplistic.

[Greig]

Has Dyer, Smedley and Massa been sacked yet?

I imagine there is a crowd of baying Tifosi at the Maranello gates demanding they leave!

[Tifosi]

What's "backstabbing rats" in Italian again? :roll

[Greig]

Di Backstabbi Rati

I think :-)

[Tifosi]

You made me spit my tea out :lol

[Diego]

Massa performed horribly this season. Besides that he deliberately lost 1.5 s in the pitlane in the final race. Ferrari was hugely fined because of him and his engineer and Ferrari lost reputation because of him. What more is needed to sack someone ?

[Greig]

Massa performed horribly this season. Besides that he deliberately lost 1.5 s in the pitlane in the final race. Ferrari was hugely fined because of him and his engineer and Ferrari lost reputation because of him. What more is needed to sack someone ?

Ah so he went slow on purpose in the pitlane, or did you just make that up :-D Ferrari would have been fined no matter what Massa and Rob said in Germany, it was a clear team order, blame Stefano if you must for that one :-)

But anyway, MS deliberately let Mika win at Suzuka 99 to not help Eddie, we got fined much more for MS in Austria, we lost reputation for his other antics, yet wait we never sacked him....amazing!

[Corey]

But anyway, MS deliberately let Mika win at Suzuka 99 to not help Eddie, we got fined much more for MS in Austria, we lost reputation for his other antics, yet wait we never sacked him....amazing!

Well, that is simply because... he is MICHAEL SCHUMACHER:-D

[Diego]

It was a clear team order because of what his engineer said and the way Massa let Alonso pass. The engineer could have said "save fuel" and Massa could have make the pass less obvious. How can you compare MS with Massa ? He gave Ferrari 5 worl titles, Massa 0 !

[AvantiFer]

It was a clear team order because of what his engineer said and the way Massa let Alonso pass. The engineer could have said "save fuel" and Massa could have make the pass less obvious. How can you compare MS with Massa ? He gave Ferrari 5 worl titles, Massa 0 !
Yes so?

Massa and Rob had the opinion it was too soon for team orders so they made their opinion visible. I agree with them, it was too soon and Massa could have proved them wrong at the end of the season. It was good for Ferrari that Massa didn't get his problem fixed and proved they wrong, but it could have happened because they were in the middle of the season, so I wouldn't blame them for this...

For what I'd blame Massa for is exactly this, not being able to adapt his driving to a different tyres... what if in 2012 they decide to change the front tyre width? we'll have another year with one driver struggling again?

[Diego]

It doesn't matter whether you or Massa agree or not. You get orders from your team. Your team is paying you millions of euro's and therefore you have to obey. I don't like to point out a number 1 in the team. But if one is really performing worse than the other and the team principle decide that it is time to point a number 1, you have no right to do what Massa did. Alonso clearly was the faster driver. And Domenicali decided that at that specific moment it was time to make his best driver number 1. They both started equally but Alonso won himself the number 1 status. Bad luck for Massa but that is reality. In any case, whether or not you agree on the decision to make Alonso number 1 in Germany, you simply have to obey team orders. In my company they made me do things I didn't like too. But I obeyed because they are paying me. It is very simple. If I don't listen or if I do things to destroy my company's reputation, they will fire me. So I have no idea why Massa is still walking around in Maranello. Massa had a crappy season. And 1 crappy season can be forgiven if you show full loyalty to the team. He didn't so there is no forgiveness possible.

Whatever happens in 2012, Alonso will always perform. He showed he can adapt to whatever kind of tyres or car.

[racingbradley]

Kick Massa and his race engineer out of Ferrari for betraying his team. He lost 1.5 seconds in the pitlane in Abu Dhabi with respect to Webber ! He didnt want to help Alonso and because of that Ferrari lost the WDC. Their display in Germany harmed the image of Ferrari which also resulted in a fine of 1.000.000 dollar. This is unforgivable.

Ok your idol didn't win the WDC. Take a chill pill and start dreaming about next year but don't be a bit surprised to see Massa biting at his heels.:lol

[Diego]

It has nothing to do with idols. I would react the same way if Alonso did that. If he is out of the equation he should help Massa win the WDC. But after this year I couldn't blame him if he doesn't help Massa in the future.

[elekvault]

Ok your idol didn't win the WDC. Take a chill pill and start dreaming about next year but don't be a bit surprised to see Massa biting at his heels.:lol

Actually, I'd be surprised. I really think there's more to Massa's average performance this season than only the tyres problem, and even if it actually was that alone, I can't grasp why a top-class driver like him can't adapt his driving to whatever conditions after a whole season. Plus, Alonso is one hard driver to beat, even with a worse car. I hope they can figure Massa's problems out ASAP so we can consistently see Ferrari 1-2's again.

Back on topic:

No. No conspiracies. We lost it. Move on.

[Greig]

It was a clear team order because of what his engineer said and the way Massa let Alonso pass. The engineer could have said "save fuel" and Massa could have make the pass less obvious. How can you compare MS with Massa ? He gave Ferrari 5 worl titles, Massa 0 !

They already told him to turn his engine down :-D

And I can compare easy, you say Felipe should be sacked, well why was MS never sacked for the things he done, 1997 rammed JV, he had not won a thing for us, 99 never tried to help, was forced to come back, still he had not won a thing, so you can't use the 5 titles thing to back him. Massa has been part of 2 titles for us, check the records ;-)

[Suzie]

Massa performed horribly this season. Besides that he deliberately lost 1.5 s in the pitlane in the final race.

Ah yes but did he CHOOSE to lose 1.5 seconds or did Chris Dyer TELL him to lose 1.5 seconds, so that Fernando wouldn't win the WDC?
And did the pit crew all know about this?
How was this kept a secret from Stefano?
SO many unanswered questions.

http://thegspotgirls.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/scully_mulder.jpg

[Greig]

For what I'd blame Massa for is exactly this, not being able to adapt his driving to a different tyres... what if in 2012 they decide to change the front tyre width? we'll have another year with one driver struggling again?

What like Alonso fans say Lewis only beat him because Alonso had to adapt to the tyres you mean?

Yawn

[Hermann]

What like Alonso fans say Lewis only beat him because Alonso had to adapt to the tyres you mean?

Yawn

No they don't. Fernando had to adapt to the tyres thats true, but its not the reason why Hamilton 'beat him' (they actually ended even in points and Fernando had the better race stats, only one podium less). But thats off- topic anyway, i suppose.

[AvantiFer]

What like Alonso fans say Lewis only beat him because Alonso had to adapt to the tyres you mean?

Yawn
Yes it's one of the reasons, but in my world it is still awesome to finish tied in points while adapting to new tyres and having your team "racing against you" and giving you the worst strategies ;-)

Signing him is the best decision Ferrari did since ages IMO!

edit: have to say that next best decision would be signing kubica now, we'd be winning WCC's non-stop :pray

[hogo]

It doesn't matter whether you or Massa agree or not. You get orders from your team. Your team is paying you millions of euro's and therefore you have to obey. I don't like to point out a number 1 in the team. But if one is really performing worse than the other and the team principle decide that it is time to point a number 1, you have no right to do what Massa did. Alonso clearly was the faster driver. And Domenicali decided that at that specific moment it was time to make his best driver number 1. They both started equally but Alonso won himself the number 1 status. Bad luck for Massa but that is reality. In any case, whether or not you agree on the decision to make Alonso number 1 in Germany, you simply have to obey team orders. In my company they made me do things I didn't like too. But I obeyed because they are paying me. It is very simple. If I don't listen or if I do things to destroy my company's reputation, they will fire me. So I have no idea why Massa is still walking around in Maranello. Massa had a crappy season. And 1 crappy season can be forgiven if you show full loyalty to the team. He didn't so there is no forgiveness possible.

Whatever happens in 2012, Alonso will always perform. He showed he can adapt to whatever kind of tyres or car.

Yes your logic wins, but Ferrari is not just a simple company it's "a big family" and they don't want to kick family members out just cos they did something wrong.

[Diego]

Being a family has to come from both sides. I don't see any commitment to the team from Massa's side. He has put his own pride above that of the team. He betrayed his team and had a chance for forgiveness by helping the team to win the WDC. But he didnt do that so there is where it stops. There is only 1 way for him ... the way out.

@suzie: Stop putting things in my mouth that I never said.

[Greig]

Yes it's one of the reasons, but in my world it is still awesome to finish tied in points while adapting to new tyres and having your team "racing against you" and giving you the worst strategies ;-)

Signing him is the best decision Ferrari did since ages IMO!

edit: have to say that next best decision would be signing kubica now, we'd be winning WCC's non-stop :pray

Why would Alonso let Kubica have a chance since he is his bestest friend? As if you care about WCC lol you are not and never have been here for the team.

