Ferrari and Fernando were robbed of 2013 title by Pirelli- NEWEY

[scuderia_nano]

Sebastian Vettel benefited from mid-season tyre rules change

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer in Greater Noida

Red Bull say that changing the design of Formula 1's tyres mid-season was key to Sebastian Vettel's title win.Ferrari's Fernando Alonso was only 21 points behind the German after eight races this season.But the tyres were changed afterfailures at the British Grand Prix in June,and Vettel has won seven out of eight races since."Going back to 2012 tyres for sure helped us," Red Bull designer Adrian Newey said."Our car generally gets quite a bit of its benefit in the high-speed corners and the '13 tyres were much more load-sensitive."It was much easier to damage them if you put too much load into them, so we couldn't really use that high-speed benefit on the '13 tyres."Alonso had already identified the decision to revert to the more durable 2012 tyres as areason for Ferrari's loss of form.

Super-competitive Red Bull

"Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to."Red Bull designer Adrian NeweyPirelli changed the tyre design for 2013 but a series of failures in early-season races led todisquiet among teams and drivers,and a change was then forced on the sport by seven tyre failures during the British Grand Prix at the end of June, one of whichcost Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton a victory.A change in materials was made for the subsequent German Grand Prix, before theentire construction of the tyre was changed for the next race in Hungary,with a reversion to the 2012 design.Hamilton won in Hungary, but both he and Newey believe that was only because Vettel got stuck behind slower cars - including Jenson Button's McLaren.Since then, Vettel has won six consecutive races and the Germansealed his fourth championship in a rowwith victory in India on Sunday.Newey said that Red Bull's domination during the second half of the season was also down to them improving their car - extra performance they were able to exploit because of the greater durability of the tyres."We made some decent steps," said Newey, Red Bull's chief technical officer. "We actually introduced quite a few parts to the car, some of them in Hungary.Play mediaSebastian Vettel - the season so far"And really Hungary was one that got away for us in as much as I feel that was a weekend we didn't manage to deliver the full potential of the car, partly through set-up, although partly what ruined our race, of course, was Seb getting stuck behind Jenson."So that was a disappointment that perhaps masked where we'd got to in Hungary. In other words, we'd got further than it showed."But there was no single magic component or magic bullet to our upturn in performance."It was a number of components and we'd had a couple of races we probably should have done better at."Silverstone should have been an easy win [after Hamilton's retirement] but we had an input shaft failure [on the gearbox]."A bit of it was nature of circuit as well."The circuits we had as we got into the second half of the season suited the car - in as much as we'd been competitive on the medium-downforce circuits such as Bahrain and Montreal earlier in the season, but we hadn't fully got on top of the high-downforce front-limited circuits, such as China and Barcelona in particular."So Spa and Monza suited us as being medium and low-downforce circuits. And then by the time we got to Singapore, we managed to get on top of the high-downforce areas we'd struggled with a bit earlier in the season."Play mediaIs this the secret to Vettel's success?Newey said Ferrari's early season form - and the run of eight pole positions in nine races achieved by Mercedes, from the third Grand Prix in China to the 11th in Belgium - encouraged Red Bull to push hard with their car.That push went even as far as to reducing the effort Red Bull were putting into the 2014 car, which will need to take into account the new chassis and engine rules set to take effect."Ferrari started off well, but come mid-season Mercedes seemed to be making very good strides. You were kind of worrying that their development was going to overtake us and we could be on the back foot, so we kept pushing," said Newey, who haswon 10 drivers' and 10 constructors' titles with three different teams,a unique feat in F1 history."Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to, because of course all the time we were pushing on the '13 car, we weren't working on the '14 car."Equally if we'd gone the other way and backed off too early, then we'd have felt pretty sick."

[Senna4Ever]

somehow they must have at least one sorcerer as every development which they brought made their car better and faster ... Completely contrary to us ... this is really impressive ... And if its true that they have slacked their development for 2014 a bit (as Newey mentioned in the article) they might not be front runners in the first races but roll up from behind like bulldozer ...

[sreenivaschinne]

Sebastian Vettel benefited from mid-season tyre rules change

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer in Greater Noida

Red Bull say that changing the design of Formula 1's tyres mid-season was key to Sebastian Vettel's title win.Ferrari's Fernando Alonso was only 21 points behind the German after eight races this season.But the tyres were changed afterfailures at the British Grand Prix in June,and Vettel has won seven out of eight races since."Going back to 2012 tyres for sure helped us," Red Bull designer Adrian Newey said."Our car generally gets quite a bit of its benefit in the high-speed corners and the '13 tyres were much more load-sensitive."It was much easier to damage them if you put too much load into them, so we couldn't really use that high-speed benefit on the '13 tyres."Alonso had already identified the decision to revert to the more durable 2012 tyres as areason for Ferrari's loss of form.

