Felipe 40 & Raikkonen 39

[scuderia_nano]

We fired Felipe. Basically we let him go last year. We got in Kimi Raikkonen. AFTter almost 75% of the season over. We have Kimi at Felipe both separated by 1 point.

So, was letting Felipe go a good move?

Pro: Massa is struggling against a kid. That kid has scored 100 points and a few podiums.

Con: We are paying Kimi more. Kimi is yet to outscore Felipe or match Alonso.

Any thoughts?

[FFFerrari]

Any thoughts?

The horse is already dead, Jim. Stop beating it.

[Ed Harley]

You should see beyond the points.

[Brembo]

Kimi is great . The car, if it gets better as it seems it did last race , Kimi will be scoring points every race , even podiums IMO. Massa, one of my favorite drivers, is plagued with bad luck, so it seems. The pieces of tire off of Lewis' car last race found Massa and stuck to the floor of his car!! No one else! I believe Kimi's car will put him up front where he belongs. In Massas case he needs "Divine Intervention", to stop his streak of bad luck. He's due for a change.

[Lesky]

You should see beyond the points.

In what way? Please explain in detail, thank you!

[Greig]

No point comparing Massa with Kimi as they are in different cars.

But clearly Kimi is doing no better against Alonso than Massa was. Some fans on here seemed to think Alonso was not all that good but now they are maybe realising they were wrong.

[Rob]

No point comparing Massa with Kimi as they are in different cars.

But clearly Kimi is doing no better against Alonso than Massa was. Some fans on here seemed to think Alonso was not all that good but now they are maybe realising they were wrong.

:thumb

[Rob]

We fired Felipe. Basically we let him go last year. We got in Kimi Raikkonen. AFTter almost 75% of the season over. We have Kimi at Felipe both separated by 1 point.

So, was letting Felipe go a good move?

Pro: Massa is struggling against a kid. That kid has scored 100 points and a few podiums.

Con: We are paying Kimi more. Kimi is yet to outscore Felipe or match Alonso.

Any thoughts?

The only things im going to say, is, Kimi struggling with this years tyres, and the car. The front end is not pointy enough for him. When can sort it, or with next years car be better for him and he be back to what we know he can do.

[stefa]

Any thoughts?

The horse is already dead, Jim. Stop beating it.

:clap

[AfterLife]

What is interesting for me, Unlike some people that says Kimi Raikkonen doesn't mind politic and has a very simple personality "So called Classic Kimi" and blah blah blah ... I believe Kimi Raikkonen actually is good at those things and use mind games regularly.
From the beginning of the season when Fernando Alonso regularly beat Kimi Raikkonen he has made excuses despite James Allison said both the drivers have the same technical complaint about the car.
Now because of 5 seconds penalty for Fernando Alonso, for once Kimi Raikkonen could finish higher than Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen says "Clean race is all i needed", So where is Kimi Raikkonen's driving style problems?
Part of crashes in race is down to driver himself to avoid them and in terms of technical issues both of them have some sort of reliability problems.
and his recent statement about his race engineer that he is inexperienced is the new one. The same So called classic Kimi Raikkonen that said "Leave me alone i know what i'm doing"
Felippe Massa didn't have that sort of excuses.

[Suzie]

Well, I'd rather Felipe had stayed at Ferrari and they'd made a rocketship this year, but what happened, happened. I'm stuck with my favourite driver not being at my favourite team, and you guys are... stuck with Kimi ;-)

[F2008]

So, was letting Felipe go a good move?

I was disappointed when it happened but now it seems a good move, for Felipe himself.

[Senna4Ever]

No point comparing Massa with Kimi as they are in different cars.

But clearly Kimi is doing no better against Alonso than Massa was. Some fans on here seemed to think Alonso was not all that good but now they are maybe realising they were wrong.

