Austrian GP 2014 Race Thread [Archive] - Page 2 - TheScuderia.net

Hornet

22nd June 2014, 16:39

Because simply put Alonso had clear air while Raikkonen was fighting with a pack of 4.
We should've pitted Kimi sooner than others like we did with Fernando in Spain,especially since the gap between Kimi and Fernando was around 6-7s and the Undercut wouldnt affect Fernanado but it would help Kimi to stay ahead of the pack and make a gap for the second stint.

The second pit stop didnt matter as Kimi already lost too much time. There is no doubt that the strategy on Kimi was bad.

Personally I'm not blaming Kimi here for anything, I do think he is struggling this weekend for reasons I do not know of. Not putting the blame on him, but with the current car and this track, somehow this combination did not work for Kimi this weekend.

What I'm trying to say is, this weekend we've seen Kimi struggling in Friday and Saturday. From FP1 right to qualifying Q3, we saw that Kimi is not comfortable with his car, he had many locks up and stuff like that. All these signs shows that Kimi was headed for a difficult race.

And indeed he had a difficult race. As I said, I'm not accusing Kimi of anything, but it's unreasonable I think, to expect things to change suddenly for Kimi on race day. Taking the gap between Kimi and Alonso by the end of the race, Kimi is about 0.4sec slower per lap on average. This is similar to what we've seen in free practice and qualifying, he was about 0.3 to 0.5 slower.

So I don't think we can blame the team for something that is expected to happen, which is that Kimi is struggling this weekend at this track. Hopefully it will be different at a different track later on.

fratelliferrari

22nd June 2014, 16:39

Kimi started first 10 races in 2013 and was 2nd on WDC till Hungary ,even ahead of Fernando. He had scored 133 points by then and only managed 50more by the end of the season. So having a better season start means nothing.
In 2009 by Hungary Massa had 22 while Raikkonen had 18 points, then Raikkonen had the best second half of the season bar Hamilton by 1 point.
So no, again, Massa never beat Raikkonen ,simple as that.

Check the 2008 standings! Felipe beat Kimi there, so never say never, simple as that :lol

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 16:40

Again endless/pointless discussion which present/past Ferrari driver is the best?!?!
WHO GIVES A SHOU ABOUT IT! Arent we all here for the greater good called Ferrari?!

Im all with you on this and i agree, im just trying to defend our current Ferrari driver which is driving for us and not Williams.
I have no clue why so many are crying over Massa leaving us to the point of trying to downgrade a great driver that is racing for us.

pluto

22nd June 2014, 16:42

Lets see.

2007-2009
Raikkonen : 1 WDC , 9 wins, 233 points
Massa: 0 WDC, 9 wins , 213 points

So no, statistically you're wrong as we can see that Raikkonen clearly beat Massa.
No, the Lotus were on par with us in terms of performance, not amazing cars as you make them sounds.
No Kimi doesnt looks like Massa, he doesn't getting beat by a rookie called Bottas , he is getting beat by Fernando Alonso, an 2 WDC which has proven his driving capabilities and talent in the past many many times.

oh so you are using the races after massa almost got killed in an accident. Classy and desperate you are.

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 16:43

Pretty much what we could have expect from the results from FP1 - FP3
nothing more nothing less ... after first pit stop session it was obvious that also we won't see a surprise today.
After that really a boring race

Interesting to compare the lap times of our drivers ...

SV won Monza in a Toro Rosso.
Designed by Adrian Newey himself
and Oliver Panis managed to win Monaco with Ligier
and Johnny Herber won Nuerburgring in Stewart-Ford
... so what?

but well: his performance today, especially when he ruined his front wing (luckily without destroying tire of Guiterrez) was magnific ... :thumb absolutly worth for a 4times champion ..

fratelliferrari

22nd June 2014, 16:44

oh so you are using the races after massa almost got killed in an accident. Classy and desperate you are.

:clap

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 16:45

Personally I'm not blaming Kimi here for anything, I do think he is struggling this weekend for reasons I do not know of. Not putting the blame on him, but with the current car and this track, somehow this combination did not work for Kimi this weekend.

What I'm trying to say is, this weekend we've seen Kimi struggling in Friday and Saturday. From FP1 right to qualifying Q3, we saw that Kimi is not comfortable with his car, he had many locks up and stuff like that. All these signs shows that Kimi was headed for a difficult race.

And indeed he had a difficult race. As I said, I'm not accusing Kimi of anything, but it's unreasonable I think, to expect things to change suddenly for Kimi on race day. Taking the gap between Kimi and Alonso by the end of the race, Kimi is about 0.4sec slower per lap on average. This is similar to what we've seen in free practice and qualifying, he was about 0.3 to 0.5 slower.

So I don't think we can blame the team for something that is expected to happen, which is that Kimi is struggling this weekend at this track. Hopefully it will be different at a different track later on.
There is no deny that Fernando drove amazingly this weekend and clearly beat Kimi in terms of pace. All im saying that our boys at Maranello for once more time didn't react properly to the situation or dunno what which put Kimi on even worse position as he was on this weekend already as you pointed above.

Im just pointing out the strategy , not trying to downgrade Kimi's poor performance.

F2008

22nd June 2014, 16:46

@Katu,@F2008,@Nero Horse,@Fratelliferrari, sorry if I missed others, sometimes there is no point in making a point and arguing about it,cuz certain members will always have TONS of reasons to back their point,so just let it go:)

Very true, sometimes you just need to accept that others have the right to have it wrong.

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 16:49

Spielberg, 22 June – Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen finished fifth and tenth respectively in this the eighth round of the Formula 1 World Championship. All four of the cars that finished ahead of the Spaniard in his F14-T were Mercedes-powered, underlining the current superiority of the German power unit. Nico Rosberg took his third win of the season for Mercedes, ahead of team-mate Lewis Hamilton, while Valtteri Bottas secured his first ever F1 podium finish, in third place for Williams. Despite progress made on the F14-T development front, the other teams are not resting on their laurels, hence the lack of change in the pecking order, on a day when the Red Bulls failed to shine at their home track.

After the start, Fernando who was fourth on the grid, immediately fell victim to Lewis Hamilton, who had charged up the field from ninth on the grid in the Mercedes. As Vettel had a problem in the Red Bull, Kimi was temporarily up one place to seventh. Felipe Massa maintained his lead from pole, while Bottas in the other Williams briefly lost second to Rosberg, only to take it back again on the same lap. By lap 10 of 71, Fernando was having a lonely time in fifth, 5.4 behind Hamilton. Both Ferrari men suffered badly from graining on the Supersoft and their pace improved slightly once they changed to the Softs, Fernando on lap 14 and Kimi on lap 15. In the case, of the Finn, his tyres were very worn by this stage and a slow in-lap dropped him down the field.