[Sempre_Ferrari]

Yes your logic wins, but Ferrari is not just a simple company it's "a big family" and they don't want to kick family members out just cos they did something wrong.

and that my friends are the most important words one must remember when talking about the Scuderia, they are not a stuckup corporate team like the rest. Any of you that are Italian or know how Italian families work will know what it means.

And before anyone starts with 'this is a business, it's serious bla bla bla', in a way you're correct......but..... put the word "family" in front of "business" and you'll get family business ;-)

Well done hogo, couldn't have said it better myself :thumb

[Greig]

Being a family has to come from both sides. I don't see any commitment to the team from Massa's side. He has put his own pride above that of the team. He betrayed his team and had a chance for forgiveness by helping the team to win the WDC. But he didnt do that so there is where it stops. There is only 1 way for him ... the way out.

@suzie: Stop putting things in my mouth that I never said.

So you forget Brazil 2007 and tell us Massa is not committed to Ferrari?

You are the one that needs to find the way out I think.....

[Diego]

I didnt forget 2007. But 1 good doesnt make 1 bad right. He gets paid millions and he is obliged to listen. End of it.

[Greig]

I didnt forget 2007. But 1 good doesnt make 1 bad right. He gets paid millions and he is obliged to listen. End of it.

And he did listen, gave up a home GP win for Kimi, and gave up a win for Fernando, he has done everything Ferrari asked of him, and some more.

[Sempre_Ferrari]

I didnt forget 2007. But 1 good doesnt make 1 bad right. He gets paid millions and he is obliged to listen. End of it.

dude how on earth can you know all the details of what goes on at Ferrari? cause the way you look at things implies that you have all the facts...life isn't that simple mate

[Suzie]

@suzie: Stop putting things in my mouth that I never said.

Well you DID say that Chris Dyer did it on purpose, so...

But anyway - apologies!
To make up for it, here's what I believe you're looking for:

http://www.felipemassa.com/community/fan-club/

[Greig]

:lol

[racingbradley]

I didnt forget 2007. But 1 good doesnt make 1 bad right. He gets paid millions and he is obliged to listen. End of it.

I think you need to get over yourself. :-)
I really do not understand those who cry over something that cannot be fixed. 2010 season is over. No matter how much you moan it remains RB are the WCC and have the WDC.:-(:-(
Just an aside over the 2day Pirelli test I belive Massa was the quickest over all and Alonso 3rd. Hmmm:Hmm:Hmm

[Agron]

Do we really need to have this weird, pointless civil war in every thread?
Can't we go back to laughing at and criticizing McLaren, RB, Hamilton, Vettel and the rest of them opponents? I liked that :lol

[Anni]

It has nothing to do with idols. I would react the same way if Alonso did that. If he is out of the equation he should help Massa win the WDC. But after this year I couldn't blame him if he doesn't help Massa in the future.

I just don´t get your point! Please tell us exactly what did Felipe do, or not do in your opinion to ruin Fernando´s championship?
Fernando didn´t loose the points in Hockenheim, so Germany can´t be a reason for Fernando loosing. In the other races Felipe´s perfomance just wasn´t good enough to help Fernando. Do you honestly think this was on purpose? Do you think he could have gone faster, but just didn´t want to because this might have helped Fernando?
Felipe let Fernando pass in Hockenheim. In Monza Felipe could have been in front of Fernando after the first lap, in my opinion. Felipe helped as much as he could but unfortunatly he wasn´t fast enough to do more. Please tell us exactly why Felipe ruined Fernando´s championship, because I still don´t get your point, sorry.

[Anni]

Do we really need to have this weird, pointless civil war in every thread?
Can't we go back to laughing at and criticizing McLaren, RB, Hamilton, Vettel and the rest of them opponents? I liked that :lol

:thumb
I think we are all highly frustated. The Massa fans as well as the Alonso fans. Fernando lost the championship in the last race and about Felipe´s season we don´t need to talk. Maybe we should leave all this behind us, try to get rid of our frustrations and look forward to 2011 as a community and not as "Massa-fans" and "Alonso-fans". (Oh great, I sound like my granny: "Get along, kids!":-D )

[Diego]

Anni, I will help you. First, by clearly showing that he was ordered to make Alonso pass, Alonso almost lost his points. It is not only about Alonso. It is about Ferrari as a team too. Ferrari got a big fine because of that what Massa and his engineer did was a big blow for the reputation of Ferrari. Other teams also use team orders but they manage to hide them better. In that sence Domenicali failed horribly. He should have talked to the drivers before the race and come up with some hidden team orders like all the other teams are using. Because of the public revealing of those orders the public turned against Alonso. If Alonso would win with less than 7 points the championship would be tainted. Therefore, several teams teamed together against Alonso which made him lose the WDC in the last race. Moreover, Massa had a top 3 car. Other drivers like Button, Webber were there to take points away from Alonso. Massa did nothing in that respect. And in the last race it was reported that Massa lost 1.5 seconds in his stop. This was not due to the pit members but only because of him. On purpose he braked early and accelerated later to lose 1.5 seconds in order to be sure to end up behind Webber. I didn't understand how Massa got behind that much behind Webber untill I realized he lost those 1.5 secs. If he would have been in front of Webber like he should be, Ferrari would not have made that retarded call and Alonso would have been WDC.

[Greig]

If Ferrari feel Massa, Smedley, Dyer or whoever is not giving them 100% then they will be out the door, see Kimi for a recent example. What we say on here will have no bearing on what Ferrari do.

Saying other teams worked to stop Alonso winning the title is just mentalist behaviour really.

I would love to see the telemetry to prove that Massa braked early and accelerated later, would love to see that claim backed up......how about instead of blaming Massa you ask why Alonso lost a place to Jenson at the start? why did Alonso jump the start at China, why did he think cutting a corner at Silverstone would help, why did he throw it to the wall in Spa, seems to me your seeking reasons to excuse Alonso's mistakes......Alonso lost the title all by himself if you want to narrow it down to blaming individuals. Just like he lost it in 2007 by crashing out at China, but I bet Lewis was to blame for that right......

[Suzie]

Who needs telemetry Greig, when Diego is able to see into the very brain of Felipe!
Sounds like someone is still butthurt about Alonso losing the WDC. There, there. It'll be okay :-)

[AvantiFer]

If Ferrari feel Massa, Smedley, Dyer or whoever is not giving them 100% then they will be out the door, see Kimi for a recent example. What we say on here will have no bearing on what Ferrari do.

Saying other teams worked to stop Alonso winning the title is just mentalist behaviour really.

I would love to see the telemetry to prove that Massa braked early and accelerated later, would love to see that claim backed up......how about instead of blaming Massa you ask why Alonso lost a place to Jenson at the start? why did Alonso jump the start at China, why did he think cutting a corner at Silverstone would help, why did he throw it to the wall in Spa, seems to me your seeking reasons to excuse Alonso's mistakes......Alonso lost the title all by himself if you want to narrow it down to blaming individuals. Just like he lost it in 2007 by crashing out at China, but I bet Lewis was to blame for that right......
I agreed with your post until you got to the "look at how Fernando made mistakes too" to excuse the individuals Diego was blaming.

I don't agree with what Diego said, blaming Massa for the lost WDC. But of course, I can't agree with you saying it was Alonso's fault to lose the WDC. In fact, Fernando, Vettel, Webber and Hamilton didn't lose the WDC until the last race, where in fact, Alonso was leading the standings, and in that race a mistake done by some individual inside Ferrari costed us the WDC. The if's and what's if Fernando didn't make mistakes or the development team made a faster car: i'm not interested in.

[brembo man]

Diego wins ! Best post award. Begining to end, accurate. He just forgot to mention Todts a bum, and the chin is a traitor,who knows Alonso can win more titles than him.
Massa realizes now for sure he's the new Rubens and just can't accept it. Like Todt finally admitted, these guys are paid to do what there told before the season starts. Imagine Massa going to Williams!

[racingbradley]

Who needs telemetry Greig, when Diego is able to see into the very brain of Felipe!
Sounds like someone is still butthurt about Alonso losing the WDC. There, there. It'll be okay :-)
:clap:clap I don't think Diego can be easily placated.;-);-)

[Suzie]

Diego wins ! Best post award. Begining to end, accurate. He just forgot to mention Todts a bum, and the chin is a traitor,who knows Alonso can win more titles than him.
Massa realizes now for sure he's the new Rubens and just can't accept it. Like Todt finally admitted, these guys are paid to do what there told before the season starts. Imagine Massa going to Williams!

:clap
Yes.

