Todt wants Michelin back in F1

[Rob]

Wednesday 18 July at 09:35 : Jul.18 (GMM)

A German magazine is reporting that FIA president Jean Todt wants Michelin to consider returning to formula one.

Pirelli's three-year contract as the sport's official sole supplier ends next season, with boss Paul Hembery indicating that an extension is not guaranteed.

Replying to a direct question on Twitter about Pirelli's plans for F1 beyond 2013, Hembery said recently: "If they (F1) want us and if the economy stays sane, yes (we will stay)."

Michelin, however, has said previously that it would only consider coming back to F1 - where it competed with Bridgestone between 2001 and 2006 - if the sport ends its current single-supplier rule.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/17682-Todt+wants+Michelin+back+in+F1+-+report.html

[sav_pap]

Indianapolis 2005 ......:oops

[Rob]

Tyre war would mean 'decent tyres' in F1 - Schumacher
Global Motorsport Media

With a single neat soundbite, Michael Schumacher on Wednesday renewed his criticism of Pirelli and called for a new tyre war in F1.
The German publication Auto Bild this week mentioned the rumour that FIA president and Frenchman Jean Todt would like to see Michelin return to the sport.
But the French tyre marque has stated categorically that it would only come back if the rules are changed to allow tyre makers to compete against one another again.
During the FOTA fan's forum in Stuttgart on Wednesday, seven time world champion Schumacher admitted he too would like to see a tyre war once again.

Why?

"Because then we would have decent tyres," the 43-year-old German is quoted as saying.
Earlier this season, Schumacher likened Pirelli's 2012 product to driving "on raw eggs".
The Mercedes driver also admitted he would be open to contesting more than 20 grands prix per season.
"I think there are 34 match days that are watched on television in the (German football) Bundesliga," said Schumacher, "so I think there is still room (in F1)."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tyre-war-would-mean-decent-tyres-in-f1-schumacher

[Greig]

F1 does seem to like going round in circles with rules, so expect a tyre war soon and re-fuelling in race :-D

[Rob]

F1 does seem to like going round in circles with rules, so expect a tyre war soon and re-fuelling in race :-D

:pray lets hope so.

[FrankAlfa]

Pirelli Tires are not the problem here because the tires are very well and exceptionally engineered! The problem is the those running Formula One do not know what direction to go with the sport to have exciting racing! PThose running Formula One told Pirelli outright to "mix things up" and "Uncerainty" to the races by making all kinds of tires that will require different stratagies to get the most out of them. Now after Two years of very varied racing with many winners, Pirelli is being singled out as the "Bad Guy"! That's just wrong and Pirelli should read the writing on the wall and just produce "Bridgestone type tire" and make the racing boring again! Have more tires on hand and have BOTH tire compounds very similar to each other in grip and have both last a long time so the "Not Very Smart Formula One Drivers" who are basicly regular people that can drive a car fast, can't complain! The "Drivers" want the tires to be taken out of the equation which they think will make tire life easier! These drivers (Schumacher) are idiots andare not smart enough to be able to use the tires as an advantage. If there was no variation in the tires then Fernando Alonso would have won at least two more races this year!

So some like Schumacher, want the sport to return to the "Follow the Leader / Boring Racing of the Bridgestone Days"! That is just terrible!
Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[sav_pap]

F1 does seem to like going round in circles with rules, so expect a tyre war soon and re-fuelling in race :-D

Hope for having re-fuelling again. It's just not so good to see cars tranforming from heavy cows to speedy bees during the race.
Or is their absense because of the cost-cutting (less mechanics occupied)?

[Liscia]

If a second tire supplier is allowed again but then will just have to hew to the same lousy FIA specifications
Pirelli builds to then not much is likely to change. Throwing the regulations open and once again allowing
refuelling will again make things interesting in a more natural unmanipulated way.

[Greig]

Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

To be fair, MS is performing pretty well this year compared to Nico.

[sav_pap]

To be fair, MS is performing pretty well this year compared to Nico.

Hm, Greig i think you are missing something here. Nico is 6th with 75 points so far while MS 12th with just 23 points...

[Greig]

Hm, Greig i think you are missing something here. Nico is 6th with 75 points so far while MS 12th with just 23 points...

Point's dont tell the performance, MS has had some pretty bad luck when performing well in the points.

[Hornet]

Pirelli Tires are not the problem here because the tires are very well and exceptionally engineered! The problem is the those running Formula One do not know what direction to go with the sport to have exciting racing! PThose running Formula One told Pirelli outright to "mix things up" and "Uncerainty" to the races by making all kinds of tires that will require different stratagies to get the most out of them. Now after Two years of very varied racing with many winners, Pirelli is being singled out as the "Bad Guy"! That's just wrong and Pirelli should read the writing on the wall and just produce "Bridgestone type tire" and make the racing boring again! Have more tires on hand and have BOTH tire compounds very similar to each other in grip and have both last a long time so the "Not Very Smart Formula One Drivers" who are basicly regular people that can drive a car fast, can't complain! The "Drivers" want the tires to be taken out of the equation which they think will make tire life easier! These drivers (Schumacher) are idiots andare not smart enough to be able to use the tires as an advantage. If there was no variation in the tires then Fernando Alonso would have won at least two more races this year!

So some like Schumacher, want the sport to return to the "Follow the Leader / Boring Racing of the Bridgestone Days"! That is just terrible!
Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

The current tire situation is pointless and boring.
There's absolutely no strategy variation due to the huge drop off.

Your competitor pit for new tires? You are forced to do so because it doesn't matter what tires he takes on, he is guaranteed to be faster than you.

In the past, a new hard tire is still slower than a used soft tires. That's no longer the case. I don't care if you are on hard or soft. You pit the moment your competitors does so because he is going to be faster than you.

So everyone at the front MUST use the same tire strategy. How is that exciting?

[sav_pap]

Point's dont tell the performance, MS has had some pretty bad luck when performing well in the points.

Seems that bad luck for schumacher is coming to an end. Last 2 races he defeated Nico (both finished the race).
Schumacher has 4 DNF due to mechanical failures while Rosberg none, so ultimately you're right.
Rosberg defeated Schu only in Bahrain (both finished the race).

[racingbradley]

Tyre wars!!! bring it on with at least 2 manufacturers back again with the freedom to choose which compounds they bring to each race.:-D
As for refuelling not so sure maybe the jury is out on that one. :-??

[FrankAlfa]

No, Not at all. Each team and driver have tires and fuel lkoad to deal with and play a hand out that they see fit. As we saw at the last race; if Alonso had run his hard tire four more laps longer, he would have not been passed by Webber. If Alnso was able to build a bigger gap to Webber in the middle part of the race he could have kept himself from being passed by Webber late in the race.