At this point, there was not a lot the two Prancing Horse men could do, even if Fernando showed stunning pace, running laps as fast or faster than the leaders in the final stint, after he and Kimi made their second and final pit stops on laps 47 and 44 respectively. If the general feeling after Saturday’s qualifying was that the two Williams would struggle to maintain their front row status in the race, in actual fact Bottas and Massa had a strong pace and the Mercedes duo had to work hard to re-establish their superiority. In the closing stages, Hamilton looked as though he might threaten his team-mate, but Rosberg held him off to the flag.

Mercedes is now on an impressive 301 points, over twice as many as second placed Red Bull in the Constructors’ classification, in which the Scuderia is third. In the Drivers’ Rosberg and Hamilton look similarly dominant, while the battle for third is closer, with Fernando on 79 points closing the gap to Daniel Ricciardo on 83. From a track with fast straights and medium speed corners, the championship now moves to the very different challenge that is Silverstone, where, with just one long straight, but plenty of high speed corners, the teams will face a very different challenge in the British GP.

See more at: http://formula1.ferrari.com/news/austrian-gp-mountain-climb-styrian-alps#sthash.b1LdgrK7.dpuf

FFFerrari

22nd June 2014, 16:50

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 16:51

Check the 2008 standings! Felipe beat Kimi there, so never say never, simple as that :lol
So now you're comparing the year you want to compare,while im providing you hard cold facts of their whole career as teammates.
2007 and 2009 Kimi beat Felipe and thats a fact.

oh so you are using the races after massa almost got killed in an accident. Classy and desperate you are.
Tough luck , thats racing ?
Why it is Raikkonen to blame for that and why by default it is assumed that Felipe would beat Kimi on a bad car? We saw how Felipe drives on a mediocre car many times before.
Felipe's last win was Brazilian GP in 2008 on the fastest or second fastest car that year.he had plenty of times to prove how good he is on a bad/mediocre car but he didnt.

stefa

22nd June 2014, 16:51

Im all with you on this and i agree, im just trying to defend our current Ferrari driver which is driving for us and not Williams.
I have no clue why so many are crying over Massa leaving us to the point of trying to downgrade a great driver that is racing for us.

:thumb

Katu

22nd June 2014, 16:53

@Katu,@F2008,@Nero Horse,@Fratelliferrari, sorry if I missed others, sometimes there is no point in making a point and arguing about it,cuz certain members will always have TONS of reasons to back their point,so just let it go:)

don't worry, i just enjoy some people trying to find excuses after excuses after excuses. fun anyway

Greig

22nd June 2014, 16:56

Really? Do you have a crystal ball with which you can predict the future? :-)

You can go back and read, many did not think Kimi would be any better than Massa so not sure why I need a crystal ball.

Katu

22nd June 2014, 16:56

Greig

22nd June 2014, 16:58

Gotta love how quick people are coming in to put Raikkonen on fire after this race, despite the fact of a bad strategy that ruined the majority of his race.

It's not just THIS race though, is it. Forget Massa as he does not matter any more and we can't really defend Kimi being crap by saying others would be just as crap.

F1NAC

22nd June 2014, 16:59

now we can start testing for 2015, and make our **** PU better for next season. There are no excuses for next season. Marmorini do your job

*TSN MODs*

Please, everyone, no swearing, you feel the need to do so filter (star out) the swear word. Warnings have and will be handed out, also bans and suspensions.

fratelliferrari

22nd June 2014, 17:00

So now you're comparing the year you want to compare,while im providing you hard cold facts of their whole career as teammates.
2007 and 2009 Kimi beat Felipe and thats a fact.

Tough luck , thats racing ?
Why it is Raikkonen to blame for that and why by default it is assumed that Felipe would beat Kimi on a bad car? We saw how Felipe drives on a mediocre car many times before.
Felipe's last win was Brazilian GP in 2008 on the fastest or second fastest car that year.he had plenty of times to prove how good he is on a bad/mediocre car but he didnt.

I don't do that at all :-! You are comparing Felipe and Kimi in 3 seasons where Felipe only drove 2,5 seasons so that's not a comparison, at least that's what they have told me at school!

Greig

22nd June 2014, 17:01

Ok then, you obviously know better which driver is the best choice than all the people working at Ferrari. :-)

Do you think they had a staff vote at Maranello on who to sign? No it would be 1 or 2 people making that decision and like you or me they have an opinion, Stefano wanted Kimi based on his opinion not based on any secret information that only a Ferrari employee has.

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 17:01

Come on, atleast admit that they could for once pit Kimi first during first stint and Alonso second and see how that affects their races. Kimi had to drive one full lap on the supersofts after they had gone "over the cliff", lost several seconds and ended behind some slower cars. And as you know, passing on this track is hard if your powerunit doesn't have a Mercedes label on it or the other guys tyres aren't shot.

At best he could have finished P8, he was struggling, but it doesn't help that the team seems unable to come up with solid strategies for both drivers.

You do realize that pit strategies are decided together with the drivers, right? You seem to think that Kimi is just an innocent victim while the team is trying to come up with the worst possible pit strategy for Kimi and make him lose places on purpose LOL. All the pit strategies are always made in collaboration with the drivers. Kimi just had a different strategy than Alonso, simple as that.

Greig

22nd June 2014, 17:03

Lets see.

2007-2009
Raikkonen : 1 WDC , 9 wins, 233 points
Massa: 0 WDC, 9 wins , 213 points

So no, statistically you're wrong as we can see that Raikkonen clearly beat Massa.
No, the Lotus were on par with us in terms of performance, not amazing cars as you make them sounds.
No Kimi doesnt looks like Massa, he doesn't getting beat by a rookie called Bottas , he is getting beat by Fernando Alonso, an 2 WDC which has proven his driving capabilities and talent in the past many many times.

I like how you count the points Kimi scored when Massa was not even driving....wonder why you would do that....

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 17:03

Kimi had to drive one full lap on the supersofts after they had gone "over the cliff", lost several seconds and ended behind some slower cars.