Super-competitive Red Bull

"Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to."Red Bull designer Adrian NeweyPirelli changed the tyre design for 2013 but a series of failures in early-season races led todisquiet among teams and drivers,and a change was then forced on the sport by seven tyre failures during the British Grand Prix at the end of June, one of whichcost Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton a victory.A change in materials was made for the subsequent German Grand Prix, before theentire construction of the tyre was changed for the next race in Hungary,with a reversion to the 2012 design.Hamilton won in Hungary, but both he and Newey believe that was only because Vettel got stuck behind slower cars - including Jenson Button's McLaren.Since then, Vettel has won six consecutive races and the Germansealed his fourth championship in a rowwith victory in India on Sunday.Newey said that Red Bull's domination during the second half of the season was also down to them improving their car - extra performance they were able to exploit because of the greater durability of the tyres."We made some decent steps," said Newey, Red Bull's chief technical officer. "We actually introduced quite a few parts to the car, some of them in Hungary.Play mediaSebastian Vettel - the season so far"And really Hungary was one that got away for us in as much as I feel that was a weekend we didn't manage to deliver the full potential of the car, partly through set-up, although partly what ruined our race, of course, was Seb getting stuck behind Jenson."So that was a disappointment that perhaps masked where we'd got to in Hungary. In other words, we'd got further than it showed."But there was no single magic component or magic bullet to our upturn in performance."It was a number of components and we'd had a couple of races we probably should have done better at."Silverstone should have been an easy win [after Hamilton's retirement] but we had an input shaft failure [on the gearbox]."A bit of it was nature of circuit as well."The circuits we had as we got into the second half of the season suited the car - in as much as we'd been competitive on the medium-downforce circuits such as Bahrain and Montreal earlier in the season, but we hadn't fully got on top of the high-downforce front-limited circuits, such as China and Barcelona in particular."So Spa and Monza suited us as being medium and low-downforce circuits. And then by the time we got to Singapore, we managed to get on top of the high-downforce areas we'd struggled with a bit earlier in the season."Play mediaIs this the secret to Vettel's success?Newey said Ferrari's early season form - and the run of eight pole positions in nine races achieved by Mercedes, from the third Grand Prix in China to the 11th in Belgium - encouraged Red Bull to push hard with their car.That push went even as far as to reducing the effort Red Bull were putting into the 2014 car, which will need to take into account the new chassis and engine rules set to take effect."Ferrari started off well, but come mid-season Mercedes seemed to be making very good strides. You were kind of worrying that their development was going to overtake us and we could be on the back foot, so we kept pushing," said Newey, who haswon 10 drivers' and 10 constructors' titles with three different teams,a unique feat in F1 history."Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to, because of course all the time we were pushing on the '13 car, we weren't working on the '14 car."Equally if we'd gone the other way and backed off too early, then we'd have felt pretty sick."



so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????:furious

[FFFerrari]

so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????:furious

No. Mercedes also solved their tyre management problems when Pirelli reverted to 2012 specs in tyre construction.

[Hermann]

so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????:furious

It was Mercedes who had a secret test.

[BigGar32]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

[Ken]

I smell a conspiracy theory ?????????????????????????

So Perelli decided the racing should only be between Hamilton and Vettel :Hmm :twisted

[Kyss4k]

To somehow back up Pirelli in this, they said (when everyone called for bringing back the 2012 tyres) that it would give Red Bull the tiles. Pirelli then denied that it gave Red Bull the advantage, but that was just to cover their butts.

[Silent Bob]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

Not if a team has spent considerable time designing their car to use the tires in a certain way. The change back to 2012 tires didn't just affect the tires but also the aero at the back of the car. Red Bull had a car optimized for the 2012 tires... Ferrari had a car better suited to the 2013 tires. Would Ferrari have won if the tires had stayed the same? Maybe not, but it might have been a better season for us. Maybe our developments would have worked better, maybe strategy would have allowed us to win some races... no one will ever know. The only fact is that Red Bull dominated once the tires changed and Ferrari fell back. I don't think you should change something so critical as tires mid way through the season, there should have been a better solution.

[Greig]

In a way I can agree with BigGar32, if we had a great car yet let down by tyres then we would be shouting about it, see 2005.

Pirelli really had no option to change back, Silverstone was a disaster and the drivers were going to strike.

[Greig]

Also if we were robbed of the title then does this mean Stefano is not actually to blame?

[mirafiori]

Not if a team has spent considerable time designing their car to use the tires in a certain way. The change back to 2012 tires didn't just affect the tires but also the aero at the back of the car. Red Bull had a car optimized for the 2012 tires... Ferrari had a car better suited to the 2013 tires. Would Ferrari have won if the tires had stayed the same? Maybe not, but it might have been a better season for us. Maybe our developments would have worked better, maybe strategy would have allowed us to win some races... no one will ever know. The only fact is that Red Bull dominated once the tires changed and Ferrari fell back. I don't think you should change something so critical as tires mid way through the season, there should have been a better solution.
You are 100% correct, we all know that Ferrari were shafted, at the time there was favouritism given to Mercedes, they were struggling badly so the secret tyre test was a way of helping them to solve there tyre issues. But in the end it was Red Bull who gained the most.

[Alonsomaniac]

We were robbed of nothing. The car was not good enough.

