FIA in new engine mapping clampdown

[Mrs.Domenicali]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494

FIA in new engine mapping clampdown

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, June 21st 2011, 08:26 GMT

Formula 1 teams are to face a further clampdown on engine mapping use from this weekend's European Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the FIA moving to eradicate special qualifying-only settings

Ahead of the effective ban on the off-throttle use of blown diffusers from next month's British Grand Prix, motor racing's governing body has shown it is determined to prevent teams from using any form of clever engine use to help aerodynamic performance.

In a note sent from F1 technical delegate Charlie Whiting to the teams, he made it clear that with immediate effect teams will no longer be allowed to change engine maps between qualifying and the race.

Such a move will effectively prevent teams from running an extreme engine map for qualifying - such as one that produces more exhaust blowing or burns more fuel – and then reverting to a safer setting for the grand prix itself.

One theory surrounding Red Bull Racing's qualifying dominance this year, compared to the fact it has not been so fast in the race, is that the team has been using extreme engine maps in qualifying to boost performance for a single lap.

McLaren's principal race engineer Phil Prew said about his team's theory on Red Bull Racing's form earlier this year: "I think tyre optimisation may be one area, and the use of elaborate engine modes may be another - with the generation of downforce being quite highly influenced with the exhaust flows."

The new directive from the FIA means that any engine mapping setting used in qualifying has to now be used for the start of the race – with the first opportunity to change it now only possible at the first pitstop when a computer could in theory be plugged into the car.

However, such a move would be hugely impractical because of the speed of modern pitstops.

The extreme engine maps that some teams may be using for qualifying would be unusable in the race – because they risk reliability of engines over longer distances and could burn too much fuel.

Although the changes to the regulations coming into force over the next two races will affect all teams, the main focus will be in terms of what impact it has on pace-setters Red Bull Racing.

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said at the Canadian Grand Prix that he believed Silverstone could mark the start of a totally new picture in terms of the world title fight.

"We need to see in Silverstone, what is the real effect of this change in the regulations with regard to the effect of the exhaust," he said.

"Then, we will see really where is the second championship in terms of the level of performance above all in higher downforce tracks."

[Hornet]

I'm surprised they could change the engine mapping at all between qualifying and race day, given that teams are not supposed to change the car's setup between both session.

[Greig]

Don't they just change it via the steering wheel, seems pretty draconian. Wonder how it will affect the fuel saving stages in the race if you can't change the engine map....

[Fyre]

Don't they just change it via the steering wheel, seems pretty draconian. Wonder how it will affect the fuel saving stages in the race if you can't change the engine map....

Yip agreed, I wonder how they are going to distinguish between an "extreme engine mapping" as used for exhaust blowing, and a more subtle engine mapping as used for fuel saving or more aggressive phases of a race. Doesn't make sense that they won't be able to make these changes during a race. Is the driver currently able to make engine mapping changes or is he only able to change fuel mixtures?

[ferrari4life]

very interesting to see what these 2 new changes bring about. hopefully it will even up the field a little and then we can see some proper racing.

[Fiondella]

Seems to me that the single setting engine map clampdown mops up the off throttle exhaust blowing by default since it would not be sensible to select a mapping that includes off throttle due to engine reliability and fuel consumption worries. So the FIA are effectively reducing their time in policing the rule.

[FerrariF60]

Yip agreed, I wonder how they are going to distinguish between an "extreme engine mapping" as used for exhaust blowing, and a more subtle engine mapping as used for fuel saving or more aggressive phases of a race. Doesn't make sense that they won't be able to make these changes during a race. Is the driver currently able to make engine mapping changes or is he only able to change fuel mixtures?

I think currently the driver (in this case red bull, for the argument’s sake) can change engine mappings from the cockpit
As they (vettel) still is able to get a good gap at the start of the race then just able to cruise when he switches to a different engine map.
But from now on it seems that whatever engine map u use in quali, you have to use in the race; so I’m pretty sure they wont’ run the EXTREME engine map in quali anymore as they would have to run that same map in the race and that would put an ENORMOUS amount of pressure and strain on the motor.
So I think we’ll see red fools NOT as quick anymore in quali the 7 or 8 tenths quicker then anybody as we’ve seen so far.

As for fuel mixtures, I think they can still use it during the race, i.e use more or less fuel but this will only be used when you accelerate NOT OFF throttle.

[Hornet]

Don't they just change it via the steering wheel, seems pretty draconian. Wonder how it will affect the fuel saving stages in the race if you can't change the engine map....
Ah, I see.

I'd image the drivers still need to carry sufficient fuel in races before this though, I mean, if say like in Spain, Lewis was constantly pushing Vettel, surely Vettel has to push his car to the finish line and so they need to have sufficient fuel to do that.. Just a guess of course.

[Ken]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494

FIA in new engine mapping clampdown

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, June 21st 2011, 08:26 GMT

Formula 1 teams are to face a further clampdown on engine mapping use from this weekend's European Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the FIA moving to eradicate special qualifying-only settings

Ahead of the effective ban on the off-throttle use of blown diffusers from next month's British Grand Prix, motor racing's governing body has shown it is determined to prevent teams from using any form of clever engine use to help aerodynamic performance.

In a note sent from F1 technical delegate Charlie Whiting to the teams, he made it clear that with immediate effect teams will no longer be allowed to change engine maps between qualifying and the race.