[Greig]

I agreed with your post until you got to the "look at how Fernando made mistakes too" to excuse the individuals Diego was blaming.

I don't agree with what Diego said, blaming Massa for the lost WDC. But of course, I can't agree with you saying it was Alonso's fault to lose the WDC. In fact, Fernando, Vettel, Webber and Hamilton didn't lose the WDC until the last race, where in fact, Alonso was leading the standings, and in that race a mistake done by some individual inside Ferrari costed us the WDC. The if's and what's if Fernando didn't make mistakes or the development team made a faster car: i'm not interested in.

His poor start made the team have to worry about the strategy, so why not blame the reason for causing a decision to be made....oh wait that won't suit your need to blame the team.....hence why you are not interested in the big picture, no worries gotnov nobody here is interested in you either (for the 2nd time).

If we developed a faster car then you would say it was Alonso that done it anyway :-D

[racingbradley]

Imagine Massa going to Williams!

Frank would think all his Christmas's had come at once. He is happy with Rubens but with Felipe he would be ecstatic. :lol

[Stormsearcher]

Frank would think all his Christmas's had come at once. He is happy with Rubens but with Felipe he would be ecstatic. :lol

As long as we are dreaming, what if Frank got JPM back. :-)
firstly he will skin rubens alive.. and we will also get some more excitement in F1 and some ballsy overtaking (and crashes) to watch.

[Tifosi]

Diego wins ! Best post award. Begining to end, accurate. He just forgot to mention Todts a bum, and the chin is a traitor,who knows Alonso can win more titles than him.
Massa realizes now for sure he's the new Rubens and just can't accept it. Like Todt finally admitted, these guys are paid to do what there told before the season starts. Imagine Massa going to Williams!

:-ZZ

[REDARMYSOJA]

ask why Alonso lost a place to Jenson at the start?

Because Alonso was in on the conspiracy also. He didn't want to see himself win the WDC either.



why did Alonso jump the start at China,

He didn't. Charlie Whiting and the FIA rigged a time warp machine that made it look like Alonso started early, when actually he was right on it and everyone else was slow off the line. Those FIA sorts are most diabolical.



why did he think cutting a corner at Silverstone would help,

He didn't. He wasn't in on the conspiracy at that point. The FIA rigged the track where it could norrow itself at the push of a button. Alonso was actually where the track was before they shifted it. Kubica was in on it also.


why did he throw it to the wall in Spa,

Again, the FIA has the wall rigged where at the push of a button it moved into Alonso's path.


seems to me your seeking reasons to excuse Alonso's mistakes......

No no mate. He's quite right. A driver as great as Alonso couldn't possibly make mistakes. It's all pre-planned by the FIA.


Alonso lost the title all by himself if you want to narrow it down to blaming individuals. Just like he lost it in 2007 by crashing out at China, but I bet Lewis was to blame for that right......

No, remember spygate? They don't trust Hamilton with the sensative information. It was RD and his band of miscreants.

I love these conspiracy theories. The nuttier the better. I also believe Bigfoot shot JFK from the grassy knoll.

[AvantiFer]

lol

[scuderiafan]

Because Alonso was in on the conspiracy also. He didn't want to see himself win the WDC either.




He didn't. Charlie Whiting and the FIA rigged a time warp machine that made it look like Alonso started early, when actually he was right on it and everyone else was slow off the line. Those FIA sorts are most diabolical.




He didn't. He wasn't in on the conspiracy at that point. The FIA rigged the track where it could norrow itself at the push of a button. Alonso was actually where the track was before they shifted it. Kubica was in on it also.



Again, the FIA has the wall rigged where at the push of a button it moved into Alonso's path.



No no mate. He's quite right. A driver as great as Alonso couldn't possibly make mistakes. It's all pre-planned by the FIA.



No, remember spygate? They don't trust Hamilton with the sensative information. It was RD and his band of miscreants.

I love these conspiracy theories. The nuttier the better. I also believe Bigfoot shot JFK from the grassy knoll.

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[NJB13]

Because Alonso was in on the conspiracy also. He didn't want to see himself win the WDC either.

He didn't. Charlie Whiting and the FIA rigged a time warp machine that made it look like Alonso started early, when actually he was right on it and everyone else was slow off the line. Those FIA sorts are most diabolical.

He didn't. He wasn't in on the conspiracy at that point. The FIA rigged the track where it could norrow itself at the push of a button. Alonso was actually where the track was before they shifted it. Kubica was in on it also.

Again, the FIA has the wall rigged where at the push of a button it moved into Alonso's path.

No no mate. He's quite right. A driver as great as Alonso couldn't possibly make mistakes. It's all pre-planned by the FIA.

No, remember spygate? They don't trust Hamilton with the sensative information. It was RD and his band of miscreants.

I love these conspiracy theories. The nuttier the better. I also believe Bigfoot shot JFK from the grassy knoll.


I couldn't have laughed more - excellent stuff :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

I just hope that book is half as good as this post - BTW, that would be a great way to spend at least part of this off season :-D

[Tifosi]

I agreed with your post until you got to the "look at how Fernando made mistakes too" to excuse the individuals Diego was blaming.

:lol



I don't agree with what Diego said, blaming Massa for the lost WDC. But of course, I can't agree with you saying it was Alonso's fault to lose the WDC. In fact, Fernando, Vettel, Webber and Hamilton didn't lose the WDC until the last race, where in fact, Alonso was leading the standings, and in that race a mistake done by some individual inside Ferrari costed us the WDC. The if's and what's if Fernando didn't make mistakes or the development team made a faster car: i'm not interested in.

Are you ever going to learn? :roll No, you're not are you? :-s

[racingbradley]

Because Alonso was in on the conspiracy also. He didn't want to see himself win the WDC either.
He didn't. Charlie Whiting and the FIA rigged a time warp machine that made it look like Alonso started early, when actually he was right on it and everyone else was slow off the line. Those FIA sorts are most diabolical.
He didn't. He wasn't in on the conspiracy at that point. The FIA rigged the track where it could norrow itself at the push of a button. Alonso was actually where the track was before they shifted it. Kubica was in on it also.
Again, the FIA has the wall rigged where at the push of a button it moved into Alonso's path.
No no mate. He's quite right. A driver as great as Alonso couldn't possibly make mistakes. It's all pre-planned by the FIA.
No, remember spygate? They don't trust Hamilton with the sensative information. It was RD and his band of miscreants. I love these conspiracy theories. The nuttier the better. I also believe Bigfoot shot JFK from the grassy knoll.

Priceless keep writing.:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[Diego]

In fact I read that Alonso's bad start had to do with a problem with the gearbox. But still that didn't make him lose the title. They would have called him in anyway. Button was only 2 seconds ahead of Alonso so I dont understand why the mess wouldn't have happened. All other arguments are BS. Alonso made mistakes but he almost became WDC with probably the 3hd best car. So I don't think you can blame him from 1 jump starting mistake.

[Greig]

In fact I read that Alonso's bad start had to do with a problem with the gearbox. But still that didn't make him lose the title. They would have called him in anyway. Button was only 2 seconds ahead of Alonso so I dont understand why the mess wouldn't have happened. All other arguments are BS. Alonso made mistakes but he almost became WDC with probably the 3hd best car. So I don't think you can blame him from 1 jump starting mistake.

So why are you blaming Massa for not beating others when he too had the 3rd best car? Maybe it's time to accept he never won, and he got over it pretty quickly and is focused on winning next year, 2nd pace in his first season is a good return, no shame really :-)

You maybe have a low opinion of Fernando's talents behind the wheel and expect everyone to be the same level?

[Diego]

Well, I do expect Massa to come out in front of Webber after Webber ruined his race by smashing his rear tyre against the wall. I would even have speeded in the pit entry to get in front of Webben and hold him back for several laps untill I get a drive through.

[Greig]

Well, I do expect Massa to come out in front of Webber after Webber ruined his race by smashing his rear tyre against the wall. I would even have speeded in the pit entry to get in front of Webben and hold him back for several laps untill I get a drive through.

The wall never made Webber pit, but yeah maybe Massa should have jumped the start, rammed Webber and Vettel then took the penalty afterwards, that would be a right fair victory for Alonso for sure!

You are just trolling now really ain't you?

[Diego]

I am not trolling. You are putting words in my mouth that I never said. Massa should have been in front of Webber easily. How he managed to get behind that much behind Webber is a mistery. As I said I heard reports that claim Massa lost 1.5 secs wrt Webber in the pits. I never asked for Massa to crash Webber or Vettel. That is not how I want Ferrari to win titles. I ask for no number 1. Both have equality. If the season points out driver is faster than the other, you pick a number 1 and the number 2 devotes himself in helping the number 1 with all he can. That is what I blame Massa. He is jealous because Alonso is better so he did nothing to help him and drove like an amateur. He isn't even capable of overtaking a car. In Brazil he was a joke on 4 wheels. He showed he was not worthy a Ferrari drive.

