Marmorini speaks

[f300v10]

I don't speak italian, so hopefully someone can provide a better translation than Google. But Marmorini seems to say that he was asked by Mr. Tombazis to design an extremely compact engine that also required less cooling, in an effort to maximize the aerodynamic performance of the car. The compromised the horsepower, and the aero benifit wasn't realized. Full article here:

http://blog.quotidiano.net/turrini/2014/08/15/ferrari-tutta-la-verita-di-marmorini/

[Kingdom Hearts]

english

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/09226

Poor Marmorini, the innocent victim...

[jragona]

His side of the story sounds convincing but there is always more then one side to every story...

After reading that my feeling is that Tombazis may have played a fast one by managing to convince Mattiacci that the problems were caused by Marmorini and not his own inability to capitalise on the smaller engine with superior aero...

[GrndLkNatv]

Luca is a friend of mine, he and my friend Lorenzo grew up together and I can tell you from years of experience, Luca doesn't play politics.. He tells it like it is and he is one of the few people I have ever known that can get you to exceed your ability without you even knowing it.. Thankfully our friendship was not based on the workplace.


His side of the story sounds convincing but there is always more then one side to every story...

After reading that my feeling is that Tombazis may have played a fast one by managing to convince Mattiacci that the problems were caused by Marmorini and not his own inability to capitalise on the smaller engine with superior aero...

[Senna4Ever]

Hmmm interesting
After Costa was blaming Mr. Tombazis now the next one ...

Costa has proven he can build a good package
Let's see what Marmorini will do at Renault

And who will be the next scapegoat then.

[mirafiori]

I feel so sorry for Luca Marmorini, let me explain why, first of all this has been a tough task for all concerned with the new engine technology, not only for Ferrari, also for Renault and Mercedes, we now know Mercedes has done the best job and all credit to them. Due to the pathetic rules Luca would have to wait until 2015 to redeem himself, this opportunity has now been taken away from him, Luca certainly had all the tools to put the Ferrari engine to the front of the grid. Luca SO FAR has produced the most reliable engine out of the three manufactures and this is where Luca deserves a lot of credit, we now know our engine is very reliable, that would of given Luca a great platform to work on. I really hope we know what we are doing in dismissing Luca, I would hate to see him doing really well somewhere else, meaning we made a big mistake in letting him go, only in time will we know.

[Kiwi Nick]

Sounds like Tombazis set the development t of the F14T on a course that is 100% antithetical to Ferrari's strengths...mediocre engine and great aerodynamics. If Enzo had known that this was the right combination he never would have said, "Aerodynamics are for those who cannot make great engines."

[RedPassion]

It is true that the F14T is not a bullet but the PU is a completely disaster,and the main problem is not even the MAX power but the drivebility that should be better in underpowered engines(like the renault of Fernando Alonso between 2002-2008).The chassis is average,the engine is a disaster which means that Marmorini is just washing his hands instead of saying"Look we were asked to build a small engine BUT WE DIDNT MAKE A GOOD JOB EITHER".A f1 car is a team effort and Marmorini is forgetting that he was there too.Another confirmation that Luca is a fine gentleman and a good technician but a bad Leader.About giving Ferrari to inexperienced people,well i think the argument is worthless.Each top technician(Newey s first,and Brawn too) begun as an inexperienced TD or TP,talent is important,experience will follow.I think that the old ways of doing in Maranello are the true cancer not the positive things as Marmorini is saying and that giving Allison and Fry the whole responsibility is the best thing Mattiacci has done.I firmly believe that Maranello has excellent technicians,but like in real life,without good managers that organize and coordinate the work good workers are meaningless because they are wasting their talent in doing the wrong things.

[tifosi1993]

I don't speak italian, so hopefully someone can provide a better translation than Google. But Marmorini seems to say that he was asked by Mr. Tombazis to design an extremely compact engine that also required less cooling, in an effort to maximize the aerodynamic performance of the car. The compromised the horsepower, and the aero benifit wasn't realized. Full article here:

http://blog.quotidiano.net/turrini/2014/08/15/ferrari-tutta-la-verita-di-marmorini/

Turrini is known for making things up , so take it with a grain of sodium chloride.

