Past F1 VS Present and Future F1 (Tradition in F1 and more)

[Majki2111]

I want to start this threat because I think to many people are stuck in past and don't want to move on. One of the first things I really hate is when people start hating new born tracks by calling something called tradition which, I think, is overrated. For example: Ferrari.

Ferrari is now the most popular teams and brands in autosport and it gained most of its status trough Schumacher era, which was 6 years long. The exact sam amount of time has been passing since Ferrari had good form where resault was one of cahampionships. I do not want to refuse Tifosi, but should we call Ferrari a simbol for winning in F1? For me it should be Red Bull now and Mercedes for next couple of years because we all know they have been outpreforming Ferrari for good amount of time. And there is one other thing to be added: Most of tifosi think it will take at least one year for Ferrari to recover.

And now wath I wanted to say about the tracks. Most of the historic track gained their status by challenging corners and good races. For first I want to say that there is no challenging corners for today's technology in which, I think we can list F1. Example is most of Spa curves where drivers in nowday not so often makes mistakes. And for the car, you accually can not see any corner where you see car terring itself into pieces.
As for the second allegation I can say that rearly somebody is remembering good qualy/in most of the cases the race is remembered. That is wrong because I think F1 should be all thing together, and where all things shouzld be remembered as equally as possible. Most of the F1 fans do not give a chance for new tracks after only one or two races. For example is Valencia. Yes, firstly there were boring races and you all know what kind of race was in 2012. And Singapore ofcourse. Always good exciting races and qualys, too. I don't know how Monaco is so popular. The races there are not even close as good as in Singapore. But again there is always tradition, right?:xmasrolleyes::xmasfrown:
Maybe we all should promote todays F1 in best way we can for next generations rather than be nostalgic for past.

And the last thing I want to mention is this V6 era with turbo. I don't know if people just don't think ato all or are they so stupid... In my opinion they are testing it all for ead cars for the future which is a good thing for sure.
And yes, there were people complaining that there is too much strategy going on in F1 and saying it self that F1 is the in top of autosport. Again, I will say the same thing: If it is on the top of autosport, than it should be all thinngs together creating F1 with none of the things preceding.




P.S. I think this title deserves it's own threat because good discussion can be developed about it. Give this threat a chance, please.

[fratelliferrari]

I almost disagree with everything you say :xmastongue:

[Majki2111]

I almost disagree with everything you say :xmastongue:

Most of people disagree with me...

[Nero Horse]

Most of people disagree with me...

Add me into that list. I only agree with you on Valencia and Singapore being somewhat nice tracks, that is all. And you come to a Ferrari forum and try to claim that Ferrari is "overrated" and Red Bull and Merc should be the symbols of winning...that is just...I have no words. :roll

And if you honestly think that Ferrari has gained most of it's status and popularity through Schumacher era, then I suggest you at least try to do a little bit of research on Ferrari and it's history, before claiming something so unbelievably ignorant. Now, don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean to insult you buddy, but it's obvious that sadly you have very little knowledge about Ferrari and the history behind this legend. So please buy yourself a good Ferrari history book, read it, and then see if you still think that Ferrari's status in the automotive and racing world has been achieved thanks to Schumacher era. :xmaswink:

[Hornet]

Regarding the engine, I do agree that the sport certainly cannot forever stay on a frozen V8 indefinitely. One of F1's attraction is that it was the pinnacle of motorsport, and the technology progress reflects that in the past. F1 is often the first to do something. So in that regard, we certainly could not sit on an outdated engine design for decades. Eventually, something has to be done. It was either opening up the V8 development again, or introducing a different engine formula.

It doesn't take much to guess which direction the sport would take. At first glance, V6 may seem like an odd engine formula when we talk about performance. I mean how could a V6 match up against the brutes of V10 and V12. However, I think the sport has proven that by taking new approach towards engine design, we could take a V6 and make it as powerful as it's bigger siblings. Personally I found that interesting. And despite the performance difference, I think all 3 manufacturer have done an amazing job is getting this new engine formula up at the level they are in it's first year.

