F1 peers split over Vettel versus Alonso question

[FA fan]

As only a forced winter pause finally stops Sebastian Vettel's winning streak for now, the F1 grid is divided over whether the German is really the best.

He has won four world championships on the trot, and recently equalled famous records once set by statistical legends Michael Schumacher and Alberto Ascari.

Still, not all of his peers think the Red Bull driver is better than the 2013 runner-up, Ferrari's Fernando Alonso.

"They are both great drivers," Vettel's retiring teammate Mark Webber said, "but I can only say that I was really happy to be fighting against Fernando in my last race."

Australian Webber, however, is famously friendly with the Spaniard.

Alonso's Ferrari teammate for the past four years, Felipe Massa, is undecided.

"For me, they are both great," the Brazilian told Spain's AS sports newspaper, who in Brazil last weekend surveyed every driver on the grid for their opinion about Vettel versus Alonso.

"Vettel is the champion," Massa added, "Fernando is considered the best. You want me to say one? I won't do that."

Others are less diplomatic. "I think that in that Red Bull, Alonso would win even more easily than Vettel does," said Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton.

Nico Rosberg added: "I don't know if Alonso is the best, but he's one of the best, no doubt. Better than Seb? Maybe."

Alonso's fellow Spanish speaker, Mexican Sergio Perez, answered: "Although this year has been all about Vettel, it is clear to me that Alonso is the best."

Another Mexican, Esteban Gutierrez, added: "Alonso, yes, Alonso. He is still the best."

McLaren driver Jenson Button is not so convinced: "I couldn't say," said the Briton.

"If I was a team boss ... when I am a team boss I will show you who I would sign," Button laughed.

Pastor Maldonado added: "I think Vettel is very good, for sure, but if I was a team I would have Alonso, of course, without a doubt.

"Fernando is a genius," the Venezuelan said.

But Valtteri Bottas answered: "Um ... that's a difficult question. I think I would have them both!"

Caterham's Giedo van der Garde and Marussia's Max Chilton also answered: "Both."

Heikki Kovalainen did not hesitate before naming his favourite: "Alonso."

Romain Grosjean admitted: "That is a very difficult question and I couldn't honestly answer it."

Nico Hulkenberg agreed: "Impossible to say, impossible to know."

Adrian Sutil added: "All I can say is that they are both very good, but I wouldn't like to say one or the other (is best)."

But Paul di Resta admitted he is leaning in Alonso's direction. "It's hard to say, Vettel is the champion but Fernando ... what can you say about Alonso that hasn't already been said?"

Some drivers gave political answers.

"I have Spanish and German friends, so I don't want to hurt anyone," laughed Caterham's Charles Pic.

"I think I will surprise you," said Red Bull-owned Toro Rosso's continuing driver Jean-Eric Vergne, "but I will say Vettel."

"I admire Fernando," said Daniel Ricciardo, who will be Vettel's teammate in 2014, "but I'll take Seb!"

Jules Bianchi smiled: "I stick with Alonso, but I can't say anything else, as I work with Ferrari.

[Jose Lorca]

He breaks all the records but still can't convince his fellow drivers that he's the best. Says a lot about Vettel's abilities. Or Alonso's abilities.

[BigGar32]

There's no way of knowing for sure on this one. I'm just happy that the sport has some great drivers operating at the moment and these are two of them. The only way we'll ever know is if they are in the same team and I would be astonished if this ever happened. I think people need to realise though that Vettel is only 26 so he's still got a lot of improvement in him and despite our loyalties to Ferrari he is a superb driver. Webber may not have been truly elite standard (similar to Massa maybe) but on the whole he has literally been blown away by Vettel. Alonso has done the same to Massa so who knows really........

[F2002]

All we know is that Vettel is better than Webber, the rest is all guesswork.