I am not gonna give all the blame on him. The main blaim goes to Ferrari who wasn't capable of producing a car fast enough. If you see their budget and how much of a speed advantage RedBull had, it is a real shame. Alonso made mistakes in the first half of the season. But he had to adjust to the new car too. People tend to forget that. Not every pilot can just swap teams like Alonso and perform like that.

[Greig]

Why should he have been ahead of Webber, he had the 3rd best car, Webber had the best car, Webber was not held up. Massa had a slower in and out lap than Webber, yes, so did Alonso.....you claim Massa done it on purpose, which would mean he had to know the timings, so Rob must have told him, but Stefano never heard this right as they made a plan to scupper Alonso....ok.....Massa is incapable of overtaking a car you so, remind me how Alonso did at overtaking in Abu Dhabi....oh yeah he never.

So the main reasons Alonso never won the title, were Ferrari and Massa, nothing at all do to with Alonso right? the jump start, the crash in Spa, the penalty at Silverstone, the poor start at Abu Dhabi are all forgotten in your mind, and maybe you should check the budgets again, Red Bull dwarf Ferrari for money.....

[Diego]

He should have been ahead because Webber had to switch tyres and needed to get heat into them while Massa had some laps with heated soft tyres. I am not talking about in and outlaps. His total pit time was 1.5 secs longer. Alonso overtoke 2 cars in Brazil of which one was a McLaren driven by Hamilton. A driver can make mistakes. All drivers made mistakes this season. You can't blame a driver for making mistakes, espcially not in his first season in a new car. But you can blame a driver for lack of committment and horrible performance.

[Diego]

I went to the official f1 site and found out that Massa indeed lost 1.5 secs wrt Webber. From all top drivers he lost by far most time in the pits

[Corey]

1.5 seconds 1.5 seconds 1.5 seconds.

Why is this mentioned over and over again in the 4 pages of this thread?

[Greig]

He should have been ahead because Webber had to switch tyres and needed to get heat into them while Massa had some laps with heated soft tyres. I am not talking about in and outlaps. His total pit time was 1.5 secs longer. Alonso overtoke 2 cars in Brazil of which one was a McLaren driven by Hamilton. A driver can make mistakes. All drivers made mistakes this season. You can't blame a driver for making mistakes, espcially not in his first season in a new car. But you can blame a driver for lack of committment and horrible performance.

So Alonso overtook, rather than Hamilton made a pretty basic mistake then? nice :-)

And there is no rule that Massa should be quicker on soft tyres that had began to grain compared to Webber on fresh hard rubber with no graining. As far as I remember Massa was setting personal bests before coming in for his stop, so how did Rob and he come up with this plan to deliberately go slow? I think you should go back and watch the pitstop of Massa again, he stopped on the mark and went as soon as the light went green, if you are not talking about in or out laps then where did he on purpose lose 1.5 seconds because he was jealous?

Webber and Vettel done the fastest stops of the race, maybe just maybe they done a better job in the pitlane than us? It does happen you know...Alonso lost half a second to Webber in his stop, was that on purpose too? Massa was 9ths slower than Alonso in the pits, you do realise how minuscule that amount of time is when mechanics are changing tyres? they are not robots.....

[coolrunnings_99]

IMHO Webber went way too early in for his first stop, on the team radio he said (webbo-pit) he s loosing rear grip and/or tyres.
Next lap he was in, so I think a slow puncture, or fear of it made them pit earlier.
He did bang the wall, not lightly, after that Alonso was out of his reach.

[Diego]

He overtoke him and put pressure on him. It was a very nice pass. He also overtoke Hulkenberg. Massa overcrashed many cars though.

Yes there is. Webber needed at least 1 lap to get heat in his tyres. It should have been possible to overtake him because that is why he was called in. Alonso los 0.5 secs. RedBull did great stops. But 1.5 secs is still 1 sec more than 0.5. Of the drivers with a top 3 car Massa had the slowest pit stop. Strange, isn't it ? Massa didn't lose 1 second during tyre change. That is complete nonsense.

Anyway, Massa had a catastrophe season. He should be out. In a top team you can't drive like that.

[Greig]

He overtoke him and put pressure on him. It was a very nice pass. He also overtoke Hulkenberg. Massa overcrashed many cars though.

Yes there is. Webber needed at least 1 lap to get heat in his tyres. It should have been possible to overtake him because that is why he was called in. Alonso los 0.5 secs. RedBull did great stops. But 1.5 secs is still 1 sec more than 0.5. Of the drivers with a top 3 car Massa had the slowest pit stop. Strange, isn't it ? Massa didn't lose 1 second during tyre change. That is complete nonsense.

Anyway, Massa had a catastrophe season. He should be out. In a top team you can't drive like that.

Lewis made a mistake, it was not a overtake and we both know it :-) So where is the evidence that cold hard tyres are better than graining soft tyres, there is none is there :-)

So where did Massa lose the 9 tenths to Alonso in the pitstops then? Massa won't be out on the basis of one season, he has been at Ferrari since 2006 (in the race seat), he has shown enough for them to know what he has and can bring to the team, and they won't throw him out for one poor season.

[Fiondella]

Pirelli Test seems to confirm that Nando will have a tough test with his team mate let alone the rest of the pack next year. Massa back on it next year me thinks

[brembo man]

Another disgraceful post. What a waste of time and space.
Incase you havent realised, 2010 is finished, and there is no point at all winging and complaining about what happened. I think we should be more interested in what WILL happen. 2011 is among us, so lets focus on next year and stay positive.

Tell that to Aldo Costa."Never again will we play it safe and not go all out". Etc. Aldo and the rest of the Ferrari team are just wasting time and space. I guess they haven't realized 2010 is finished! Is that what your trying to say?

[Suzie]

I went to the official f1 site and found out that Massa indeed lost 1.5 secs wrt Webber. From all top drivers he lost by far most time in the pits

I'm shocked that the official site doesn't also say that Massa lost 1.5 seconds on purpose. Jeez you'd think of all websites they'd be the ones in the know.
Be sure to let them know won't you.

[Tifosi]

Anyway, Massa had a catastrophe season. He should be out. In a top team you can't drive like that.

You're not doing too well yourself during your short stint on the forums so far. You're failing to get a grip on what appear to be your "option tyres of logic" and not getting much support as a result so i'd have thought you would be able to empathise with Massa.

Who is left in your fantasy Ferrari team in 2011 btw? Fernando and his pasta chef have just about made it through by the look of it. :Hmm

[Alonsomaniac]

Massa lost 1.5 sec. because he hadn't finished drinking his Red Bull in time?:-??

[Greig]

Or he was daydreaming about what to wear to the after race party to celebrate Alonso not winning :-D

[Diego]

Alonso was behind Lewis and suddenly he was in front of Lewis without Lewis touching the grass. According to the dictionary that is called overtaking. He also overtook Hulkenberg. Hamilton wasn't capable of repeating that although his car is better suited for overtaking than the Ferrari.

Massa lost 9 tenths by braking early going into the pits and accelerating late leaving the pits. There is no other way for him to have lost 9 tenths wrt to Alonso. The pit crew did a perfect job with Massa. I would love to see the footage again of both stops. As far as I recall Massa had a very fast stop. So how he was capable to lose that much of time in the pits is a mystery to me unless he deliberately braked early and accelerated late to be sure to end up behind Webber. Anyway, it is a good thing to analyse the difference between Ferrari and RedBull. RedBull was 0.5 secs faster than Alonso in the pits. This means there is room for improvement. Ferrari has another thing to work on for next season.

Sometimes a driver is allowed to stay for other reasons than ability. It is not my call to decide what should happen to Ferrari. I can only tell you that in my team/business I would never tolerate what Massa did to Ferrari in Germany. I would have taken action immediately and replace him by a spare driver. If he would have swapped positions in a professional way, I would have forgiven his lack of pace and give him 2011 to prove he is worth a Ferrari seat.. But since he didn't do that, he would be out immediately. This not only holds for Massa, but also for Alonso. If Alonso pulls of a McLaren in Ferrari, I would kick him out also. The ego of the pilots is bigger than the teams nowadays. And this I would not tolerate in my team.

It is clear from your comments that you think I have a personal issue with Massa. That's not the case. Both pilots should realize they are driving for a team and work together. If in 2011 it turns out midseason that Massa is the only shot to win the WDC, then sorry for Alonso, but he has to play second fiddle from that moment on and I would demand him to do this in a commited and professional way.