I do hope that eventually, this new PU will be the most powerful combustion engine formula in autoracing.

[Majki2111]

Add me into that list. I only agree with you on Valencia and Singapore being somewhat nice tracks, that is all. And you come to a Ferrari forum and try to claim that Ferrari is "overrated" and Red Bull and Merc should be the symbols of winning...that is just...I have no words. :roll

And if you honestly think that Ferrari has gained most of it's status and popularity through Schumacher era, then I suggest you at least try to do a little bit of research on Ferrari and it's history, before claiming something so unbelievably ignorant. Now, don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean to insult you buddy, but it's obvious that sadly you have very little knowledge about Ferrari and the history behind this legend. So please buy yourself a good Ferrari history book, read it, and then see if you still think that Ferrari's status in the automotive and racing world has been achieved thanks to Schumacher era. :xmaswink:

Maybe I am wrong. Hey, I follow F1 on daily basis since 2006, but hey you can not say that Ferrari got the most of their new fans in that period. And they have been beaten regurarly by RBR in the past 5 years. They got their chance to get back on the top by this new regulations, but they again didn't get the most out of them. Same thing as EBD.
All I want to say is that way of thinking people have about F1 is too obsolete.

Regarding the engine, I do agree that the sport certainly cannot forever stay on a frozen V8 indefinitely. One of F1's attraction is that it was the pinnacle of motorsport, and the technology progress reflects that in the past. F1 is often the first to do something. So in that regard, we certainly could not sit on an outdated engine design for decades. Eventually, something has to be done. It was either opening up the V8 development again, or introducing a different engine formula.

It doesn't take much to guess which direction the sport would take. At first glance, V6 may seem like an odd engine formula when we talk about performance. I mean how could a V6 match up against the brutes of V10 and V12. However, I think the sport has proven that by taking new approach towards engine design, we could take a V6 and make it as powerful as it's bigger siblings. Personally I found that interesting. And despite the performance difference, I think all 3 manufacturer have done an amazing job is getting this new engine formula up at the level they are in it's first year.

I do hope that eventually, this new PU will be the most powerful combustion engine formula in autoracing.
That is well said. I am preetty convinced that at least 90% of fans don't want this tehnology to be developed and want V12 back. I mean. We don't know, maybe this modern car could beat V10 times in next few years. Just look at what Rosberg did in USA and Brasil in Interlagos. In USA he beat 2013 time and in Interlagos he almost reached Barichello's fastest lap ever driven there. Her only lacked 2 thents, I think.

[mandzipop]

Tifosi and glory hunters are not necessarily the same thing. I started supporting them in 1998. Neither Red Bull nor Mercedes have had time to build up a genuine non driver related fan-base. Mercedes popularity is mainly down to Lewis and previously Michael.

Singapore is an awesome track. It is a classic already. Tilke himself is a racer, however he has certain boundaries he as to work within and also the land that he is given isn't always very good. For instance China was a swamp.

I don't like the V6 power units. They aren't noisy enough. They need to sort that out, but I agree with you that they need to look to the future for that.

However you mention history. The thing is with motorsport, it is unique as history is as much as a part of it than the future. It is a celebration of technology. In 1894 the Paris to Rouen was the very first motor race. The pinicle of its class (being the first). Here we are 120 years later and it is still going strong. It is not just a physical feat but a technical and mental feat. It is an evolution in science and physical endurance. Fitness levels have to be that of an athlete, the designers have to be more creative. The history of the technology is also relevant as it can be recycled and renewed for technical advancement. Also due to the extreme of the sport, it used to be deadly. That passion and skills of upmost daring have created a culture within the sport of bravery and daring. This has never changed, however we celebrate the technology that saves the lives of drivers.

Then there is the glamour. That is part of the sport and that is also a historical element. They were dashing playboys celebrating life. Mingling with the stars and royalty. It is part of the foundations of F1 and that is still part of the sport.