You're not correct. This is ALWAYS about Strategy! Fuel Load, Downforce, Tires, etc. all play a part in the Strategy of a race. When to use the Soft tire that have very limited life is up to the teams. The Team and Driver of the race car that best manages all of these variables is the one that wins more often. Simple as that. The tires are just one ingredient in the equation. I ask you, Who Mandates that two different tires be used in the race? The Formula Rules making body. That same body can tell Pirelli to change the direction to take the tires.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[hogo]

Tyre war could not work in modern F1 because cars are way too similar (speed wise) now. So lets say half the field gets to use Michelin and the other half Pirelli. If Michelin does a better job, all their customers will ALWAYS be ahead of cars with Pirelli rubber. Because it's how it is in modern F1, cars are super reliable, engines matter not, aero is so well developed that you no longer can make miracles with it. Would that be more interesting to you? I doubt it.
Oh and MS... he's just mad cos he's not driving for the best team anymore.

[sav_pap]

Bring back 2002 or 2004. It was the best boring seasons of my life.
Preparing for the TV broadcasting, no worry for the results knowing that the 1-2 for Ferrari was almost sure (i think it was 2 or 3 races I slept in the middle of the race).
Now to watch a race you have to be online with your cardiologist, having your pills next to you (just in case), knowing that until the very last moment of the race tires can die and deny you a win or a good result.
So bring back 2002 or 2004!!!!!!

[Ree]

I would welcome a "tyre war" as I'm not keen on the Pirelli. There have been numerous examples this year where the guys up front are racing their do-dahs off only to be passed by other cars that have been bimbling round saving their tyres. Yeah, I guess tyre management is a consideration but this is meant to be racing. Personally, I feel as though F1 is actually turning into a slightly faster version of GP2 and that the current tyre is contributing to this.

[sav_pap]

I would welcome a "tyre war" as I'm not keen on the Pirelli. There have been numerous examples this year where the guys up front are racing their do-dahs off only to be passed by other cars that have been bimbling round saving their tyres. Yeah, I guess tyre management is a consideration but this is meant to be racing. Personally, I feel as though F1 is actually turning into a slightly faster version of GP2 and that the current tyre is contributing to this.

Can't agree more...

[Hornet]

No, Not at all. Each team and driver have tires and fuel lkoad to deal with and play a hand out that they see fit. As we saw at the last race; if Alonso had run his hard tire four more laps longer, he would have not been passed by Webber. If Alnso was able to build a bigger gap to Webber in the middle part of the race he could have kept himself from being passed by Webber late in the race.

You're not correct. This is ALWAYS about Strategy! Fuel Load, Downforce, Tires, etc. all play a part in the Strategy of a race. When to use the Soft tire that have very limited life is up to the teams. The Team and Driver of the race car that best manages all of these variables is the one that wins more often. Simple as that. The tires are just one ingredient in the equation. I ask you, Who Mandates that two different tires be used in the race? The Formula Rules making body. That same body can tell Pirelli to change the direction to take the tires.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Then unless we bring back refueling, we're still stuck with the same problem we have now. No variations.

If we're going to get stuck with that problem, why not make it more durable, and let the driver really push. At least the driver's skill will come into play. Fastest driver will move up ahead, slower driver drops behind.

[sav_pap]

and if the economy stays sane, yes (we will stay)."

It is not sane how can it stay?
Guys, forget about Michelin...:-)

[sv_godspeed]

So some like Schumacher, want the sport to return to the "Follow the Leader / Boring Racing of the Bridgestone Days"! That is just terrible!
Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

sorry but nobody becomes the "greatest" or (less debatable) at least the one in the sport with most WDCs, most wins, most poles, most wins in a season, and most fastest laps by being "an idiot". he's not at his best in his 2nd career but definitely does not deserve to to abused like that!

[SS454]

I do not want to see a tire war again. The tires are by far the biggest performance factor to a vehicle, and with a tire war the companies push daily for the fastest, most durable rubber possible. The increase in speeds would mean the FIA would cause more restrictions to the teams which is a bad thing. Not to mention, the team that is on Michelins would have the best tire, and the team on whatever else would struggle to keep up. And with no testing, if you're on the wrong brand of tire, you're doomed.

[Brakefade]

Tire wars! Tire wars! Tire wars! Tire wars! Tire wars!

And on that note, bring back engine development, and get rid of the rev limiter.

[Giallo 550]

Pirelli Tires are not the problem here because the tires are very well and exceptionally engineered! The problem is the those running Formula One do not know what direction to go with the sport to have exciting racing! PThose running Formula One told Pirelli outright to "mix things up" and "Uncerainty" to the races by making all kinds of tires that will require different stratagies to get the most out of them. Now after Two years of very varied racing with many winners, Pirelli is being singled out as the "Bad Guy"! That's just wrong and Pirelli should read the writing on the wall and just produce "Bridgestone type tire" and make the racing boring again! Have more tires on hand and have BOTH tire compounds very similar to each other in grip and have both last a long time so the "Not Very Smart Formula One Drivers" who are basicly regular people that can drive a car fast, can't complain! The "Drivers" want the tires to be taken out of the equation which they think will make tire life easier! These drivers (Schumacher) are idiots andare not smart enough to be able to use the tires as an advantage. If there was no variation in the tires then Fernando Alonso would have won at least two more races this year!

So some like Schumacher, want the sport to return to the "Follow the Leader / Boring Racing of the Bridgestone Days"! That is just terrible!
Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Wow... Did Schumi pee in your Cheerios this morning or something? :lol

[Red passion]

Wow... Did Schumi pee in your Cheerios this morning or something? :lol

:haha:

[RedRebel40]

So some like Schumacher, want the sport to return to the "Follow the Leader / Boring Racing of the Bridgestone Days"! That is just terrible!
Schumacher is an idiot and trying to find a reason why his results are soooooo poor! Shame on him for blaming Pirelli for his short comings! In the end, it is up to the "Driver" to figure out how best to drive the race car. Some are doing a better job than others and Schumacher is not able to figure the race car out and he is doing poorly! Retire already and be done with it!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

are you OK?

[theforce]

I's a pity that updates are not worth much now in the sense that teams come to a GP trying to predict how the tyres will behave??? Who the hell cares what tyres will behave like, that shouldn't be the point of F1. Teams should have at least 80% knowledge of how the tyres will work so they can focus on updates that are meaningful.

[FrankAlfa]

I'm sorry for the agressive comments but the Drivers must figure out their race cars and Stop complaining about tire and havingt a hissy fit if they can't drive to make the tires last! Many drivers are doing just fine and have a great understanding where the balance point is. Schumachers moaning and belly aching is just that and he no longer has the skills to solve the problem! He no longer has the ability to drive around a problem! The tires are the same for everyone, yet some drivers are actually figuring out what to do to get the most out of them and others have no clue! Schumacher is in the No Clue catagory. His comments are more harm than goo to the sport of Formula One. He is out spoken and he should be more concerned with how he is driving rather than attack an aspect of the sport that Sporting Body mandated and approved. Pirelli are just doing what they want with total free control of what is happening. The FIA and all parties involved with Formula One Have Given Pirelli direct in what they want. Pirelli is merely following orders. Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Hamiton, etc. have all figured out how to ride knife edge. Maybe Schumacher has lost that ability and he is crying that he can't compete.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Red passion]

I'm sorry for the agressive comments but the Drivers must figure out their race cars and Stop complaining about tire and havingt a hissy fit if they can't drive to make the tires last! Many drivers are doing just fine and have a great understanding where the balance point is. Schumachers moaning and belly aching is just that and he no longer has the skills to solve the problem! He no longer has the ability to drive around a problem! The tires are the same for everyone, yet some drivers are actually figuring out what to do to get the most out of them and others have no clue! Schumacher is in the No Clue catagory. His comments are more harm than goo to the sport of Formula One. He is out spoken and he should be more concerned with how he is driving rather than attack an aspect of the sport that Sporting Body mandated and approved. Pirelli are just doing what they want with total free control of what is happening. The FIA and all parties involved with Formula One Have Given Pirelli direct in what they want. Pirelli is merely following orders. Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Hamiton, etc. have all figured out how to ride knife edge. Maybe Schumacher has lost that ability and he is crying that he can't compete.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

don't be complaining & making wise cracks at Schumi, Brembo man is enough to deal with.