Such a move will effectively prevent teams from running an extreme engine map for qualifying - such as one that produces more exhaust blowing or burns more fuel – and then reverting to a safer setting for the grand prix itself.

One theory surrounding Red Bull Racing's qualifying dominance this year, compared to the fact it has not been so fast in the race, is that the team has been using extreme engine maps in qualifying to boost performance for a single lap.

McLaren's principal race engineer Phil Prew said about his team's theory on Red Bull Racing's form earlier this year: "I think tyre optimisation may be one area, and the use of elaborate engine modes may be another - with the generation of downforce being quite highly influenced with the exhaust flows."

The new directive from the FIA means that any engine mapping setting used in qualifying has to now be used for the start of the race – with the first opportunity to change it now only possible at the first pitstop when a computer could in theory be plugged into the car.

However, such a move would be hugely impractical because of the speed of modern pitstops.

The extreme engine maps that some teams may be using for qualifying would be unusable in the race – because they risk reliability of engines over longer distances and could burn too much fuel.

Although the changes to the regulations coming into force over the next two races will affect all teams, the main focus will be in terms of what impact it has on pace-setters Red Bull Racing.

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said at the Canadian Grand Prix that he believed Silverstone could mark the start of a totally new picture in terms of the world title fight.

"We need to see in Silverstone, what is the real effect of this change in the regulations with regard to the effect of the exhaust," he said.

"Then, we will see really where is the second championship in terms of the level of performance above all in higher downforce tracks."

Surely the FIA have heard of WiFi ??.

How are they gonna police this rule ?, without being able to check the coding in the Computer ???. It could days for the coding to be checked in each car.

Really the FIA gets sillier by the month.

:giveup

[EL NANO]

I agree with this ruling but it will be hard to govern.. Quail should b the fastest car on race mode not an engine trick ... I am no expert but checking each telemetry after the race shouldn't take long if they know wat to look for.. Bring it on I say...

[Greig]

I don't think car's are wifi enabled LOL

plus the ECU is locked

[Fiondella]

They cannot directly change anything on board using telemetry (i.e. using wifi wimax zigbee or any broad spectrum radio interface) they can only recive telemetry data from onboard and therfore instruct driver using voice radio tranmission to change fuel mix brake balance etc... The new ruling would prevent the driver changing engine mapping on the steering wheel

[crewskas]

They could change the mapping in their first pitstop by plugging in a computer, but it will take more seconds...
So I guess, it's one way to use the same setting for the whole race...

[aroutis]

For me this is actually a correct rule. It prevents the teams to tamper with settings during qualify and then change them during the race, and I have the feeling we're in for some surprises come next race..

Interesting times.

[scuderiafan]

how can they enforce this rule though?

the fia can't exactly hack into teams computers and see what they are up to.

[Sha1]

What if you get a blue screen while changing the engine map? Will we see a team lose out on a podium because of an OS crash delaying their stop? :lol

[FerrariF60]

What if you get a blue screen while changing the engine map? Will we see a team lose out on a podium because of an OS crash delaying their stop? :lol

Personally I don’t think any team will take chances and run an EXTREME mapping during quali and then risk it and LOSE a lot of time in the first pit stop to update to a MORE conservative engine mapping.
One because having to run the extreme mapping for however many laps (15-20 until the first pit stop) puts quite a big strain and stress on the engine.
And second of all, they will lose a lot of time and positions during the first pit stop to revert back to another engine map.

Just my opinion, any thoughts??

[Greig]

how can they enforce this rule though?

the fia can't exactly hack into teams computers and see what they are up to.

Just the same as saying how can the FIA see if anyone is running TC or launch control. ECU logs everything.

[scuderiafan]

Just the same as saying how can the FIA see if anyone is running TC or launch control. ECU logs everything.

oh okay. was worried there.

[zuludemon]

The teams are still allowed to change engine maps during the race - I think the pitstop quote is not correct.

The TD says you can not change the map from the moment the car leaves the pitlane in Q1 (ie it has entered parc ferme rules) and the start of the race (ie lap 1)

I think some confusion comes from the fact that teams plug in the laptops after Q and before the Race and upload different maps (or effectively this)

The driver can then change the map as they have before via the steering wheel control.
What it does stop is extreme engine maps which in theory the car can not start on (creates too high temps when parked on the grid for example)

It will effect everyone as they all turn the engines up to 11 in Q3 - I imagine it could make things worse for the lower end of the grid because I think the top teams will now make a compromised map (between current race and quali maps) which is potentially better than the current Q1 map... therefore going faster in Q1 and putting the back closer to the 107 rule.

What happens when the blowing rules come into force from Silverstone will change things again. The TD which governs this states many engine parameters to be looked at target throttle rpm being one of them, fuel cut being another etc... It will change things but to what degree? I dont know.

[Nova]

Guess who will cry the loudest if they lose now??
Years ago, the teams built special engines just for q...
B4 it was like putting a gorilla in your car, now all they have to do is "check your pc"...
What panzies...:-D

[type056]

Can teams use off throttle in Valencia?
Does off throttle need special engine mapping?

[Brakefade]

Can teams use off throttle in Valencia?
Does off throttle need special engine mapping?

Teams can and will run off-throttle mapping for Valencia. They just won't have the extreme engine mapping used in previous GPs for quali. So basically the cars will qualify with a race day engine map.