Watch the film Grand Prix and you'll find not a lot has changed in the grand scheme of things. Similar to football, the first professional club is only 37 years older than that first proper race.

You can't build the sport for the future without celebrating its past. You need the history to inspire the minds of the future, the children who want to get involved in the sport and I don't just mean drivers.

[Suzie]

Ferrari is now the most popular teams and brands in autosport and it gained most of its status trough Schumacher era, which was 6 years long. The exact sam amount of time has been passing since Ferrari had good form where resault was one of cahampionships. I do not want to refuse Tifosi, but should we call Ferrari a simbol for winning in F1? For me it should be Red Bull now and Mercedes for next couple of years because we all know they have been outpreforming Ferrari for good amount of time.

I couldn't care less about the Red Bull or Mercedes 'brand' or whether they represent winning these days. Ferrari are my team and have been for almost 20 years, regardless of whether they win or not.

As for the new tracks, people complain about them if they deserve to be complained about. Simple fact is that most of the races at Valencia were boring. Before the Tilke-domes came in, everyone used to complain about how boring the Hungaroring was... now it has the perception of being a real old-school track. Fans will like new tracks if they are decent; for example I appreciate the effort that Austin puts in, and I liked Turkey too.

I accept that F1 has to change and embrace different markets but most of the new tracks seem to have come about because certain parties are willing to line Bernie's pockets - Russia immediately springs to mind. I'd sooner watch a race somewhere that has motorsport heritage and not because their politicians have an agenda. You can't honestly tell me that watching the cars go around a brand spanking new desert track with zero fans (but WONDERFUL facilities :roll) is in any way comparable to seeing the tifosi go crazy at Monza, or watch cars go up Eau Rouge, or hear the grandstands chanting in Interlagos. That's MORE than tradition - that is appreciating really damn good race tracks. Are the drivers stuck in the past then too? Because I'm sure 99% of them would say Spa and Suzuka are their favourite tracks as well, and that enthusiasm translates to the fans.

[fratelliferrari]

I couldn't care less about the Red Bull or Mercedes 'brand' or whether they represent winning these days. Ferrari are my team and have been for almost 20 years, regardless of whether they win or not.

As for the new tracks, people complain about them if they deserve to be complained about. Simple fact is that most of the races at Valencia were boring. Before the Tilke-domes came in, everyone used to complain about how boring the Hungaroring was... now it has the perception of being a real old-school track. Fans will like new tracks if they are decent; for example I appreciate the effort that Austin puts in, and I liked Turkey too.

I accept that F1 has to change and embrace different markets but most of the new tracks seem to have come about because certain parties are willing to line Bernie's pockets - Russia immediately springs to mind. I'd sooner watch a race somewhere that has motorsport heritage and not because their politicians have an agenda. You can't honestly tell me that watching the cars go around a brand spanking new desert track with zero fans (but WONDERFUL facilities :roll) is in any way comparable to seeing the tifosi go crazy at Monza, or watch cars go up Eau Rouge, or hear the grandstands chanting in Interlagos. That's MORE than tradition - that is appreciating really damn good race tracks. Are the drivers stuck in the past then too? Because I'm sure 99% of them would say Spa and Suzuka are their favourite tracks as well, and that enthusiasm translates to the fans.

I agree with almost everything you say Suzie! Apart from Hungaroring! In real life I like the track but I just can't put a good lap together on it with F1 games :xmastongue:

[Nero Horse]

Maybe I am wrong. Hey, I follow F1 on daily basis since 2006, but hey you can not say that Ferrari got the most of their new fans in that period. And they have been beaten regurarly by RBR in the past 5 years. They got their chance to get back on the top by this new regulations, but they again didn't get the most out of them. Same thing as EBD.
All I want to say is that way of thinking people have about F1 is too obsolete.