:thumb


What is interesting for me, Unlike some people that says Kimi Raikkonen doesn't mind politic and has a very simple personality "So called Classic Kimi" and blah blah blah ... I believe Kimi Raikkonen actually is good at those things and use mind games regularly.
From the beginning of the season when Fernando Alonso regularly beat Kimi Raikkonen he has made excuses despite James Allison said both the drivers have the same technical complaint about the car.
Now because of 5 seconds penalty for Fernando Alonso, for once Kimi Raikkonen could finish higher than Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen says "Clean race is all i needed", So where is Kimi Raikkonen's driving style problems?
Part of crashes in race is down to driver himself to avoid them and in terms of technical issues both of them have some sort of reliability problems.
and his recent statement about his race engineer that he is inexperienced is the new one. The same So called classic Kimi Raikkonen that said "Leave me alone i know what i'm doing"
Felippe Massa didn't have that sort of excuses.

:thumb

[racingbradley]

I too find it hard that while I support team Ferrari I do not have a favourite driver there.:-s
Felipe has taken his run of bad luck with him. :roll
The question is was it a good move to let Felipe go. Yes for him it was :-)
For Ferrari it just shows that the car is the problem. Felipe or Kimi could come up with the goods if the car was right!
As for Alonso he is doing a good job but we need to remember that the car and team are built around him. ;-)
It was easier for Massa to drive the car as he and Alonso have similar driving styles.
Maybe next year Ferrari will get everything right!!!!!

[Ed Harley]

In what way? Please explain in detail, thank you!
It's not about this season - have not been for a long time - but bringing the team back to the light.

[Ed Harley]

What is interesting for me, Unlike some people that says Kimi Raikkonen doesn't mind politic and has a very simple personality "So called Classic Kimi" and blah blah blah ... I believe Kimi Raikkonen actually is good at those things and use mind games regularly.
From the beginning of the season when Fernando Alonso regularly beat Kimi Raikkonen he has made excuses despite James Allison said both the drivers have the same technical complaint about the car.
Now because of 5 seconds penalty for Fernando Alonso, for once Kimi Raikkonen could finish higher than Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen says "Clean race is all i needed", So where is Kimi Raikkonen's driving style problems?
Part of crashes in race is down to driver himself to avoid them and in terms of technical issues both of them have some sort of reliability problems.
and his recent statement about his race engineer that he is inexperienced is the new one. The same So called classic Kimi Raikkonen that said "Leave me alone i know what i'm doing"
Felippe Massa didn't have that sort of excuses.
Mr Räikkönen is indeed very famous of saying things he does not mean. Or was it the other way around?

Here I was glad about his race outcome and thought it was down to the team improving the car and very little if any problems. Had I known it all was down to the 5 second penalty the other driver got I would have not been so happy prematurely.

Your comment about Mr Räikkönen/Mr Spagnolo is something I fail to understand. Mr Spagnolo was appointed/promoted as race engineer from his previous position as chassis engineer. There were understandably some problems early in the season and David Lloyd was positioned between them to take care of communication and to make Mr Spagnolo's work easier. In recent interview Mr Räikkönen defended Mr Spagnolo by telling how he has grown with the challenge.

[Lesky]

Kimi requested to work with Stella since he had worked with him previously, but this request were denied by Ferrari.

[enjaybel3]

What's wrong with me, I like Felipe and Kimi and what's more I think they are both great drivers.

[Rob]

Kimi requested to work with Stella since he had worked with him previously, but this request were denied by Ferrari.

yes, because he is Fernandos now. And they have a good working bond.

[Winter]

Kimi requested to work with Stella since he had worked with him previously, but this request were denied by Ferrari.

Mark Slade would've been his nr.1 choice, but he didn't want to leave UK.

[wisepie]

Well, I'd rather Felipe had stayed at Ferrari and they'd made a rocketship this year, but what happened, happened. I'm stuck with my favourite driver not being at my favourite team, and you guys are... stuck with Kimi ;-)
+ 1 and 100% agree Suzie, we'll never convince some people that Felipe was the real deal, even after his accident, so we'll have to agree to disagree and our loyalty is probably stronger than anyone's. The points tally with BOT doesn't tell the whole story, but credit to him anyway, as for Kimi, it's no excuse saying the car doesn't suit him, I want him to perform like Fernando but I still think he's no better than Felipe.