[Greig]

As I said go watch the pitstop, there is no delay on Massa's part, you are making it up for some reason. For Massa to do what you say he did then he would have to have been told how much time to lose, who would tell him that? smoke signals, telepathy? or just pure guesswork on his behalf? How did he know what laptimes Webber was doing in relation to himself? go on think about it without making things up.

[Ken]

Alonso was behind Lewis and suddenly he was in front of Lewis without Lewis touching the grass. According to the dictionary that is called overtaking. He also overtook Hulkenberg. Hamilton wasn't capable of repeating that although his car is better suited for overtaking than the Ferrari.

Massa lost 9 tenths by braking early going into the pits and accelerating late leaving the pits. There is no other way for him to have lost 9 tenths wrt to Alonso. The pit crew did a perfect job with Massa. I would love to see the footage again of both stops. As far as I recall Massa had a very fast stop. So how he was capable to lose that much of time in the pits is a mystery to me unless he deliberately braked early and accelerated late to be sure to end up behind Webber. Anyway, it is a good thing to analyse the difference between Ferrari and RedBull. RedBull was 0.5 secs faster than Alonso in the pits. This means there is room for improvement. Ferrari has another thing to work on for next season.

Sometimes a driver is allowed to stay for other reasons than ability. It is not my call to decide what should happen to Ferrari. I can only tell you that in my team/business I would never tolerate what Massa did to Ferrari in Germany. I would have taken action immediately and replace him by a spare driver. If he would have swapped positions in a professional way, I would have forgiven his lack of pace and give him 2011 to prove he is worth a Ferrari seat.. But since he didn't do that, he would be out immediately. This not only holds for Massa, but also for Alonso. If Alonso pulls of a McLaren in Ferrari, I would kick him out also. The ego of the pilots is bigger than the teams nowadays. And this I would not tolerate in my team.

It is clear from your comments that you think I have a personal issue with Massa. That's not the case. Both pilots should realize they are driving for a team and work together. If in 2011 it turns out midseason that Massa is the only shot to win the WDC, then sorry for Alonso, but he has to play second fiddle from that moment on and I would demand him to do this in a commited and professional way.

I have to admire your dedication and stamina in this matter sir.

Though you do not seem to care or consider the opinions of others or their replies to your comments.

I have high lighted the only factually correct statement I can find within your previous monologues that does you credit.

But it would have to be said your comments to and about the team are more demoralising than motivational. And in some instances go beyond fair criticism.

IF you are the Ferrari fan you wish us to believe you are, please Lighten up and encourage the team and us.;-)

[Sempre_Ferrari]

can every body hear the constant and repetitive drone? it's like an old bearing that needs greasing *whine..whine..whine..whine*...somebody should call Shell to come sort it out :lol

[NJB13]

Alonso was behind Lewis and suddenly he was in front of Lewis without Lewis touching the grass. According to the dictionary that is called overtaking. He also overtook Hulkenberg. Hamilton wasn't capable of repeating that although his car is better suited for overtaking than the Ferrari.

Massa lost 9 tenths by braking early going into the pits and accelerating late leaving the pits. There is no other way for him to have lost 9 tenths wrt to Alonso. The pit crew did a perfect job with Massa. I would love to see the footage again of both stops. As far as I recall Massa had a very fast stop. So how he was capable to lose that much of time in the pits is a mystery to me unless he deliberately braked early and accelerated late to be sure to end up behind Webber. Anyway, it is a good thing to analyse the difference between Ferrari and RedBull. RedBull was 0.5 secs faster than Alonso in the pits. This means there is room for improvement. Ferrari has another thing to work on for next season.

Sometimes a driver is allowed to stay for other reasons than ability. It is not my call to decide what should happen to Ferrari. I can only tell you that in my team/business I would never tolerate what Massa did to Ferrari in Germany. I would have taken action immediately and replace him by a spare driver. If he would have swapped positions in a professional way, I would have forgiven his lack of pace and give him 2011 to prove he is worth a Ferrari seat.. But since he didn't do that, he would be out immediately. This not only holds for Massa, but also for Alonso. If Alonso pulls of a McLaren in Ferrari, I would kick him out also. The ego of the pilots is bigger than the teams nowadays. And this I would not tolerate in my team.

It is clear from your comments that you think I have a personal issue with Massa. That's not the case. Both pilots should realize they are driving for a team and work together. If in 2011 it turns out midseason that Massa is the only shot to win the WDC, then sorry for Alonso, but he has to play second fiddle from that moment on and I would demand him to do this in a commited and professional way.

Like Ken, I decided to highlight the parts of your post that I agree with.



I have to admire your dedication and stamina in this matter sir.
Couldn't a stuck record likewise, be considered dedicated?


Though you do not seem to care or consider the opinions of others or their replies to your comments.

I have high lighted the only factually correct statement I can find within your previous monologues that does you credit.

But it would have to be said your comments to and about the team are more demoralising than motivational. And in some instances go beyond fair criticism.

IF you are the Ferrari fan you wish us to believe you are, please Lighten up and encourage the team and us.;-)

+1

[racingbradley]

Perhaps all has been said that can be said and this thread needs closure :-)
Come back Vectra all is forgiven ;-);-)

[Diego]

I know there is nothing wrong with the pitstop of Massa. That is why it is strange he lost 1.5 s to Webber and 1 sec to Alonso. So if the pit crew was fast, explain me why Massa was 1 sec slower ? If you compare the 2 RedBull drivers their pit time is within 0.2 secs. The same holds for the 2 McLarens. So give me an explanation. Where did Massa lose that full second ? He doesn't need to know Webber's lap time. He just lost time in the hope to end up behind him, which happened. He didn't do any maths. He can't lose 10 seconds in the pits because that would make it too obvious.

Anyway, it is obvious you are a Massa fan. Because in Lagazetta people have been very critical with Massa. In the first races he was overtaken sometimes very easily but when Alonso tried to overtake he defended very agressively. His only goal was to keep Alonso behind him. Ferrari fans heavily criticized that behavior.

By the way, for all those that said my comments concerning the conspiracy are laughable, I was recently notified that some journalists have the same suspicious but they were threatened to lose their pitpass if they would investigate this. F1 and the FIA is 1 big maffia. They are manipulating championship after championship. I know this for years. But to the nonbelievers just keep on dreaming that life is all about sunshine and butterflies.

[Ken]

By the way, for all those that said my comments concerning the conspiracy are laughable, I was recently notified that some journalists have the same suspicious but they were threatened to lose their pitpass if they would investigate this. F1 and the FIA is 1 big maffia. They are manipulating championship after championship. I know this for years. But to the nonbelievers just keep on dreaming that life is all about sunshine and butterflies.

In which of your dreams did this idea appear ?

I do not know what your smoking or popping but if these are the results I do not want any and recommend you changer your dealer.

You seem more interested in winding us Ferrari fans up than actualy supporting the team ?? would I be right ??

[Diego]

In fact I just read a comment from Aldo Costa in which he also talks about intra team cooperation. However, I see it more broad than he does. He only speaks about Torro Rosso. My scope is much wider.

[Greig]

I know there is nothing wrong with the pitstop of Massa. That is why it is strange he lost 1.5 s to Webber and 1 sec to Alonso. So if the pit crew was fast, explain me why Massa was 1 sec slower ? If you compare the 2 RedBull drivers their pit time is within 0.2 secs. The same holds for the 2 McLarens. So give me an explanation. Where did Massa lose that full second ? He doesn't need to know Webber's lap time. He just lost time in the hope to end up behind him, which happened. He didn't do any maths. He can't lose 10 seconds in the pits because that would make it too obvious.

Anyway, it is obvious you are a Massa fan. Because in Lagazetta people have been very critical with Massa. In the first races he was overtaken sometimes very easily but when Alonso tried to overtake he defended very agressively. His only goal was to keep Alonso behind him. Ferrari fans heavily criticized that behavior.

By the way, for all those that said my comments concerning the conspiracy are laughable, I was recently notified that some journalists have the same suspicious but they were threatened to lose their pitpass if they would investigate this. F1 and the FIA is 1 big maffia. They are manipulating championship after championship. I know this for years. But to the nonbelievers just keep on dreaming that life is all about sunshine and butterflies.

So it was just luck that he on purpose came out behind Webber, phew lucky guess for Massa then, go watch both our stops again, you will see Nando's stop is done quicker, that is all the facts you need, time them if you wish I am sure you have a stop watch at the ready :-)

Obvious I am a Massa fan? oh ok then, obvious I am a Ferrari fan, and does it not ring alarm bells for you that not one single person on this forum can see any sort of sense in your claims, not even the most loyal Alonso fan can agree with your allegations surely that tells you something about your opinion. So you are now claiming Massa done a slow pitstop not out of jealousy, but was told to by a greater power than Ferrari? Amazing!