[GrndLkNatv]

Luca is not a bad leader.. He is one of those guys you love to work for.. He get's you to exceed your ability without even knowing it. But he's not a politician and he will do great things in the future.. As for Ferrari having great engineers/technicians and not great managers, well I think you will find they have too many managers and not enough great technicians... They only had 270 engineers building this car, whereas Mercedes had over 1000..


It is true that the F14T is not a bullet but the PU is a completely disaster,and the main problem is not even the MAX power but the drivebility that should be better in underpowered engines(like the renault of Fernando Alonso between 2002-2008).The chassis is average,the engine is a disaster which means that Marmorini is just washing his hands instead of saying"Look we were asked to build a small engine BUT WE DIDNT MAKE A GOOD JOB EITHER".A f1 car is a team effort and Marmorini is forgetting that he was there too.Another confirmation that Luca is a fine gentleman and a good technician but a bad Leader.About giving Ferrari to inexperienced people,well i think the argument is worthless.Each top technician(Newey s first,and Brawn too) begun as an inexperienced TD or TP,talent is important,experience will follow.I think that the old ways of doing in Maranello are the true cancer not the positive things as Marmorini is saying and that giving Allison and Fry the whole responsibility is the best thing Mattiacci has done.I firmly believe that Maranello has excellent technicians,but like in real life,without good managers that organize and coordinate the work good workers are meaningless because they are wasting their talent in doing the wrong things.

[AfterLife]

Obviously that article makes some questions?

1. How about technical director (Pat Fry) idea about it (smaller engine)?
2. Who can recover lack of 20 to 40 horsepower by aerodynamic? (Surely Tombazis know there is no guarantee to compensate 20 to 40 horsepower by aerodynamic based on Ferrari's common struggles with aerodynamic)
3. If the overall engine is small (considering the lack of horsepower is down to engine small size) is it possible to fix the issues by these engine freeze restrictions?

If the article is true, I don't think that is the full story.

[Kiwi Nick]

Because the entire F14T was built around the flawed small engine/ great aero model, the 2015 car will be a whole new attempt at making a car for this formula. Whereas Merc is working on evolving its 2014 car, Ferrari will have to start with a clean sheet. A bigger PU package with increased power will mean a bigger turbo, and a bigger turbo will make more heat and more heat will require more cooling and more cooling will requite bigger radiators and bigger radiators will mean larger side pods and larger side pods will require a new approach to the aero package and a new aero package will need to be tested in the new wind tunnel and the new wind tunnel must be trusted to provide accurate readings and, and, and...

In the end, the F15T will be a completely new car vs. a development of the F1 W05. Allison and the team have to get it absolutely right to produce a "new" car that is as good as a refined version of a WCC car. Good luck to them.

[Brembo]

So while agreeing with what you said, how does Merc make it look so easy? Turbo, areo and everything else? Keeping in mind Ferrari has Alonso who is the best.

[Kristof_F40]

I don't think it's the whole story.
When you read articles again that were produced in the approuch of season 14, than you see that Ferrari was always talking about reliability. James Allison once even said something like "the one that is going to win this year isn't the fastest car it's the car that finishes every race" That was our approuch to the season, we are midseason who has finished every race in the points? Fernando Which team doesn't have any DNF because of engine problems? Ferrari. But where are we in the championships? Merc is worried about reliability, but when their issues come in qualy, it doesn't matter even from last they can still win...........

[ManFromMilan]

James Allison once even said something like "the one that is going to win this year isn't the fastest car it's the car that finishes every race" That was our approuch to the season, we are midseason who has finished every race in the points? Fernando Which team doesn't have any DNF because of engine problems? Ferrari. But where are we in the championships? Merc is worried about reliability, but when their issues come in qualy, it doesn't matter even from last they can still win...........



Merc can afford to change an engine, take the grid penalty and still win or at least finish on the podium this year, till now.

[ARUN M KARUNAN]

Because the entire F14T was built around the flawed small engine/ great aero model, the 2015 car will be a whole new attempt at making a car for this formula. Whereas Merc is working on evolving its 2014 car, Ferrari will have to start with a clean sheet. A bigger PU package with increased power will mean a bigger turbo, and a bigger turbo will make more heat and more heat will require more cooling and more cooling will requite bigger radiators and bigger radiators will mean larger side pods and larger side pods will require a new approach to the aero package and a new aero package will need to be tested in the new wind tunnel and the new wind tunnel must be trusted to provide accurate readings and, and, and...