[ALO]

Too late now but when we get RIC I think we will have a teamate that will keep up with ALO. That kid is good

[Brembo]

Too late now but when we get RIC I think we will have a teamate that will keep up with ALO. That kid is good

If KImi and Ric switched cars today Kimi would be winning races and Ric would be, well, lets say in the same shape as Kimi or worse at Ferrari. IMO. Massa also would be as is Kimi if still at Ferrari, in the present car or worse due to plain bad luck following him everywhere. Kimi in Massa's Williams on the other hand would be IMO ahead of Bottas.

[ARUN M KARUNAN]

don't compare massa and kimi.they are both talents.even massa has no wcc.he missed it in the last corner of last lap in the last race.after accident he came back,were we all thought massa career is over

[Kingdom Hearts]

If KImi and Ric switched cars today Kimi would be winning races

He will be winning like Vettel.... lol. Kimi at RB could be the same thing, unable to adapt, with better results because the car is better but far from winning a race, specially when he is a weak driver in qualy.

[Brembo]

He will be winning like Vettel.... lol. Kimi at RB could be the same thing, unable to adapt, with better results because the car is better but far from winning a race, specially when he is a weak driver in qualy.
I believe your right about better car better results. With Vettel's 04 rocket no longer in service your right again, his qualy days are over. Ric is doing great whitout qualy. results. Kimi's qualy weakness you mention prob. would be cured in a hurry if in Ric's car. I believe qualy results are 95% the car. How else could Nico be better than Alonso at anything short of on track team terrorism? You might be under estimating Ferrari's opinion of Kimi being a great driver and getting him back. I guess it's always back to square 1, weak car weak results, qualy. or races.

[Kingdom Hearts]

I guess it's always back to square 1, weak car weak results, qualy. or races.

Fernando, weak car, good results.

[Katu]

Kimi requested to work with Stella since he had worked with him previously, but this request were denied by Ferrari.

should Kimi get everything he requests? irc Fernando requested Smedley and got Stella instead

[Ed Harley]

Shame on Mr Räikkönen to ask for a race engineer he worked with in the past.

[dpiatto]

I doubt Massa would have got anymore out of this years car than Kimi has.
To be just 1 point ahead in a superior Merc powered car says it would have been even worse for him had he stayed with Ferrari.
I feel for Felipe as he seems to have took the bad luck from Ferrari across to Williams as he should be up there fighting with Danny Ricciardo & not down with Kimi.

[sweeper1101]

Is Massa better than Kimi, cause he beat him before as a teammate?

I think it's down to feedback with regards to development.
Lotus had a great car when Kimi was there. Ferrari needed the inside knowledge.
That's what I think.

[Brembo]

Fernando, weak car, good results.

Your right again! No driver past or present with Ferrari can compare with Alonso. Weak car good results. Alonso beat Michael in his Ferrari twice . Weak car is as you say no excuse. He's the best!

[Ed Harley]

Please.

[Brembo]

No need to say please, Alonso is already doing it. #1 on the track.

[Ed Harley]

...No driver past or present with Ferrari can compare with Alonso...
You must be joking?

For example Schumacher won five titles with/for Ferrari.

[Greig]

You must be joking?

For example Schumacher won five titles with/for Ferrari.

He did indeed, and with a weak car he was still great much like Alonso, not much between them and it's not all that ridiculous for someone to rate Alonso ahead of Schumacher.

[Brembo]

You must be joking?

For example Schumacher won five titles with/for Ferrari.

For example how many titles did Vettle win in a row no less. Do you feel that makes him equal to or a better driver than Alonso?

[Rishu]

You must be joking?

For example Schumacher won five titles with/for Ferrari.

Is it just number of titles that define driver caliber?

[Lesky]

He did indeed, and with a weak car he was still great much like Alonso, not much between them and it's not all that ridiculous for someone to rate Alonso ahead of Schumacher.