[Rishu]

Red Bull motorsport advisor Helmut Marko says that the team already has ways to reduce any effect the future bans may have on the RB7.

The FIA has announced that engine mapping changes between qualifying and the race have been outlawed with immediate effect, coming one race before the ban on off-throttle blown diffusers comes in to force. Marko, however, told Servus TV that the team had already reacted to the rulings.

"We would not be Red Bull if we did not already have ideas about how to mitigate the effect (of the ban)," Marko said. (:rotfl)

Despite the FIA having already delayed the ban on off-throttle blown diffusers once after the teams expressed potential difficulties, Marko also said that the ban was an attempt to prevent Red Bull running away with the championship, with other innovations such as the double diffuser in 2009 and F-duct in 2010 not outlawed until the end of the season.

"This time it (the ban) seems to be in a hurry. I would say it is about (the dominance of) Red Bull."

ESPN F1



He is right that FiA is scared of them running away with the Championship, but "We woudn't be RedBull if.............." Lol

[Hornet]

So basically he's admitting to the world that RB is relying heavily on it then

With such big egoistic talks, would be even sweeter if we thrash the RB soon :-)

[EL NANO]

He is right that FiA is scared of them running away with the Championship, but "We woudn't be RedBull if.............." Lol
I think that's a very pretentious thing to say by RB... They think they r a BIG team now... It takes years to prove it in F1

[EL NANO]

I hope RB have red faces in Valencia :lol

[Rishu]

I think that's a very pretentious thing to say by RB... They think they r a BIG team now... It takes years to prove it in F1

Most important word you used is "they" :-)

[Greig]

So basically he's admitting to the world that RB is relying heavily on it then

With such big egoistic talks, would be even sweeter if we thrash the RB soon :-)

Would be sweeter if we beat them without FIA help, will be all too hollow otherwise.

[Mrs.Domenicali]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92500

Renault: Changes to affect all teams

By Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, June 21st 2011, 13:22 GMT

Renault's technical director James Allison says all Formula 1 teams will be forced to change their operation following the news that FIA is to clamp down on engine mapping use from the European Grand Prix.

As reported by AUTOSPORT earlier today, F1 technical delegate Charlie Whiting wrote to all teams to inform them they will no longer be allowed to change engine maps between qualifying and the race from this weekend's grand prix at Valencia.

The move is aimed at stopping teams from running an extreme engine map for qualifying.

That follows on from the announcement that an effective ban on off-throttle use of blown diffusers will be introduced from next month's British Grand Prix.

Although there are suggestions that the changes are aimed particularly at slowing Red Bull Racing down, Allison said on Tuesday that it will affect all teams.

"The FIA's note will cause all teams, whether or not they use a blown floor, to change their operation," said Allison.

"The headline changes for the Silverstone GP are as follows: when the driver lifts his foot fully off the throttle pedal, then the ECU maps must be set up so that the engine [to all intents and purposes] closes the throttle - previously it was possible to configure the engine maps to leave the throttle open and reduce the engine power by other means.

"Furthermore, when the driver lifts fully off the throttle, the ECU maps must be configured to cut off the fuel supply to the engine – this is intended to prevent so called 'hot blowing' where the energy of the exhaust gas is increased by combustion."

Allison, whose team pioneered the radical forward-exit exhausts this year, conceded it was difficult to know how the changes will affect the performance of its car.

"It is not easy to judge the effect of this change on our competitiveness. The loss for each blown floor car will come from two separate effects – how much downforce will you lose and, in addition, how much will the loss of this downforce upset the balance of the car.

"All blown floor cars will lose downforce under braking as a result of these new restrictions. Some teams will lose more and some teams less; it is hard to know exactly what relative loss LRGP will suffer.

"However, it is possible that we will suffer less on the balance shift side of the equation because our forward exit exhausts produce their effect quite near the middle of the car. This means that as the exhaust blow waxes and wanes, it does not really disturb the aero balance of the car too much.

"With a rearward blower, the downforce from the exhaust is all generated at the rear axle. As the new rules reduce the blowing effect on corner entry much more than corner exit, it is possible that the rearward blowers will tend to suffer more nervousness under braking and more understeer on exit as a result of the new restrictions. We will find out in Silverstone."

He also made it clear his team is against changing the rules during the season.

"We would have preferred the status quo to remain for the rest of the season," Allison added.

[raylinds]

Would be sweeter if we beat them without FIA help, will be all too hollow otherwise.

I agree- this is clearly aimed at ending RB dominance. While I agree with the changes, I don't think imposing them mid-season is fair, even if it helps us.

[Rob]

Well, this means no more RBR lean qaulie mapping of thE engine. hope we can get some poles from this weekend. :-D

As long as we start beating them, i dont care.

[Hornet]

Would be sweeter if we beat them without FIA help, will be all too hollow otherwise.
That's true if the FIA's intention was indeed to keep things closer between RB and the other top teams.

Though with that kind of arrogance its hard to feel sorry for them.

[Fyre]

Would be sweeter if we beat them without FIA help, will be all too hollow otherwise.

I agree with you again, and for me it would be sweeter if other teams and the FIA were trying to ban clever tech (or rule interpretations) that Ferrari had thought of...I hate seeing us celebrating that an opponent is getting penalised...wish we could be so dominant and on top of our development that people were trying to penalise us, like we have been in the past.