Sorry but what are the hell are you talking about ... "over the cliff"
Lap times from car #7
Lap - Time
7 - 1:15.814
8 - 1:15.828
9 - 1:15.832
10 - 1:15.777
11 - 1:15.361
12 - 1:15.428
13 - 1:15.660
14 - 1:15.840
15P - 1:20.657
16 - 1:33.355
17 - 1:15.531
18 - 1:15.252
19 - 1:14.883
*P for Pit stop
car #20 pitted in lap 10 ... so for 4 laps no car between Kimi and Alonso ... so this 1:15:x represent much of what was possible for Kimi ... and so show me the sign of "over the cliff"? must have been right at the moment when Alonso was going into pits

lap times from car #14
lap - time
7 - 1:15.002
8 - 1:14.872
9 - 1:15.024
10 - 1:14.998
11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530
14P - 1:19.262
15 - 1:31.700
16 - 1:14.754
17 - 1:14.777

but you guys won't get tired to find always something else. And not that also Kimi seems not able to be on the same level of Alonso constantly over the whole season. And struggles with non-perfect car more than Alonso is ...

Kimi should look a bit more on In and Out Lap?

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:05

however i need to say one thing more - Kimi also has a say when he feels like his tyres are done and he needs to pit. he didn't make that call, then too bad for him. as i recall he did pit second time long before Fernando did (of course i slept for 40% of the race...)
Thats the thing, there was no reason on why Kimi pit after Fernando as Fernando had a safe distance from the pack we could've pitted Kimi sooner to maintain the lead over others.As soon you see someone form the pack pitting you follow up immediately , you do not wait 2 laps. Fernando didnt gain anything by pitting first but Kimi would thats my point.
Second pit stop didnt matter as time was lost and Kimi was way too in the back to try and get advantage over a good stop.

It's not just THIS race though, is it. Forget Massa as he does not matter any more and we can't really defend Kimi being crap by saying others would be just as crap.
I would totally agree with you if Kimi had the same time that Felipe had with us. Thats is a big difference that many tend to ignore. Yes Fernando excels in these conditions its just Kimi cannot drive a car like Fernando in these conditions .
Im defending Kimi as we defended Felipe for many many years before we started to talk about his replacement. Nobody was judging Felipe on his first year with Ferrari did we ?

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:13

I don't do that at all :-! You are comparing Felipe and Kimi in 3 seasons where Felipe only drove 2,5 seasons so that's not a comparison, at least that's what they have told me at school!

I like how you count the points Kimi scored when Massa was not even driving....wonder why you would do that....

As hard it may sound but Felipe accident is part of racing. You do not see me making excuses about 2003 were Kimi lost the championship just by 3 points and due to hokenheim crash ? Neither about Raikkonen 2005 Nurbuirgring last lap fiasco and so on.
Im presenting the things as they are. heck the fact alone that Raikkonen got 1 WDC and Massa 0 is enough to showcase the who won argument .
Felipe had many times to prove that he is up there like Raikkonen and Alonso did in the past but he didnt and the rest is just pure excuses .

Katu

22nd June 2014, 17:21

Thats the thing, there was no reason on why Kimi pit after Fernando as Fernando had a safe distance from the pack we could've pitted Kimi sooner to maintain the lead over others.As soon you see someone form the pack pitting you follow up immediately , you do not wait 2 laps. Fernando didnt gain anything by pitting first but Kimi would thats my point.
Second pit stop didnt matter as time was lost and Kimi was way too in the back to try and get advantage over a good stop.

I would totally agree with you if Kimi had the same time that Felipe had with us. Thats is a big difference that many tend to ignore. Yes Fernando excels in these conditions its just Kimi cannot drive a car like Fernando in these conditions .
Im defending Kimi as we defended Felipe for many many years before we started to talk about his replacement. Nobody was judging Felipe on his first year with Ferrari did we ?

what 'we' are you talking about, you joined this forum after Massa left, there's no proof you ever supported him.

and second - did you hear Kimi saying 'pit me' and team not responding to that?

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 17:23

You can go back and read, many did not think Kimi would be any better than Massa so not sure why I need a crystal ball.

Yes, but people's opinions aren't the deciding factor in what could actually happen on the track, is it? You and others thought that Kimi wouldn't be any better than Massa and at the moment you're being proven correct, but it could just as well have turned out differently if Kimi would be performing the same way as he did in 2012/013, and that's what Ferrari was hoping for when they decided to hire him. Nobody really knows how a driver could perform in different seasons and in different teams. Would Kimi have struggled the same way with last year's Ferrari F138? Maybe and maybe not.

FFFerrari

22nd June 2014, 17:29

Sorry but what are the hell are you talking about ... "over the cliff"
Lap times from car #7
15P - 1:20.657
16 - 1:33.355
Kimi should look a bit more on In and Out Lap?

I didn't have the times to look at, it just looked horrible watching the Lap 15 when he pitted in. Obviously the tyres were good for 13, maybe 14 laps as you could see from both of their times. And yes, he could do better on his in and out laps. "Over the cliff" was an exaggeration, sorry about that.

And why does it seem that they never use undercutting as an tactic for Kimi but seem to try push for a maximum amount of laps out of the softer tyres? Obviously they can't pit both guys at the same lap, but it does seem odd. I still believe Kimi would have been better off with a familiar race engineer like Stella than they current cluster**** that is having a race engineer that doesn't really speak understandable english and a different guy on the radio. And I really don't want to defend Kimi anymore than that, he had a shoddy race after a shoddy weekend, but he really doesn't deserve a lynchmob either.

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:30

what 'we' are you talking about, you joined this forum after Massa left, there's no proof you ever supported him.

and second - did you hear Kimi saying 'pit me' and team not responding to that?

Since when a join date on a forum represent if i am/was a fan ?
The displease for Massa was quite obvious since 2010 , either your fan or not.

As for the second, its quite simple.
Drivers aren't unaware of everything happening during the race hence why the guys at Maranello are the ones deciding on the strategy, they are there for a reason as they got a clearer picture of whats going on, drivers give inputs and ask their engineers and they get answers accordingly.
Im not sure why youre trying to defend our strategy team when in the past it was proven many times that we got problems in that department.

Greig

22nd June 2014, 17:32

As hard it may sound but Felipe accident is part of racing. You do not see me making excuses about 2003 were Kimi lost the championship just by 3 points and due to hokenheim crash ? Neither about Raikkonen 2005 Nurbuirgring last lap fiasco and so on.
Im presenting the things as they are. heck the fact alone that Raikkonen got 1 WDC and Massa 0 is enough to showcase the who won argument .
Felipe had many times to prove that he is up there like Raikkonen and Alonso did in the past but he didnt and the rest is just pure excuses .