[Stormsearcher]

Sounds like more than half the drivers think Alonso is the best. :-)
This must be killing Seb. :lol:lol:lol

[Stormsearcher]

Maybe Horner will go public and ask people not to say that cause Seb is sensitive and it hurts his feelings. :rotfl

[Kingdom Hearts]

He breaks all the records but still can't convince his fellow drivers that he's the best. Says a lot about Vettel's abilities. Or Alonso's abilities.


Exactly, the fans and the journos can say whatever they want but when people in the paddock, drivers, team principals and other people that knows what's going on, can't decide between Fernando and Vettel, or even some people prefer Fernando over Vettel despite his massive success, it makes you think. Not we Alonso/Ferrari fans don't know who is the best.

[giodap]

what a stupid question. alonso has taken a car 3rd, 4th or 5th fastest over the last 4 years and nearly won the wdc twice. hes also finished 2nd 3 times to vettels rocket ship in the last 4 seasons.

anyone who thinks vettel is the better driver is clearly anti ferrari or just anti alonso

[M.K]

4 titles in the row and still large part of the drivers (and rest of the world) doesn't think that he is the best... it must hurt.

[Katu]

Maybe Horner will go public and ask people not to say that cause Seb is sensitive and it hurts his feelings. :rotfl

that's a good one :lol

[Hermann]

Maybe Horner will go public and ask people not to say that cause Seb is sensitive and it hurts his feelings. :rotfl

Just wait and see. You are not that far from the truth.

[Alesi1]

Funny how quickly people forget, the current world champion was struggling to match webber in 2010, evening requesting a new chassis and still getting spanked. Let's not forget nurburgring, flogged on out and out pace despite a stop go penalty. It really wasn't till the engine blowing took hold and assisted the braking stability that mark started to lose out. I know Mark was ordinary this year but I think he was going through the motions. Trying to put aside personal preferences, I haven't seen Alonso ever be beaten by an opponent to the degree that he requested a new chassis? Jury is still out, and if vet loses to ricciardo, egg will be on his face and also on f1.

[AfterLife]

It is not really possible to judge but IMO Fernando Alonso is the best.

I hope someday (Hopefully soon), Nico Hulkenberg will be able to have a competitive car to show who is perfect driver among young drivers.

[eddie]

Put vettel in our car and we would know... Fernando is the best, crystal clear!

So if someone asks is vettel the best, I would say newey :-D

[wisepie]

Vettel has had by far the best car for the past four seasons, put him in any other car on the grid and only then could we see whether he was the best. Yes he's fast, consistent, intelligent and mostly has led from the front giving him an extra advantage, so there's no question as to who has driven the best to achieve what he has, and that's Fernando.

[radosav]

Uh so glad about this! During last few years when one of the drivers would say this, or even one of ex F1 champions, Vettel fans would say that he is jealous about Vettels success!
They can't all be jealous now, can't they?!

[Nero Horse]

Until I see Vettel in another team without the Newey/Horner backing, I can't really make an accurate assessment, but one thing is for sure, if I was a team boss then I would definitely want Alonso driving for my team. Alonso's race-craft is simply unmatched among this generation of F1 drivers. In fact I'd be willing to bet my house on Alonso winning the race where everyone has completely equal cars. Based on current evidence, I think it's a no-brainer that Alonso is by far the best race driver, but in qualifying one lap format it might be Vettel or Ham. But overall Alonso is definitely the best driver of this generation, no doubt.

[Giallo 550]

There is no doubt in my mind that Fernando Alonso is the best driver on the grid.

[Alonsomaniac]

In fact it is a ridiculous situation. There we have a four times champion and nobody knows how good he is.......just because of the car.
If Vettel really wants to be one of the greats, he has to leave Red Bull and prove his abilities in an other car.
If he then wins it all again, he will go into the history books as a Great Champion.

It's all up to Vettel, but as long as he has not taken up that challenge I will still consider Fernando to be the best of this generation of drivers.
It's not Fernando who has to prove anything, it's the four times champion who does.

Again, ridiculous situation, but looking at the opinions of many drivers, it's the truth.