[ferrari4life]

I agree with you again, and for me it would be sweeter if other teams and the FIA were trying to ban clever tech (or rule interpretations) that Ferrari had thought of...I hate seeing us celebrating that an opponent is getting penalised...wish we could be so dominant and on top of our development that people were trying to penalise us, like we have been in the past.

I clearly remember us coming up with an inovative idea with the flexi wings that were then banned after a few races because it gave us an advantage. All is fair in love and war.

[MaheepFerrari]

I just hope it does not cost Ferrari at all Fingers crossed !

[FerrariF60]

I clearly remember us coming up with an inovative idea with the flexi wings that were then banned after a few races because it gave us an advantage. All is fair in love and war.

i think that was the flexible floor we had back in 2007; as well as a flexible REAR wing that got banned due to VIDEO footage, but the actual wing HAD passed all FIA screwteneering tests.

....all in all, we need some inovative ideeas on our car that others would want to copy, as we were in 2000-2000 era

[Ken]

I agree- this is clearly aimed at ending RB dominance. While I agree with the changes, I don't think imposing them mid-season is fair, even if it helps us.

Completely agree rules should only be changed once a year.

This year its meddling mid season to try and slow down Redbull, it amounts to "Fixing champiomships ". I am not a fan of Redbull but they have developed a hell of a car this year.

So who will it be next year that the rules committee feels the need to slow down for the sake of "Spectator appeal " ?? The only spectators this will appeal too are the great Technically Illiterate who dont care about all the back ground stuff.

:twisted

Flame over

[NJB13]

I think its poor to act this far into the season. CW said they had this view before the season started - that is when they should have acted.
The FiA changed rules to stop it after last year, as soon as they saw RB and Renault trying to circumvent the new rule, and before the first race, that was the time to act.
The behaviour of the FiA, especially at the start of the season IMO leaves their actions and motives under a cloud of suspicion

[scuderiafan]

you just know we will have these Ferrari-FIA hate posts coming in. i can already see some blaming ferrari. :doh

what will it be like if Ferrari do get the advantage? although i do agree that the WDC could be a little tainted.

[ferrari4life]

OK these red-bull idiots are just plain stupid.
Here we have Horner unfazed by the rule chances saying that it will effect all the teams
http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7001526/Horner-unfazed-by-FIA-rule-tweaks

And here we have the ass whisperer Marko claiming that they were done to benefit Ferrari
http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/7002040/Red-Bull-Advisor-Cries-Foul

These 2 need to get on the same page. Its ridiculous the amount of double talk that goes on between the 2 of them

[R Ginart]

Here’s a thought; is this racing or a technology war? Why not get rid of all this crap from having computers run the engine. Why not go back to the way it was in the past, one pedal for throttle and one for brakes. Plain and simple. This way there would not be any controversy about engine mapping. I say get rid of the myriad of things a team and driver can control through use of computers. Come on, is this racing? Does a driver need to be able to control a dozen things on his steering wheel? How many things can a team control through telemetry? Come on this has become a pathetic show of technology, not racing. Racing should be best car, best driver wins; not who was able to skirt the rules best.

[Greig]

Here’s a thought; is this racing or a technology war? Why not get rid of all this crap from having computers run the engine. Why not go back to the way it was in the past, one pedal for throttle and one for brakes. Plain and simple. This way there would not be any controversy about engine mapping. I say get rid of the myriad of things a team and driver can control through use of computers. Come on, is this racing? Does a driver need to be able to control a dozen things on his steering wheel? How many things can a team control through telemetry? Come on this has become a pathetic show of technology, not racing. Racing should be best car, best driver wins; not who was able to skirt the rules best.

That's a whole load of people you are putting out of work :-) F1 has always had technology

[ferrari4life]

That's a whole load of people you are putting out of work :-) F1 has always had technology

they can go work towards inventing an alternate source of fuel.. :-) that way F1 can be considered green too

[Rob]

they can go work towards inventing an alternate source of fuel.. :-) that way F1 can be considered green too

there is one out there which has been raced in ALMS, E85.

[Greig]

they can go work towards inventing an alternate source of fuel.. :-) that way F1 can be considered green too

USA will just take over more places with oil, will be ok :-D

[Rob]

USA will just take over more places with oil, will be ok :-D

:lol

[SilverSpeed]

We just need more balls and need to be more creative then we will be much better.

If you don't try you fail so come on Ferrari!

[i'am back]

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/14687-Clampdown+is+%27big+blow%27+for+Red+Bull+-+Schumacher.html

[R Ginart]

That's a whole load of people you are putting out of work :-) F1 has always had technology Just let me know who Im supposed to cheer and root for. Do I cheer for the tech wizzard that is able map his cars engines to suit each particular track? No thanks!

[Greig]

Just let me know who Im supposed to cheer and root for. Do I cheer for the tech wizzard that is able map his cars engines to suit each particular track? No thanks!

Who do you cheer for then? just the driver? it's a team sport, from the factory staff to the driver in the car they are all playing a part.

I cheer for Ferrari and those that work hard to make our team what it is.

[Ken]

Just let me know who Im supposed to cheer and root for. Do I cheer for the tech wizzard that is able map his cars engines to suit each particular track? No thanks!

Yup Greig is dead right.

F1 or any motor sport is all about how good the machinery is that you give to the driver.