Not sure what 2003 or 2005 has to do with the matter? You are telling us you are posting stats that show Kimi beat Massa but you are including races when Massa was lying in a hospital bed, I am sure you will agree its pretty silly to suggest those stats are a true picture. It would be like me counting up all the points scored by Massa at Ferrari and comparing them to Kimi and declaring Massa wins....yes off course you can revert to the WDC and say it points to Kimi being better but we all know it really does not.

Greig

22nd June 2014, 17:34

Since when a join date on a forum represent if i am/was a fan ?
The displease for Massa was quite obvious since 2010 , either your fan or not.

As for the second, its quite simple.
Drivers aren't unaware of everything happening during the race hence why the guys at Maranello are the ones deciding on the strategy, they are there for a reason as they got a clearer picture of whats going on, drivers give inputs and ask their engineers and they get answers accordingly.
Im not sure why youre trying to defend our strategy team when in the past it was proven many times that we got problems in that department.

Kimi's strategy would be better if 1) he quals better 2) is ahead of Alonso 3)has better race pace.

Simple enough, no strategy is ever going to overcome these 3 crucial points sorry to tell you.

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 17:39

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:42

Not sure what 2003 or 2005 has to do with the matter? You are telling us you are posting stats that show Kimi beat Massa but you are including races when Massa was lying in a hospital bed, I am sure you will agree its pretty silly to suggest those stats are a true picture. It would be like me counting up all the points scored by Massa at Ferrari and comparing them to Kimi and declaring Massa wins....yes off course you can revert to the WDC and say it points to Kimi being better but we all know it really does not.
The examples i provided are the excuses i was referring about.Racing accident are part of the game ,same as happen to Michael and his accident in 1999 at Silverstone.
You cannot simply assume that Massa would outscore Raikkonen in 2009, thats false and i already pointed that first half of the season means nothing.
If we really want to compare Raikkonen and Massa we take down their whole career and i tell you it does looks grim for Massa in comparison.
Massa is great driver but not on par with Raikkonen, yes it is opinion but Raikkonen proved many times before what kind of driver he is and what he can do.

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:44

Kimi's strategy would be better if 1) he quals better 2) is ahead of Alonso 3)has better race pace.

Simple enough, no strategy is ever going to overcome these 3 crucial points sorry to tell you.

Im taking into account as the things were at that moment of the race. Like we pit Fernando in Spain due to guys from the back even when Kimi was much closer to him the same thing we should've done here,especially with Fernando having a very good gap in front to secure his position even if he came in 1 lap latter.
Im not making hypothetical assumptions im just analyzing the race.

Greig

22nd June 2014, 17:48

The examples i provided are the excuses i was referring about.Racing accident are part of the game ,same as happen to Michael and his accident in 1999 at Silverstone.
You cannot simply assume that Massa would outscore Raikkonen in 2009, thats false and i already pointed that first half of the season means nothing.
If we really want to compare Raikkonen and Massa we take down their whole career and i tell you it does looks grim for Massa in comparison.
Massa is great driver but not on par with Raikkonen, yes it is opinion but Raikkonen proved many times before what kind of driver he is and what he can do.

You are clearly being ridiculous and reaching a very sad level of desperation. I never said Massa would outscore Kimi in 2009, but he was up to the time of his accident and thats where the comparison ends as Massa did not race with Kimi after his accident. You are embarassing yourself if you continue with this. Kimi has proved many times how great he is, has he really? so why are you fascinated with comparing such a great like Kimi with Massa? compare him to an Alonso or Schumacher and he is nowhere near a great driver.

Hornet

22nd June 2014, 17:50

I didn't have the times to look at, it just looked horrible watching the Lap 15 when he pitted in. Obviously the tyres were good for 13, maybe 14 laps as you could see from both of their times. And yes, he could do better on his in and out laps. "Over the cliff" was an exaggeration, sorry about that.

And why does it seem that they never use undercutting as an tactic for Kimi but seem to try push for a maximum amount of laps out of the softer tyres? Obviously they can't pit both guys at the same lap, but it does seem odd. I still believe Kimi would have been better off with a familiar race engineer like Stella than they current cluster**** that is having a race engineer that doesn't really speak understandable english and a different guy on the radio. And I really don't want to defend Kimi anymore than that, he had a shoddy race after a shoddy weekend, but he really doesn't deserve a lynchmob either.

There are many factors that goes into strategy planning, many of them which we are not aware of to make any fair judgement of how good a strategy was. One common point missing is this. Whenever you pit, you risk coming out of a slower car who isn't lapped, so they are not going to make way for you and you'll get held up. Therefore reacting to what others does is good and all, but once you take this factor into consideration, you'll see that it's not as simple as just reacting to what others are doing. Blindly reacting could end with worse outcomes if you are stuck behind slower cars.

Therefore it's not as simple as saying look, those cars pitted earlier, we should have undercut them. Well, first of all, how would we know they would have pitted at that lap for us to undercut them, we don't know. Secondly, whether you are undercutting someone or reacting, there are many factors which may work against us, such as traffic as I pointed out.

Now someone may say, Kimi could have overtook any slower cars no problem. Well, if he could do that, he could surely overtake any car he is said to be "stuck" behind after his "late" stop. If overtaking was too difficult that he can't do that, then chances are he may not have cleared any traffic.

Finally, there will always be a certain element of gamble in strategy, sometimes we come out better than expected, sometimes we don't.

Therefore pit strategy is something that is very complex and we can't possibly judge from the outside.

FA fan

22nd June 2014, 17:53

This is what Alonso said about massa yesterday:

"I always said that Felipe is very, very fast," Alonso said after Massa's Red Bull Ring pole. "Few people believed me, but I still think he was the fastest teammate I've had."

Now some people might argue they know more than the person who was his teammate for 4 years!!

LivingHitokiri

22nd June 2014, 17:59

You are clearly being ridiculous and reaching a very sad level of desperation. I never said Massa would outscore Kimi in 2009, but he was up to the time of his accident and thats where the comparison ends as Massa did not race with Kimi after his accident. You are embarassing yourself if you continue with this. Kimi has proved many times how great he is, has he really? so why are you fascinated with comparing such a great like Kimi with Massa? compare him to an Alonso or Schumacher and he is nowhere near a great driver.
Apparently you missed the people i was quoting before you jumped into the discussion .
Yes and im pointing you out on why first half of the season means nothing as many things can change and i even provided evidence on it.