In the end, the F15T will be a completely new car vs. a development of the F1 W05. Allison and the team have to get it absolutely right to produce a "new" car that is as good as a refined version of a WCC car. Good luck to them.

what u mean by bigger.we are not making steam engine

[Lesky]

When will Stefano speak about Ferrari?

[Kristof_F40]

Merc can afford to change an engine, take the grid penalty and still win or at least finish on the podium this year, till now.

Indeed, so their strategy, to find max performance and try to achieve good reliability, instead of placing reliability firsdt is paying of more than ours.. The question then is, did we really screw up the engine that much, or was our approuch just wrong..

[Kiwi Nick]

The question then is, did we really screw up the engine that much, or was our approuch just wrong..

Yes to both.

[stefa]

Any way, every one is to blame for not producing results for years now in a row....

[Kiwi Nick]

what u mean by bigger.we are not making steam engine

:Hmm

[Stino]

In the end, the F15T will be a completely new car...

Slightly off topic, but after this year's F14T (Fiat) next season we will have a F15T (Fist) and the year after that a F16T (Fight). I kinda like that.

[sav_pap]

Marmorini is not the only one to blame. Hopefully more things are going to be revealed at the end of this season. 😉

[Honzus]

Just couple of questions to Luca:

1) Why is our engine so heavy, is this also request from aero dept?

2) Why is our engine so thirsty, is this also request from aero dept?

I like Luca Marmorini but pointing at Tombazis is not correct, because from engine point of view the homework wasnt done perfectly also. I agree with the statement, that our car lacks in every single aspect from PU to aero...

[stefa]

Slightly off topic, but after this year's F14T (Fiat) next season we will have a F15T (Fist) and the year after that a F16T (Fight). I kinda like that.

...if the naming remains like that (F YEAR TURBO)

[radosav]

It has to mean something when every member that leaves Ferrari speaks about same problems in team! Bad leadership !
It can't all be sour grapes!

[Hornet]

It has to mean something when every member that leaves Ferrari speaks about same problems in team! Bad leadership !
It can't all be sour grapes!

I don't see that they are speaking of the same problem though. More like pointing fingers elsewhere. Costa blamed Luca DM, Marimorini blames Tombazis. It's always the other person's fault.

[Rob]

I don't see that they are speaking of the same problem though. More like pointing fingers elsewhere. Costa blamed Luca DM, Marimorini blames Tombazis. It's always the other person's fault.

if say it was my fault for the short comings of the aero,engine. No other team would want to sign them.

[radosav]

I don't see that they are speaking of the same problem though. More like pointing fingers elsewhere. Costa blamed Luca DM, Marimorini blames Tombazis. It's always the other person's fault.

I was thinking more about team making decision every few years to re-shuffle staff just for sake of it, and letting fantastic engineers go to other teams.
I see it as poor leadership!

[shamim179]

So Marmorini holds Tombazis accountable to an extent. This either suggests there was inadequate communication between the engine and chassis departments as highlighted in Matiacci's recent report or that there is sufficient communication but the design approach was flawed from the very beginning by focussing too much on reliability and aerodynamics at the cost of engine performance. Ferrari got the formula wrong for this new era of F1. Question is who oversees and guides the engine and chassis departments by advising what to focus on? Was it Stefano and Fry? Luca? Something just doesn't add up here and Marmorini may very well be an innocent casualty. I'm not so sure it was Matiacci that axed Marmorini.

[shamim179]

Would have been much wiser to retain Marmorini for the fear of helping our competitors. He has been a long term engine chief at Ferrari who would possess a lot of invaluable information. Letting him go wasn't wise.

[Kiwi Nick]

So Marmorini holds Tombazis accountable to an extent. This either suggests there was inadequate communication between the engine and chassis departments as highlighted in Matiacci's recent report or that there is sufficient communication but the design approach was flawed from the very beginning by focussing too much on reliability and aerodynamics at the cost of engine performance. Ferrari got the formula wrong for this new era of F1. Question is who oversees and guides the engine and chassis departments by advising what to focus on? Was it Stefano and Fry? Luca? Something just doesn't add up here and Marmorini may very well be an innocent casualty. I'm not so sure it was Matiacci that axed Marmorini.