After you have cheered for the driver.
Cheer for the pit crew that got it to the race and man the pit stops.
cheer for the mechanics who set it up for the track
cheer for the guy who designed the car
cheer for the guys who designed and built the engines
cheer for the Aero guys who make it slip through the air and with great down force.
cheer for boffin types who make sure that every part is made from the lightest, strongest and most suitable materials in the thousands of parts.
cheer for electronics guys who make all the telemetry to give the data feed back, and design the computer software so that the driver can change settings at the touch of a button.
cheer for the guy who can get the best out of that engine mapping computer.
cheer for the sponsors and money men who make it all affordable.

And Finally A HUGE cheer for the Tea Ladies who keep the Whole team's moral up :)

See there are loads of people to cheer for and many I havnt mentioned ;-)

[bladeswing]

Who do you cheer for then? just the driver? it's a team sport, from the factory staff to the driver in the car they are all playing a part.

I cheer for Ferrari and those that work hard to make our team what it is.

:thumb i thumbed my eye in agreement, and now its kinda teary

[XXX132]

We need to get with the times. This is 2011 and the age of the microchip. If F1 is meant to be the "pinnacle of motorsport" why would you then expect a series powered by 1970's tech engines? You can ban computers and so on quite easily, but then what?Pedals, points and pushrods?

Drivers may be less important than in days gone by because the technology has made it possible. In the same way a computer flies your 747, not the pilot. It goes hand in hand with progress and there's no going back, only controlled.

The technology makes it possible to have electronic assistance to carry ou tasks faster and better than before. ABS, traction control , EBD etc.. Sure a good driver might be able to get close to matching this performance but with a much higher workload. It would be physically impossible.

The RB device is just another attempt to bend the rules using technology, as any team except Ferrari seem to do. We on the other hand have been quiet of late, probably too scared to try new stuff, after all the problems with flexi floors etc. The new touchy-feely Ferrari of the post -Todt era doesn't have the same bite. I was so pleased to see our rear wing extension. It got banned immediately sure, but the idea that someone came up with it and put it on the car was an encouraging sign by itself.

[xpman]

FIA to Ban Newey and Any designer who shows hes got a Brain and outthinks out smart the FIA :lol:-P

[Brakefade]

If we win the WDC it will be no more tainted than when Mclaren won the 2008 WDC, a year after they had all the blueprints to our car. In fact it won't be even close to that. We've been hit by FIA rule changes in the past to try and slow us down. So how is it okay/fair that the FIA changes the rules to slow us down, but somehow when it comes to RB it's not okay/fair.

[Sempre_Ferrari]

If we win the WDC it will be no more tainted than when Mclaren won the 2008 WDC, a year after they had all the blueprints to our car. In fact it won't be even close to that. We've been hit by FIA rule changes in the past to try and slow us down. So how is it okay/fair that the FIA changes the rules to slow us down, but somehow when it comes to RB it's not okay/fair.

+1000

[Greig]

If we win the WDC it will be no more tainted than when Mclaren won the 2008 WDC, a year after they had all the blueprints to our car. In fact it won't be even close to that. We've been hit by FIA rule changes in the past to try and slow us down. So how is it okay/fair that the FIA changes the rules to slow us down, but somehow when it comes to RB it's not okay/fair.

So you are ok with a tainted win, that's fine. And you will be ok if next season the FIA stop Alonso winning it.....

[Hermann]

So you are ok with a tainted win, that's fine. And you will be ok if next season the FIA stop Alonso winning it.....

I thought they already did that last year.

[Greig]

I thought they already did that last year.

How?

[Brakefade]

So you are ok with a tainted win, that's fine. And you will be ok if next season the FIA stop Alonso winning it.....

That's your opinion. My point was that nobody seems to care about how Mclaren's 2008 championship is a bit questionable, because they did directly cheat. Whereas Ferrari have done nothing. We have no say in the matters of the FIA. So what is Ferrari to do? Simply give up because if they do manage to win this championship, some people think it's tainted? Heck no. All Ferrari can do is play by the rules imposed by the FIA. If the rule changes do benefit us and hurt RB it will not taint any wins by Ferrari, or the WDC if we do manage to win it. Take up your matter about this with the FIA, don't bring down Ferrari's accomplishments this year.

PS the BBC crew just said something very interesting. Having an extreme engine mapping for qualifying and a different one for the race, is essentially having a qualifying car and a race day car, which completely flies in the face of the parc-ferme rules.

[Greig]

I am not putting down Ferrari, we have not won a thing as it happens yet LOL calm down, I would take it up with the FIA but I thought this was a forum for debating such matters, obviously not......lame

And using DRS freely in qual and not in the race is the same, but still DRS is not banned :-)

[Brakefade]

And using DRS freely in qual and not in the race is the same, but still DRS is not banned :-)

No it isn't. DRS is still the same in the race and quali. The teams don't change out the DRS systems, and it's not like the teams have multiple settings for DRS. It's either on or off. The teams are allow to use DRS freely and FP and Qualifying because the FIA doesn't want the front running teams to risk running short gear ratio settings in qualifying to get pole, and then be stuck in a situation in the race where the gears are too short to utilize DRS fully.