Tell me if these great powers were manipulating a champ then why did they give Seb a penalty? Clearly you are just trying to wind members up now with such ridiculous comments, come back when you actually have some facts rather than making up fantasy theories.

[Greig]

In fact I just read a comment from Aldo Costa in which he also talks about intra team cooperation. However, I see it more broad than he does. He only speaks about Torro Rosso. My scope is much wider.

What like Sauber drivers being told to block JV at Jerez.....really hardly anything new, so you are saying Torro Rosso were in on the plan for Massa to get out behind Webber as well? remarkable......in fact no just hilarious.

[Diego]

Dear Greig, I hope in future you are going to change the tone in your interactions. If you want to discuss just stick to giving pure facts. Don't incorporate all these emotional stuff like "your comments are hilarious", "you are smoking too much", or whatever. That is done by people with lack of arguments and class.

Show me a link where I can see Massa's and Alonso's stop again and I will look at it into more detail. As for now on I don't find anything online of those stops. As far as I know I don't remember Massa having a slower stop than anyone else. I looked the pit time online and drivers from equal teams have comparable pit times, with exception of Massa. That sounds fishy to me. Yes, you are a Massa fan because I gave several other points of critics but you especially focus on the one I made about Massa, which is the less important critics of them all.

First of all I don't know why you as a Ferrari fan would feel so attacked by me claiming some FIA conspiracy. I am doubting now you are even a Ferrari or Massa fan. You start to sound more like a British anti-Alonso boy coming from planetf1 or autosport forum. Secondly, there are indeed facts. Norbert Haug said before the race that they would do everything to make Vettel world champion. What did he mean about that ? There is something fishy about that remark. Thirdly, Kubica was holding back Hamilton for no reason. It was in his own disinterest to do that. Letting Hamilton through would have been a much better tactic for him for reasons I already explained. Kubica drives for Renault, a team that provides engines to RedBull. So he and Renault definitely had motifs to help RedBull get the title. Because of Kubica's action I am convinced Petrov would have Webber pass if Alonso wouldn't have pit. So whatever strategy Ferrari would have opted for Alonso would never have been WDC. And according to me it was quite obvious Alguersuari let Webber pass. Even Newey admitted that in an interview a day after Abu Dhabi. I understand why Alguersuari did that, but of course that was an act of championship manipulation. Alguersuari already pitted and from a racing point of view it should have been in his interest to do the same as Petrov did to Alonso.

And it may sound weird that I involve the FIA. But as I said I got a report about the matter of someone whose identity I wish not to reveal. You can or you cannot believe me, that is up to you. But the FIA is an organisation in which I don't believe. I have seen to many strange things from them in order for me to believe that they run the show in a honest way. There is too much interest involved into it.

I would also appreciate to stop putting things in my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say Torro Rosso caused Massa to be behind Webber. What I said was that Torro Rosso let Webber pass which from the racing point of view is manipulation of the championship outcome. There was no reason for Alguersuari to let Webber through other than Torro Rosso being the second team of RedBull. If Jaime would have raced normally Webber would have been stuck behind him and both Massa and Alonso would not have pitted. This is not rocket science but a very simple deduction that has already been made by people like Newey and Aldo Costa.

By the way, I am not winding everyone up. I have no reason to wind up anyone. The only ones getting winded up are those who believe that people have no right to have another view on reality than theirs.

[Tony]

I remember during the race that one of the pit reporters was saying the pit team had a problem putting on one of the wheels and that Massa lost some time due to that.... can't remember how much though....

[justjesper]

How is it that the strategy has now become another fight btw Massa and Alonso ?

The energy should be used on next years car, so barrie your battle axes.

[Diego]

How is it that the strategy has now become another fight btw Massa and Alonso ?

The energy should be used on next years car, so barrie your battle axes.

My original post was not intended for starting a discussion Massa-Alonso. My main point was that a group of teams joined forces to make Vettel world champion. In the process I stated that Massa performed horribly and according to me showed no commitment to the team which were my arguments to get replace him by another driver. Anyway, you are right. This thread shouldn't turn into an Alonso vs Massa battle. There should be discussed whether this championship was orchestrated by a group of 4 teams or not, probably with the help of the FIA or not.

[Greig]

Dear Greig, I hope in future you are going to change the tone in your interactions. If you want to discuss just stick to giving pure facts. Don't incorporate all these emotional stuff like "your comments are hilarious", "you are smoking too much", or whatever. That is done by people with lack of arguments and class.

Show me a link where I can see Massa's and Alonso's stop again and I will look at it into more detail. As for now on I don't find anything online of those stops. As far as I know I don't remember Massa having a slower stop than anyone else. I looked the pit time online and drivers from equal teams have comparable pit times, with exception of Massa. That sounds fishy to me. Yes, you are a Massa fan because I gave several other points of critics but you especially focus on the one I made about Massa, which is the less important critics of them all.

First of all I don't know why you as a Ferrari fan would feel so attacked by me claiming some FIA conspiracy. I am doubting now you are even a Ferrari or Massa fan. You start to sound more like a British anti-Alonso boy coming from planetf1 or autosport forum. Secondly, there are indeed facts. Norbert Haug said before the race that they would do everything to make Vettel world champion. What did he mean about that ? There is something fishy about that remark. Thirdly, Kubica was holding back Hamilton for no reason. It was in his own disinterest to do that. Letting Hamilton through would have been a much better tactic for him for reasons I already explained. Kubica drives for Renault, a team that provides engines to RedBull. So he and Renault definitely had motifs to help RedBull get the title. Because of Kubica's action I am convinced Petrov would have Webber pass if Alonso wouldn't have pit. So whatever strategy Ferrari would have opted for Alonso would never have been WDC. And according to me it was quite obvious Alguersuari let Webber pass. Even Newey admitted that in an interview a day after Abu Dhabi. I understand why Alguersuari did that, but of course that was an act of championship manipulation. Alguersuari already pitted and from a racing point of view it should have been in his interest to do the same as Petrov did to Alonso.

And it may sound weird that I involve the FIA. But as I said I got a report about the matter of someone whose identity I wish not to reveal. You can or you cannot believe me, that is up to you. But the FIA is an organisation in which I don't believe. I have seen to many strange things from them in order for me to believe that they run the show in a honest way. There is too much interest involved into it.

I would also appreciate to stop putting things in my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say Torro Rosso caused Massa to be behind Webber. What I said was that Torro Rosso let Webber pass which from the racing point of view is manipulation of the championship outcome. There was no reason for Alguersuari to let Webber through other than Torro Rosso being the second team of RedBull. If Jaime would have raced normally Webber would have been stuck behind him and both Massa and Alonso would not have pitted. This is not rocket science but a very simple deduction that has already been made by people like Newey and Aldo Costa.

By the way, I am not winding everyone up. I have no reason to wind up anyone. The only ones getting winded up are those who believe that people have no right to have another view on reality than theirs.

I never said anything about what you smoke, but it must be strong to come out with the comments you have in this thread, also you keep changing your mind, firstly Massa done it on purpose because he is jealous, and now it was a higher power that manipulates champs, although neither of them have any foundation, you are the one making claims about Massa yet you do not even have evidence to back it up? Why would you do that?

So I am a anti-Ferrari from PF1 now? Ok I can accept that, apart from the fact that this is my website that I started in 1998, I believe before Planet F1 or Alonso etc etc, so it was great foresight by myself to create a Ferrari site so I can hate on a driver some 10 years later :-D Renault might well have preferred Red Bull to win, so what? no crime in that, it was decided on track at the wheel, and Alonso could not overtake the Renault, nevermind the Mercedes which is also against him...thats the way it goes, there is no crime there, just like Alonso wanted to help Massa win the title in 2008, does not mean he could actually do it.

Torro Rosso did let Webber through, did not make any difference though. Massa also let Alonso through at Germany and gave him it easy at Monza, so is that not title manipulation? Webber made the pass on Jaime after Massa had pitted I am pretty sure also.

You are perfectly entitled to have another view, but at least give some evidence to back it up, you coming on saying Massa done it on purpose needs to be backed up, yet you say I am not a Ferrari fan yet you come here and put down one of our drivers in such a ridiculous way without any sort of foundation.....you then claim the FIA had a hand in all this, so Massa is not to blame at all he was doing as he was told by the FIA right? and Alonso must also be part of it also to give away 3rd at the start then to pit early, it was all decided before hand and each and every driver knew what they had to do....MS even faked his spin to cause the SC, on FIA orders......I can see it all now....