Why would anyone rate Alonso over Schumacher? Schumacher has been just as good as Alonso in less dominant cars, and then he has 5 WDC more than Alonso. In 2005 Michelin beat Bridgestone and in 2006 Alonso won with a tiny margin. And Schumacher was not in his prime then either. There is nothing to suggest Alonso is better than Schumacher was. Perhaps one could argue they are the 2 best drivers, but singling out Alonso over Schumacher makes little sense. Schumacher could have had 9-10 titles easily and had he continued in 2007 and 2008 he would have breezed to 2 more titles. Nobody comes close to competing for so many WDC titles. Alonso has competed for many too, that is also clear though.

[Greig]

Why would anyone rate Alonso over Schumacher? Schumacher has been just as good as Alonso in less dominant cars, and then he has 5 WDC more than Alonso. In 2005 Michelin beat Bridgestone and in 2006 Alonso won with a tiny margin. And Schumacher was not in his prime then either.

Maybe because they think Alonso is better? I would be quite confident in saying Alonso would have won 5 titles for Ferrari in the cars MS had.

[Lesky]

Alonso beat Michael in his Ferrari twice .

Vettel beat Alonso in his Ferrari 4 times. He must be the best then? ;-) Hamilton after this season has beaten Alonso in his Ferrari 2 years in a row. He must be the best then? Just kidding, but beating someone in "his Ferrari" is not really a very good argument!

[Katu]

Shame on Mr Räikkönen to ask for a race engineer he worked with in the past.

ever considered that perhaps mr Stella wasn't so keen on working again with mr Räikkönen. iirc Stella has been longer mr Alonso's race engineer than he was mr Räikkönen's...

[Ed Harley]

No.

[Lesky]

No.

Very well then :lou :-)

[Brembo]

Vettel beat Alonso in his Ferrari 4 times. He must be the best then? ;-) Hamilton after this season has beaten Alonso in his Ferrari 2 years in a row. He must be the best then? Just kidding, but beating someone in "his Ferrari" is not really a very good argument!

I'm glad to see you agree with me. Don't kid yourself, MS was driving a Ferrari when Alonso beat him twice. To say he was with a different team would be a lie.:rotfl And I agree with you again, Michael would still have lost to Alonso in in any other car, not because it was a Ferrari. Ferrari put out a few great cars , to say the least when MS won those titles. I wish that on Alonso before he retires,"With Ferrari!"

[Ferrarichamp]

Alonso won 2 titles when he had the best car/tyre package. I don't see how that makes him better than MS.

[Stormsearcher]

Alonso won 2 titles when he had the best car/tyre package. I don't see how that makes him better than MS.

The same way MS becomes better than everybody for you, cause he won when he had the best car/tyre package for 5 consecutive years.

[Ferrarichamp]

The same way MS becomes better than everybody for you, cause he won when he had the best car/tyre package for 5 consecutive years.

Where did I say that?

[Stormsearcher]

Where did I say that?

ok my bad. Thought it was implied. :-D

[Greig]

Alonso won 2 titles when he had the best car/tyre package. I don't see how that makes him better than MS.

And? tell us who has won a title without the best car/tyre package?

And please don't say MS.

[Hornet]

Alonso won 2 titles when he had the best car/tyre package. I don't see how that makes him better than MS.

So did Schumi, to be fair. Remember the days when Ferrari showed up in Australia with last year's car and still won, because the even faster new car wasn't ready. That's how dominant we were during our successful period with Schumi.

To me, both Schumi and Alonso are the best of their generation. But that doesn't mean people cannot have their own opinion of who's the better driver, they both are on the same level (which is ahead of everyone else of their generation), and therefore they are very comparable.

[FFFerrari]

And? tell us who has won a title without the best car/tyre package?

There are a few examples over the years, but one can argue that the latest one was actually Kimi. McLaren had the best car during 2007 (for reasons we know) but managed to fumble the title. Obviously this doesn't mean that Kimi is the be-all-end-all driver, he was just the right man in the right car at the right time.