[Mike996]

If lives are at stake, there is no other option. Seven tyre failures in one race are not acceptable from a safety point of view. Yes, it did favor certain teams and not Ferrari in the aftermath, but the reason for the reversion to 2012 spec tyres was not to do certain teams a favor but to make sure the tyres are safe.
I don't need another deadly accident.

[scuderia_nano]

Actually
All the more reasons to put blame on SD. Last year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli were better than This year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli.

Even he somewhat says that they lost on last years Advantage too.

Another example of How the team is actually going Backwards.

[wisepie]

Can it be possible that the F138 looked to be such a handful for both drivers just because of the tyre construction in the latter part of the season? Or is there something inherently wrong with the design and development of the car which caused us to go backwards with each 'upgrade'? Yes, we probably lost out a lot reverting to the 2012 tyres, but everyone else managed to overcome the problem better than us. And I don't just blame SD, it's seems that the technical masterminds were unable to work together to solve the issues.:Hmm

[Rosso Corsa]

The 2013 tyres were changed before Silverstone. There were delaminations in the early races, but Pirelli made them worse by removing the steel belt prior to Silverstone, such that there were catastrophic failures. The tyre spec should never have changed from Melbourne. They were fragile but safer.

[Senna4Ever]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

:thumb
exactly

it was worth to change back as it was too dangerous to stay at the wrong tire spec.
And at least Pirelli has a hard thing to do: develop something where you're not allowed to test. No one in the world (and especially in a high level sport like F1 which should be "uppermost of the toppermost") is forced not to test a high critical component of a racing machine without testing.

Unfortunately the mid season test was wasted resources from our side as we haven't learned anything about tires in Silverstone ... or we weren't able to convert it onto our car.

[Greig]

Actually
All the more reasons to put blame on SD. Last year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli were better than This year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli.

Even he somewhat says that they lost on last years Advantage too.

Another example of How the team is actually going Backwards.

So you post a thread saying the tyre change robbed us of the title, so therefore without the tyre change then we would have won and Stefano is doing his job.

So Stefano and the team in fact did move forward and would have been title winners if not for the Pirelli change as you say? This year's Ferrari was not designed to run on last years tyres was it.

[Hornet]

Can it be possible that the F138 looked to be such a handful for both drivers just because of the tyre construction in the latter part of the season? Or is there something inherently wrong with the design and development of the car which caused us to go backwards with each 'upgrade'? Yes, we probably lost out a lot reverting to the 2012 tyres, but everyone else managed to overcome the problem better than us. And I don't just blame SD, it's seems that the technical masterminds were unable to work together to solve the issues.:Hmm
From what I understand, Newey is saying the original 2013 tires were holding back the Red Bull performance because they couldn't last. Red Bull has always been the faster car, but they could not unleash their pace due to their usage of the tires.

Ferrari was never the faster car, but we got the 2013 tires right. So we were able to use our car more to it's potential while Red Bull was restricted. After Silverstone accident, there was no any choice but to go back to the old tires. They are more durable, and Red Bull then could unleash their performance and kick everyone's rear.

It was an unfortunate situation because after Silverstone accident, there was nothing we can do to avoid changing the tires. Before Silverstone, Horner was always complaining about the tires for those reasons Newey mentioned. But it didn't matter after Silverstone where it became a safety issue.

[Suzie]

Last year after Seb won, it was flags. This year after he wins, it's tyres. Always an excuse for why we didn't win.

I felt sick watching all those tyre explosions at Silverstone - let's not forget that both our drivers were affected that day, and most sane fans were very much in favour for Pirelli changing them.

I know that when Ferrari doesn't win, ranting and raving about cheating or conspiracies helps cope with the misery of defeat, but the bottom line is that another team did a better job.

[BigGar32]

Last year after Seb won, it was flags. This year after he wins, it's tyres. Always an excuse for why we didn't win.

I felt sick watching all those tyre explosions at Silverstone - let's not forget that both our drivers were affected that day, and most sane fans were very much in favour for Pirelli changing them.

I know that when Ferrari doesn't win, ranting and raving about cheating or conspiracies helps cope with the misery of defeat, but the bottom line is that another team did a better job.

Couldn't agree with you more. Sums my feelings up perfectly.

[impactX]

The only reason why the tyres blew up at Silverstone was because the teams put the left tyre on the right side and vice versa, not because there was anything wrong with the tyres structurally.

[Nova]

We were robbed of nothing. The car was not good enough.

I dont understand your reply. Its very simple actually...the F138 was a new car built to 2013 tire specs..the RB, an evolution. Ferrari was very competitive 1st part of the season. Look at the results. Now look at the results after the tire change...The 2012 tires didnt work on the F138, which shows just how new the car was. They can bring any updates they want, theyre not going to work..the car was designed for different tires. You can blame SD, Tomb, or anyone else you want to, but the truth lies in the results. And the results show just how much the tire change affected Ferrari.

I blame Pirelli..not only did their tires suit RB, but severely punished many of the other teams. And Pirelli being a big company on seeing this, should and could have introduced yet another new tire to F1. But they didnt..even after seeing how much RB dominated the 2013 season so far, they still did not do anything to level the field. I blame them for this as it does shape the season. Made it lopsided, and truth be told, boring as all get out.