If you believe the FIA manipulates and decides the champs then I struggle to understand how you can even watch F1 knowing its already decided..

[Diego]

I never changed my mind. You simply don't understand what I write and you are simply mixing the things I say. That is why I say you should stop putting things in my mouth that I never said. Unfortunately, you still keep doing it.

Well, if so, there is something very wrong with you. Because there is no reason for any Ferrari fan to feel angry because of my anti-FIA claims. I can understand some people here don't like I attack Massa. But why people would feel offended by me attacking the FIA, I seriously don't understand.

I have no problem whatsoever with Alguersuari letting Webber pass. Not at all. What I think is problematic is the fact that they are screaming Ferrari are cheaters for what they did in Germany. They are shouting they don't use team orders and they are very honest people. But than they do this, which is a clear team order. Ferrari got a fine for that. When RedBull does it, people don't even speak about it. When Ferrari does it, it is called championship manipulation. When RedBull does it, it was a smart move to do.

As I said before, one of my recommendations for Ferrari is to work closely together with other teams like HRT, Virgin, Force India, ... I would provide them engines at very good prices or even invest money in those teams. And at the end of the season I would use these teams to block all my oponents. RedBull set a very dangerous prescedense. They used a second team to win the title. As a boss of Ferrari I would learn from that by doing the same. But now, I don't work with 1 extra team but with several. If the FIA allows RedBull to do that, why can't Ferrari do that also ? Of course, this will destroy the sport. But I don't care. RedBull is to blame with their smart move. Swapping positions of 2 pilots in the same team isn't such a big deal. This has happened always, though in a smarter way. In Brazil Hamilton and Button were also swapped in a 'smart' way. But swapping interteam is a prescedence that kills the sport. And apparently you support that.

I gave facts, the problem is you don't acknowledge them. Massa lost 1.5 secs in the pits. That is my fact. Explain me how that is possible. Show me your facts. You blame me of showing no facts, but where are your facts ? I also gave several facts of why it is very highly probable several teams were helping Vettel. The problem is that you pretend to not have read them. The FIA is also manipulating constantly. I am not even planning to go into detail about that. If you don't want to realize/see that, that is fine for me. I don't really care too much. In fact, I don't watch F1 anymore as I used too. Once I realized all the manipulations from the FIA, my interest went down sharply. This season I think I have seen less than half of the races. And if F1 continues like this I will probably only watch when it is raining and I am utterly bored.

[Anni]

So it was just luck that he on purpose came out behind Webber, phew lucky guess for Massa then, go watch both our stops again, you will see Nando's stop is done quicker, that is all the facts you need, time them if you wish I am sure you have a stop watch at the ready :-)

Obvious I am a Massa fan? oh ok then, obvious I am a Ferrari fan, and does it not ring alarm bells for you that not one single person on this forum can see any sort of sense in your claims, not even the most loyal Alonso fan can agree with your allegations surely that tells you something about your opinion. So you are now claiming Massa done a slow pitstop not out of jealousy, but was told to by a greater power than Ferrari? Amazing!

Tell me if these great powers were manipulating a champ then why did they give Seb a penalty? Clearly you are just trying to wind members up now with such ridiculous comments, come back when you actually have some facts rather than making up fantasy theories.

There was a time, when had just joined the forum, I suspected you to be an Alonso fan. :lol

[justjesper]

LOL Greig is now a Alonso hater :lol

Now that is just too funny :lol

We can all blame everyone, fact is that Vettel won and we didn't.

[RedRebel40]

There was a time, when had just joined the forum, I suspected you to be an Alonso fan. :lol


LOL Greig is now a Alonso hater :lol

Now that is just too funny :lol

We can all blame everyone, fact is that Vettel won and we didn't.

nah he is just a schumi hater :-D

[Suzie]

My head hurts.

Diego you might want to consider the fact that not everything is a conspiracy.

[Tifosi]

dude how on earth can you know all the details of what goes on at Ferrari? cause the way you look at things implies that you have all the facts...life isn't that simple mate

He starts with "I think...." and then reverse engineers from there :-D

[Greig]

I never changed my mind. You simply don't understand what I write and you are simply mixing the things I say. That is why I say you should stop putting things in my mouth that I never said. Unfortunately, you still keep doing it.

Well, if so, there is something very wrong with you. Because there is no reason for any Ferrari fan to feel angry because of my anti-FIA claims. I can understand some people here don't like I attack Massa. But why people would feel offended by me attacking the FIA, I seriously don't understand.

I have no problem whatsoever with Alguersuari letting Webber pass. Not at all. What I think is problematic is the fact that they are screaming Ferrari are cheaters for what they did in Germany. They are shouting they don't use team orders and they are very honest people. But than they do this, which is a clear team order. Ferrari got a fine for that. When RedBull does it, people don't even speak about it. When Ferrari does it, it is called championship manipulation. When RedBull does it, it was a smart move to do.

As I said before, one of my recommendations for Ferrari is to work closely together with other teams like HRT, Virgin, Force India, ... I would provide them engines at very good prices or even invest money in those teams. And at the end of the season I would use these teams to block all my oponents. RedBull set a very dangerous prescedense. They used a second team to win the title. As a boss of Ferrari I would learn from that by doing the same. But now, I don't work with 1 extra team but with several. If the FIA allows RedBull to do that, why can't Ferrari do that also ? Of course, this will destroy the sport. But I don't care. RedBull is to blame with their smart move. Swapping positions of 2 pilots in the same team isn't such a big deal. This has happened always, though in a smarter way. In Brazil Hamilton and Button were also swapped in a 'smart' way. But swapping interteam is a prescedence that kills the sport. And apparently you support that.

I gave facts, the problem is you don't acknowledge them. Massa lost 1.5 secs in the pits. That is my fact. Explain me how that is possible. Show me your facts. You blame me of showing no facts, but where are your facts ? I also gave several facts of why it is very highly probable several teams were helping Vettel. The problem is that you pretend to not have read them. The FIA is also manipulating constantly. I am not even planning to go into detail about that. If you don't want to realize/see that, that is fine for me. I don't really care too much. In fact, I don't watch F1 anymore as I used too. Once I realized all the manipulations from the FIA, my interest went down sharply. This season I think I have seen less than half of the races. And if F1 continues like this I will probably only watch when it is raining and I am utterly bored.

Firstly you said Massa lost time in the pits on purpose because he is jealous, you can't explain how he lost this time in the pits, you can't give any evidence as to how he knew to lose time in the pits or how much time. You then go on to claim the FIA are part of the fixing, so not only is Massa fixing races then so is the FIA. You can attack the FIA all you like but give some valid reasons for doing so.....claiming they fix races is all fine and well, back it up.

Maybe Jaime just moved without any team input, making it not a team order but his decision, maybe you have radio to suggest he was told to move, I don't know? post it if you do :-) You say we should work close with rival teams so they can block for us, remind us what engine is in the Torro Rosso? oh yeah a Ferrari engine, so clearly that idea does not work and why on earth would you wish to win in such a way?

I have already told you Massa lost time because his stop was slower than Alonso's, and I have already shown you he lost not 1.5 but 0.9 compared to Alonso, the Red Bulls are irrelevant to our pitstops.

[Tifosi]

Firstly you said Massa lost time in the pits on purpose because he is jealous, you can't explain how he lost this time in the pits, you can't give any evidence as to how he knew to lose time in the pits or how much time. You then go on to claim the FIA are part of the fixing, so not only is Massa fixing races then so is the FIA. You can attack the FIA all you like but give some valid reasons for doing so.....claiming they fix races is all fine and well, back it up.

Maybe Jaime just moved without any team input, making it not a team order but his decision, maybe you have radio to suggest he was told to move, I don't know? post it if you do :-) You say we should work close with rival teams so they can block for us, remind us what engine is in the Torro Rosso? oh yeah a Ferrari engine, so clearly that idea does not work and why on earth would you wish to win in such a way?

I have already told you Massa lost time because his stop was slower than Alonso's, and I have already shown you he lost not 1.5 but 0.9 compared to Alonso, the Red Bulls are irrelevant to our pitstops.

but Diego give facts Greig. If you choose not to acknowledge them then that really is your lookout. Challenging the authenticity of and logic behind the facts is really just being a pedant isn't it? When you have the facts, all you need to do is proclaim them.

[Suzie]

I was recently notified that some journalists have the same suspicious but they were threatened to lose their pitpass if they would investigate this. F1 and the FIA is 1 big maffia. They are manipulating championship after championship.