Well, you're not completely wrong, the Schumacher era certainly helped bring more fans to Ferrari, no doubt about that, but Ferrari already had millions of adoring fans waaay before Schumi even came to Ferrari in '96 and have gotten a lot of new fans after Schumi left. A period of success or lack thereof really isn't the most important part of Ferrari's popularity, that's a fact. RBR and Merc can win many races and championships, but they'll never be as popular or as great as Ferrari. There is just something really special about Ferrari that no other team will ever have, no matter how many races or championships they win. There's a good saying that defines Ferrari very well: "Form is temporary, but class is permanent." You just can't get such status and respect as Ferrari has by simply splurging money, building a good car, winning a couple of championships and then think it's all set and done, it just doesn't work that way and never will.


And it's really too bad that you think that things like traditions and sentimental values are obsolete in F1 and that RBR and Merc are the "symbols of winning" :roll, sad...really sad, but if that's your opinion then fine, most people would disagree with you though.

[TonyRizza]

Well, you're not completely wrong, the Schumacher era certainly helped bring more fans to Ferrari, no doubt about that, but Ferrari already had millions of adoring fans waaay before Schumi even came to Ferrari in '96 and have gotten a lot of new fans after Schumi left. A period of success or lack thereof really isn't the most important part of Ferrari's popularity, that's a fact. RBR and Merc can win many races and championships, but they'll never be as popular or as great as Ferrari. There is just something really special about Ferrari that no other team will ever have, no matter how many races or championships they win. There's a good saying that defines Ferrari very well: "Form is temporary, but class is permanent." You just can't get such status and respect as Ferrari has by simply splurging money, building a good car, winning a couple of championships and then think it's all set and done, it just doesn't work that way and never will.


And it's really too bad that you think that things like traditions and sentimental values are obsolete in F1 and that RBR and Merc are the "symbols of winning" :roll, sad...really sad, but if that's your opinion then fine, most people would disagree with you though.

everyone knows that merc bought this championship, how much more did they spend than ferrari? i believe in an article i read at the start of the season they spent over 500million

[fratelliferrari]

everyone knows that merc bought this championship, how much more did they spend than ferrari? i believe in an article i read at the start of the season they spent over 500million

Can't find it at the moment but I thought we were the team with the 4th budget!

[Majki2111]

Sometimes people are being too subjective over F1.
I wonder what would happen when we wno't have fossil fuels. I know Sun is in its's live form and that should be used in close future.

[Winter]

everyone knows that merc bought this championship, how much more did they spend than ferrari? i believe in an article i read at the start of the season they spent over 500million

Budget is very poor excuse for Ferraris lack of success.

[SS454]

Ferrari is iconic in motorsports, and rightfully so. Not only have Ferrari been around since the beginning of F1, they also have competed and been successful in some of the most prestigious races of all time. Their heritage in sports car racing is just as valued to motorsport as their heritage in F1. In most cases when one speaks of great moments, great eras, great cars, or great drivers, Ferrari is always present in the conversation. There is a very real passion that comes with Ferrari. To say Ferrari is a symbol of F1, or motorsports in general, I think absolutely and well deserved.

I disagree about modern tracks. I actually think the modern tracks are more challenging to F1 cars than the former tracks. Grab a racing simulator and do a few laps on some historic tracks and some modern ones. The modern tracks are very technical. Sure safety requirements have vastly improved and run off areas, or danger zones are becoming instinct. While this can be less thrilling to watch, one can't fault safety. While I think the new tracks have some great features... and some sections of corners that will earn their place in the history books (the esses at COTA), I think to me a lot of the general passion for the track has gone. Once upon a time tracks were formed over the natural landscape, and now they are engineered and terraformed a specific way. The result seems to lack a natural flow over vs a technical grouping of starts and stops. I am sure in time a few of todays modern tracks will be known a iconic tracks, but they must stand the course of time like other tracks have, such as Spa.

[Majki2111]

Nobody is interested in this?:-s

[aroutis]

Most of people disagree with me...