[Greig]

No it isn't. DRS is still the same in the race and quali. The teams don't change out the DRS systems, and it's not like the teams have multiple settings for DRS. It's either on or off. The teams are allow to use DRS freely and FP and Qualifying because the FIA doesn't want the front running teams to risk running short gear ratio settings in qualifying to get pole, and then be stuck in a situation in the race where the gears are too short to utilize DRS fully.

DRS can be used anywhere in qual, and in set place during the race, so in effect teams like Red Bull and Mercedes get an advantage in qual from it compared to race. I don't think the gear ratio theory makes much sense?

[Brakefade]

DRS can be used anywhere in qual, and in set place during the race, so in effect teams like Red Bull and Mercedes get an advantage in qual from it compared to race. I don't think the gear ratio theory makes much sense?

Is RB's DRS as effective at passing other cars as Mclaren's or Ferrari's? It's hard to say, because Vettel is always at the front, but I do recall Webber having trouble getting passed other slower cars. RB have designed a front running car. If after Silverstone they find themselves starting from the 2nd or 3rd row, I'm sure they will change that DRS system to better suit race conditions.

The point is that using DRS everywhere in quali and only in one/two spots in the race is not the same as having an extreme quali engine map, and a safe race day map. Have you ever seen engine mapping tools they sell for road cars. Without any physical modifications, you can greatly increase HP/TQ on an engine by simply plugging one of these computers in your car. If you can do that with the family car, imagine what you can do in the extreme world of F1. Computers have become such an integral part of the engines nowadays, that having a quali map and race day map is like having two different engines.

[Greig]

"I think if you look at the previous races, every time in Q3 it looks like they [RB] have done something with their engine mode which has given them the slight upper hand.

"And in the last race, while other people brought a new DRS, Ferrari had a new mode in Q3 which helped them significantly.

"We have had the same mode for a while now and everyone will probably not be using their qualifying modes because their engines would not last, they will use their race mode - and we generally have good race pace so I am hoping that it enables us to be a bit closer in qualifying. Fingers crossed it works for this race."Lewis Hamilton, let's hope we don't fall further behind then.....

[Hornet]

That's what I'm afraid of.

RB aren't the only team using it, Ferrari have their own exhaust design that looks similar to RB, so obviously we too would want to find a way to utilize it before the it was banned.

[Greig]

Scarbs on the new rule changes - http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/valencia-ban-on-engine-map-changes/

[DINO 246]

Here’s a thought; is this racing or a technology war? Why not get rid of all this crap from having computers run the engine. Why not go back to the way it was in the past, one pedal for throttle and one for brakes. Plain and simple. This way there would not be any controversy about engine mapping. I say get rid of the myriad of things a team and driver can control through use of computers. Come on, is this racing? Does a driver need to be able to control a dozen things on his steering wheel? How many things can a team control through telemetry? Come on this has become a pathetic show of technology, not racing. Racing should be best car, best driver wins; not who was able to skirt the rules best.
Well said!:thumb

[Greig]

Well said!:thumb

Watch Nascar :-)

[R Ginart]

Watch Nascar :-) At least with NASCAR the driver is a big part of the results on the track.

[Greig]

At least with NASCAR the driver is a big part of the results on the track.

And so is F1 :-)

[DINO 246]

At least with NASCAR the driver is a big part of the results on the track.

I think your right, too many fans grew up playing with game boys, it would be interesting to see how these current WDC guys compete with the driving talents of those from years before. F1 is starting to look more and more like a video game, especially with these new tracks.

[Greig]

I think your right, too many fans grew up playing with game boys, it would be interesting to see how these current WDC guys compete with the driving talents of those from years before. F1 is starting to look more and more like a video game, especially with these new tracks.

at least they turn right and can run in the wet :-D

[DINO 246]

From the BBC news:Speaking on BBC Radio 5 live, Moss adds that he competed in more dangerous conditions than those which delayed the Canadian Grand Prix and believes motor racing shouldn't feel "safe" as it is a dangerous sport.

They didn't depend on computers back in his day!:-)

[Greig]

From the BBC news:Speaking on BBC Radio 5 live, Moss adds that he competed in more dangerous conditions than those which delayed the Canadian Grand Prix and believes motor racing shouldn't feel "safe" as it is a dangerous sport.

They didn't depend on computers back in his day!:-)

Yeah F1 is too safe, just ask Perez, or Massa....never understood the too safe comments, almost as if some deaths would be good for the sport....no thanks. Not sure how his comments relate to this thread however, just seems another reason for you to put down F1, do you even like F1 at all?

[DINO 246]

Yeah F1 is too safe, just ask Perez, or Massa....never understood the too safe comments, almost as if some deaths would be good for the sport....no thanks. Not sure how his comments relate to this thread however, just seems another reason for you to put down F1, do you even like F1 at all? I'm certainly not happy with the way things have been going with F1 in the last few years, and I believe some older fans would agree. I was under the impression that this was a forum for honest discussion, not the rubber stamping of the opinions of a few. If criticism of what I see wrong in the sport makes me less of a fan in the eyes of some, thats their problem, not mine.

[Greig]

I'm certainly not happy with the way things have been going with F1 in the last few years, and I believe some older fans would agree. I was under the impression that this was a forum for honest discussion, not the rubber stamping of the opinions of a few. If criticism of what I see wrong in the sport makes me less of a fan in the eyes of some, thats their problem, not mine.

