The dummy is finally spat out!!

[steelstallions]

When Ferrari were the dominant team, the rest of the field could introduce an all new car let alone improve the engine. Now Mercedes are given a clear advantage and NOBODY can do anything about it. Is this progress? is this the pinnacle of the sport when you know you can put in better machinery BUT ARE NOT ALLOWED TOO. F1 should be renamed, because your stuck racing this year with what you designed the year before. What is the competitiveness in that, what is PINNACLE AND CUTTING EDGE FORMULA ONE ABOUT THAT?

I will now have my Snickers bar, BUT does any one else want to let off some steam on here in support of Ferrari?

http://www.marketing-blog.biz/uploads/Joan-Collins.jpg

[AfterLife]

Your frustration is understandable but that was the past. Rules are the same for every one. Look at RedBull. They have a winner chassis but Renault let them down. That is how it is.

[Kyss4k]

Your frustration is understandable but that was the past. Rules are the same for every one. Look at RedBull. They have a winner chassis but Renault let them down. That is how it is.

But the thing is, that while everyone could at least try to chase Red Bull down in the aero department in last years and the development race was on. Now, with engine freez and aero rules so tight, noone can do anything. The development race is there no more and this seson is just painfull waiting for the winter break.

Engine freeze without proper on track testing before season (not just three tests...) makes no sense and teams who made even the slightest mistake have no portunity to try turn the season around. What excitement is that?

[Rob]

But the thing is, that while everyone could at least try to chase Red Bull down in the aero department in last years and the development race was on. Now, with engine freez and aero rules so tight, noone can do anything. The development race is there no more and this seson is just painfull waiting for the winter break.

Engine freeze without proper on track testing before season (not just three tests...) makes no sense and teams who made even the slightest mistake have no portunity to try turn the season around. What excitement is that?

Plus the freeze came in way to soon during the tests. So, as we have seen, we and Renault were pretty much stuffed even before we raced. :furious

[hogo]

what is PINNACLE AND CUTTING EDGE FORMULA ONE ABOUT THAT?
[/IMG]
F1 is about saving dollars and saving Earth. Didn't you know? :wave

[Kiwi Nick]

The whole problem is the rules and the control freaks who make them in collusion with the less capable who lobby for rules that they think will benefit them. The chaps at the FIA exist for one single purpose - to make rules. Teams at a disadvantage (either talent or financially) find it easier to beg for a new rule rather than build a better car or engine. Together they make a vicious cycle of more and more restrictive rules. And they always find a reason to support the rules, usually safety or cost control.

For most of the history of F1 the "formula" was pretty simple; minimum weight, maximum length/width/height, maximum engine displacement, compressor/no compressor. To someone, like me, who has followed F1 for over 50 years say Ferrari to them and the first thing that pops into their head is V-12. Say Cosworth and it is V-8. The beauty of the simple formulas was that it allowed the teams to figure out what the best solution was. They would rise or fall based on their own strength. In the 50s there were front and rear engine cares racing side by side. The innovation of rear engine proved superior. That sort of radical change could not happen today unless the FIA thought it up. The FIA is the closest thing to the command economy of the Soviet Block countries. Nothing of any significance got built with out the commissars approving the design; who wants to drive a LADA, or a ZIL? A self-centered bureaucracy wasn't good for the Russian auto industry and it is not good for F1. F1 has been sliding down from the pinnacle of racing ever since the FIA started controlling the design, not just the size of engines.

So if the FIA really want to pursue ecologically friendly sustainable designs and have good racing they need to establish the goal and let the teams develop the solution. I think that down deep the FIA boys are the sort who think that anybody who has a better idea must have cheated, so their first move is to squash the cheaters. Not exactly the way forward and certainly not good for racing.

[Hornet]

I don't think it's guaranteed that Ferrari can somehow produced a better engine within a few months given free development, if we were not able to do so after having several years of time to prepare for this. Our competitors can always continue to improve as well.

There are many things I dislike about the current state of F1 as well, but until Luca DM can get things changed, we along with the others are playing by the same rule, and so we cannot blame anyone else for our shortcomings. We failed this year, we have to look at ourself to see what went wrong and fix it. Our competitors did not ran around blindly and stumbled upon a pot of gold, they worked for their success, they got things right where we couldn't, and that's why they are winning.

[Tony]

The simplest way to deal with this is to stop watching races, if you do not support a product, do not endorse it... the bobbleheads at the top of this sport will eventually be faced with declining revenues and will necessarily need to change the recipe...

Talk of cutting testing time even further next year is just pathetic... this sport has lost its way in my opinion....