You're blaming Ferrari, when they actually built a good car. By your handle, its no secret you are an Alonso fan. So yea, its ok to be ticked, but I am a Ferrari fan, and to me, this season is a lopsided wash. I cant believe the FIA let Pirelli get away with this. Pirelli is threatening to leave? Good..go away Pirelli, you've shown where your loyalty lies. The sport would be better if you did leave. Read what Newey said above...even he admits to it....

[scuderia_nano]

So you post a thread saying the tyre change robbed us of the title, so therefore without the tyre change then we would have won and Stefano is doing his job.

So Stefano and the team in fact did move forward and would have been title winners if not for the Pirelli change as you say? This year's Ferrari was not designed to run on last years tyres was it.



Firstly. We infer from what Neway said. Redbull gained a lot since The Tyres were changed.


Secondly. This year rules are same as last years with really minor changes. Even Stephano indicates that Ferrari lost Last year's advantage too.

Thirdly, Fernando, our lead driver, said that Tyre Change mid season affected our form.

And race after race from the past 4 race weekends, he has somewhat said that We lost because our development program has failed yet again.

So

Its nothing that I am saying. Its Fernando, Stephano and Neway saying things. I am merely psting them.


Why dont you open your mind and read and understand.

[FA fan]

Another secret of Red Bull's dominance in the second half of the season is emerging.

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport said former Stewart and Jaguar designer Gary Anderson, now a technical pundit for the BBC, floated the theory about the RB9.

The car, which in Sebastian Vettel's hands has won the last six grands prix on the trot, caught Anderson's attention recently when images of a rear-facing thermal camera were broadcast.

The images show that the floor just underneath the drivers' feet, the so-called 'tea-tray', was running extremely hot at slow speeds.

Anderson believes Adrian Newey may have found a way to "lift the 'tea tray' away from the track as it gets hot", allowing a lower front ride height.

Auto Motor und Sport reported on Tuesday that Force India also believes the Anderson theory, and that such a solution would be illegal.

So, in India, the FIA's technical delegate Jo Bauer reportedly put Anderson's theory to the test, heating the 'tea tray' to a temperature of 300 degrees C.

"The result? It did not move," said Auto Motor und Sport correspondent Michael Schmidt. "Consequently, the Red Bull RB9 is legal, at least in this area."

[Greig]

Firstly. We infer from what Neway said. Redbull gained a lot since The Tyres were changed.


Secondly. This year rules are same as last years with really minor changes. Even Stephano indicates that Ferrari lost Last year's advantage too.

Thirdly, Fernando, our lead driver, said that Tyre Change mid season affected our form.

And race after race from the past 4 race weekends, he has somewhat said that We lost because our development program has failed yet again.

So

Its nothing that I am saying. Its Fernando, Stephano and Neway saying things. I am merely psting them.


Why dont you open your mind and read and understand.

If we were robbed by the tyre change as your thread title states, then how do you say Ferrari done a bad job. If we design a car to work on 2013 tyres a car that would win the title then how is that us doing a bad job? So we done a great job in making a 2013 car but the tyres stopped us winning.

[scuderia_nano]

If we were robbed by the tyre change as your thread title states, then how do you say Ferrari done a bad job. If we design a car to work on 2013 tyres a car that would win the title then how is that us doing a bad job? So we done a great job in making a 2013 car but the tyres stopped us winning.

I believe you should ask Andrew Benson and Adrian Newey that. Im merely posting what they are stating.

Here Andrew suggests that Fernando was 21 points behind b4 tyres were changed.

Not Me.

[Greig]

You made the headline that it robbed us? not Benson

[scuderia_nano]

Let's try and analyse a few things.

#Q- Its seems since Pirelli changed the tyres Ferrari have struggled. Is that the case or is it simply the team have not been able to develop the car?


Alonso: The problem is our development. The problem is we didn't adapt to tyres or had steps that we planned. We arrive to races in July and with some updates that looked good on paper, but not so much on track. Annd I think that slowed down the performance inprovement that we should have had. The pirellis are an extra thing..... (Contd..)

Stephano- "This year we were unable to give our drivers a good car to fight with Vettel on equal terms from the very beginning of the season. Thanks to Fernando and his amazing talent, we managed to worry the world champion elect more than others, but unfortunately our efforts were not enough to fight all the way to end"

Ok mate, the thread title is misleading. I shouldn't have gotten influenced by Newey. Ferrari's development plan actually sucked bad and fell flat on the face 4th time in a row.

I'm going back to my Original hardcore fire Stephano stance. Thanks for the eye opener. I thought I'd give him a break but our conversation has opened my eyes as they say.

I hope Luca realizes SD's taken Ferrari backwards and takes a call.

Meanwhile you can change the thread title if you wish to.

[Aberracus]

So you post a thread saying the tyre change robbed us of the title, so therefore without the tyre change then we would have won and Stefano is doing his job.

So Stefano and the team in fact did move forward and would have been title winners if not for the Pirelli change as you say? This year's Ferrari was not designed to run on last years tyres was it.

The Team principal should have fighted more hardly like Horner did to keep our tyre advantage at least until the debacle at Silverstone, but SD didn't said a word.