Yes, unless you are new to Formula 1 you would've have seen Raikkonen fighting with both Alonso and Shumacher for championships and wins plenty of times in the past so yes, Raikkonen proved his worth plenty of times in the past and no mater how much you try to downgrade him that wont change.

I wasn't comparing Massa with Raikkonen, i was trying to correct the delusion that Massa is better or was better than Raikkonen which many seem to have. Comparing Massa to Webber would be much more realistic in my opinion.

Ed Harley

22nd June 2014, 18:00

So general opinion here seem to be that KR should go or let go?

Greig

22nd June 2014, 18:11

Apparently you missed the people i was quoting before you jumped into the discussion .
Yes and im pointing you out on why first half of the season means nothing as many things can change and i even provided evidence on it.

Yes, unless you are new to Formula 1 you would've have seen Raikkonen fighting with both Alonso and Shumacher for championships and wins plenty of times in the past so yes, Raikkonen proved his worth plenty of times in the past and no mater how much you try to downgrade him that wont change.

I wasn't comparing Massa with Raikkonen, i was trying to correct the delusion that Massa is better or was better than Raikkonen which many seem to have. Comparing Massa to Webber would be much more realistic in my opinion.

I never missed anything what other people said is not what I said. Yes the 1st half proves nothing for all we know Massa could have continued to outscore Kimi as he was doing before the accident, that is the point that we do not know and that is why you including Kimi's points when Massa was not racing smacks of desperation. I am sorry but I must have missed Kimi racing against MS as a team mate, and well we see him now against Alonso and you want to say he compares? LOL seriously you are digging a very big hole here. Kimi is doing no better against Alonso than Massa was and that is pretty clear to anyone watching.

You can continue to try and tell us Kimi is a great, up there with MS and Alonso but you are going to have to give much better facts than he outscored Massa (with some help) to prove it sadly, you are off course just trying to make out your opinion is right and nothing else matters. But anyway Massa v Kimi will never change what is happening now and that is Kimi not performing against Alonso so off course we could discuss that rather than trying to avoid it, maybe with you being such a great Kimi fan you can give us insights as to how a great driver like Kimi is nowhere near to threaten Alonso.

h3ro

22nd June 2014, 18:13

I hate seeing Fernando's prime being wasted by these terrible cars that the Scuderia is producing. There are no excuses, everyone has the same rules to exploit.

The people making the cars just aren't as good as they like to tell everyone they are.

I'm a frustrated tifoso right now.

radosav

22nd June 2014, 18:14

I am Alonso fan! About Kimi !The driver who fought five times for WDC with three different teams and won one WDC ! Not to mention how many victories he won!
There aren't many like him!
But what is going on with him now, i have no clue!

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 18:15

So general opinion here seem to be that KR should go or let go?

No, not at all, I personally believe Kimi is a very good driver and as a Ferrari fan, my only wish is that Kimi, together with the team, would be able to sort out whatever issues he's having with the car and start bringing in good results. I don't think he should go or be let go, but I'm only speaking for myself here.

wisepie

22nd June 2014, 18:17

As a complete Ferrari and Felipe fan, the race was disappointing but not surprising given the Mercedes dominance so far. I find it incredible that the engine freeze seems to have reduced us to mid-field contenders, how was that allowed? Fernando must have the patience of a saint and Kimi summed it up asking for some power, Felipe managed to get a decent result but that's about it. Roll on 2015. :Hmm

Ed Harley

22nd June 2014, 18:18

No, not at all, I personally believe Kimi is a very good driver and as a Ferrari fan, my only wish is that Kimi, together with the team, would be able to sort out whatever issues he's having with the car and start bringing in good results. I don't think he should go or be let go, but I'm only speaking for myself here.
Constructive words. :wave

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 18:20

So general opinion here seem to be that KR should go or let go?

the general opinion here is that with a decent car we wouldn't have questioned the drivers at all
or in other words ... Alonso pushed the car to places where it wasn't designed for. And over the years people seemed to ignore the truth that whoever promised next year a winner car was a liar.

ntukza

22nd June 2014, 18:21

Yes Fernando excels in these conditions its just Kimi cannot drive a car like
Fernando in these conditions .
What conditions, a bad car? That says a lot all by itself

Alonso14

22nd June 2014, 18:21

So general opinion here seem to be that KR should go or let go?

No need to sack him. Even if we had Alonso in both cars it wouldn't have made a difference this season - the car is simply not competitive enough. I think Kimi is best consistently slower than Alonso driver available so if Ferrari have a race-winning car I believe is the best guy available to suppor Fernando 's bid for WDC.

Ed Harley

22nd June 2014, 18:22

http://formula1.ferrari.com/news/austrian-gp-kimi-raikkonen-a-difficult-sunday

Kimi Raikkonen: “This was another very difficult race for me, despite having gone in a different direction yesterday to try and improve the performance. Unfortunately, it did not bring the improvements I’d hoped for and again here I found myself fighting the handling of the car.

At the start I made up one place, but already on the second lap I began to have a problem with the brakes overheating and this meant I had to slow down. At the time of my first pit stop, my tyres were completely worn and on my in-lap alone I lost two places. We should definitely have stopped sooner. Compared to the start of the season, progress has been made, even if there’s still a lot to do as our speed still doesn’t allow us to fight for the top places.”

http://formula1.ferrari.com/news/austrian-gp-fernando-alonso-my-race-season

Fernando Alonso: “I think that I can consider this to be my best race of the season, because finishing eighteen seconds off the Mercedes in a race without a Safety Car or any particular incidents, is a good result. It was impossible to keep Hamilton behind me and fifth place is really the best we could do today, because the first four cars were quicker and therefore deserved to finish ahead of us.

We pushed hard all race without any problems, which means that little by little, we are improving. Sure, there’s still a long way to go but the aim is still to do well and score points. Each track is a different story and we will always try our best.”

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 18:31

Marco Mattiacci: “The way this season is going becomes particularly evident when one races at a track where what counts the most is the power of the car. Today, we tried to get the most out of what we have and we believe we have taken another small step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, we were unable to demonstrate that with Kimi, who did not have an easy time on this circuit, but we are sure that with the progressive improvement of the car he too will be able to show what he’s capable of. Fernando could not have done any better today. He managed to maintain a great pace for the whole race, at times even quicker than the leaders and this must serve as an incentive to continue developing the F14 T. Overall the gaps are coming down and the number of teams fighting it out behind the frontrunners is increasing. So our aim is to exploit all our potential to be at the front of the pursuing group.”