[FrankAlfa]

@ SS454,

Why would you say such and absurd statement that the Michelin tires are far better than any one else's????? you just talking nonsense. The current Pirelli Tires are a specific, "Spec" tire to be Engineered to have specific qualities. There is nothing wrong with the Pirelli tires! Look, No One has Ever had a failure do to these Pirelli tires and there is not other tire Manufacturer in formula One to even compare to regarding who is the best. I get upset with people that say things with no valid reason to support what they say. Michelin has been many years out of the sport and they to will have to re-learn the sport just as Pirelli did. People have to remember that Pirelli are making amazingly Engineered tires to a very specific task. We are seeing no variation in tires being used from one team to the other and every one has a very even playing field to work from. I liken it to NASCAR or IRL Racing with a Spec tire which everyone uses. I Formula One the only issue is the FIA and the Formula One Ruling Body have mandated that all teams must use Two (2) Different tire compounds in the race. This is the real bone of contention to be picked!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Hornet]

Drivers all want a real tires that is durable and high performance. Not a circus tires.

I don't see how we can say a tire is good if it randomly falls off the cliff, have horrible lifespan, and makes no difference between soft and hards.

Bridgestone and Michelin have had hundreds thousands of Km of experience to build great F1 tires. Its absurd to think that Pirelli can jump on board and suddenly make better tires. Remember, competition drives advancement.

The lack of competition means Pirelli can be complacent. What improvement have they done lately? I don't recall them aggressively testing new compounds to improve.

[hogo]

Hornet I thought you are smarter than this :(

Also I will quite FrankAlfa for he's speaking the truth:

People have to remember that Pirelli are making amazingly Engineered tires to a very specific task.
and

I Formula One the only issue is the FIA and the Formula One Ruling Body have mandated that all teams must use Two (2) Different tire compounds in the race. This is the real bone of contention to be picked!

[Hornet]

Hornet I thought you are smarter than this :(

Also I will quite FrankAlfa for he's speaking the truth:

and
Yes I saw that perfectly fine.

But how can you claim Pirelli tires are great when they are not pushing the way B'stone and Mics did? There is no competition, and so what Pirelli is doing right now is just telling everyone to "live with it". There's no need to improve the performance and durability. Pirelli dont even have the amount of experience Mics and B'stone have from the years they do thousands of KM of testing, EACH SEASON!:-E

So what evidence do you have to say that Pirelli tires are amazingly engineered? Their performance certainly isn't reflecting that.

[sav_pap]

Truth is that losing 1st place (and win) in a GP (Nando Silverstone 2012) due to the tires, is not the best thing in the world (and this is not the only incident or the last).
This sudden death of the tires is a headache for the drivers and the teams and if there could be a way to ask for their opinion I'm sure that many of them would be against the way that these Pirellis fade.

Situation is that FIA wanted drama involved in the races and they have it now.
For us as fans, I have to say that others like drama others not, so it's absolutely subjective.

[hogo]

To put it simply, FIA doesn't want tyre that is as durable as that from boring Bridgestone/Michelin days. I and many fans don't want that either. I rarely agree with what FIA is doing, but in this case they made the correct change. What could they improve upon is let teams use as many sets of tyres as they want, or don't force them to use 2 different sets per race. Maybe then MS and alike would whine less.

[Hornet]

To put it simply, FIA doesn't want tyre that is as durable as that from boring Bridgestone/Michelin days. I and many fans don't want that either. I rarely agree with what FIA is doing, but in this case they made the correct change. What could they improve upon is let teams use as many sets of tyres as they want, or don't force them to use 2 different sets per race. Maybe then MS and alike would whine less.
That has got nothing to do with engineering or quality.
That's making crap intentionally, still crap however you look at it.

Keep in mind that racers want racing, not American idol esque entertainment. :-)

[hogo]

That has got nothing to do with engineering or quality.
That's making crap intentionally, still crap however you look at it.
If crap makes races exciting, I wouldn't call that thing a crap. Also as FrankAlfa said already, not a single tyre failed this year, therefor they are safe and engineered very well.


Keep in mind that racers want racing, not American idol esque entertainment. :-)
It's quite obvious that you want old boring races to comeback. Just know this, that racing would be even more boring cos F1 cars are way more reliable now.

[aroutis]

If they really want F1 to get excited they should allow for both engine and tyre wars..

[sav_pap]

If they really want F1 to get excited they should allow for both engine and tyre wars..

That could destroy their cost cutting race...

[FrankAlfa]

The Pirelli Tires are not Crap! The tires are very intellegently Engineered and have very "Controled Degradation"! This is all a result of what the FIA want from them. Think of Pirelli as a Pure Engineering company and have produced what the client has asked for!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Hornet]

It's quite obvious that you want old boring races to comeback. Just know this, that racing would be even more boring cos F1 cars are way more reliable now.

Its a sports. I want F1 to stay true to a proper sporting spirit.

You cannot artificially manipulate a sport just to make it exciting.

[aroutis]

That could destroy their cost cutting race...I know. But just imagine, how more ... aggressive a championship would be if you had both tyres and engine wars, how many variables added.

[aroutis]

Its a sports. I want F1 to stay true to a proper sporting spirit.

You cannot artificially manipulate a sport just to make it exciting.What he said.

I want RACING. I don't want tyres to add a variable to racing, that's not racing.

[Tifoso]

What he said.

I want RACING. I don't want tyres to add a variable to racing, that's not racing.

By that argument, F1 should go to a one car spec.

I liked the tire wars, TBH. The top teams are too close to each other now. It's OK now, because we have a driving genius in Alonso, but it would suck if we had a "not the top driver" driver.

To sum up :-D: I really like the idea of 2 tire suppliers :-)

[Tifoso]

F1 does seem to like going round in circles with rules, so expect a tyre war soon and re-fuelling in race :-D

Man I hope so. :-)

[Liscia]

Pirelli are more than capable of making good tires-the FIA is just standing in their way with their contrived rules and
intentionally weak specifications. FrankAlfa's well-described knife-edge tire performance cut-off has cost
FA two wins so far this year. DRAT!!!