[wisepie]

The simplest way to deal with this is to stop watching races, if you do not support a product, do not endorse it... the bobbleheads at the top of this sport will eventually be faced with declining revenues and will necessarily need to change the recipe...

Talk of cutting testing time even further next year is just pathetic... this sport has lost its way in my opinion....

Trouble is that if we do stop watching and supporting F1, it will die because sponsors will walk away along with the spectators who pay good money for a mediocre show, the 'racing' has been strangled by the FIA in the interests of costs and environmental issues, neither of which seem to make any sense in terms of the pinnacle of motorsport. What the future holds for F1 fans is worrying.

[Tony]

Trouble is that if we do stop watching and supporting F1, it will die because sponsors will walk away along with the spectators who pay good money for a mediocre show, the 'racing' has been strangled by the FIA in the interests of costs and environmental issues, neither of which seem to make any sense in terms of the pinnacle of motorsport. What the future holds for F1 fans is worrying.

Yes but that would be the point :) A sharp decline in revenue would lead them to rethink the rules which would attract more fans... obviously 3 or 4 hundred fans wont change a thing, but if everyone agreed on the same thing (which I suspect most fans wouldn't anyway) then change would come...

[Richred]

The competition out of the race (time of construction of the F1 engines, rules etc ...) should ensure effective competition on the track. That should be the first directive before freeze engines

[Richred]

Yes but that would be the point :) A sharp decline in revenue would lead them to rethink the rules which would attract more fans... obviously 3 or 4 hundred fans wont change a thing, but if everyone agreed on the same thing (which I suspect most fans wouldn't anyway) then change would come...


I think that's the path taken ... ridiculous rules to get the domain bernie ..

[Rob]

Bernie doesnt make and write the rules.

[Kiwi Nick]

Yes but that would be the point :) A sharp decline in revenue would lead them to rethink the rules which would attract more fans... obviously 3 or 4 hundred fans wont change a thing, but if everyone agreed on the same thing (which I suspect most fans wouldn't anyway) then change would come...

The FIA are reacting to the current decline with exhaust trumpets and titanium spark generators. Do you really have faith that the guys who think sparks are the answer will ever, ever focus on loosening the rules to make the racing better? I don't! Rule makers make rules, so if there is a problem their reaction is to make more rules. Even when it is clear that excessive rule making is killing the sport.

So my question is, does F1 really need the FIA?

[Rob]

Problem is, one of the BIG problems. Our beloved teams. FIA writes the rules, teams meet and discuss the rules. But, they all have own agendas, and will never really agree with eachother.

[Rob]

The FIA are reacting to the current decline with exhaust trumpets and titanium spark generators. Do you really have faith that the guys who think sparks are the answer will ever, ever focus on loosening the rules to make the racing better? I don't! Rule makers make rules, so if there is a problem their reaction is to make more rules. Even when it is clear that excessive rule making is killing the sport.

So my question is, does F1 really need the FIA?

Yes, if we didnt, wouldnt be a real World Championship, plus teams could make what ever they wanted, with 1000+ BHP, cars would get so fast, so much power that it be dangerous to drivers and fans.

[mark p]

Engine freeze is great its to control costs.....

Only thing is you can change the engine for next year so no costs are saved. Ferrari and Renault are paying and developing for next year the same as they would with no freeze. Thing is F1 is not competitive as they cannot put any parts on until next year.

If costs are the same what was the point of the engine freeze?

With these silly rules I would be tempted to develop an Alfa Romeo F1 car and engine that tests all year long but never seems to make it to the grid. Data from that car somehow finds its way to Ferrari.......

[REDARMYSOJA]

Trouble is that if we do stop watching and supporting F1, it will die because sponsors will walk away along with the spectators who pay good money for a mediocre show, the 'racing' has been strangled by the FIA in the interests of costs and environmental issues, neither of which seem to make any sense in terms of the pinnacle of motorsport. What the future holds for F1 fans is worrying.

Agreed, it could harm F1 to the point it would die and never return. Sometimes it's better to stay and fight than to turn and leave. I don't intend to leave F1 because I still like it, there are just a few rules I don't like, namely the engine rules. Unfortunately about the only thing I can do about that is complain about it on the internet.

[Tony]

The FIA are reacting to the current decline with exhaust trumpets and titanium spark generators. Do you really have faith that the guys who think sparks are the answer will ever, ever focus on loosening the rules to make the racing better? I don't! Rule makers make rules, so if there is a problem their reaction is to make more rules. Even when it is clear that excessive rule making is killing the sport.

So my question is, does F1 really need the FIA?

That's the question right there, the FIA is clearly out to lunch right now....

[Nova]

Good article on Pitpass..I think Mike Lawerence wrote it..Its called..We need to Listen to Luca...

[Kiwi Nick]

Yes, if we didnt, wouldnt be a real World Championship, plus teams could make what ever they wanted, with 1000+ BHP, cars would get so fast, so much power that it be dangerous to drivers and fans.:lol:rotfl:clap:rotfl:lol

Rob, you forgot to put the laughy face after your post, so I did it for you.

[killer]

The simplest way to deal with this is to stop watching races, if you do not support a product, do not endorse it... the bobbleheads at the top of this sport will eventually be faced with declining revenues and will necessarily need to change the recipe...

Kinda agree, but I think they've started targeting a new audience to make up for losing the hardcore motorheads... see how a GP weekend is now a complete show with concerts, tattoo stations, and other gimmicks completely irrelevant to motor racing. Thing is, this new audience has spending power and an unending desire to be involved with whatever is chic at the moment (read: douche bags)... this gives the powers-that-be enough leverage to hold the "sport" hostage for the meantime...

[Tony]

Kinda agree, but I think they've started targeting a new audience to make up for losing the hardcore motorheads... see how a GP weekend is now a complete show with concerts, tattoo stations, and other gimmicks completely irrelevant to motor racing. Thing is, this new audience has spending power and an unending desire to be involved with whatever is chic at the moment (read: douche bags)... this gives the powers-that-be enough leverage to hold the "sport" hostage for the meantime...

That's a very good point as well... maybe the demographics are shifting away from what we older fans want... at which point we'll just have to accept F1 for what it's becoming or move on to another sport!

[stefa]

The whole problem is the rules and the control freaks who make them in collusion with the less capable who lobby for rules that they think will benefit them. The chaps at the FIA exist for one single purpose - to make rules. Teams at a disadvantage (either talent or financially) find it easier to beg for a new rule rather than build a better car or engine. Together they make a vicious cycle of more and more restrictive rules. And they always find a reason to support the rules, usually safety or cost control.

For most of the history of F1 the "formula" was pretty simple; minimum weight, maximum length/width/height, maximum engine displacement, compressor/no compressor. To someone, like me, who has followed F1 for over 50 years say Ferrari to them and the first thing that pops into their head is V-12. Say Cosworth and it is V-8. The beauty of the simple formulas was that it allowed the teams to figure out what the best solution was. They would rise or fall based on their own strength. In the 50s there were front and rear engine cares racing side by side. The innovation of rear engine proved superior. That sort of radical change could not happen today unless the FIA thought it up. The FIA is the closest thing to the command economy of the Soviet Block countries. Nothing of any significance got built with out the commissars approving the design; who wants to drive a LADA, or a ZIL? A self-centered bureaucracy wasn't good for the Russian auto industry and it is not good for F1. F1 has been sliding down from the pinnacle of racing ever since the FIA started controlling the design, not just the size of engines.

So if the FIA really want to pursue ecologically friendly sustainable designs and have good racing they need to establish the goal and let the teams develop the solution. I think that down deep the FIA boys are the sort who think that anybody who has a better idea must have cheated, so their first move is to squash the cheaters. Not exactly the way forward and certainly not good for racing.

:thumb totally agree :clap

[stefa]

... this sport has lost its way in my opinion....

In my opinion too. In recent years, more and more I am missing qualifying, it is just a matter of time when I'll miss race(s)...

[killer]

...maybe the demographics are shifting away from what we older fans want... at which point we'll just have to accept F1 for what it's becoming or move on to another sport!

That's unfortunately the knife they've got at our throats at the moment. :-s

[killer]

So if the FIA really want to pursue ecologically friendly sustainable designs and have good racing they need to establish the goal and let the teams develop the solution.

Agreed.

[Liscia]

This has been coming down the road for a long time. FIAnal has really
done it with this year's "formula" and this older fan does not understand
the course they've set for F1.

[abbottcostello]

OK, now ALL of us on TSN only need to come to complete agreement on what we want F1 to be & how this will solve all of their problems for money, competitiveness, fairness, appealing to all demographic segments, maximizing sponsorship involvement, etc., etc., etc.
So, put your thinking caps on, we'll get it solved & send it off to the FIA, so we can get back to enjoying the sport! :-D

I say strict limits on total downforce (come up with an approved method to measure & make instituting changes such an onerous task that no one will even want to try), unlimited engines, back to bias ply tires with bigger on rear & smaller on front. Cars will actually have to slow down more for turns which equals earlier braking which gives more opportunities for overtaking, but cars are fast as heck on the straights.