Pat Fry: “After a good start both Kimi and Fernando struggled a lot on the Supersoft because of graining on the rears which slowed their pace. In this stint, a gap grew to the Mercedes-engined cars which made the most of their superior power down the three straights. Apart from the actual result, we can nevertheless be pleased because in the second and third stints, especially with Fernando, we were one of the quickest cars on track and that shows that, race by race, we are making small steps forward.
Kimi struggled more than Fernando and unfortunately, with him we paid a high price for his in-lap before his first stop when the rear tyres were on the limit. Now we must look ahead to the next race in Silverstone, a very different circuit to this one, where we can also expect the Red Bulls to be back on form. As usual we will try and be in the fight and to prepare our car as well as possible for this new challenge.”

See more at: http://formula1.ferrari.com/

h3ro

22nd June 2014, 18:32

Fernando Alonso: “I think that I can consider this to be my best race of the season, because finishing eighteen seconds off the Mercedes in a race without a Safety Car or any particular incidents, is a good result."
What a depressing quote. :/

Hornet

22nd June 2014, 18:53

What a depressing quote. :/

Well, Alonso is aware of the situation we're in. Right now, what he and the team wants, is to see us improve. As unfortunate as it may seem to be, being happy with 18 sec behind, it is better than 40 or 60 secs in the past, and it shows we're able to close the gap to Merc. If we want to beat them next year, we need to catch up to them first.

stefa

22nd June 2014, 19:08

DIEK

22nd June 2014, 19:09

Alonso is the only non mercedes-powered pilot what has been scored the last eight races...

Ed Harley

22nd June 2014, 19:12

KR said in recent interview that for him, as long as they race for positions 5 to 12, it does not matter much in which order they finish. I tend to agree as they aim for something else.

AfterLife

22nd June 2014, 19:15

Well, Alonso is aware of the situation we're in. Right now, what he and the team wants, is to see us improve. As unfortunate as it may seem to be, being happy with 18 sec behind, it is better than 40 or 60 secs in the past, and it shows we're able to close the gap to Merc. If we want to beat them next year, we need to catch up to them first.

What a realistic understanding about the situation. Well done:thumb. The point is we are progressing and closing the gap to Mercedes and chassis is good imo but i don't know why our front pull-rod suspension always annoys me! :Hmm

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 19:38

Well, Alonso is aware of the situation we're in. Right now, what he and the team wants, is to see us improve. As unfortunate as it may seem to be, being happy with 18 sec behind, it is better than 40 or 60 secs in the past, and it shows we're able to close the gap to Merc. If we want to beat them next year, we need to catch up to them first.

Let's wait for next race to take a conclusion about our progress
Alonso himself said, that Austria is a different track, short only few corners ... etc. etc.
so I wouldn't be to sure ... even with Alonso being happy on official Ferrari statement about "only" 18 sec. behind the winner.
Silverstone could look different again.

PURE PASSION

22nd June 2014, 20:01

Check out @alo_oficial's Tweet: https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/480725619207340033
Why difficult in silverstone??

Senna4Ever

22nd June 2014, 20:05

Check out @alo_oficial's Tweet: https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/480725619207340033
Why difficult in silverstone??

because of fast and medium speed corners there?

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 20:18

because of fast and medium speed corners there?

If anything Silverstone should suit our car even better than this Austrian track. Silverstone is very similar to the Chinese track, both are front-limited with fast sweeping corners and temperatures should be lower there as well. It's the rear-limited tracks with slow corners where our car struggles the most.

I think Alonso is just being cautious.

Kristof_F40

22nd June 2014, 20:33

If anything Silverstone should suit our car even better than this Austrian track. Silverstone is very similar to the Chinese track, both are front-limited with fast sweeping corners and temperatures should be lower there as well. It's the rear-limited tracks with slow corners where our car struggles the most.

I think Alonso is just being cautious.
RBR will also be better at Silverstone, unless they have reliability issues

Winter

22nd June 2014, 20:42

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 20:53

RBR will also be better at Silverstone, unless they have reliability issues

Unfortunately yes, Silverstone will definitely suit RB as well.....but hopefully it will suit our car better. ;-)

Greig

22nd June 2014, 21:02

Spain GP.

See point 3.

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 21:05

Spain GP.

Speaking of Spanish GP, I think it would be good for you to read this article>>> http://pitlanetalk.wordpress.com/

mark p

22nd June 2014, 21:09

Latest updates seem good. It is unrealistic to think Ferrari can just jump straight up to challenge Merc but as the year has gone on for the 1st time in many years the performance seems to be getting better on a gentle upwards curve. Today the track was the worst type like Bharain or Canada. This was an engine track hence Williams with same engine kept close to Merc as Mercs superior aero could not be used. See how many Merc engine cars came to the fore and RB were knowhere after being best of the rest for so long. Hopefully next race they can improve a bit again and although Merc will be too far infront if they can fight RedBull at Silverstone it would be a huge boost. Interesting Kimi on the radio when told needed a few more tenths a lap replied give me more power not give me more downforce.

Alonso14

22nd June 2014, 21:12

Spain GP.

Yes. Let's completely ignore the fact that ALO's is the smartest guy out there and he chose to go to a sub-optimal strategy (3 stop) to beat his teammate. He chose it mid-race. When was the last time you saw Kimi having the ability to adapt mid-race to strategy? Remember British GP 2013 when Kimi said that he thinks they made the wrong choice not to pit under the safety car? Do you think ALO wouldn't have pushed for a pit stop if he thought that's the way to go? "I'm all about the driving" is a cute slogan for poster but F1 is a thinking's man game and ALO show us week-in, week-out why.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=923&graf=3&dr1=Kimi%20R%C3%A4ikk%C3%B6nen&dr2=Fernando%20Alonso

Kimi was faster in 10 laps (out of 71) in the race. I think that's telling enough.

Winter

22nd June 2014, 21:13

Speaking of Spanish GP, I think it would be good for you to read this article>>> http://pitlanetalk.wordpress.com/

There was a good reason to try something like that in Austria. Alonso had enough cap to be protected from Kimis undercut and Kimi wouldn't have lost what, 4-5 places?

ntukza

22nd June 2014, 21:33

I am amazed how you people can go on and on and on with pointless discussion about who is better... What is the point?!?
Than again it is your choice, and this is free world with freedom and liberty of speech and thinking!

You and me both! On and on about who's to blame for the Massa Perez crash (was it Perez? I can't remember. That's how much I couldn't care less). On and on about Massa vs Kimi. On and on about Alonso vs Kimi. Gosh!

Kyss4k

22nd June 2014, 22:20

Greig

22nd June 2014, 22:33

You and me both! On and on about who's to blame for the Massa Perez crash (was it Perez? I can't remember. That's how much I couldn't care less). On and on about Massa vs Kimi. On and on about Alonso vs Kimi. Gosh!

People talking about F1 on a F1 forum will never catch on.....

Nero Horse

22nd June 2014, 22:50

Sorry to say, but Kimi is just bad. Pitting in the same lap as Alonso, as some of you wish, would not change a thing. He was constantly slower then Alonso and pitting him lap earlier he would have ended down in the pack as well. He is just another Felipe - fast in a great car. I will never understand why we re-signed with him, when we already fired him once and did not take someone young and fresh - Bianchi. He would not be worse then Kimi. Maybe he would not be better either, but at least he would be learning from the best.

Ferrari wanted an experienced and consistent driver who could bring a lot of points and help us in the WCC, unfortunately thus far Kimi just hasn't been able to deliver, for various reasons. But I think we should give him a bit more time, before making any final judgement. And I'm pretty sure that Bianchi will drive for us in the future anyway, it's only a matter of time.

Alonso14

22nd June 2014, 22:51

I am amazed how you people can go on and on and on with pointless discussion about who is better... What is the point?!?
Than again it is your choice, and this is free world with freedom and liberty of speech and thinking!

I don't get it either. Why would anyone discuss anything F1 race related in the Race Thread. Shocking.

I vote for banning of any discussion regarding our car in the Development Thread. It just makes no sense to me.

What's next? People discussing the Qualy session in Qualification Thread!?!? Imagine that !!!

Yoda401

22nd June 2014, 23:31

Stebandelareina

22nd June 2014, 23:40

Alonso had problems this gp with the ers and cant deploy full power, plus, he was told to save fuel in the last stint.
Alonso is having the same problems in the car. PU, brake by wire isues in almost every race.

Meiga

23rd June 2014, 00:47

People on here complaining about Raikkonen's poor performance... despite the fact that nearly every race this season his car has had problems. Today ferrari told him to slow down and cool his brakes.. ON LAP 2!!!

In addition to that, again his ferrari power unit was losing power! Alonso has done well, but his ferrari has remained problem free nearly all season.

This is absolutely incorrect. Alonso has simply driven around the issues that he has been facing on every GP, particularly PU-related ones. By the way, from his words todoay it would seem that not just the two Ferraris, but also other cars have PU issues on the first laps.

Alonsomaniac

23rd June 2014, 01:25

Kimi Raikkonen is defenitely NOT a bad driver! He never was.
What we do is comparing every driver who gets in a Ferrari to Fernando Alonso. We did that with Felipe and now it's Kimi's turn.
But is that fair to do?
Almost everyone in F1 agrees that Fernando is the best driver out there and we Ferrarifans say the same. But at the same moment we expect the other Ferraridriver to be at the same level.
I don't think Fernando is much faster (if any) in a perfect car than other drivers - like Kimi.
Fernando's talent is that he is fast in ANY car, good or bad. He always is able to extract the max or even more frome a not so good car.
Only very few drivers have that talent.
Kimi Raikkonen is blindingly fast in a car that suits his style of driving. If the car does not answer to his likes, he has trouble adapting, like most drivers.

Nova

23rd June 2014, 02:03

Hornet

23rd June 2014, 05:26

I see the driver comparisons coming up again..sheez, u guys just dont get it.
Who cares? I mean..really..isnt it pointless?
Heres an idea..give them both a car that is capable of winning..let em race...then lets see.
Sitting here arguing about 18 seconds, or who scored what..tada tada...its all a wash, isnt it?
See above...give them a car in which they can both duke it out..I havent seen such a car yet..
And please dont tell me you have, because as far as Ferrari is concerned..you havent.

I dont mean to sound kranky, I just miss Formula 1...

Two points you're missing here I think.

First of all, both drivers are free to do the best they can. The car isn't perfect, but they have the same car and it's their duty to deliver the best result the car is capable of. Alonso is doing a much better job at delivering the points, and that's fine by me. Unfortunately, that isn't for some people, and they feel the need to lay the blame on the team. Hence we see these discussions.

Secondly, many people wanted a change in Ferrari's second seat last year because the think it can improve the result. It has to be that, right, otherwise why would anyone want change for the worse. Well that did not happen. The change did occur, but the result remain the same. Now you could either admit we were wrong about it, or continue to be in denial and blame the team for screwing up the new driver. Unfortunately, some people chose the second, which is why we always come back to these discussion.

stefa

23rd June 2014, 06:25

I don't get it either. Why would anyone discuss anything F1 race related in the Race Thread. Shocking.

I vote for banning of any discussion regarding our car in the Development Thread. It just makes no sense to me.

What's next? People discussing the Qualy session in Qualification Thread!?!? Imagine that !!!

I almost died laughing... You are so funny....

tifosi1993

23rd June 2014, 09:38

Kimi Raikkonen is blindingly fast in a car that suits his style of driving.

So he never had a car that suits his driving style?

F1NAC

23rd June 2014, 09:43

Kimi said after the race that after 2 laps team said that he had to slow down because his brakes were overheated....Disaster

Ed Harley

23rd June 2014, 10:05

So he never had a car that suits his driving style?
If you imply that he has never been fast I cannot agree with you. McLarens and 2007 Ferrari suited him quite well. 2008 Ferrari was OK until the front end was changed.

Greig

23rd June 2014, 10:23

Kimi was doing well in 2008 until Lewis smashed him in Canada, exhaust problem in France and then crashing out when leading at Spa. Kimi in fact surprised me 2007/08 as he was pretty good, but that was a long time ago.

Kristof_F40

23rd June 2014, 10:43

Like James Allison said, the car is a handfull and both drivers complain about the same thing, Fernando just finds a way to deal with it, Kimi doesn't

IulianFerrari

23rd June 2014, 11:50

People on here complaining about Raikkonen's poor performance... despite the fact that nearly every race this season his car has had problems. Today ferrari told him to slow down and cool his brakes.. ON LAP 2!!!

In addition to that, again his ferrari power unit was losing power! Alonso has done well, but his ferrari has remained problem free nearly all season.
I think this is a correct statement. Alonso has done really well this season, hat is off to him. But you can't compare the car that Kimi has had with Alonso's car, in terms problems during the race. It is a pointless fight for who is better, not only on the forum but when Alonso said 2 days ago that Massa is the fastest teammate that he ever had was a clear shout at Kimi. They don't like each other, well at least Alonso doesn't like Raikkonen, he is not the yes man Massa was and Raikkonen probably doesn't care about Alonso.