[Greig]

The Team principal should have fighted more hardly like Horner did to keep our tyre advantage at least until the debacle at Silverstone, but SD didn't said a word.

You realise when one of our drivers is nearly killed by those tyres, and the drivers said they will not race if it happened again kind of tied the hands of anyone against change?

I am sure you can realise this so why do you try and use it against Stefano?

[Hornet]

IIRC, Ferrari was one of the team along with Lotus who did not agree to the change, prior to Silverstone. We may not be vocal about it publicly, but we certainly stood our ground where it matters, which is behind closed doors and not with the media.

[scuderia_nano]

I wouldnt blame SD for the tyre change.

But "For Sure" he deserves maximum blame for the teams failure to deliver a good car for 4 years.

[Silent Bob]

Let's try and analyse a few things.

#Q- Its seems since Pirelli changed the tyres Ferrari have struggled. Is that the case or is it simply the team have not been able to develop the car?


Alonso: The problem is our development. The problem is we didn't adapt to tyres or had steps that we planned. We arrive to races in July and with some updates that looked good on paper, but not so much on track. Annd I think that slowed down the performance inprovement that we should have had. The pirellis are an extra thing..... (Contd..)

Stephano- "This year we were unable to give our drivers a good car to fight with Vettel on equal terms from the very beginning of the season. Thanks to Fernando and his amazing talent, we managed to worry the world champion elect more than others, but unfortunately our efforts were not enough to fight all the way to end"

Ok mate, the thread title is misleading. I shouldn't have gotten influenced by Newey. Ferrari's development plan actually sucked bad and fell flat on the face 4th time in a row.

I'm going back to my Original hardcore fire Stephano stance. Thanks for the eye opener. I thought I'd give him a break but our conversation has opened my eyes as they say.

I hope Luca realizes SD's taken Ferrari backwards and takes a call.

Meanwhile you can change the thread title if you wish to.




Will getting rid of Domenicalli give Ferrari a better car next season? Seems to me they've made some pretty drastic changes to deal with their development shortfalls... only thing left is to see if it all works.

[scuderia_nano]

Having SD has not helped in half a decade. So maybe letting him go has a better chance of proving otherwise.

[Greig]

Having SD has not helped in half a decade. So maybe letting him go has a better chance of proving otherwise.

You can replace him, and nothing will change as we will still be limited by our designers and engineers that is where we are falling short.

Stefano does not design, update and develop the car.

[scuderia_nano]

If he is not responsible for all that then it should be even easier for us to let him go.

[Greig]

If he is not responsible for all that then it should be even easier for us to let him go.

Sure, but as said it won't change anything so maybe that is why Luca has not changed him.

Do you understand our problems and how we can solve them? you seem to be focussed on Stefano while ignoring the real truth. You probably wanted Todt out in 95/96 like the Italian media did.

[DIEK]

In a way I can agree with BigGar32, if we had a great car yet let down by tyres then we would be shouting about it, see 2005.

Pirelli really had no option to change back, Silverstone was a disaster and the drivers were going to strike.

I think Silverstone circuit was the worst for those wheels and teams also misuse them, exchanging this position (2013 wheels were asymmetrical), exceeding the recommended camber by Pirelli, exceeding the number of laps...this disastrous GP was the just excuse needed to adulterate the championship.

[Greig]

I think Silverstone circuit was the worst for those wheels and teams also misuse them, exchanging them (wheels were asymmetrical), exceeding the recommended camber by Pirelli, exceeding the number of laps...was the just excuse needed to adulterate the championship.

So Ferrari were to blame for the tyres being changed?

[Alonsomaniac]

I dont understand your reply. Its very simple actually...the F138 was a new car built to 2013 tire specs..the RB, an evolution. Ferrari was very competitive 1st part of the season. Look at the results. Now look at the results after the tire change...The 2012 tires didnt work on the F138, which shows just how new the car was. They can bring any updates they want, theyre not going to work..the car was designed for different tires. You can blame SD, Tomb, or anyone else you want to, but the truth lies in the results. And the results show just how much the tire change affected Ferrari.

I blame Pirelli..not only did their tires suit RB, but severely punished many of the other teams. And Pirelli being a big company on seeing this, should and could have introduced yet another new tire to F1. But they didnt..even after seeing how much RB dominated the 2013 season so far, they still did not do anything to level the field. I blame them for this as it does shape the season. Made it lopsided, and truth be told, boring as all get out.

You're blaming Ferrari, when they actually built a good car. By your handle, its no secret you are an Alonso fan. So yea, its ok to be ticked, but I am a Ferrari fan, and to me, this season is a lopsided wash. I cant believe the FIA let Pirelli get away with this. Pirelli is threatening to leave? Good..go away Pirelli, you've shown where your loyalty lies. The sport would be better if you did leave. Read what Newey said above...even he admits to it....

It's no secret either that I am a Ferrarifan too and will still be long after Fernando has retired.
I don't blame Ferrari, I just say the car was not good enough compared to Red Bulls car. Yes, the tyres made a difference, but on the 2013 tyres the Ferrari was not faster than the Red Bull while on the 2012 tyres the RB was a rocketship. So, looking at the complete story, Red Bull built a better car.
That is not blaming Ferrari, it is a fact that Ferrari herself acknowledges.