[tifosi1993]

Kimi requested to work with Stella since he had worked with him previously, but this request were denied by Ferrari.

Source?

[tifosi1993]

Fernando, weak car, good results.

Alonso simply doing what is required as a part of the job of a top level F1 driver, Find a way how to drive anything you have to drive the fastest possible way.

[Ferrarichamp]

And? tell us who has won a title without the best car/tyre package?

And please don't say MS.

Hamilton 2008 the most recent IMO.

[ManFromMilan]

Hamilton 2008 the most recent IMO.



Are you nuts? He barely won the title in the best car out there in 2008.

[Ferrarichamp]

Are you nuts? He barely won the title in the best car out there in 2008.

Ferrari won the constructors' title in 2008 in case you forgot, and that was with Kimi having a poor season, Massa throwing away points in Malaysia, etc.

[wisepie]

Are you nuts? He barely won the title in the best car out there in 2008.
Quite right, and we all know who should have been World Champion in 2008. Still can't accept that he wasn't.

[Ferrarichamp]

OK, I guess Ferrari were just lucky to win the 2008 constructors title then :roll

[ManFromMilan]

OK, I guess Ferrari were just lucky to win the 2008 constructors title then :roll




No, Ferrari had two great drivers and well Heikki was just poor, no matter how you cut it.

[Ferrarichamp]

Kimi wasn't great in 2008, sorry.

[Greig]

Ferrari won the constructors' title in 2008 in case you forgot, and that was with Kimi having a poor season, Massa throwing away points in Malaysia, etc.

Like how you totally ignore Heikki not performing....wonder why.

[Greig]

Kimi wasn't great in 2008, sorry.

Maybe you need to rewind, Kimi performed pretty well until the team backed Massa, if Kimi has not been hit by Lewis in Canada, exhaust go in France and a spin when leading at Spa then he would have won the title...

[Ferrarichamp]

Like how you totally ignore Heikki not performing....wonder why.

Heikki was an average driver in the 2nd best car, of course he didn't perform well.

[Greig]

Heikki was an average driver in the 2nd best car, of course he didn't perform well.

Well that explains why we won the WCC. Not because we had the best car.

What on earth makes you think the McLaren was 2nd best?

[Ferrarichamp]

Maybe you need to rewind, Kimi performed pretty well until the team backed Massa, if Kimi has not been hit by Lewis in Canada, exhaust go in France and a spin when leading at Spa then he would have won the title...

Makes you wonder why Ferrari wanted end his contract 1 year early then. Usually you're the first to say Kimi is an overrated driver, maybe you should rewind and read some of your posts on the matter.

[Greig]

Makes you wonder why Ferrari wanted end his contract 1 year early then. Usually you're the first to say Kimi is an overrated driver, maybe you should rewind and read some of your posts on the matter.

Erm 2009 happened after 2008 last time I checked, and that's when Ferrari decided to end his contract not in 2008 duh. Not sure where I have said Kimi is not over rated in these posts either, oh yeah cause I never.

[Ferrarichamp]

Not sure where I have said Kimi is not over rated in these posts either, oh yeah cause I never. :rotfl

[Greig]

Maturity clearly not a strong point then.

[Ferrarichamp]

Maturity clearly not a strong point then.

Memory is clearly not yours.

[Greig]

Memory is clearly not yours.

Let's just deal with what you said as that is what we are debating, let's not debate things I have NOT said as that would just be stupid.

For clarification not once in any post in this debate did I mention if I think Kimi is over rated or not, you have simply ran out of points and are trying to divert from your errors. My opinion on Kimi does not change the fact that he did perform in 2008.

[Ferrarichamp]

quoting Greig, 8th March 2011:

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/28248-Ecclestone-Raikkonen-won’t-return-to-F1

'Pedro still made Kimi look very over rated never mind points = facts, we all seen the races, and Kimi was never a dominant driver over anyone. Pressure is always on Ferrari win or lose, Kimi did nothing to change that IMO. And what did it matter he is the first one after MS? like MS was the beginning? I don't see how that means much in the grand scheme of things to Ferrari. Massa would have won the title in 2007 had we thrown our weight behind him instead of Kimi.'