So mr Vettel,.............:roll

[F2002]

In fact it is a ridiculous situation. There we have a four times champion and nobody knows how good he is.......just because of the car.
If Vettel really wants to be one of the greats, he has to leave Red Bull and prove his abilities in an other car.
If he then wins it all again, he will go into the history books as a Great Champion.

It's all up to Vettel, but as long as he has not taken up that challenge I will still consider Fernando to be the best of this generation of drivers.
It's not Fernando who has to prove anything, it's the four times champion who does.

Again, ridiculous situation, but looking at the opinions of many drivers, it's the truth.

So mr Vettel,.............:roll

I'm still very much intrigued by this line of thought, with so many people claiming that Vettel's true worth can only be judged if he drives an inferior car. The corollary, of course, is that the true champions are only the ones who have been able to win a WDC with a car that wasn't clearly the best of the field.

Some people argue that this logic dismisses, rather than reinforces, the notion that Alonso is the best driver on the grid, specifically because he hasn't won a WDC since he moved away from Renault, clearly a championship-winning car at the time.

If Vettel leaves Red Bull in favour of a team which has an inferior car, and stops winning, wouldn't that be the same as what Alonso did? Why, then, would we stop believing that Vettel is a good driver, whereas we still believe that Alonso is the best one around?

This is only an observation, of course, I still maintain that it is very difficult to judge who is the absolute best.

[FrankAlfa]

Maybe the "Race of Champions" Series is a real test of Championship winning drivers. I guess the reason why so many people are so skeptical of Vettel's ability is the fact that so many questioning if Red Bull is cheating with a race car the circumvents the rules.

There have been so many things that have clearly broken the rules with no penalty that have been pointed out regarding Vettel's race car of which FIA has duly noted and allowed to be run on Vettel's car even though they are clearly not in keeping with the Rules.

This is the reason for so much resentment towards Red Bull and Vettel!

[VSI]

I'm still very much intrigued by this line of thought, with so many people claiming that Vettel's true worth can only be judged if he drives an inferior car. The corollary, of course, is that the true champions are only the ones who have been able to win a WDC with a car that wasn't clearly the best of the field.

Actually, in my opinion, its not necessarily the winning of a WDC in an inferior car that truly marks the "greatness" of a driver - its his ability to keep fighting against all odds and deliver disproportionate results to the car's ability. Case in point Alonso in 2012 - despite not winning he was recognised by most knowledgeable F1 enthusiasts as the driver of the season; that performance will go down in F1's popular folklore and he didn't even win the championship.

I agree that to win the WDC you need the best / near-best car - which Vettel, for no fault of his own, has consistently had for his 4 WDCs. We will know Vettel's true mettle only when he replicates Alonso 2012 or Schumi 97/98.

[F2002]

Actually, in my opinion, its not necessarily the winning of a WDC in an inferior car that truly marks the "greatness" of a driver - its his ability to keep fighting against all odds and deliver disproportionate results to the car's ability. Case in point Alonso in 2012 - despite not winning he was recognised by most knowledgeable F1 enthusiasts as the driver of the season; that performance will go down in F1's folklore and he didn't even win the championship.

I agree that to win the WDC you need the best / near-best best car - which Vettel, for no fault of his own, has consistently had for his 4 WDCs. We will know Vettel's true mettle only when he replicates Alonso 2012 or Schumi 97/98.

This is closer to what I think, to be honest, infact I believe that there are a few very strong drivers out there who go unnoticed simply because their cars are not competing towards the front of the grid.

I wonder whether anybody here (who is better at statistics than I am) is able to give us some quantitative measure of your statement "deliver disproportionate results to the car's ability", which by the way is a very good definition of a driver's relative ability in my opinion. Perhaps the results surprise us, and Bianchi or someone from the back achieves the highest rating ;-)

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Ask the team principles, all of them would choose Alonso bar Red Bull and Torro Rosso. Heck, even Martin Whitmarsh and Boullier would take Alonso back.