What is older fans? and how do you know the age of members here, just curious. Seems nearly every post you make is negative about the sport. Why do you follow a sport you seem to have so little love for?

[Grillo]

The rule should have been ready and working for Barcelona as planned.

But I think agressive engine maps for qualifying were used last season so the FIA should have banned it together with flexi wings for 2011.

I don't like rule changes once the season's started.

[R Ginart]

And so is F1 :-)You're right! Can't argue with you there! Let's see: we have DRS, engine mapping, blown defussers, double defusers, KERS. I can see how the driver is important in F1. Just sit right in to the cockpit and press a button and the car can almost do a record lap by itself.
Oh wait; we need DRS to make passing possible, we need KERS for a HP boost! Yes I see now Greig the driver is very important in F1.

[DINO 246]

You're right! Can't argue with you there! Let's see: we have DRS, engine mapping, blown defussers, double defusers, KERS. I can see how the driver is important in F1. Just sit right in to the cockpit and press a button and the car can almost do a record lap by itself.
Oh wait; we need DRS to make passing possible, we need KERS for a HP boost! Yes I see now Greig the driver is very important in F1.
I don't remember people like Giles or Senna having things like that, but what do I know, I guess I'm not a real fan.

[Greig]

You're right! Can't argue with you there! Let's see: we have DRS, engine mapping, blown defussers, double defusers, KERS. I can see how the driver is important in F1. Just sit right in to the cockpit and press a button and the car can almost do a record lap by itself.
Oh wait; we need DRS to make passing possible, we need KERS for a HP boost! Yes I see now Greig the driver is very important in F1.

Maybe you watch the wrong sport then...F1 has always been about the car and driver, always will be, and I doubt many fans would have it any other way.....

[Greig]

I don't remember people like Giles or Senna having things like that, but what do I know, I guess I'm not a real fan.

What they never had turbo boosts? Senna never had special qualifying engines? yeah course not, they never did....

[Grillo]

Just sit right in to the cockpit and press a button and the car can almost do a record lap by itself.

You're surely an F1 driver, do you mean I could sit at the wheel and the car would do the rest?

Let's be serious, the driver is very important. Maybe not as important as you would like it to be but you can see that most of the times the best car won the championship in F1 history. It doesn't mean the driver isn't important but the car is more important and it always will be.

[Brakefade]

Nascar is like pro wrestling. It's designed to be close and to have back and forth battles all throughout the 500 miles they race.

[aroutis]

Maybe you watch the wrong sport then...F1 has always been about the car and driver, always will be, and I doubt many fans would have it any other way.....The sport HAD always been about the car and the driver and the team. Nowadays it's been FAR more about the car, LESS about the driver.

And if you don't take my word about it, you can ask Alonso, there's someplace a nice video where he's asked about it and he says that he believes that it's more about the car rather than the driver.

Honestly why do you just argue over this? Is the sport the same in regards of the ratio between car and driver say like the Senna days?

[DINO 246]

The sport HAD always been about the car and the driver and the team. Nowadays it's been FAR more about the car, LESS about the driver.

And if you don't take my word about it, you can ask Alonso, there's someplace a nice video where he's asked about it and he says that he believes that it's more about the car rather than the driver.

Honestly why do you just argue over this? Is the sport the same in regards of the ratio between car and driver say like the Senna days?

No, it is not, and reducing the driver factor in racing is not the way to go IMO.

[Greig]

The sport HAD always been about the car and the driver and the team. Nowadays it's been FAR more about the car, LESS about the driver.

And if you don't take my word about it, you can ask Alonso, there's someplace a nice video where he's asked about it and he says that he believes that it's more about the car rather than the driver.

Honestly why do you just argue over this? Is the sport the same in regards of the ratio between car and driver say like the Senna days?

Alonso said 70% car, Senna had the best cars yes he jumped from team to team to have the best car, stop being silly again.

Maybe you would rather have all cars the same? F1 has always had cars better than others, no idea why you can argue that. Enzo would find your comment disgusting, drivers were just puppets for his cars.

[Mrs.Domenicali]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92606

FIA's Charlie Whiting says some teams will lose 0.5s per lap to mapping clampdown

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, June 25th 2011, 10:18 GMT

Formula 1's top teams could be hurt by up to half a second per lap in qualifying due to the clampdown on engine mapping imposed at this weekend's European Grand Prix, reckons the FIA.

With teams bracing themselves for a major change in the way they use blown diffusers over the next two races, FIA race director Charlie Whiting believes the first step in Valencia this weekend may well have an effect on the competitiveness of some teams.

"I think it is impossible for us to quantify it, but I have heard during discussions that the most extreme maps may give you half a second per lap," explained Whiting. "That is what I hear, but it is not something we are concerned with."

Whiting has been surprised about what some teams have been doing with their engine maps - and said that was the motivation for him acting now in both the ECU restriction and the ban on the off-throttle use of blown diffusers from the British GP.

"Everybody is doing this to an extent. Some are doing it more extremely than others and you could argue some are doing it better than others, but everyone is doing it to some degree. There are real extremes out there but I am not at liberty to say how extreme, but I have been quite surprised."

Responding to questions about why the FIA had chosen to act now, Whiting said: "All we are doing is making sure how we think a car should be run legally.

"It is not for us to say whether or not a certain team would be more penalised than others. It just depends how extreme they are, but I have seen evidence of maps from teams that are extremely extreme and it is not confined to one team, I can assure you.

"We know exhaust gases have an influence on aerodynamic performance of the car, we accept that, but the point is that the designs should minimise the effect they have on the car, they should not attempt to use the exhaust for a completely different reason.

"It is a bit like mass dampers, where its first use was fairly benign when it came to aerodynamics. But the more it got developed the more extreme the designs were. There were four, five, six mass dampers on the car, and they were clearly being used for aero reasons. These things escalate as we all know to the point where something has to be done. The mass damper was the same example of the approach we have taken."

He added: "We haven't made any changes to the rules; all we are doing is stopping people breaking the rules."

Whiting said that discussions were still taking place with teams about the extent to which the throttle can remain open from the British GP - with teams requiring different levels pending on the design of their engine.

"There are a few elements that we have not yet finalised," he said. "We have had meetings with a couple of engine manufacturers, as we only want to target this one particular area for what we feel is the illegal use of engine maps for aero reasons.

"We don't want to influence the perfectly legitimate systems on the cars like engine braking for example, we are happy for them to use it but we don't want it to be abused.

"If a driver comes off the throttle, we are saying that the throttles can be 10 per cent opened at 12,000rpm and 20 per cent open at 18,000rpm. One engine manufacturer is asking for a little bit more and for what appear to be genuine reasons.

"We have the ability to go back to 2009 and look at the maps and records we have and everything. We can refer back to those – if they needed 28 per cent of throttle at 18,000rpm back then it is perfectly legitimate – so that would appear to be a perfectly reasonable request. "

Whiting also revealed that if the FIA had not seen through on its decision to clamp down on the issue now, then there would likely have been a protest from a team about the matter.

"I think we got close to a protest in Monaco and I gave the team the assurance that we were going to follow it up and we were not going to give it up," he said. "They were concerned about us changing our mind and letting it go for the rest of the season.

"I have already emphasised to the teams that that option is open to them. Everyone is doing to the same degree the same thing, but we need to be sensible about it and approach it in a pragmatic way to get the situation under control."

[NJB13]

He added: "We haven't made any changes to the rules; all we are doing is stopping people breaking the rules."

Says it all

[Greig]

Says it all

They have changed there ruling says it all, yawn


"For me the regulations do not change anything for the moment," said Massa, when asked if his optimism on the title was boosted by the changes coming for the British GP.

"We will see at Silverstone if we gain anything or not. But it is impossible to be optimistic now because of the regulation change. We don't know how it is going to be and maybe it doesn't change anything. We need to wait and see."

Says it all, Charlie will off course defend their interference with the title, yawn.

[Brakefade]

Parc Ferme regs. Changing engine maps is not allowed. At least we can agree the FIA got that part right.


34) POST QUALIFYING PARC FERMÉ

34.1 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.

Between these times, other than when cars are returned to the parc fermé overnight, the following work may be carried out :

- engines may be started ;

- fuel may be added or removed and a fuel breather fitted ;

- wheels, wheel fasteners and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre pressures checked ;

- spark plugs may be removed in order to carry out an internal engine inspection and cylinder compression checks ;

- permitted heating or cooling devices may be fitted ;

- a jump battery may be connected and on board electrical units may be freely accessed via a physical connection to the car ;

- charging and / or discharging of the KERS energy storage devices ;

- removal of the KERS energy storage devices which, once marked by the FIA technical delegate, may be retained overnight by the team ;

- the main electrical battery and radio batteries may be changed ; - the brake system may be bled ; - engine oil may be drained ; - compressed gases may be drained or added ;

- fluids with a specific gravity less than 1.1 may be drained and/or replenished, however, fluids used for replenishment must conform to the same specification as the original fluid ;

- the aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced ;

- if the FIA technical delegate is satisfied that changes in climatic conditions necessitate alterations to the specification of a car, changes may be made to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts. These changes may be made at any time after the message “CHANGE IN CLIMATIC CONDITIONS” is shown on the timing monitors, from this point the choice of air ducts around the front and rear
brakes and radiator ducts is free and pitot tubes may be covered or uncovered, subject always to compliance with the relevant Technical Regulations.

- bodywork (excluding radiators) may be removed and / or cleaned ;

- cosmetic changes may be made to the bodywork and tape may be added ;

- any part of the car may be cleaned ;

- on board cameras, marshalling system components, timing transponders and any associated equipment may be removed, refitted or checked ;

- any work required by the FIA technical delegate ;

- changes to improve the driver's comfort. In this context anything other than the adjustment of mirrors, seat belts and pedals may only be carried out with the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate. The addition or removal of padding (or similar material) is also permitted but may only be carried out under supervision and, if required by the FIA technical delegate, must be removed before the post-race weighing procedure.

- drinking fluid for the driver may be added at any time, however, the capacity of the container for any such fluid must not exceed 1.5 litres ;

- repair of genuine accident damage ;

- any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.

Any work not listed above may only be undertaken with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a team wishes to fit is similar in mass, inertia and function to the original. Any parts removed will be retained by the FIA.

However, if a team wishes to change a part during the qualifying session and/or on the grid before the start of the race, this may be done without first seeking the permission of the technical delegate, provided it is reasonable for the relevant team to believe permission would be given if there was time to ask and the broken or damaged part remains in full view of the scrutineer assigned to the car at all times.