I could probably dig out many more, no point though.

[Greig]

quoting Greig, 8th March 2011:

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/28248-Ecclestone-Raikkonen-won’t-return-to-F1

'Pedro still made Kimi look very over rated never mind points = facts, we all seen the races, and Kimi was never a dominant driver over anyone. Pressure is always on Ferrari win or lose, Kimi did nothing to change that IMO. And what did it matter he is the first one after MS? like MS was the beginning? I don't see how that means much in the grand scheme of things to Ferrari. Massa would have won the title in 2007 had we thrown our weight behind him instead of Kimi.'

I could probably dig out many more, no point though.

Not quite sure what you are trying to achieve? I still think Kimi is over rated and that has nothing to do with you saying he did not perform in 2008. It would be easier for you just to admit he did perform in 2008 rather than seeking to look for things I never said.

Again my opinion on Kimi does not change the fact he did perform in 2008. I could say he is a loser a waster or whatever and it would still not change the fact he did perform in 2008.

[Ferrarichamp]

It would be easier for you just to admit he did perform in 2008 rather than seeking to look for things I never said.


So what period were you talking about when you said he only had 1 good drive in 18 months?

[Greig]

So what period were you talking about when you said he only had 1 good drive in 18 months?

eh?

[Ferrarichamp]

eh?

'1 good drive in 18 months does not make him anything close to being a top driver in his era. He was overated and we found out the hard way '

post #70
http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/28394-Was-Kimi-a-farce/page3

[Greig]

'1 good drive in 18 months does not make him anything close to being a top driver in his era. He was overated and we found out the hard way '

post #70
http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/28394-Was-Kimi-a-farce/page3

Again eh?

Love you searching around looking for things I said like it changes what you said LOL it's a bit flattering. I will still tell you he is over rated if you want?

[Ferrarichamp]

It doesn't change anything I said, it does point out your contradictions though.

[Greig]

It doesn't change anything I said, it does point out your contradictions though.

So Kimi did perform in 2008.

[ManFromMilan]

if Kimi has not been hit by Lewis in Canada



If i remember correctly, he did quite well in the championship until the infamous kamikaze incident in the pits.

[Ferrarichamp]

So Kimi did perform in 2008.

But only half the season right?

[ManFromMilan]

But only half the season right?



Compared to Heikki not performing at all in 2008. It takes two scoring drivers to win a WCC.

[Greig]

But only half the season right?

But you just said I am contradicting myself? make your mind up......

[Ferrarichamp]

Compared to Heikki not performing at all in 2008. It takes two scoring drivers to win a WCC.

and above all it takes a fast car.

[Ferrarichamp]

But you just said I am contradicting myself? make your mind up......

You said in this thread he performed in 2008, which suggests the whole season. Yet in the past you said he only had 1 good drive in 18 months, I assume that's 18 months over two seasons, 2008 and 2009? If so, you have contradicted yourself have you not?

[ManFromMilan]

and above all it takes a fast car.



Agreed, like the one Heikki had, but could not utilize to it's fullest potential.

[Greig]

You said in this thread he performed in 2008, which suggests the whole season. Yet in the past you said he only had 1 good drive in 18 months, I assume that's 18 months over two seasons, 2008 and 2009? If so, you have contradicted yourself have you not?

Yes I have, I like you forgot he did perform in 2008 and that is why now I realise I was wrong in the past, now you can admit the same :-) because he did perform in 2008.

[Ferrarichamp]

Agreed, like the one Heikki had, but could not utilize to it's fullest potential.

Well Heikki ended up 7th in the championship that year with the fastest car according to you. I would call him average but he must have been awful if the car was that good.

[Greig]

Well Heikki ended up 7th in the championship that year with the fastest car according to you. I would call him average but he must have been awful if the car was that good.

He was awful, did you even watch the 2008 season?