I think you summed it up perfectly. Now Mattiacci must make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Hornet]

if say it was my fault for the short comings of the aero,engine. No other team would want to sign them.

I agree, which is why these comments should not be taken as accurate facts of what's going on in the team, they are biased.

[anakin]

If this guy goes to mclaren together with fernando. It will be very very difficult for ferrari

[Greig]

If this guy goes to mclaren together with fernando. It will be very very difficult for ferrari

Why will it be? Ferrari don't really need Alonso to win as Red Bull and Mercedes have showed you.

And McLaren are hardly doing any better than us, let's not try and make out they are something special.

[aroutis]

delete me

[aroutis]

It would be wise to keep in mind that Marmorini is giving out his PoV in all this.

There's absolutely no way for anyone (as us fans) to know the whole story. We only get fragments of it.

[vcs316]

Axed Marmorini lashes out at Ferrari

Luca Marmorini has lashed out at Ferrari after being ousted as the fabled team's engine boss.

Also well-known for his position at Toyota, the Italian's F1 career dates back more than two decades to Maranello.

But he was ousted by new team boss Marco Mattiacci a few weeks ago, amid the general feeling that he was to blame for Ferrari's underpowered turbo V6 'power unit'.

Marmorini told Italian F1 insider Leo Turrini that he had no intention of getting involved in any "needless controversy" in the wake of his departure.

"Unfortunately there are people in Maranello who should be silent who like to blame," he said. "So I open my mouth in response to a series of provocations."

Marmorini hit out the hardest against the notion that "all the woes of the F14 T are the fault of the power unit.

"As if a company with the history of Ferrari has forgotten how to make engines!

"I mean, I accept any criticism, but do not tell me that there are people at Maranello who do not know the business of turbos, hybrids.

"Let's set the record straight -- with my colleagues I made a smaller size (engine) than Mercedes and Renault because that is what Mr (Nikolas) Tombazis, the project manager of the car, asked for.

"He said he wanted a very compact PU, with small radiators, because the reduced power would be compensated by aerodynamic solutions that give us an advantage over the Mercedes and Renault cars.

"It was exactly like that, except that when we found the competition, we had less power but the compensation from the aerodynamics was not there."

Marmorini said he was dismissed by Mattiacci, even though "in three months we saw each other twice -- first for a greeting, the second when he gave me a letter that confirmed my departure from the company".

"Look, I don't want to accuse anyone," he added. "Really. But Ferrari is entrusting its racing department to inexperienced people who are putting blind faith in certain people who so far have shown nothing."

Marmorini said he is referring to Britons Pat Fry and James Allison.

"Ferrari also runs the risk of damaging the bedrock on which the many past successes were built," he added. "I don't speak for me as I'm already gone.

"But I'm sorry for the good engineers who are still there and demoralised."

Marmorini also responded to reports his future lies at Renault, another marque that has struggled at the start of F1's all-new 'power unit' era.

"It's not true that I have signed already with Renault," he insisted.

"Indeed, at the moment in a formula one that imposes an engine freeze, I like it very little. But I'm honest -- grands prix have their charm and maybe in a month I will change my mind," said Marmorini.

(GMM)

[tifosi1993]

"Look, I don't want to accuse anyone," he added. "Really. But Ferrari is entrusting its racing department to inexperienced people who are putting blind faith in certain people who so far have shown nothing."

Marmorini said he is referring to Britons Pat Fry and James Allison.

(GMM)

So he thinks Fry & Allison are inexperienced?... have hard time believing this.

(Even if "F1 insider" Turrini is quoting Marmorini, i will take it with a grain of salt)

[hogo]

"Let's set the record straight -- with my colleagues I made a smaller size (engine) than Mercedes and Renault because that is what Mr (Nikolas) Tombazis, the project manager of the car, asked for.

"He said he wanted a very compact PU, with small radiators, because the reduced power would be compensated by aerodynamic solutions that give us an advantage over the Mercedes and Renault cars.

Sauber and Marrusia also failed to compensate lack of power with cars aero. So basically Tombazis had huge impact on all 3 teams.

[Rishu]

I'm surprised how Pat Fry approved this risky call of having smaller engine & hoping good Aero, specially looking our recent 2009-2013 aero history

[Kiwi Nick]

I'm surprised how Pat Fry approved this risky call of having smaller engine & hoping good Aero, specially looking our recent 2009-2013 aero history

Recent history...if you mean since about 1950.

[Rishu]

Recent history...if you mean since about 1950.

I meant aero-dominated era.

[abbottcostello]

So he thinks Fry & Allison are inexperienced?... have hard time believing this.

(Even if "F1 insider" Turrini is quoting Marmorini, i will take it with a grain of salt)

Seems more a reference to MM being inexperienced.

[GrndLkNatv]

Just couple of questions to Luca:

1) Why is our engine so heavy, is this also request from aero dept?

2) Why is our engine so thirsty, is this also request from aero dept?

I like Luca Marmorini but pointing at Tombazis is not correct, because from engine point of view the homework wasnt done perfectly also. I agree with the statement, that our car lacks in every single aspect from PU to aero...

So how heavy is our engine compared to the others?

What is the fuel consumption of our engine compared to the others?

[Honzus]

So how heavy is our engine compared to the others?

What is the fuel consumption of our engine compared to the others?

Heavier and thirstier. Overweight is confirmed by Sauber, consuption is confirmed by the race data, you can see every race weekend fuel consuption, Ferrari has always one of the biggest consumption, when you take into account less power than you can imagine not so powerful and very thirsty engine and what more, its driveability is also very poor. To be honest, our aero isnt top class too, it is above average, but Merc and Red Bull (at least) have better aero.

[Dino]

Marmorini “As if a company with the history of Ferrari has forgotten how to make engines''
No Ferrari are the best at making engines,but your engine is 1.heavier...2.thirstier...3.less powerful...4.difficult to control.
You and Tombazis got it all wrong.
Latest upgrades like thermal wrapping the exhaust manifold on a turbo engine mid season just goes to show you are behind.
Every kid driving a turbo Toyota or Ford knows that.
To be fair your 2.4 v8 was a very good engine but for 2014 you where already sounding the alarms around September 2013 regarding fuel limits/power.
And thanks for designing a very reliable v6 engine.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Any way, every one is to blame for not producing results for years now in a row....

Agreed. All I see in that interview is Marmorini trying to deflect blame from himself.

[killer]

Sauber and Marrusia also failed to compensate lack of power with cars aero. So basically Tombazis had huge impact on all 3 teams.

OR... :-)

[killer]

If this guy goes to mclaren together with fernando. It will be very very difficult for ferrari

He will not have any say on Honda's engines.

[crbassassin]

consuption is confirmed by the race data, you can see every race weekend fuel consuption, Ferrari has always one of the biggest consumption

It only says percentage of (amount of fuel onboard), it doesn't specify the amount of fuel at all.

[Lebaronrouge]

Hi, first of all I apologize for my English

In the championship there is different kinds of race track. Some require huge aero performance and others a very good power unit, but in this second category of track there is also subcategories.

1 : Bahrain-like circuit : In which you have a lot of very slow corner followed by a brutal acceleration. A lot of corner in bahran are like that. Without the final safety car Alonso should have to fight against Vettel for the 6th place
2 : race track which requires a good MGU-H or K : Austria / Italy : Very few corner and with big top speed
3 : Schizophrenic race track : Spa / Canada / Germany : You need a good aero and have a good top speed. And we can also add race track which have a very long straight line and the need of very good aero (Spain)

And what can I say ? Is that Ferrari suffer more in the 3th kind of race track. A lot of time they have to sacrifice their aero in order to reach an acceptable top speed and then, they have some difficulties in the aero part of the track with a lot of under/overseeir.
RB for example, they have the same problem but they can compensate the lack of HP with a good aeo and in race track like Germany or Canada they are better than us. In contrast it seems that they have a lot of problem to supply the TC... ERS ? MGU-H ? MGU-K problem ?