[Dino]

If Lewis-Alonso-Hulk-Rosberg-Massa-Kimi-Romain-had the same Gadgets on their cars they would lap everyone.
Vettel is using the approximate 740 hp (552 kW) output at 18000 rpm in different ways to his rivals.
That is why most of the drivers/team priciples dont give him much credit.:furious

[Alonsomaniac]

I'm still very much intrigued by this line of thought, with so many people claiming that Vettel's true worth can only be judged if he drives an inferior car. The corollary, of course, is that the true champions are only the ones who have been able to win a WDC with a car that wasn't clearly the best of the field.

Some people argue that this logic dismisses, rather than reinforces, the notion that Alonso is the best driver on the grid, specifically because he hasn't won a WDC since he moved away from Renault, clearly a championship-winning car at the time.

If Vettel leaves Red Bull in favour of a team which has an inferior car, and stops winning, wouldn't that be the same as what Alonso did? Why, then, would we stop believing that Vettel is a good driver, whereas we still believe that Alonso is the best one around?

This is only an observation, of course, I still maintain that it is very difficult to judge who is the absolute best.


I never said he should drive "an inferior car" and I did not say he had to win the WDC in "an inferior car". Don't put words in my mouth please.
I said an "other car" , which could well be a good car, only not a so clearly superior car as he has up till now.
If he drives let's say a good McLaren and Fernando drives a good Ferrari, both similar competitive cars and he then beats Fernando, okay, then he is a great driver.

[brembo man]

Alonso for sure is the best in F1. I also think Webber was as good as Chin jr. He just wasn't allowed to do his best. Der Red Bull had it's favorite boy to bestow the best ride on.

[DIEK]

What a surprise, the only two who says Vettel is the best driver, are the Toro Rosso drivers... :rotfl

[Nova]

Vettel is good..but he reminds me of Damon Hill..remember him? I think it was 95, the Ferrari's looked fabulous and ran well, but Damon was most of the time quickest...A lot of it was down more to the car, I felt anyway, and while Vettel is really good, there r certain racing situations where I feel he def is not as good, or as complete a race car driver as Alonso.
Plus, I have to mention, watching Brasil..where Nando was going to readily give the podium to Felipe if the chance arose, which to me is a HUGE gesture, but yet Vettel DID have the opp to do that for Mark, who'se last race in F1 was Brasil, and he didnt even think about it.
Says a lot about a man.

[F2002]

I never said he should drive "an inferior car" and I did not say he had to win the WDC in "an inferior car". Don't put words in my mouth please.
I said an "other car" , which could well be a good car, only not a so clearly superior car as he has up till now.
If he drives let's say a good McLaren and Fernando drives a good Ferrari, both similar competitive cars and he then beats Fernando, okay, then he is a great driver.

For the sake of political correctness, let's rephrase "inferior car" to "other car" :-)

Assuming that this "other car" will have to be quite good (I trust you weren't referring to a midfield* or back marker) it then follows that, if we want a driver to prove himself by winning with a good but not clearly superior car, we'll have to dismiss most of Schumi's championships, both of Alonso's titles, and definitely that flash of brilliance by Jenson Button in 2009.

That leaves us with Kimi and Lewis (and Massa for a few minutes), because they are the only ones who won their championships with good but not so clearly superior cars recently.

*As an aside, let's not forget that Vettel's first ever victory was in a Toro Rosso

[Dino]

I have to mention, watching Brasil..where Nando was going to readily give the podium to Felipe if the chance arose, which to me is a HUGE gesture, but yet Vettel DID have the opp to do that for Mark, who'se last race in F1 was Brasil, and he didnt even think about it.
Says a lot about a man.

+1............ He will not give Mark his own race [Multi 21],........never mind a gift at Interlagos the last Aussie's F1 race !!
:-! :-! :-!
WITH DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP ALREADY WON!!!!!!!!!!

[Greig]

Giving up 3rd is probably a bit easier than giving up the win, and I imagine Webber would rather he had no favour from Seb anyway.

[giodap]

Giving up 3rd is probably a bit easier than giving up the win, and I imagine Webber would rather he had no favour from Seb anyway.

vettel owed webber the win from the whole multi 21 situation. webbers last race in formula 1 would of been great with the win and he would of took it. would of worked wanders for vettels likeability too

[Meiga]

Giving up 3rd is probably a bit easier than giving up the win, and I imagine Webber would rather he had no favour from Seb anyway.
I think that you do have a point, Greig. Not because giving third is easier (it probably is, btw), but because the meaning and emotional impact of having Massa in the podium in Brazil was far higher than that of having Webber on the top spot rather than on the second one.

[F2002]

I think that you do have a point, Greig. Not because giving third is easier (it probably is, btw), but because the meaning and emotional impact of having Massa in the podium in Brazil was far higher than that of having Webber on the top spot rather than on the second one.

+1

[Muhammad Ansib]

All I would say is that out of 39 wins for Vettel, None have been from while starting from below P3!, not even ONCE!!!!!

[Giallo 550]

All I would say is that out of 39 wins for Vettel, None have been from while starting from below P3!, not even ONCE!!!!!

Excellent point! Compare any of his first place finishes to Fernando's race to first in Valencia last season!

[Hermann]

All I would say is that out of 39 wins for Vettel, None have been from while starting from below P3!, not even ONCE!!!!!

I always had the impression that the aeriodynamic balance of the RB car- especially with vettel- was very vulnerable to following another car. Webber was better in dealing with that, but even he run into trouble at times.

That car was built to take pole and drive into the distance after the start, getting into the middle of a group of cars was not included in the construction.

Say what you want, but had Ferrari been able to build such a car, we would all have been screaming FORZA FERRARI on top of our lungs.

[Senna4Ever]

Giving up 3rd is probably a bit easier than giving up the win,

Vettel wouldn't have done this also ...



and I imagine Webber would rather he had no favour from Seb anyway.

exactly

And I mean: the gesture of Webber going to Alonso first and have chat instead with Horner/Vettel ... says much

[F2002]

All I would say is that out of 39 wins for Vettel, None have been from while starting from below P3!, not even ONCE!!!!!

That's because he made very few mistakes in qualifying and was able to start from the front row on most occasions.

He certainly had very good cars, with some illegal gadgets on perhaps, but none of those cars drove themselves to pole position.

[Hermann]

That's because he made very few mistakes in qualifying and was able to start from the front row on most occasions.

He certainly had very good cars, with some illegal gadgets on perhaps, but none of those cars drove themselves to pole position.

And its also much easier not to make any mistakes in qualifying when you have a really good strategy team in the back, first, and the car is very easy to drive and is planted on the track, second.

[F2002]

And its also much easier not to make any mistakes in qualifying when you have a really good strategy team in the back, first, and the car is very easy to drive and is planted on the track, second.

Assuming that the complexity of driving a Formula One car is comparable to a simulator game on the computer (which is not a sarcastic remark, because I positively have no clue as to how easy or difficult it is to handle a Formula One car in practice), I agree with you.

What I'm trying to say is that we often take these guys' driving for granted, I'm sure you've been to a few Grand Prix and know how fast those cars are. Completing one lap at that speed is remarkable, let alone winning all those races and a few championships.

[Hermann]

Assuming that the complexity of driving a Formula One car is comparable to a simulator game on the computer (which is not a sarcastic remark, because I positively have no clue as to how easy or difficult it is to handle a Formula One car in practice), I agree with you.

What I'm trying to say is that we often take these guys' driving for granted, I'm sure you've been to a few Grand Prix and know how fast those cars are. Completing one lap at that speed is remarkable, let alone winning all those races and a few championships.

The car is remarkable. I wish Ferrari was able to produce such a car.
But while we are at it, watch Fernando's pole lap in Monaco 2007 in the McLaren.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbgsP2HDGvk

[brembo man]

The rocket Red Bull wasn't designed to be in traffic sounds right for sure. If you remember neither was Vettel.