[aroutis]

By that argument, F1 should go to a one car spec.

I liked the tire wars, TBH. The top teams are too close to each other now. It's OK now, because we have a driving genius in Alonso, but it would suck if we had a "not the top driver" driver.

To sum up :-D: I really like the idea of 2 tire suppliers :-)
If I wanted one car spec, I wouldn't want engine wars :P hehe
Quite the contrary, I would prefer less aero wars if possible but more tyre and engine wars. It is because the engines are frozen and pretty much the same (more or less), all attention has turned to aero and FiA has been trying to force a variable into tyres so they make the championship more ... i dunno, amusing? spice it up? You name it.

I don't care if some people like this, but it's not racing. It' s gambling, yes, but not racing.

[Tifoso]

Ah, OK. We agree, then. My apologies :-s

It is ridiculous that this artificial aero war has produced the ugliest F1 cars (including ours) that I have ever seen.

[Tifoso]

Ah, OK. We agree, then. My apologies :-s

It is ridiculous that this artificial aero war has produced the ugliest F1 cars (including ours) that I have ever seen.

[Nova]

Hm, Greig i think you are missing something here. Nico is 6th with 75 points so far while MS 12th with just 23 points...

Huh? Hmm, lets see...how many wdc's...how many wcc's for Ferrari...
He deserves all the respect there is. And besides, he's right..just that no one else will say it.

[Nova]

If I wanted one car spec, I wouldn't want engine wars :P hehe
Quite the contrary, I would prefer less aero wars if possible but more tyre and engine wars. It is because the engines are frozen and pretty much the same (more or less), all attention has turned to aero and FiA has been trying to force a variable into tyres so they make the championship more ... i dunno, amusing? spice it up? You name it.

I don't care if some people like this, but it's not racing. It' s gambling, yes, but not racing.

Lottsa passing, but yet I find myself bored with it..that same old excitement on race morning just aint there.
The rules elstinko...

[brembo man]

There were no Pirelli tyre complaints fron the chin when he took Pole pos.

[FrankAlfa]

People have to stop living in the past regarding Schumacher. Yes he won many titlles but that was years ago. He is the one making noise now and it is his words now that I and others respond to. We are talking about right now and what he is talking about now. He crashed yesterday because he lost concentration! THe guy is not the same guy he was nor does he have an all winning Ferrari Race Car!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[sav_pap]

THe guy is not the same guy he was

Just exactly what Luca D said when he (chin) signed for Mercedes.

[brembo man]

People have to stop living in the past regarding Schumacher. Yes he won many titlles but that was years ago. He is the one making noise now and it is his words now that I and others respond to. We are talking about right now and what he is talking about now. He crashed yesterday because he lost concentration! THe guy is not the same guy he was nor does he have an all winning Ferrari Race Car!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Hey Frank, stop beating me to it!!! :rotfl No truer words were ever spoken. I can't believe someone else believes the Ferrari he was driving had something to do with the chin's winning.It wasn't all him and Todt. He's now with a German speaking team, a German speaking car, and throw in Ross . He can't keep his ride in one piece, Nico has a few well deserved points on the boy, even though Nicos on Pirellis also. I truly wish him a safe journey to the end of the year. The boys playing with fire on the track in his condition cocentration wise.

[FrankAlfa]

Thank you brembo man. I am glad I am not the only one seeing the obvious. You make a very good point that Schumacer had a Team Built around him to taylor a race car superior to any other race car at the time. So Schumacher had the Best equipment in the grid and that was the Biggest Factor in he being so successful and gaining so many records. In my opinion, Schumacher was an Excellent "Pilot" to bring home the wins but Byrne, Martinelli, Todt, Brawn and the rest of the Engineering Staff @ the Ferrari Team at the time, were the real people that won those titles for Ferrari. In the end the driver was just the pilot.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Rob]

Pirelli keen to stay in F1
Tyre supplier want to stay on after current deal expires
By William Esler. Last Updated: August 8, 2012 10:21am

Pirelli are keen to stay in Formula 1 as the sole tyre supplier after their current deal expires at the end of the 2013 season.

The Italian company joined F1 in 2011 following Bridgestone's withdrawal and were tasked with creating unpredictable tyres, in an attempt to increase overtaking.

While Pirelli have gained much support for what they have done, the teams have found the characteristics of this season's tyres in particular hard to predict.

That has led to criticism from some drivers, while rival manufacturers have used the high degradation to mock Pirelli's road tyres.

Despite this, Motorsport Director Paul Hembery says the company would like to stay in F1.

"We need to have a decision from the sport by June of next year, that's the closing date, although that's very late and in reality I think we need an indication before the end of this year," he told ESPN.

Vision

"If the sport would like us to continue and if the overall conditions remain competitive and the sport has the vision that we think it has going forwards then it remains an attractive proposition for Pirelli.

"We see great benefit in a sport that is genuinely global - in fact you struggle to think of any that are genuinely global every year.

"F1 is a unique proposition from that point of view and that appeals to us as we're growing in regions like Asia and in countries like Russia and the USA. There seems to be a considerable effort from the organisers and the promoters to finally get the USA sorted and back on the map.

"These are all areas where we want to be seen to be present as a business, so it has a good fit with our business plan.

"The board at the moment are very happy, but of course things could change, the rules could change, costs might change substantially and those are all question marks that you always have to review.

"So when and if the sport wants us to continue and says it is happy with what we are doing, then we'll look at how we come to an agreement and if it makes sense and the return is still in line with the investment then we will be happy to go on."

Costs

Tyre war

Sky Sports reported last week that Pirelli were opposed to a tyre war in F1 and Hembery confirmed that although such competition may push the boundaries of engineering, the financial costs were not viable.

"Are we for or against it? There are different points of view in the company," he added.

"If I put my engineering hat on then yes, let's do it, it's good fun. But if you look at it from a cost/benefit analysis and how you convey winning against another competitor then it's almost impossible.

"As for the teams themselves, they recognise the cost increases when there is a tyre competition. If people today say it's difficult mastering the tyres and that it is a big question mark then if you have a tyre competition they will spend a huge amount of money trying to maximise the performance advantage of an individual tyre.

"Things go in waves and maybe there will be a point in time when there is that stimulation that the teams would like, but there is no appetite for that at the moment.

"Of course, tyres are out of their control and that is something that I'm sure they don't like, because if you're a competing team you at least want the same material with something as critical as the tyre as the next team. If you haven't got that then you are really out of control of what you are doing as a team."

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/7973025/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Ferrari2183]

I'm also getting tired with regard the constant griping about tyres... (Pun intended)

As FrankAlfa said, I think it is time the FIA get serious on what direction they want to take and while they're at it they should remove the dumb "both compound in a GP rule." Let the tyre manufacturer make the tyres and let the teams decide how they intend on using them for a GP. Right now, as the teams are becoming more accustomed to the Pirelli's we're seeing strategy convergence once again.

The best way to ensure different strategies played out at any Grand Prix is to allow the teams tyre freedom. If they want to do an entire Grand Prix on a set of hards then let them attempt that while some others might try one stopping with the medium and other might even use the fastest tyre and 2 - 3 stop.