That should give you a hindsight about your PoV.
At any rate..,
Just because Ferrari is not always winning, and even has years to win, that does not take away the fact that is the only team that has been with F1 since its inception, the only team to contest in every single race and the team with the most wins and points and considered the most successful in the sport.
Because of that, it's by far the most attractive team in the sport, expected by everyone and anyone to be competitive, the pressure to this team is completely different than say RBR or even Mercedes, and also it is the team with the more fans world wide.

Now, you may think that just because RBR had a great streak (and good for them), that would mean they should be considered a symbol; Perhaps they should be considered a symbol, once they stuck thru thick and thin, perhaps stick even if they have say 12 non performing years. If they do that, then we can talk. Same goes for every single firm. But might I remind you that even McLaren failed to do that.

And even if I dislike McLaren, I do respect them, just like I respect Williams.


Maybe I am wrong. Hey, I follow F1 on daily basis since 2006
That definitely explains a lot. :)

[AfterLife]

About new tracks there are different opinions. I like some of them, others don't like some of them and so on but some classic tracks like Monza or Spa or even Malaysia have more fan. United states and India tracks have attracted people interest more than for example Russia.

About power unit I believe these power units are present and future of Formula1. People's frustration about the sound are sensible but how about comparing V12 vs V8. That will be the same frustration. We can't deny technology because of the noise.

Talking about Ferrari's position in Formula1, because Ferrari is the oldest member of the Formula1, There is a traditional way of feeling toward Ferrari and it is admirable. Personally I am not fan of some flamboyant talks from Ferrari because when they say it but lose it on the track, it makes Ferrari little awkward.

[Majki2111]

Still, tough, I don't understand why people value past more than future.

[Tony]

I want to start this threat because I think to many people are stuck in past and don't want to move on. One of the first things I really hate is when people start hating new born tracks by calling something called tradition which, I think, is overrated. For example: Ferrari.

Ferrari is now the most popular teams and brands in autosport and it gained most of its status trough Schumacher era, which was 6 years long. The exact sam amount of time has been passing since Ferrari had good form where resault was one of cahampionships. I do not want to refuse Tifosi, but should we call Ferrari a simbol for winning in F1? For me it should be Red Bull now and Mercedes for next couple of years because we all know they have been outpreforming Ferrari for good amount of time. And there is one other thing to be added: Most of tifosi think it will take at least one year for Ferrari to recover.

And now wath I wanted to say about the tracks. Most of the historic track gained their status by challenging corners and good races. For first I want to say that there is no challenging corners for today's technology in which, I think we can list F1. Example is most of Spa curves where drivers in nowday not so often makes mistakes. And for the car, you accually can not see any corner where you see car terring itself into pieces.
As for the second allegation I can say that rearly somebody is remembering good qualy/in most of the cases the race is remembered. That is wrong because I think F1 should be all thing together, and where all things shouzld be remembered as equally as possible. Most of the F1 fans do not give a chance for new tracks after only one or two races. For example is Valencia. Yes, firstly there were boring races and you all know what kind of race was in 2012. And Singapore ofcourse. Always good exciting races and qualys, too. I don't know how Monaco is so popular. The races there are not even close as good as in Singapore. But again there is always tradition, right?:xmasrolleyes::xmasfrown:
Maybe we all should promote todays F1 in best way we can for next generations rather than be nostalgic for past.

And the last thing I want to mention is this V6 era with turbo. I don't know if people just don't think ato all or are they so stupid... In my opinion they are testing it all for ead cars for the future which is a good thing for sure.
And yes, there were people complaining that there is too much strategy going on in F1 and saying it self that F1 is the in top of autosport. Again, I will say the same thing: If it is on the top of autosport, than it should be all thinngs together creating F1 with none of the things preceding.




P.S. I think this title deserves it's own threat because good discussion can be developed about it. Give this threat a chance, please.

I'm not sure if your serious about this or not? Ferrari had the largest fanbase going as far back as I can remember and that's the early 80's for me... and I'm sure they were still the biggest before that as well... it wasn't the early 2000's that made Ferrari popular...

[speedmaster]

May be after 20 years from now, you will understand why? when a new generation of fans come into the F1/Ferrari :xmasbiggrin: