Alonso has created the problem Ferrari finds themselves in today...

[Ferris]

I have recently been having quite a heated discussion with a friend of mine regarding Ferrari but more specifically Alonso and his contribution to the team.
The argument of my friend is that Alonso is no where near Schumacher simply because he has not won a title with Ferrari.

My view is that there are a number of key considerations before you make any judgement on one particular person.
The key consideration is that of circumstance.

Michael entered a team that was in rebuild mode. They knew they had a lot of problems and had to invest heavily towards the future and it took them 4 years to get to a almost dominant position from which they built from. I think this is part of the problem with Alonso's tenure at Ferrari.

Ferrari did not believe until this year that fundamental changes and investment needed to be made to be dominant again in the sport from 2010 to early 2014. The reason for this is simple... Alonso was too good. His immense talent enabled Ferrari to fight for titles with a clearly second rate car. His performance actually masked the true potential of the team and meant that tweaks to the organisation is all that occurred under Stefano and Luca.

Had Ferrari got their behinds severely kicked in 2010 and 2012 perhaps the winds of change would have swept through there before a big regulation change and we wouldn't find ourselves on the back foot we have now.

So to conclude, yes Alonso is to blame for Ferrari's current state, simply because the management around him were too myopic to understand just how much speed he brought to the car and how much he covered up their problems. This led to a lack of investment in the team while Merc and RB poured more money into their teams than Ferrari to invest into the future.

We are lucky that Alonso has stuck with Ferrari this long, in a large part because other seats were not really available. The positive thing is that now Marco is in the team and is new to many people in the team the hard decisions can be made. There are no sacred cows. As the saying goes, "sacred cows make the best burgers.".

As for 2015... We will not be able to close all the gap to Merc but Alonso will close the gap somewhat to them, just not consistently enough to win the title.
I fear that 2016 will be the year that we can truly look at challenging for the title again while we rebuild during 2014 and settle in these new processes during 2015.

Given what we are seeing today, Alonso is still the class of the F1 paddock followed by that young "smiling assassin". Daniel is the future of Ferrari for me and should be in the team for 2016 to replace Kimi.

Kimi should be retained as a litmus test for Ferrari. In a good car he is quick, in a bad car he is not. Let's see how he performs in 2015 as it will be a good sense as to how the car is improving as Kimi is not the problem at Ferrari; Ferrari is the problem.

[Paulpg87]

the story reminds me of stoner and ducati

[khizerk]

A bit misleading statement in my opinion. You can't blame someone for being too good at something. Alonso can be 'blamed' for the current state if while getting the car to punch above its weight, he didn't push the team enough to get a competitive car delivered. Which, judging by the often tense state of affairs and 'ear tweakings', has not been the case.

Also, Ferrari realized they needed major investment and revamp when Costa was let go and talks of restructuring began with wind tunnel investment starting during that period too. What can be said is that the direction of the efforts was not the best in retrospect. How much Alonso had to contribute to that or should have done...we'll probably never know.

[Ferris]

A bit misleading statement in my opinion. You can't blame someone for being too good at something. Alonso can be 'blamed' for the current state if while getting the car to punch above its weight, he didn't push the team enough to get a competitive car delivered. Which, judging by the often tense state of affairs and 'ear tweakings', has not been the case.

Also, Ferrari realized they needed major investment and revamp when Costa was let go and talks of restructuring began with wind tunnel investment starting during that period too. What can be said is that the direction of the efforts was not the best in retrospect. How much Alonso had to contribute to that or should have done...we'll probably never know.

The statement is not misleading, it is how it is immediately interpreted by people who read it and jump to conclusions. Without looking at the details within the statement it is clear that the brilliance of Alonso has covered up the true state of Ferrari which has led to only small adjustments in the team when wholesale ones were needed.

It's a bit like Brazil yesterday. Silva and Neymar were sorely missed but the team was also not fully tested by the best teams leading up to Germany. They were not as good as their score lines suggested and had poor depth in talent and discipline. When you come up against a truly organised side or team the deficiencies then become apparent.

[Kiwi Nick]

Let me make Ferris' point more simply: If Alonso had not come to Ferrari, they would have been inclined to address the problems within the company sooner.

[Alesi1]

You can't build a team around you anymore without proper testing. I remember Michael testing on Christmas day one winter. Drivers can't contribute as much these days.

[Ferris]

Let me make Ferris' point more simply: If Alonso had not come to Ferrari, they would have been inclined to address the problems within the company sooner.

Exactly! His brilliance masked their problems.

[Alonsomaniac]

Very flattering for Alonso, but as I have always said: the man is no magician. Yes, he is the best driver of his era, but that's all. He too cannot get things out of a car that are not in it.
Every single fast lap he drives in a Ferrari isn't even 100% perfect, because he is just human and humans are not perfect - which means every lap there is even more in the car than Fernando gets out of it.
That he gets more from a car than anybody else is correct and clearly illustrated by Felipe and Kimi.

Both Schumacher and Alonso started their career with Ferrari on a moment the car was far from good.
It took Schumacher 5 years and a lot of testing before he won his first championship with Ferrari.
Nowadays testing is almost gone, so it's no wonder it will take Alonso more than 5 years.

[Stormy]

I think Alonso on most occasions squeezed 100% of the car and reached the car's full potential.
He is also very smart and thinks fast when he is doing a maneuver on the track.
Also a very temperamental person that always got the motivation to fight no matter how he is standing with points, a thing that Kimi obviously lacks.
So i think Alonso and Schumi are very close, and we cant really determine who is better, but i think they are pretty close.

[Giallo 550]

Fernando Alonso NOT winning with these Ferraris was a colossal indication that something was/is gravely wrong in the Scuderia.

[NickEice]

Fernando Alonso NOT winning with these Ferraris was a colossal indication that something was/is gravely wrong in the Scuderia.

+1,000,000

Delete this thread title. It's a ridiculous statement.

[exeau]

fantastic thread..

+1 DANIEL RICCIARDO FOR FERRARI

[Nova]

Shu was pretty darn brilliant himself, but he knew that to have a winning car, the proper management must be in place. Had Todt and Brawn not gone with Ferrari, Shuey wouldnt have either. Hence, Id say Shu was shrewder in his assesment. And he well knew that wherever Brawn went, there'd be a winning car, so thats where he would go.
Politics have been an achilles heel at Ferrari for many years. When Todt and Brawn went there, I think it took them 2 years to simply get everyone to leave them alone. Once they started winning, no one dared mess with them. Can anyone straighten out the political mess Ferrari is in? I hope so, as u can hire as many top engineers as u like, but if no one proper is there to lead them, its simply going to keep going round n round.

[Nova]

fantastic thread..

+1 DANIEL RICCIARDO FOR FERRARI


Kidden? I'll take Bianchi AND Bottas. In the coming years, these 2 are the guys.

[Hornet]

It's probably been said many times, but F1 is very different today than it was 10 years ago, and so it's not possible to make a comparison between the Ferrari today and what it was during Schumi's era. Back then, there were a lot more freedom in terms of development. You are free to do wind tunnel testing, or track testing, or any testing you want. Ie. if you are good at CFD development, you can use that, but if you rely more on track testing, you are free to do that too, no one is forced to do anything.

Today is different, everything is limited and so the team cannot say lets do our best approach to development. Instead, we have to do what approach the rules allow, and if we're not good at it, we have to learn to be good at it. Therefore there's that added layer of difficulty.

[AfterLife]

There is no doubt about Fernando Alonso's brilliance. IMO Fernando Alonso is so much better than Michael Schumacher.
Ferrari are not bunch of fools that can't recognize if the car is competitive or not when Fernando Alonso driving it. Ferrari have all sort of data for all the part of tests, practices, races for both the drivers.
It is simple. Ferrari know when they have produced a competitive car and when they have produced pure dog.

[fratelliferrari]

There is no doubt about Fernando Alonso's brilliance. IMO Fernando Alonso is so much better than Michael Schumacher.
Ferrari are not bunch of fools that can't recognize if the car is competitive or not when Fernando Alonso driving it. Ferrari have all sort of data for all the part of tests, practices, races for both the drivers.
It is simple. Ferrari know when they have produced a competitive car and when they have produced pure dog.

That's difficult to say, in my opinion! In the years Michael was beaten by Alonso (2005,2006), Fernando had a better car than Michael, and Michael drove in the 90s while Fernando didn't so you can't compare that.

[Stormy]

That's difficult to say, in my opinion! In the years Michael was beaten by Alonso (2005,2006)
What about 2006?
Michael maybe didnt had the better car but was still pretty close...
I dont say this proves anything, but i think it proves that Michael may be not be a lot better then Alonso, i think they are pretty close.
And sure Alonso its not waay better then Michael, there is no way to prove that.

[ferrari4life]

ban him from Ferrari!!.. he is like Jonah from the bible.. throw him overboard and the storms will stop LOL. His career is like a black cloud hanging over him ever since he left Renault.

[Kingdom Hearts]

Fernando had a better car than Michael,

Ferrari had the best car in the second part of 2006. In 2005 of course Ferrari was not good enough.

[Ferris]

Both Schumacher and Alonso started their career with Ferrari on a moment the car was far from good.
It took Schumacher 5 years and a lot of testing before he won his first championship with Ferrari.
Nowadays testing is almost gone, so it's no wonder it will take Alonso more than 5 years.

Yes this is very true but the problem for Alonso is that when he entered the team there was no sense that they were behind and needed to rebuild and invest in the team as they did when Schumi arrived. This is the core of the problem. They thought thing were ok; FA fought for 2 titles to the end and this was due to him not the car and this delayed action from the team.

Had we not of had Alonso in the team in 2010 i feel we would have made some wholesale changes to the team a lot earlier as 2010 would have been the wake up call, not 2014.

[Stormy]

Had we not of had Alonso in the team in 2010 i feel we would have made some wholesale changes to the team a lot earlier as 2010 would have been the wake up call, not 2014.
I dont think so, Ferrari are always doing the best they can do to build the best car possible, and i certainly dont think that if we didnt got Alonso that the car would be better just because we would have a weaker driver that needs the best car in order to win a title, i mean its just not logical thinking.
The car matters the most, so of course that the team is doing everything they can to build the best car.

[Nova]

Ferrari had the best car in the second part of 2006. In 2005 of course Ferrari was not good enough.

Lets not forget the tire rule of 05. We really never knew if the car was good or not..the tire couldnt last race distance. Lousy rule that.

[Rishu]

What about 2006?
Michael maybe didnt had the better car but was still pretty close...
I dont say this proves anything, but i think it proves that Michael may be not be a lot better then Alonso, i think they are pretty close.
And sure Alonso its not waay better then Michael, there is no way to prove that.

Massa has raced alongside both & according to him Alonso > Schumacher. But clearly in 2006 MS was in twilight of his career while Alonso's 2010-13 have been his prime years

[Ferris]

I dont think so, Ferrari are always doing the best they can do to build the best car possible, and i certainly dont think that if we didnt got Alonso that the car would be better just because we would have a weaker driver that needs the best car in order to win a title, i mean its just not logical thinking.
The car matters the most, so of course that the team is doing everything they can to build the best car.

If you take Alonso's performances out of the equation and then looked at where Ferrari would have finished with two drivers of say Massa's and Kimi's calibre do you think the technical heads of Ferrari would have lasted?

The answer is no, they would have seen how far off the pace they were and the poor job the team was doing and changes would have come in much earlier than they have. It's normal, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Problem was it was broken but patched over through brilliant driving by one driver.

If Alonso is guilty of anything it is not pushing Luca and co to invest more heavily in the team.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Marco is hiring engineers from everywhere and now also negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract???

[ntukza]

Ferris, what a brilliantly written piece. I enjoyed reading that and I like many of the points you make. Having said that, though, I disagree with your motion to blame Alonso for the myopia of his management. It's their own shortsightedness and mismanagement of Alonso's talent that is at fault. Good read, though!

[Stormy]

If you take Alonso's performances out of the equation and then looked at where Ferrari would have finished with two drivers of say Massa's and Kimi's calibre do you think the technical heads of Ferrari would have lasted?

The answer is no, they would have seen how far off the pace they were and the poor job the team was doing and changes would have come in much earlier than they have. It's normal, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Problem was it was broken but patched over through brilliant driving by one driver.

If Alonso is guilty of anything it is not pushing Luca and co to invest more heavily in the team.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Marco is hiring engineers from everywhere and now also negotiating with Alonso to extend his contract???

Nicely said, point well taken.
But its kind a funny to me, because there are engineers and experts at our team who know their job is to build the best car possible no matter the performance of the driver.
I mean they must be aware that the car is off the pace and that if its not Alonso in that car to squeeze the maximum out of it, we would be eating dust waay back.
They musn't lack the motivation to build the best car just because are driver is the best on the grid and expect him to win a title in an average car, its just wrong and very bad thinking.
The team should focus on building the best car they can no matter the drivers we have.

But yeah i get what you are saying and maybe that is the case, but its just wrong of them to think like that.

[Kingdom Hearts]

If Alonso is guilty of anything it is not pushing Luca and co to invest more heavily in the team.




That's a silly remark, you can bet that Alonso pushed the team all he can or all they allowed him to push, do you really think that he was not pushing to get better cars, better engineers and better everything in general?.

If the there is people guilty of something those are the big heads in the team, starting with not having a modern and working wind tunnel.

[Stormy]

That's a silly remark, you can bet that Alonso pushed the team all he can or all they allowed him to push, do you really think that he was not pushing to get better cars, better engineers and better everything in general?.

If the there is people guilty of something those are the big heads in the team, starting with not having a modern and working wind tunnel.
Yeah lol, no way you can blame the driver for not pushing the team enough to build a great car, haha.
Dont blame the engineers blame the driver for the quality of the car :rotfl

[Ferris]

Ferris, what a brilliantly written piece. I enjoyed reading that and I like many of the points you make. Having said that, though, I disagree with your motion to blame Alonso for the myopia of his management. It's their own shortsightedness and mismanagement of Alonso's talent that is at fault. Good read, though!

To be clear; me blaming Alonso for Ferrari's failures is done tongue in cheek. I don't blame him, I blame the team leaders (Stefano and Co) for believing they had a good car and the team was functioning well simply because Alonso was putting the car above where it deserved to be.

My thinking about this point started when a friend of mine kept trying to tell everyone that Alonso was rubbish because he had not won anything for Ferrari. I urged him to look at the circumstances as there is more to a team than simply the driver.

Alonso was simply unfortunate to come into a team that did not think there was anything really wrong with itself with upper management who were too soft. This is in stark contrast to when Michael came to Ferrari during a period of rebuilding and investment and with a proper leader in Todt.

This is the point i am trying to make, the management didn't see that they had big problems in a large part because the end results were not that bad due to the driver. Alonso flattered their true performance.

So to be clear i don't blame Alonso; I blame Stefano and Luca 100%. Luca has got it right so many times before so he can be forgiven one more time but if they don't pull themselves out of this mess i can tell you even the FIAT board wont tolerate Luca any longer.

[Ferris]

That's a silly remark, you can bet that Alonso pushed the team all he can or all they allowed him to push, do you really think that he was not pushing to get better cars, better engineers and better everything in general?.

If the there is people guilty of something those are the big heads in the team, starting with not having a modern and working wind tunnel.

I think Alonso is pushing more now than before simply because he wont sign a contract extension. This is the message he needs to send. Improve and i will stay, if not...

[Ferris]

Nicely said, point well taken.
But its kind a funny to me, because there are engineers and experts at our team who know their job is to build the best car possible no matter the performance of the driver.
I mean they must be aware that the car is off the pace and that if its not Alonso in that car to squeeze the maximum out of it, we would be eating dust waay back.
They musn't lack the motivation to build the best car just because are driver is the best on the grid and expect him to win a title in an average car, its just wrong and very bad thinking.
The team should focus on building the best car they can no matter the drivers we have.

But yeah i get what you are saying and maybe that is the case, but its just wrong of them to think like that.

I don't think it is motivation, i think we simply don't have the best talent pool. There is a reason why we have chased for many engineers, some of which we have gotten.
Our current batch are not good enough. This is not a criticism off our people, it is just normal that some people are better than others. Having the best driver only takes you so far.

This is what needs to be fixed and it is being fixed by Marco now. Let's see what 2015 brings. Don't expect miracles but do expect race wins if we are to get ourselves out of this position.

[ALO]

I do agree that ferrari should grab Riccardo while they can

[sachin]

wow just wow,what a misleading Heading to the thread..:-P

[Stormy]

I don't think it is motivation, i think we simply don't have the best talent pool. There is a reason why we have chased for many engineers, some of which we have gotten.
Our current batch are not good enough. This is not a criticism off our people, it is just normal that some people are better than others. Having the best driver only takes you so far.

This is what needs to be fixed and it is being fixed by Marco now. Let's see what 2015 brings. Don't expect miracles but do expect race wins if we are to get ourselves out of this position.
I agree, hope with the new reforms we will be competitive for the title next year.


I do agree that ferrari should grab Riccardo while they can
I dont think Ricciardo will want to come to Ferrari so soon, after all he is a Red Bull made driver, i dont think he would want to sell out his team now.
Rosberg is a good choice but if he wins the title no way he would want to sell out Mercedes.
We must convince Alonso to stay with us.
And if Kimi goes, then ill go with Bottas, cant see any younger driver better then Bottas, except maybe Ricciardo who is not free.
But i think Kimi will get another chance.

[Ferris]

wow just wow,what a misleading Heading to the thread..:-P

Got people's attention though... ;-)

[Ferris]

I think the title in 2015 will be too tough and we should keep kimi as the drivers are not the problem. The car and how the engineers work together are in addition to the talent pool.