I hate the current tyre rules, although I think Pirelli has done an excellent job with more marginal tyres.

PS. Please bring back qualifying tyres as well.

[hakanabi]

Bring back 2002 or 2004. It was the best boring seasons of my life.
Preparing for the TV broadcasting, no worry for the results knowing that the 1-2 for Ferrari was almost sure (i think it was 2 or 3 races I slept in the middle of the race).
Now to watch a race you have to be online with your cardiologist, having your pills next to you (just in case), knowing that until the very last moment of the race tires can die and deny you a win or a good result.
So bring back 2002 or 2004!!!!!!
+1:lol

[Rob]

I'm also getting tired with regard the constant griping about tyres... (Pun intended)

As FrankAlfa said, I think it is time the FIA get serious on what direction they want to take and while they're at it they should remove the dumb "both compound in a GP rule." Let the tyre manufacturer make the tyres and let the teams decide how they intend on using them for a GP. Right now, as the teams are becoming more accustomed to the Pirelli's we're seeing strategy convergence once again.

The best way to ensure different strategies played out at any Grand Prix is to allow the teams tyre freedom. If they want to do an entire Grand Prix on a set of hards then let them attempt that while some others might try one stopping with the medium and other might even use the fastest tyre and 2 - 3 stop.

I hate the current tyre rules, although I think Pirelli has done an excellent job with more marginal tyres.

PS. Please bring back qualifying tyres as well.

+1 about giving the teams freedom on what tyres to run for the Grand Prix.

[brembo man]

I remember Ralph almost bought it at Indy, turn 13, his michelins gave way. I also was there for the 8 car race. I hope Pirelli stays with F1. Just tweak the rules to less insane rules and all will be well tire wise. Let Todt rule that the chin can use a different tire , because he's great.

[Hornet]

Pirelli would have been destroyed by Mics or B'stone in a tire war due to their lack of experience with modern F1, which is probably the real reason they are afraid of a tire war :-G

[XXX132]

Yes I saw that perfectly fine.

So what evidence do you have to say that Pirelli tires are amazingly engineered? Their performance certainly isn't reflecting that.

They've finished 1-2-3 in every race this season ;)

The Pirellis are being built that way because it's what they were asked for. To the purists they may make the racing seem artificial, as does DRS. The drivers probably hate them for the same reasson, but it's all about the money kids. Getting a few more non-F1 fans who have a crappy-reality-tv-show mentaility, puts money in the pockets of the same bitching drivers.

Money talks and F1 is no longer the preserve of a handful of eccentric gentlemen racers. The drivers don't decide the rules, the sponsors do.

[Corey]

No I don't want this to happen.

The grid will be divided into 2 groups of competition if one tyre brand outperforms the other. Teams won't be able to catch up with competitors no matter how much do they develop their cars because the tyres just aren't working out. Now that everyone uses Pirelli it stabilizes the group and the only focus of attention for everyone will be to keep improving their cars. Teams don't have to worry about the tyres they have against other people. And also working with the tyre brand to up the game of the tyre itself means more work to do.

But if the entire grid switches to Michelin and Pirelli is kicked out of the door then that I don't mind.

[FrankAlfa]

@ Hornet and others,

It is ABSURD to think in this moden age and with so much racing experience in all different forms of racing that Pirelli would have any trouble being at the same level and go toe to toe with Michelin and Bridgestone! Pirelli have done a wonderful job of providing a "Specific" Control Tire at the "REQEUST and SPECIFICATIONS" estabished and mandated by the FIA! Pirelli have provided VERY CONSISTANT tires with NO FAILURES and Very Safe dynamics. Further, Pirelli has provided BETTER TIRES that Bridgestone did in that they have introduced specific ENGINEERING Dynamics to their tires as a very controled way to force the drivers to show their individual driving skills!

Pirelli is one the World's Leading Tire Producers and for any one to make such rediculious statements that "Pirelli would have been destroyed by Mics or B'stone in a tire war due to their lack of experience with modern F1, which is probably the real reason they are afraid of a tire war" is just fololish, baseless, non-factual, bias talk!

Pirelli is the control tire in many motor sports! Pirelli tire beat Michelin handily in World Rally Championship for many years and it was Michelin that failure after failure of their tires in Rally competition and we banned for a while. Pirelli left World Rally Championship to be the control tire in Formula One. Pirelli also has the flexible Engineering Technology that other tire companies lack to make composition of their tires rapidly with their Patented Engineering Technology that other tire companies don't have!

So you see those with a certain perception of the truth should be better informed and not make such quick, bias judgements!

Pirelli is the tire company that STARTED the Entire Performance Business back in the 70's with the P7 Tire! Study your History and learn the truth! Pirelli do not want a tire war because spending would go out of control, AGAIN and serve no purpose! This is the age of Green Technology and LEEDS accountability.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!

[Dino]

The situation is allready a bit complicated as it is with one make of rubber.
Cars are reacting differently with air/track tempretures at every race weekend.
Introducing another variable now will only confuse the teams and drivers even more.
Anyway F1 can't afford to go trough this again
''Posted 12/14/2005
Michelin to opt out of Formula One after 2006
By Angela Doland, The Associated Press
PARIS — French tire maker Michelin said Wednesday it was pulling out of Formula One after the 2006 season, leaving Japanese-owned Bridgestone as the sport's only tire supplier. Michelin's future in F1 had been in doubt since all seven of the French manufacturer's two-car teams pulled out of the race at Indianapolis on June 19 because of concerns over the safety of the tires. Only six of 20 F1 cars — all equipped with Bridgestone tires — raced that day.
Only six cars ran in that race, all equipped with Bridgestone tires.

[Hornet]

@ Hornet and others,

It is ABSURD to think in this moden age and with so much racing experience in all different forms of racing that Pirelli would have any trouble being at the same level and go toe to toe with Michelin and Bridgestone! Pirelli have done a wonderful job of providing a "Specific" Control Tire at the "REQEUST and SPECIFICATIONS" estabished and mandated by the FIA! Pirelli have provided VERY CONSISTANT tires with NO FAILURES and Very Safe dynamics. Further, Pirelli has provided BETTER TIRES that Bridgestone did in that they have introduced specific ENGINEERING Dynamics to their tires as a very controled way to force the drivers to show their individual driving skills!

Pirelli is one the World's Leading Tire Producers and for any one to make such rediculious statements that "Pirelli would have been destroyed by Mics or B'stone in a tire war due to their lack of experience with modern F1, which is probably the real reason they are afraid of a tire war" is just fololish, baseless, non-factual, bias talk!

Pirelli is the control tire in many motor sports! Pirelli tire beat Michelin handily in World Rally Championship for many years and it was Michelin that failure after failure of their tires in Rally competition and we banned for a while. Pirelli left World Rally Championship to be the control tire in Formula One. Pirelli also has the flexible Engineering Technology that other tire companies lack to make composition of their tires rapidly with their Patented Engineering Technology that other tire companies don't have!