[Alonsomaniac]

If Stefano leaving would solve the problem, he would immediately leave Ferrari because he loves the team.
We can't blame one man. I think Luca and Stefano will be having some difficult talks in order to get to the real solution, which is not going to be easy.

[scuderia_nano]

Sure, but as said it won't change anything so maybe that is why Luca has not changed him.

Do you understand our problems and how we can solve them? you seem to be focussed on Stefano while ignoring the real truth. You probably wanted Todt out in 95/96 like the Italian media did.

Firstly I care less about 95/96 or Italian media for that matter Any other opinion. 30% of this forum might think your posts an idiotic representation of attempts to keep this forum alive. Hence U keep repeating conversations. I wouldnt call it idiotic yet. I think its wrong to judge any one so soon. I will talk in 2016 About that


I understand our problems. I understand that our design team, Our Aero department and our Strategy engineers have failed. Even when 1 Strategist was fired and Another was brought in. He has not done si well.
Similarly A designer was let go and another was brought in. Still things dint work out. Infact, The team that designer joined is giving scares to Redbull and has Equal number of poke positions.

Wind tunnel was changed cz old one was outdated. New one is still giving Old results.


So Simply, The guy making these decisions should leave.

Now you dont have to agree with me. You can sit year after year defending This man. I cant. Its the 5th year without A title.

As of now with 0 titles in 5 years.. I guess Im making more sense than you.

And please; You can having the same discussions with me on each thread and I will patiently reply the same way.

SD must go.

[Hornet]

I think Silverstone circuit was the worst for those wheels and teams also misuse them, exchanging this position (2013 wheels were asymmetrical), exceeding the recommended camber by Pirelli, exceeding the number of laps...this disastrous GP was the just excuse needed to adulterate the championship.

The reality is that we may never know for sure if it's the tire construction, the swapping, or both which contributed to the failures. There is no way to determine it unless we went back there and replicate the race with the same tires but without swapping, and second time with new tires and swap them.

Therefore the safest route would be to do both, change the tires, and prevent swapping.

[scuderia_nano]

Sure, but as said it won't change anything so maybe that is why Luca has not changed him.

Do you understand our problems and how we can solve them? you seem to be focussed on Stefano while ignoring the real truth. You probably wanted Todt out in 95/96 like the Italian media did.

Firstly I care less about 95/96 or Italian media for that matter Any other opinion. 30% of this forum might think your posts an idiotic representation of attempts to keep this forum alive. Hence U keep repeating conversations. I wouldnt call it idiotic yet. I think its wrong to judge any one so soon. I will talk in 2016 About that


I understand our problems. I understand that our design team, Our Aero department and our Strategy engineers have failed. Even when 1 Strategist was fired and Another was brought in. He has not done si well.
Similarly A designer was let go and another was brought in. Still things dint work out. Infact, The team that designer joined is giving scares to Redbull and has Equal number of poke positions.

Wind tunnel was changed cz old one was outdated. New one is still giving Old results.


So Simply, The guy making these decisions should leave.

Now you dont have to agree with me. You can sit year after year defending This man. I cant. Its the 5th year without A title.

As of now with 0 titles in 5 years.. I guess Im making more sense than you.

And please; You can having the same discussions with me on each thread and I will patiently reply the same way.

SD must go.

[Giallo 550]

I thought the car looked pretty good in the beginning of the season. It was a vast improvement over the beginning of last season and up until the tires started exploding, they were working pretty well with the Ferraris. There's no denying that the tire change had a negative affect on them.

[Kyss4k]

You realise when one of our drivers is nearly killed by those tyres, and the drivers said they will not race if it happened again kind of tied the hands of anyone against change?

I am sure you can realise this so why do you try and use it against Stefano?

The sad thing is there was probably no need to change the tyres after all. All that was needed was to raise the minimal allowed pressure and deny tyre switching.

[puto.havana]

I think Silverstone circuit was the worst for those wheels and teams also misuse them, exchanging this position (2013 wheels were asymmetrical), exceeding the recommended camber by Pirelli, exceeding the number of laps...this disastrous GP was the just excuse needed to adulterate the championship.


So Ferrari were to blame for the tyres being changed?

Perhaps Ferrari could have 'blown the whistle' on the practices of exceeding camber and swapping the tyres and maybe what happened at Silverstone might not have.

Sure they may have suffered short term (i.e. by not employing those tactics) but had the tyres not been changed then it may have been possible to compete for the WDC and WCC in spite of the fact that the RB9 being a better car.

Whilst it cannot be said conclusively whether or not they tried lobbying this position given that I do not recall there being reports in the media. Conversely I seem to recall that every race weekend there was a quote from Red Bull stating that the tyres were not safe.

There are lots of ifs, buts and perhaps in this, but on the surface, to me at least, it comes across that Ferrari were not as politically savvy as Red Bull.