Us, of course, our engine have a lot of problems (software / torque etc...). But the fact that we was not good in Canada and Germany compared to RB and good in the Austrian gp indicates that we have also huge problems in the balance aero/HP.
Interesingly, we was good in track which not require good PU (Hungary).
So in my opinion the wrongs are shared. The aero department promise to create the most aero efficient car and this require to reduce the size of the engine.... but they don't reach this goal. But in the opposite, of course the engine have a redueced HP due to order made by the aero department, but the HP level seems to be lower than expected.


But after that for me it is a good approche to have a good aero. Yes, the engine is important for now but it is not due to the V6, it is only because we have a big modification in the rule, like 2008/2009. V10 to V8 was easy compared to the change made between 2013 and 14. But in the future the engine will tends to be standardized with stricter rules than V8 and, like in the V8 world, the aero will be important. And RB shows us that it is necessary to have a good aerodynamic concept which can evoluate through a lot of year

[Hornet]

One of Ferrari's problem is power delivery. When you look at places like Bahrain's slow corner or Spain's sector 3, the car is often sliding around at corner exit, this is the part where the car starts accelerating. In a slow corner, the car isn't fast enough to generate downforce, so there's nothing to keep the car in grip and with an unstable power delivery, the car will tend to lose it's rear end under aceleration. At least that's what I can observe from past races.

Spa will be a mix of good and bad IMO. It's a track where the cars hit top speed at at least 2 section, probably more, and so this is a disadvantage for us due to our lack of PU power. But the good thing is that most of the corners are high downforce corners, which means the car will be more stable under acceleration

[Lebaronrouge]

One of Ferrari's problem is power delivery. When you look at places like Bahrain's slow corner or Spain's sector 3, the car is often sliding around at corner exit, this is the part where the car starts accelerating. In a slow corner, the car isn't fast enough to generate downforce, so there's nothing to keep the car in grip and with an unstable power delivery, the car will tend to lose it's rear end under aceleration. At least that's what I can observe from past races.
The power delivery OR the lack of aero in the rear of the car. For example Nick Chester from Lotus says that the problem for the pilot is the difficulty to control the throttle, mainly due to the lack of aeo with the banishment of the blow with the exhausts. (And it is one explanation why Vettel has so much difficulties against Vettel



Spa will be a mix of good and bad IMO. It's a track where the cars hit top speed at at least 2 section, probably more, and so this is a disadvantage for us due to our lack of PU power. But the good thing is that most of the corners are high downforce corners, which means the car will be more stable under acceleration
To be honest i think Spa will be the worst GP for us if the 20 hp promise are not there. You need a good top speed in Spa, just to protect your position.... remember in 2009 at Spa how Raikkonen won the gp, just thank to the KERS and with a lack of DF. So, in case of a lack of HP, Ferrari should reduce the DF level to compensate... it will be a horrible situation during the race with the tire degradation.

[Avanzamento]

http://formula1.ferrari.com/news/askmarco-team-principal-responds

Question: Aldo Costa and Luca Marmorini said a lot of interesting things about Ferrari, especially about the “chaos” inside the team. What is your opinion about their statements?

Answer from MM: I think working for Ferrari, as I said since my first day in this role, is not a regular job: it’s a mission. I believe therefore it’s extremely difficult for anybody to leave Ferrari. However, in a professional world, I like people that always fight for their ideas and challenge the status quo, in the right place and without settling for compromise.

In my opinion, it is quite clear why Luca Marmorini is out of the Scuderia. He was too soft with his position and didn't fight against compromises to the PU in favor of Aerodynamics.

[eugene22n]

Luca is not a bad leader.. He is one of those guys you love to work for.. He get's you to exceed your ability without even knowing it. But he's not a politician and he will do great things in the future.. As for Ferrari having great engineers/technicians and not great managers, well I think you will find they have too many managers and not enough great technicians... They only had 270 engineers building this car, whereas Mercedes had over 1000..

Wait ... what? 1000 engineers to our 270? what?

Are you just making stuff up or is this true. And if its true why would Luca allow this? What are the cost caps for?

Please link a source or something.

[FFFerrari]

Mercedes has a separate F1 motor department in Brixworth with 400 in staff, so if you count those in and the actual team building the car itself they do have close to 1000 persons working. Obviously not all of those are engineers.