So you see those with a certain perception of the truth should be better informed and not make such quick, bias judgements!

Pirelli is the tire company that STARTED the Entire Performance Business back in the 70's with the P7 Tire! Study your History and learn the truth! Pirelli do not want a tire war because spending would go out of control, AGAIN and serve no purpose! This is the age of Green Technology and LEEDS accountability.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!

Yes because rally tire is the same as Formula 1 tires. :-)You are beginning to sound like a Pirelli marketing rep

Mics and B'stone did many thousands upon thousands of Km of testing during their active days in Formula 1. Everytime the team go out there and test for several days, a majority of the program were to test the tires.

The tire requirement in Formula 1 is very different from other racing series, they are developed specifically for F1. They did not do those expensive testing just for kicks. And Pirelli do not have those experience. I don't care how many years they have been making tires, they do not have any experience in Formula 1 which is a whole different world.

And hypothetically speaking, even if you want to believe that, that somehow Pirelli's experience in other motorsports can magically translate to F1, they still do not have enough testing simply because other series only test a fraction of what Formula 1 does back when testing was unlimited.

Tell me, which other racing series test as much as F1?

The amount of data Mics and B'stone gain in F1 is probably more than Pirelli's entire career in autoracing.

[FrankAlfa]

From an Engineering point of view, Formula One is no different to any other Road Racing Series. It is still about tire Construction & Rubber Compounds. Whether it is Formula One, Road Racing in a LeMans Series, World Superbike or Rally Racing, the dynamic of application is the same. You Design, Engineer and Construct a tire to meet a certain set of variables for that racing series. My point is that Pirelli has logged more than enough miles to FULLY understand the dynamics of many Motor Racing Series for the past 60+ years. It is foolish to think that a tire company already in Formula for a few years now and with equal engineering capacity as its competitors, can not compete with them. You also have to remember that Michelin have been out of Formula One for quite a while now and would have a very steep learning curve to overcome. As far as teating goes, Pirelli have the advantage of having some 12 teams and 18+ races to test their tires plus the testing days! No, I think it a bit inaccutate to say that Pirelli will not be competitive with Michelin or Bridgestone.

What we have in Formula One is a "Spec" tire that has been made to a certain criteria set by the FIA. Pirelli has met the demand set by the FIA and we have race that has much more uncertainy as to who will win races. The Sport has shifted from a purely who has the best Race Car to more of a measure of Driver Skills sport. The tires have been made to be a certain way because the FIA has demanded certain Engineering Dynamics be built into the tires such as specific grip, wear rates and mandate to use different hard & soft tires in the same race. This above all else has shuffled the deck and made these race real wild cards. The Team and Driver that best understands this Dynamic is the one with the winning form. If the FIA told Pirelli to do away with the use of one Primary Compound and one Option Compound in a race then things would be back to normal again! This is the only issue different from the past.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[FrankAlfa]

By the way, do you know that Pirelli started making tires in 1872 and are older than Michelin, Bridgestone & Goodyear!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[brembo man]

Just get an interview with Ralph, then decide if Michelin shoud be back in F1. By the way I did get a free ticket for Indy the next season after the 8 car race from Michelin. Maybe they should come back!:rotfl

[Rob]

Just get an interview with Ralph, then decide if Michelin shoud be back in F1. By the way I did get a free ticket for Indy the next season after the 8 car race from Michelin. Maybe they should come back!:rotfl

You dont think that they learnt from the failures in 2005?

[brembo man]

They should have been more well learnt in 05. They were the F1 choice of tires. It was Ralphs side wall of the tire that gave way, nothing to do with his driving. Then the big first time ever bail out . Ya everybody deserves a second chance, but Pirelli doesn't deserved to get booted, there's no reason. There just following orders. If they messed up like Michelin did , only then should they get kicked out.

[Rob]

Michelin didnt leave (kicked out) just because they had couple failures. They left because FIA wanted single supplier and Michelin would of stayed, and was asking for the wheels to go upto 19inches. Same as their Enduro tyres on the LMP1s. Not saying boot Pirelli, iam? just bring in another firm. Racing has been good. Call me purist, but like seeing tyres last bit longer and have a bigger working window. Pirelli got too narrow working window.

[Ferrari2183]

Starting a tyre war is just going to escalate costs and it might be counter productive as well. A tyre war involves lots of changes to the compounds over a season and I don't see it working with the current testing regulations.

Anyway, Pirelli is willing to supply qualifying tyres as well as letting teams choose their preferred compounds for a GP. It is up to FIA now.

[FrankAlfa]

@ Ferrari2183,

+1 You are 110% correct! These are the only issue to deal with regarding tires! The FIA have to decide the direction!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Stormsearcher]

i dont care if they have tire wars or refeuling back or whatever.... its a matter of adaptability on part of the the drivers and in someways the car too... but what we really want back is TESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... we want testing back. Mid season, before season, post season... everything. :-)

[killer]

Someone enlighten me here:

I get "controlled degradation", "consistency", and "delivering to customer-spec". What I don't get is why the drivers complain about the tyres going off a cliff after a certain point, on certain circuits. That's certainly neither of the first 2 things... and if it were the last thing, isn't this a bit too much artificially affecting the outcome of races?

But on topic, I tend to go with Stormsearcher. A lot more testing maybe the easiest way to go about things.

[Ferrari2183]

No tyre is going to perform in the same manner on different circuits. I don't know if controlled degradation is the right word to use but a degradation variable had to be established in Formula 1. In 2010 we had drivers doing a complete grand prix on a set of soft tyres, only stopping on the penultimate lap to change them, with performance not suffering.

[killer]

No tyre is going to perform in the same manner on different circuits. I don't know if controlled degradation is the right word to use but a degradation variable had to be established in Formula 1. In 2010 we had drivers doing a complete grand prix on a set of soft tyres, only stopping on the penultimate lap to change them, with performance not suffering.

OK so it's fair at this point to say that Pirelli at least have to look at consistency (which I think is what the drivers want more than grip)?

[Hornet]

No tyre is going to perform in the same manner on different circuits. I don't know if controlled degradation is the right word to use but a degradation variable had to be established in Formula 1. In 2010 we had drivers doing a complete grand prix on a set of soft tyres, only stopping on the penultimate lap to change them, with performance not suffering.

Pirelli's problem is that they drop off the cliff out of a sudden. There's no reason why a tire should behave like that.

If you feel the tire's lifespan is too long, you can always adjust the performance - lifespan ratio to favor more performance, making them faster but have a higher degradation rate.

Performance falling off the cliff has got nothing to do with that. Its just idiotic.

[Ferrari2183]

Pirelli's problem is that they drop off the cliff out of a sudden. There's no reason why a tire should behave like that.

If you feel the tire's lifespan is too long, you can always adjust the performance - lifespan ratio to favor more performance, making them faster but have a higher degradation rate.

Performance falling off the cliff has got nothing to do with that. Its just idiotic.
On any given day both car and tyre have a performance ceiling and no amount of adjustments will increase that. With regards to falling off a cliff, where there is degradation there will be a point where the tyre just does not work anymore. You cannot have it both ways... What's idiotic is expecting the teams to adjust their cars to cause more degradation because the tyre is so robust. Makes no sense.

I think you guys want Bridgestone level of performance but that is not going to happen as Pirelli have been mandated to create these tyres and it is a symptom of my favourite driver is not doing so well with these tyres.

[FrankAlfa]

@ Ferrari2183,

+1 Very Well Said! Pirelli is following the FIA's Direction to the Tee and they have done a Fantastic Job at it! No Failures and no uneven, inconsistant behavior of the tires from team to team. Pirelli has followed the directive from the FIA to make a specific kind of tire, which they have done. It is the FIA we must have a gripe wit, NOT PIRELLI! These tire have a fixed window of usage then the tire forces the driver to have to make a change. In contrast, Bridgestone made a purely long duration tire and we saw "follow the leader racing". Michelin on the other hand, before the sole Bridgestone era, made very extreme tires in construction and led to a very "Unsafe / Dangerous Tire" with many failures which is exactly what you DON'T want in any motor sport! Lastly, it is now up to the Drivers and the Engineers to get the most out of the Pirelli Tires. Alonso seems to be the best at it so far.

Ciao.

Fora Ferrari!!!!!

[Hornet]

On any given day both car and tyre have a performance ceiling and no amount of adjustments will increase that. With regards to falling off a cliff, where there is degradation there will be a point where the tyre just does not work anymore. You cannot have it both ways... What's idiotic is expecting the teams to adjust their cars to cause more degradation because the tyre is so robust. Makes no sense.

I think you guys want Bridgestone level of performance but that is not going to happen as Pirelli have been mandated to create these tyres and it is a symptom of my favourite driver is not doing so well with these tyres.

Traditionally, the tire gradually drops off in performance, rather than simply turning itself off.

This is fact, its been done before, its not exactly magic. Every previous manufacturer has done this before, except for Pirelli. What gives?

Sure, if you consider the rubber layers completely worn off as a sharp drop off, then you can say previous tires can drop off sharply too. But Pirelly tire is not exactly losing its rubber layer when its performance drops off sharply. There's just no consistency in it.

When you talk about Bridgestone level, you are actually referring to its length of lifespan. Consistency is an entirely different matter. Its not about how long the lifespan is, its about how it traverse across its entire lifespan, regardless of its length.

This has got nothing to do with any particular driver. :roll
These drivers are all race drivers, not American Idol participant. They want consistency so they can go out racing, not walking on eggshells for the sake of entertainment.

I say again, F1 is a sport. Not a reality TV

[Ferrari2183]

Traditionally, the tire gradually drops off in performance, rather than simply turning itself off.

This is fact, its been done before, its not exactly magic. Every previous manufacturer has done this before, except for Pirelli. What gives?

Sure, if you consider the rubber layers completely worn off as a sharp drop off, then you can say previous tires can drop off sharply too. But Pirelly tire is not exactly losing its rubber layer when its performance drops off sharply. There's just no consistency in it.

When you talk about Bridgestone level, you are actually referring to its length of lifespan. Consistency is an entirely different matter. Its not about how long the lifespan is, its about how it traverse across its entire lifespan, regardless of its length.

This has got nothing to do with any particular driver. :roll
These drivers are all race drivers, not American Idol participant. They want consistency so they can go out racing, not walking on eggshells for the sake of entertainment.

I say again, F1 is a sport. Not a reality TV
And this is exactly the problem... Pirelli have been mandated to produce tyres with far greater degradation curves than these traditional tyres and with it comes the cliff that you so often refer to.

And please tell me when this has been done before... You can't have the mandated degradation (teams and FIA alike) along with consistency. They're at opposite ends of the spectrum. The reason why the Bridgestones had that type of consistency was because their degradation curve was much much lower.

Also, you grossly exaggerate the cliff... It is not like the tyre just switches off after 2 or 3 laps, but rather a marked decline over a number of laps before it starts affecting performance which is exactly as it should be. The drivers have it too easy these days with the cars producing ridiculous amounts of downforce that even the turns which once scared the living daylights out of drivers such as Eau Rouge and the old Masta Kink are now after thoughts.

Sometimes I wish the FIA will just mandate the hardness off the brakes and give the drivers rock hard tyres that offer very little grip and then let's separate the men from the boys.

Pirelli should be applauded for introducing a variable in the current mundane state of F1 where a driver can make a difference.

[Alonsofan2002]

the car makes the differance on the tires,ive notice the cars mid field/to back those cars are easier on the tires.

[Ferrari2183]

the car makes the differance on the tires,ive notice the cars mid field/to back those cars are easier on the tires.
This is true and is certainly part of the design philosophy, but the driver can't be excluded from this. Look at Alonso compared to Massa...

Alonso has been putting on a clinic when it comes to race craft and tyre usage for practically the whole season... Even when negotiating traffic he often makes the tyres last longer than most. Monaco and Germany being prime examples of how to get the best out of them in different scenarios.

The reason why Schumacher is moaning about the tyres is because neither he nor his team have found a solution and he is venting that frustration at Pirelli.

[Hornet]

Pirelli should be applauded for introducing a variable in the current mundane state of F1 where a driver can make a difference.

So that's what you want, seeing a war of tire management.

A driver can make a difference when they are allowed to go all out and push the limit, setting qualifying lap one after another during a race. Not tip toeing around because everyone is worried the tires won't last.

Introducing random element to spice things up is not what sports is about. That's like having a football match where the goal post expands and contracts randomly. Sports is about competitiveness without random element to spice things up. If you find that boring, then that's rather unfortunate but unlike a TV show, you can't shape a sport with entertainment factors in mind.

[Ferrari2183]

So that's what you want, seeing a war of tire management.

A driver can make a difference when they are allowed to go all out and push the limit, setting qualifying lap one after another during a race. Not tip toeing around because everyone is worried the tires won't last.

Introducing random element to spice things up is not what sports is about. That's like having a football match where the goal post expands and contracts randomly. Sports is about competitiveness without random element to spice things up. If you find that boring, then that's rather unfortunate but unlike a TV show, you can't shape a sport with entertainment factors in mind.
I really don't know what you want because prior to refueling tyre management was a big deal. Implying that it is some random event is silly at best... Managing the machinery and the tyres has always been tantamount to success and I'm glad it has been reintroduced. These drivers had it way to easy and to a great extent still do. Traction control, active suspensions, pit to car radio/vice versa and what not else where drivers are left with little to do except drive with the aide of tons of downforce which has negated the skill required to go around a track really fast a thing of the past.

Next, you're going to wish refuelling be brought back so you can see drivers go balls to the wall for x amount of laps prior to stopping again.

What you're asking for is akin to football player running flat out all the time with little or no thought regarding his stamina levels.

[scuderiafan]

I don't think the main issue is the tyres, but the fact that we have some of the most idiotic limits enforced on the tyres, and one day, it will become unsafe, to the point where a team might have to do what McLaren did in 2007 china for Lewis, as they have no tyres left.
Also why teams are making qualifying a farce at times. More tyres should be allowed. Then there will be more new tyres available, so degradation will be smaller.