[Cozza]

Say what you will about Stefano but at least the cheque book will be nice and balanced :lol

[Hornet]

I don't quite understand where the idea came from, that the problems came from the tire swapping and not the constructions. AFAIK, the drivers were demanding for a change of the tires, it was Pirelli who further recommend that the FIA stop the teams from swapping as a precaution. I don't think that necessarily meant the swapping was the main culprit.

As I've said, without a proper experiment, there is no way to determine the exact cause and solution, and since this involves safety, we had no choice to but take all precaution measure.

[DIEK]

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1 4h Red Bull say changing the design of Formula 1's tyres mid-season was key to Sebastian Vettel's title win http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24717889 …
Retweeted by Scuderia Ferrari

:ouch

[Nova]

Allison tweeted that it was also a lot of politics. Im not sure I understand what he meant.
Anyone car to enlighten me?

[FrankAlfa]

I think it sad and obviously unsportsman for Paul Hembery to be so involved with the teams to the point of having very private contact. This in itself is Unnatura, unprofessionall and puts a huge question mark on what affect this direct contact is influencing and exerting pressure on the sport. A better solution would to have Paul Hembery and Pirelli Isolated from the teams and only have the Engineers from Pirelli and the teams have interaction. What transpired and took place this past season between Paul Hembery and the few select teams was nothing short of criminal. Instead of just adjusting the compounds to reduce degredation by going to a harder tire compound, Pirelli decided to respond to the direct demands of Red Bull and and Mercedes and went so far as to give Mercedes a Private Tire Test which resulted in Mercedes going to the top of the grid. These actions by Paul Hembery are certainly unethical and very unsportsman like to say the least. The fact is the FIA allowed illegal in season testing and direct changes as a result to take place, is proof of Favoritism in Formula One. How this all played out is sickening to me and tells me that Ferrari have to either "Play Dirty" like these top teams or know if these don't, Ferrari like McLaren & Williams will be left behind. In my opinion, the FIA and the Sport of Formula One are rewarding those teams that push the rules beyond the written limits in a Totally Unethical manner. This is why I personally, have decided to stopped posting so often on this site and I have lost a great deal of interest in Formula One. No, Formula One is Not the "Pinnicale" of motor sports when so much unethical behavior is permitted in this sport. This Sport is much like Professional Wrestling because of what is going on in the "Sport" of Formula One.

[Muhammad Ansib]

I am against Stefano personally but He must go!..Ferrari must fire him..each year same excuses "FOR SURE" and the best one I like is "Stay Calm"..How can we stay calm when we are fighting to be second and that aswell seems difficult at this moment. and on a personal note I literally hate it when Stefano becomes a Brown-nosed person eg wished Christian Horner his Birthday in the Teams press Conference (Ross Brawn was also there and He didnt)..I didnt see Jean Todt doing any sort of this!

P.S great driver from Fernando and Felipe. and Anyone wants to name a potential replacement for stefano?:lou:lou

[Greig]

Why don't you list the names who should replace him?

[Muhammad Ansib]

Well thats upto the Team But the BBC have confirmed that Ross Brawn is free

[Rob]

Well thats upto the Team But the BBC have confirmed that Ross Brawn is free

link? :Hmm

[giodap]

Newey reveals he turned down Ferrari offer

Adrian Newey has admitted he once came close to agreeing to work for Ferrari.

The future of the renowned Red Bull designer is currently the subject of hot speculation, amid news he met with Ben Ainslie in Abu Dhabi at the weekend.

British sailor Ainslie is putting together a British team for an America's Cup bid, and Newey has admitted he is interested in competitive yacht design.

"He (Newey) would be amazing," Ainslie told BBC radio 2, confirming that Newey's "design experience would be crucial".

For now, the 54-year-old is committed to helping Red Bull win a fifth consecutive world championship next year for the all-new turbo V6 rules.

And he told Italian television Sky: "Years ago I had the opportunity to go to Ferrari, but I had small children at school (in Britain) and so it was not an easy decision.

"But I think that being part of Ferrari, as an engineer, is the same sort of dream as it is for a driver. Unfortunately it never really came to fruition.

"I believe that Red Bull will be my last team, but to leave and start from scratch would not be so tragic," La Gazzetta dello Sport quotes Newey as saying.

[sagi58]

Newey reveals he turned down Ferrari offer

Adrian Newey has admitted he once came close to agreeing to work for Ferrari...

And he told Italian television Sky: "Years ago I had the opportunity to go to Ferrari, but I had small children at school (in Britain) and so it was not an easy decision.

"But I think that being part of Ferrari, as an engineer, is the same sort of dream as it is for a driver. Unfortunately it never really came to fruition...