[Alessandra]

He's not a peer of any current drivers but, when in doubt, I always turn to Gary Anderson for a seemingly unbiased and intelligent opinion .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24988824


Sorry, just noticed this was written on 18th November, but it's still an opinion that fits current thinking.

[grinchy]

Just wondering, have we seen vettel win in an inferior car? we all know that Schumacher & Alonso have. Maybe your thinking of Monza
driving a Torro Rosso but just one thing about that was a one off. Alonso does it on a regular basis!

[Alonsomaniac]

Just wondering, have we seen vettel win in an inferior car? we all know that Schumacher & Alonso have. Maybe your thinking of Monza
driving a Torro Rosso but just one thing about that was a one off. Alonso does it on a regular basis!

Nobody wins in an inferior car. The days you win the car is good enough to win.

[pluto]

Nobody wins in an inferior car. The days you win the car is good enough to win.

of course you can win in an inferior car. the car being good enough to win does not mean it was not inferior.

[Alonso14]

Alonso's doughnuts appear to be much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIgI0ktiLY

[Katu]

Alonso's doughnuts appear to be much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIgI0ktiLY

true :-)

[ManFromMilan]

Alonso's doughnuts appear to be much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIgI0ktiLY



:clap Classic

[Hermann]

Alonso's doughnuts appear to be much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIgI0ktiLY

Every time i see Fernando in a cart he seems to have so much fun. And its one of the reasons why i like him, the fun he has when driving something that is 'close to the track'. Driving with his butt.
Its also one of the reasons why he likes a car he can 'throw' into the curve. With the 2005/2006 Renault he had such a special driving style, you could recognize him from the far. I miss those times *sigh*

[F2002]

With the 2005/2006 Renault he had such a special driving style, you could recognize him from the far. I miss those times *sigh*

+1

I know exactly what you mean and, alas, we haven't seen that attack in a Ferrari.

[ManFromMilan]

Finger crossed, we might see that next year in a Ferrari!:-D

[Bubbles]

Alonso's doughnuts appear to be much better as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIgI0ktiLY

It's down to car control.

[Katu]

Finger crossed, we might see that next year in a Ferrari!:-D

no, this would be coping, i hope Fernando finds himself unique and awsome way to celebrate

[Muhammad Ansib]

I always had the impression that the aeriodynamic balance of the RB car- especially with vettel- was very vulnerable to following another car. Webber was better in dealing with that, but even he run into trouble at times.

That car was built to take pole and drive into the distance after the start, getting into the middle of a group of cars was not included in the construction.

Say what you want, but had Ferrari been able to build such a car, we would all have been screaming FORZA FERRARI on top of our lungs.

I Pray that ferrari make that much downforce asap..yeah I agree with you, RBR's design philosophy to lead from the front but vettel still hasn't learnt to overtake cars neatly ..One most recent example is Hunagry 2013 and Adrain Newey after winning the WCC said that Hungary was the race which got away from them cuz they had installed the current max downforce aero upgrade(coupled with 2012 spec tyres) and still they couldnt win cuz of "issues with traffic" ie vettel's inability to Overtake Jenson and a few others !

[Muhammad Ansib]

Source "Hamilton won in Hungary, but both he and Newey believe that was only because Vettel got stuck behind slower cars - including Jenson Button's McLaren.Since then, Vettel has won six consecutive races and the Germansealed his fourth championship in a rowwith victory in India on Sunday.Newey said that Red Bull's domination during the second half of the season was also down to them improving their car - extra performance they were able to exploit because of the greater durability of the tyres."We made some decent steps," said Newey, Red Bull's chief technical officer. "We actually introduced quite a few parts to the car, some of them in Hungary.Play mediaSebastian Vettel - the season so far"And really Hungary was one that got away for us in as much as I feel that was a weekend we didn't manage to deliver the full potential of the car, partly through set-up, although partly what ruined our race, of course, was Seb getting stuck behind Jenson."

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/31738-Ferrari-and-Fernando-were-robbed-of-2013-title-by-Pirelli-NEWEY