[Hornet]

I really don't know what you want because prior to refueling tyre management was a big deal. Implying that it is some random event is silly at best... Managing the machinery and the tyres has always been tantamount to success and I'm glad it has been reintroduced. These drivers had it way to easy and to a great extent still do. Traction control, active suspensions, pit to car radio/vice versa and what not else where drivers are left with little to do except drive with the aide of tons of downforce which has negated the skill required to go around a track really fast a thing of the past.

Next, you're going to wish refuelling be brought back so you can see drivers go balls to the wall for x amount of laps prior to stopping again.

What you're asking for is akin to football player running flat out all the time with little or no thought regarding his stamina levels.

Tire management was a big deal, but the tires are more predictable and so you can actually build strategy around them when you know its degradation pattern. You can actually plan your strategy.

Who said tire management was never there?:roll
And who's talking about traction control? I'm talking about Pirelli's fragile tires that suddenly loses its performance rather than gradually degrades. This issue has been raised many times by the teams and drivers.

The problem now is that tire management has become tip toeing in the dark because you don't know when it will fall off a cliff and when it does, you are royally screwed.

Please note the difference between a more constant degradation and one that suddenly falls off the cliff. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[aroutis]

I really don't know what you want because prior to refueling tyre management was a big deal. Implying that it is some random event is silly at best... Prior to refueling indeed you needed to handle your tyres. However, the thing is that the way they degraded was much more predictable and had to do with the way you were driving and the way your car was set up, and NOT by the way the tyres were made (ie. to lose traction in the last 5-10 laps).

Right now, the way the tyres are made, they create unknown factors, that was NOT the case back then.

Also, I have to add, even with refueling, the tyre management was always there. So was fuel management for example. Active suspensions, on the other hand, were banned for all I can remember.

And since you 're asking, I would not mind refueling, I dont' see exactly the point in no refueling, since cars do come in the pits, since there are cars passing cars thru the pits. So why the negativity exactly? And by starting with an unknown amount of fuel spices up the race (one can start with full fuel tank, other with half and so forth, different strategies , different sets of tyres.. more variables).

[Ferrari2183]

You guys just don't get it... Pirelli was mandated by the teams and FIA to produce these more marginal tyres. And of course teams plan their strategies. How many times have you heard the teams talk of the amount of stops expected and it turns out to be correct. The only time I've seen the tyres hit a cliff is when the teams have deviated from the planned strategy ala Kimi (China) and Alonso (Canada).

And I'm still waiting for you guys to give me an example of a tyre that degraded more but offered the same consistency that you want.

I tell you why... Because it has never happened and will never happen.

[Hornet]

You guys just don't get it... Pirelli was mandated by the teams and FIA to produce these more marginal tyres. And of course teams plan their strategies. How many times have you heard the teams talk of the amount of stops expected and it turns out to be correct. The only time I've seen the tyres hit a cliff is when the teams have deviated from the planned strategy ala Kimi (China) and Alonso (Canada).

And I'm still waiting for you guys to give me an example of a tyre that degraded more but offered the same consistency that you want.

I tell you why... Because it has never happened and will never happen.

Regardless of whether it was intentional or otherwise, a fragile tire doesn't offer a competitive platform.

Consistency is how smooth it degrades, not how fast. You can simply make softer tires that offer more performance, but degrades faster.

I don't know what the FIA means by marginal. But if they want a shorter lifespan, then perhaps Pirelli should make the tire's lifespan shorter but with a smoother degradation curve.

A hypothetical example is this. Say you want a tire to only last 10 laps, and by the end of its lifespan, it should be 10 second slower. A perfectly consistent degradation curve would meant that after each lap is done, the tire is slower by 1 seconds. So when you plot the lap time versus time, you get a linear degradation.

I understand that in real life you cannot achieve such perfect degradation curve. But during the height of of tire development, they certainly achieved a much better consistency than what we're seeing with Pirelli. When you have a tire that runs ok for a certain amount of time, and suddenly it drops off, it hints that you may not know how to control the degradation, and so you have to artificially induce a huge drop off after certain amount of the rubber is used (by intentionally rig the tire to lose all performance after a certain point)

This is my problem with Pirelli.

If the FIA indeed wanted such intentional drop off, then to me that's manipulating the sport for entertainment purposes and I don't like that.

[Ferrari2183]

You're never going to get a linear degradation curve. It might happen for the first few laps of the tyre but after that we're in the territory of diminishing returns. I.e. That as the rubber gets less the degradation gets worse (eg lap 11 you lose 2 tenths but lap 12 you lose 3 tenths. You didn't see this in the height of the tyre war because the degradation was much much less and teams never really got to the bare bones of the rubber.

And nothing is intentionally introduced to cause a huge drop off but rather there is not enough rubber left to overcome the forces exerted on the tyres due to the mandated degradation.

[Alonsofan2002]

tires will last all of the race if fia/pir want it that way.

[SS454]

@ SS454,

Why would you say such and absurd statement that the Michelin tires are far better than any one else's????? you just talking nonsense. The current Pirelli Tires are a specific, "Spec" tire to be Engineered to have specific qualities. There is nothing wrong with the Pirelli tires! Look, No One has Ever had a failure do to these Pirelli tires and there is not other tire Manufacturer in formula One to even compare to regarding who is the best. I get upset with people that say things with no valid reason to support what they say. Michelin has been many years out of the sport and they to will have to re-learn the sport just as Pirelli did. People have to remember that Pirelli are making amazingly Engineered tires to a very specific task. We are seeing no variation in tires being used from one team to the other and every one has a very even playing field to work from. I liken it to NASCAR or IRL Racing with a Spec tire which everyone uses. I Formula One the only issue is the FIA and the Formula One Ruling Body have mandated that all teams must use Two (2) Different tire compounds in the race. This is the real bone of contention to be picked!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Michelin tends to dominate the tire wars in any series they compete in. They had a nice head to head against Pirelli in the WRC and Michelin were better. The Corvette C5R's in 2004 found something like 2 seconds a lap when they switched to Michelins. Michelin took all of 1 year to become a great tire in F1, and in fact by 2002 were easily the best tire in qualifying. 2003 they proved to be the best tire, and who wants to remember the massacre in 2005? What Pirelli has now is a tire made for giving a show, its not the best tire for grip, endurance, or any combination. Michelin know have to make a fast tire, and a durable tire. They have proven this time and time again. I think that is reason enough to believe Michelin would become the tire of choice if they returned to a tire war in F1.

[brembo man]

Michelin would have to do what there told to do by the Fia experts, and that is make tires similar to what there demanding from pirelli now. A fast tire best for grip, endurance or as you say any combo. is not what there asking for with Pirelli , or thats what they would be producing. Are boy is doing fine on his Pirellis and so is Nico with his ride on Pirellis, Todt's boy the chin just ain't got it. It's not the tires.

[Alonsofan2002]

I thought spec tire meant everybody has to run the same tires,not how there made.