So... this won't be popular; but, I can forgive Newey for not coming to Ferrari BECAUSE he took his children into consideration when making the decision!!:clap
AND, I can forgive him because he recognizes being at Ferrari is a dream come true for pretty well anyone in F1!!:clap

[Hermann]

I thought he had said his wife doesn't like Italy or something :Hmm

[FA fan]

I thought he had said his wife doesn't like Italy or something :Hmm

Maybe he didn't like the idea of leaving his wife all alone in Italy,while he's busy at Ferrari trying to give the car more Down Force:)

[Nova]

What a wuss...:-D

[Nova]

Speaking of tires:::

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Stephen Goodchild | Monday 4th November 2013 | 0 Comments

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Sung Hak Moon poses with the Kumho-shod test car Kumho first stated its interest in F1 tyre supply as early as 2004, and speculation regarding the Korean tyre maker’s aims occasionally makes the news. Now the company itself has mentioned the F-word, reporting that in September it officially tested its F1 tyres – which have the same specifications as the tyres it will supply to Auto GP from 2014 – at Spain’s Circuit de Catalunya. Three days of evaluation began on 16 September and Kumho says the purpose for the test was to “validate the technology for future business with F1 and to actually test the technology accumulated through motor sports since the 1990s for F1.”

[PURE PASSION]

Speaking of tires:::

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Stephen Goodchild | Monday 4th November 2013 | 0 Comments

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Sung Hak Moon poses with the Kumho-shod test car Kumho first stated its interest in F1 tyre supply as early as 2004, and speculation regarding the Korean tyre maker’s aims occasionally makes the news. Now the company itself has mentioned the F-word, reporting that in September it officially tested its F1 tyres – which have the same specifications as the tyres it will supply to Auto GP from 2014 – at Spain’s Circuit de Catalunya. Three days of evaluation began on 16 September and Kumho says the purpose for the test was to “validate the technology for future business with F1 and to actually test the technology accumulated through motor sports since the 1990s for F1.”
Link?

[ManFromMilan]

What a wuss...:-D


Probably not as big as Horner:-D Let's see how long Horner, Newey and Marko stay best buddies when they are not the dominant force anymore next year.


Speaking of tires:::

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Stephen Goodchild | Monday 4th November 2013 | 0 Comments

Kumho conducts ‘F1 test’ in Spain
Sung Hak Moon poses with the Kumho-shod test car Kumho first stated its interest in F1 tyre supply as early as 2004, and speculation regarding the Korean tyre maker’s aims occasionally makes the news. Now the company itself has mentioned the F-word, reporting that in September it officially tested its F1 tyres – which have the same specifications as the tyres it will supply to Auto GP from 2014 – at Spain’s Circuit de Catalunya. Three days of evaluation began on 16 September and Kumho says the purpose for the test was to “validate the technology for future business with F1 and to actually test the technology accumulated through motor sports since the 1990s for F1.”



Could be good even just to keep Pirelli in check and playing along.

[giodap]

Ferrari and Lotus were lucky the Pirelli tyres introduced during the winter helped them become competitive, according to Red Bull’s chief technical officer Adrian Newey.

Speaking on the Sport und Talk programme on Red Bull’s television channel Servus TV yesterday, Newey disputed the claim the two teams had developed their cars to suit the original 2013 Pirelli tyres better.

“We had a big change over the winter, an unexpected change,” said Newey. “Pirelli introduced a new tyre which was much more sensitive, it was very easy to overload it and because our car, a lot of its lap time is under braking and in the high speed corners, where you’re putting a lot of load into the tyres, we couldn’t really exploit that without the tyres going off very quickly.”

Adrian Newey, Red Bull, 2013“So that tyre change hurt us and helped some other people, such as Lotus, Ferrari perhaps. For me that was purely luck.

“I think Lotus and Ferrari are making making noises about how clever they were over the winter to read that far. But to be perfectly honest they were just plain lucky, we were a little bit unlucky, and of course the the politics take over. So it’s been a challenging year but a very rewarding one.”

Lotus and Ferrari won three of the first five races but haven’t taken any victories since. Pirelli revised its tyres following the British Grand Prix in which several drivers suffered high-speed tyre failures.

Red Bull felt “fragile” at mid-season

Newey said in addition to pressure from Ferrari, Red Bull were also worried about Mercedes’ form in the middle of the season.

“It’s been a difficult season at times for us,” he said. “We started off, strong result in Malaysia, one-two in the second race. And then kind of our competitiveness went up and down a little bit.”

“It was a very close fight, Ferrari were very strong early in the season, Mercedes came on strong sort of around Monaco time. So come that middle of the season point we were not… we were in the lead of the championship, but it felt fragile, it felt as if Mercedes particularly at that point were on a roll.”

Newey admitted their focus on developing a car for next year’s rules change may have been compromised by their focus on securing the 2013 titles:

“We kept pushing, we introduced quite a few changes to the car, updates some in Hungary just before the summer break, then more in Spa. And that seemed to give us momentum.

“I guess really we’ve kept pushing all the way to Singapore in terms of introducing new parts, even Japan, which you could look back on now and say perhaps we pushed harder than we needed to because in doing that of course it’s taken resource off next year’s car.

“It didn’t feel that way at the time, it felt as if we needed to keep pushing and it’s been tremendous to have this roll that we’ve had at the end of the season.”

[F1NAC]

Who were loud early in season because of tires. Red Bull simply works by principle of developing a year before car. This year the case was that the car wasn't good on this tires. So Newey was in wrong. In Spain RB were very loud because of 4 pitstops. In 2011 also were 4 pitstops and no one said a word. Then after tire changing they were all quiet. Just hate you more now Adrian