I would like to know more about this please :-)

[mandzipop]

I've got a much better conspiracy theory. Tin foil hat on here as it does sound crazy. Massa might have had tyre warming issues this season. Hence this has not allowed him to be as helpful as he could. My second shocking theory is thay maybe the F10 wasn't the fastest car on the grid.

On to the last race, I have some goodies here. Maybe Webber pitted because he felt his tyres graining. Maybe Massa losing the time to Webber could have something to do with Webber having got the tyres upto speed quicker. Maybe Ferrari did not expect the tyres to come back to them like they eventually did.

Maybe Petrov didn't want Alonso to pass him because Petrov drives for Renault F1 (note not Red Bull), and is desperately trying to keep his seat at Renault. Maybe he was racing his own race and trying to get the most points for his team (that part is not conspiracy it is factually true, I have it from a very reliable source). Maybe Kubica didn't want to let Hamilton past because he wanted to come out with as many points as possible and he could have lost time letting Hamilton past which would have possibly put him behind Petrov, Alonso and Webber which would have cost Renault points.

I know it is an outlandish conspiracy, but it is something to consider.

[siberianlady]

I seriously think we should forget the past now and concentrate on supporting/kicking the team for a great 2011.
WE got the Mondiale going on in Valencia where there is a real party spirit going on, El Dedo wants to drive to the Brandenburger Tor in the friggin snow tomorrow, Bernie got mugged and lost his watch (and maybe got his marbles back).......surely we have more interesting/positive things to talk about than hashing over past events we cannot change! (Sorry- rant over.......):oops

[Ken]

Diego! as much as I would love to believe you are a true fan, I find your posts bewildering and relying more on suposistion or romantic interpretation of vague facts.

This thread has gone on long enough and got no where, has not provided any worthwhile insights into the team or the past racing season.

I think it is time to ignore your typographical monderings here and on other threads, and if everyone else did like wise then possibly you would STOP WINDING US ALL UP ( sadly Greig cant help himself and likes to try and keep the record straight ;-) )

[Poltergeistes]

Nobody at the pitnale but ferrari wanted fernando to win, sorry diego, but that's not massa's fault, you can't possibly be trying to put that blame on him. It wasn't his fault that he had a better start in germany than fernando, then fernando refused to do it the usual way (overtaking) so orders went in after fernando complained.

Its a race for gods sake, you can't just tell every car in front of you to move out of the way, well you can try, but only your team mate under extreme orders will comply and be mocked and humiliate, and still after all that, you are still trying to say felipe didn't do his job in helping fernando? you are still saying that felipe was the one who embarassed ferrari in germany?

Come back to earth friend.

PS half the people you are "accusing" of being simply massa fans are actually alonso fans, and all of them are ferrari fans. don't you forget, felipe doesn't drive for YOUR scuderia ferrari, but he still drives for OUR scuderia ferrari, so please behave, here we try to respect both our drivers equally, here there's no #1 status and second fiddle, theres 2 drivers that we tifosi supports, and more importantly respect.

[Tifosi]

Diego! as much as I would love to believe you are a true fan, I find your posts bewildering and relying more on suposistion or romantic interpretation of vague facts.

This thread has gone on long enough and got no where, has not provided any worthwhile insights into the team or the past racing season.

I think it is time to ignore your typographical monderings here and on other threads, and if everyone else did like wise then possibly you would STOP WINDING US ALL UP ( sadly Greig cant help himself and likes to try and keep the record straight ;-) )

The thing is that there isn't much else to talk about at the moment is there? Also, when you have one person in a thread who constantly repeats themselves and goes against 98% of the other posts in it by not adressing his own flawed suppositions or inconsistancies - no matter how many times they are pointed out to him by multiple posters, they can only be doing it for one of 2 reasons:

1. They seriously believe what they are saying is true but just don't have the ability to debate it logically.

2. They are trolling.

Either way, they can't be taken seriously. Ignored yes. Chastised yes. Taken seriously No. :-)

[Ken]

The thing is that there isn't much else to talk about at the moment is there? Also, when you have one person in a thread who constantly repeats themselves and goes against 98% of the other posts in it by not adressing his own flawed suppositions or inconsistancies - no matter how many times they are pointed out to him by multiple posters, they can only be doing it for one of 2 reasons:

1. They seriously believe what they are saying is true but just don't have the ability to debate it logically.

2. They are trolling.

Either way, they can't be taken seriously. Ignored yes. Chastised yes. Taken seriously No. :-)

So True :-s, but he makes my head hurt, please make him go away :pray

[Diego]

Firstly you said Massa lost time in the pits on purpose because he is jealous, you can't explain how he lost this time in the pits, you can't give any evidence as to how he knew to lose time in the pits or how much time. You then go on to claim the FIA are part of the fixing, so not only is Massa fixing races then so is the FIA. You can attack the FIA all you like but give some valid reasons for doing so.....claiming they fix races is all fine and well, back it up.

Maybe Jaime just moved without any team input, making it not a team order but his decision, maybe you have radio to suggest he was told to move, I don't know? post it if you do :-) You say we should work close with rival teams so they can block for us, remind us what engine is in the Torro Rosso? oh yeah a Ferrari engine, so clearly that idea does not work and why on earth would you wish to win in such a way?

I have already told you Massa lost time because his stop was slower than Alonso's, and I have already shown you he lost not 1.5 but 0.9 compared to Alonso, the Red Bulls are irrelevant to our pitstops.

He still lost a full second. As I already said the 2 McLarens and the 2 RedBulls had a pit time within 0.2 seconds compared to their team mate. I don't recall Massa having problems at the stop. So explain me where he lost 0.9 seconds. I don't have any explaining to do. I see he lost 0.9 secs. You, as his lawyer and protector, how did he lose that amount of time ?

I am not gonna back up anything of the FIA race fixing. I have seen enough and if you still didn't see it yourself it means you don't want to see it. I see things happening and I make deductions. You just wait until the FIA openly writes a press report saying "we are manipulating races for the last 20 years". Unfortunately that is not going to happen. But ey, keep on believing they are running the show fair. If that makes you happy ;).

It doesn't matter whether Jaime went aside because he wanted too. A racing driver should never go aside for anyone else unless he is ordered so by the team. You are making it even worse now. So if a pilot has many friends on the paddock willing to let him pass if he is in a championship fight, you say that is OK ? Well, then lets close our books and go home. Becaue that is not what competition is supposed to be.

[Diego]

What is this about the lack of will of the people here to make others posters express their opinion ? Should I go away because my opinion is different than that of some posters ? If you are a poster that doesn't like my opinion, well just ignore it than. I am not trying to wind up anyone. In fact, some posters here are trying to wind me up by constantly making comments that make me look foolish and ridiculuous. I don't really care about that but I think it would be more classy to react or ignore than to make fun of.

[Greig]

He still lost a full second. As I already said the 2 McLarens and the 2 RedBulls had a pit time within 0.2 seconds compared to their team mate. I don't recall Massa having problems at the stop. So explain me where he lost 0.9 seconds. I don't have any explaining to do. I see he lost 0.9 secs. You, as his lawyer and protector, how did he lose that amount of time ?

I am not gonna back up anything of the FIA race fixing. I have seen enough and if you still didn't see it yourself it means you don't want to see it. I see things happening and I make deductions. You just wait until the FIA openly writes a press report saying "we are manipulating races for the last 20 years". Unfortunately that is not going to happen. But ey, keep on believing they are running the show fair. If that makes you happy ;).

It doesn't matter whether Jaime went aside because he wanted too. A racing driver should never go aside for anyone else unless he is ordered so by the team. You are making it even worse now. So if a pilot has many friends on the paddock willing to let him pass if he is in a championship fight, you say that is OK ? Well, then lets close our books and go home. Becaue that is not what competition is supposed to be.

He lost 0.9 because his stop was slower, nothing more and nothing less if you can't accept that then fine not my problem if you want to make up complete rubbish to attack a Ferrari driver. If you can't back up your FIA claims then no need to mention them as they are a waste of time, just like I could claim you are a Lewis fan from PF1 trying to wind up members here, do I need to back that up, probably not as with each post you make it seems clear you are just on the wind up.

Off course a drivers friend will make it easier for him if it helps him win a title, you would do your best to stop your friend winning I suppose? some friend you are :-D

And the books are already closed because you state the FIA decide it all, so why on earth will drivers being friends make any difference, they are all ordered what to do by the FIA, see the problem is you have posted so much unfounded claims that now with each post you are being hypocritical to your own previous posts, I think its time you gave it up, clearly you are a wind up merchant and just out to get a rise out of members :-)

Thread is done....you don't need a final say, we all know what your reply will be.....

edit: After locking this thread, Diego asked to have his account removed, so I obliged :-)