Nova

23rd June 2014, 14:32

Two points you're missing here I think.

First of all, both drivers are free to do the best they can. The car isn't perfect, but they have the same car and it's their duty to deliver the best result the car is capable of. Alonso is doing a much better job at delivering the points, and that's fine by me. Unfortunately, that isn't for some people, and they feel the need to lay the blame on the team. Hence we see these discussions.

Secondly, many people wanted a change in Ferrari's second seat last year because the think it can improve the result. It has to be that, right, otherwise why would anyone want change for the worse. Well that did not happen. The change did occur, but the result remain the same. Now you could either admit we were wrong about it, or continue to be in denial and blame the team for screwing up the new driver. Unfortunately, some people chose the second, which is why we always come back to these discussion.

It appears that the strategy chosen by Ferrari for both Massa and now Kimi's car, is off a bit. In 08, 2010 to name a few years, our cars almost always ran close. My point is, lets get the car up there, capable of fighting at the front b4 the driver bashing starts. I see no point in bashing Ferrari drivers, Alo is a bear, Kimi is 07 Ferrari WDC and fast, Massa did pole, almost wdc 08 and still very capable and fast, when the car is not performing at the highest level, its hard to fault any of our drivers. I dont think Ferrari is screwing up the new driver, but they do need to tweak that from a strategy viewpoint. Now the Ferrari did look a bit more stable yesterday, but we really need to find some speed.

Senna4Ever

23rd June 2014, 14:45

but when Alonso said 2 days ago that Massa is the fastest teammate that he ever had was a clear shout at Kimi.

They don't like each other, well at least Alonso doesn't like Raikkonen, he is not the yes man Massa was and Raikkonen probably doesn't care about Alonso.

a) Alonso said that Felipe might not was the main problem of Ferrari and by changing the driver the problem wasn't solved
b) Who knows about Raikkonen really cares

Ferrarichamp

23rd June 2014, 16:17

So he never had a car that suits his driving style?

I guess you weren't watching F1 in 2003, 2005 and 2007.

Alonsomaniac

23rd June 2014, 16:32

I think this is a correct statement. Alonso has done really well this season, hat is off to him. But you can't compare the car that Kimi has had with Alonso's car, in terms problems during the race. It is a pointless fight for who is better, not only on the forum but when Alonso said 2 days ago that Massa is the fastest teammate that he ever had was a clear shout at Kimi. They don't like each other, well at least Alonso doesn't like Raikkonen, he is not the yes man Massa was and Raikkonen probably doesn't care about Alonso.

Maybe it is just Fernando's opinion and nothing more. Now I don't know if Fernando dislikes Kimi and I wonder how you know......the only thing that I know for sure now is that you don't like Felipe...:lol

Alessandra

23rd June 2014, 16:42

................They don't like each other, well at least Alonso doesn't like Raikkonen, he is not the yes man Massa was and Raikkonen probably doesn't care about Alonso.

Do we know that for sure?
Alonso said that he considered KR his greatest rival in 2007 – turned out to be true but not for quite the reason Fernando anticipated. Fer’s never shown KR anything but respect
Fernando seems to be a chatty individual when he ‘s feeling at ease with the people he’s talking to. Felipe Massa certainly thought so.
As for Räikkönen – well who does he ‘like’? I don’t think he sees F1 racing as a place to have friends. But on the rare moments when he and Fer have been on the podium together they seem amiable enough. It’s a professional relationship, no more, no less.

tifosi1993

23rd June 2014, 17:24

If you imply that he has never been fast I cannot agree with you. McLarens and 2007 Ferrari suited him quite well. 2008 Ferrari was OK until the front end was changed.

Of course he is fast. Kimi is our last world champion and he is no pushover, also I rank him better than Vettel. But is he "Extremely Fast" ? don't think so.

I guess you weren't watching F1 in 2003, 2005 and 2007.

I am watching F1 2014. Isn't it enough?

WS6TransAm01

23rd June 2014, 17:53

I guess you weren't watching F1 in 2003, 2005 and 2007.

Exactly, even in 2008 he was doing well up to a time.

In 2005 he would have mopped the floor with Nando if not for the car being as fragile as a Faberge Egg..
Would have been a Podium in Malaysia, broken valve stem - out of points
Imola, would have won - broken drive shaft
Europe, would have won - suspension failure
France, engine failure - 10 spot penalty and still finished 2nd
GB, engine failure - 10 spot penalty and still finished 3rd
Germany, would have won - Hydraulic failure
Italy, engine failure - 10 spot penalty, tire delamination - still finished 4th

Kimi should have been the '05 Champ.. I would have liked it to be Ferrari of coarse, but Bridgestone screwed the pooch that year.

Sure it was long ago, but Kimi can drive. This car just blows and Alonso may be better with a crappy car.

Dino

23rd June 2014, 21:28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Via1P2FZt6U
So he never had a car that suits his driving style?

ntukza

23rd June 2014, 22:24

People talking about F1 on a F1 forum will never catch on.....

No comment.

ntukza

23rd June 2014, 22:36

Two points you're missing here I think.

First of all, both drivers are free to do the best they can. The car isn't perfect, but they have the same car and it's their duty to deliver the best result the car is capable of. Alonso is doing a much better job at delivering the points, and that's fine by me. Unfortunately, that isn't for some people, and they feel the need to lay the blame on the team. Hence we see these discussions.

Secondly, many people wanted a change in Ferrari's second seat last year because the think it can improve the result. It has to be that, right, otherwise why would anyone want change for the worse. Well that did not happen. The change did occur, but the result remain the same. Now you could either admit we were wrong about it, or continue to be in denial and blame the team for screwing up the new driver. Unfortunately, some people chose the second, which is why we always come back to these discussion.

Yes, exactly. Thank you!

- Alonso is doing better than Kimi.
- Generally Alonso has done better than Kimi in the few years.
- So far Kimi's results do not justify his signing.

These are all FACTS. Why can't we just accept the FACTS and then give room for individual opinions to which everyone has a right. Here's an example. It's just an example:

"I admit that Kimi is lagging behind Alonso in terms of performance and all evidence points to him being no better than Massa, but I still think he's a better driver. I have no evidence for this, it's just a gut feel that I hope will be confirmed in good time." :)