The FIA shut down Ferrari's Engine Advantage [Archive] - TheScuderia.net

512 TR

8th October 2018, 10:49

There's no new information whatsoever in that clip. This is exactly the same speculations that everbody's is talking about. No one knows for sure what has happened. What have the added sensors shown the FIA that they didn't see when the spec 2 was introduced at first? What new data have the FIA got and what have they told Ferrari they can't do anymore? Obviously, the great traction out of slow corners and the great first acceleration phase is gone and it's possible to see that with the eyes only. But is it only down to the mapping of the hybrid parts or is it something more along with that? Also, do Ferrari have more sensors on their cars than the others? And why was it Renault who first said they saw something strange on their GPSs about Ferrari and told Merc and Allison about it? Why is Renault working with Merc against Ferrari? Who is Ferrari then working with in the same way? No one?

jgonzalesm6

8th October 2018, 13:12

Greig

8th October 2018, 14:39

Clearly we found a loophole and have been told by the FIA to change it. We are now chasing the lost straight line speed and probably having to change our setup hence now ruining tyres.

nani_s23

8th October 2018, 14:43

Clearly we found a loophole and have been told by the FIA to change it. We are now chasing the lost straight line speed and probably having to change our setup hence now ruining tyres.

Perfectly said...!! I’m on the same line.

512 TR

8th October 2018, 14:47

It could be as simple as Ferrari cutting back the power to save the engine all due to this 3 component allocation allotment that is allowed. If Ferrari keeps pushing their last engine and it blows, they will eventually go to the back of the grid. Either they push their last engine hard or dial it back, ultimately handing Mercedes the win for 2018.

If that's the case then Ferrari have basicly handed the win for 2018 to Merc anyway, by cutting back the power. They handed the win without blowing the engines. In the end the result is the same.

There could also be another explanation. Maybe Ferrari knew all along the FIA would eventually clamp down on what they have been doing this season in order to hide something else for next year. With more sensors now in place (if that's the case) and if Ferrari come out even more competitive next year compared to this year it will be harder for the FIA to satisfy the other teams (if they complain again) because Ferrari will be the most watched team from the start anyway. Bottom line, maybe Ferrari have something more up their sleeve which they keep for next year?

Anyway you look at it something has happened and there is no official explanation. So, for an outsider looking in, it seems some teams complained to the FIA because they couldn't figure out (technically) what Ferrari have been doing and the FIA then took the safe route (siding with the teams) and ordered Ferrari to stop doing what they have been doing even though they have no clue what's going on. In a situation like that one would think Merc should have found some merit in maybe winning against a "cheating Ferrari". Had they won anyway they could have been boasting about it. But no, it seems they took the safe route without understanding what's going on anyway. That's a first time ever some things may have been banned in F1 without any clear evidence of being against the rules. If something has been banned that is.

zike

8th October 2018, 15:23

If that's the case then Ferrari have basicly handed the win for 2018 to Merc anyway, by cutting back the power. They handed the win without blowing the engines. In the end the result is the same.

There could also be another explanation. Maybe Ferrari knew all along the FIA would eventually clamp down on what they have been doing this season in order to hide something else for next year. With more sensors now in place (if that's the case) and if Ferrari come out even more competitive next year compared to this year it will be harder for the FIA to satisfy the other teams (if they complain again) because Ferrari will be the most watched team from the start anyway. Bottom line, maybe Ferrari have something more up their sleeve which they keep for next year?

Anyway you look at it something has happened and there is no official explanation. So, for an outsider looking in, it seems some teams complained to the FIA because they couldn't figure out (technically) what Ferrari have been doing and the FIA then took the safe route (siding with the teams) and ordered Ferrari to stop doing what they have been doing even though they have no clue what's going on. In a situation like that one would think Merc should have found some merit in maybe winning against a "cheating Ferrari". Had they won anyway they could have been boasting about it. But no, it seems they took the safe route without understanding what's going on anyway. That's a first time ever some things may have been banned in F1 without any clear evidence of being against the rules. If something has been banned that is.

So ferrari needs to find some balls and call the bluff, as not to stop doing anything without the explanation why they should. But this team has been ballless for ages.

FerrariDave

8th October 2018, 15:49

7523

jgonzalesm6

8th October 2018, 16:36

If that's the case then Ferrari have basicly handed the win for 2018 to Merc anyway, by cutting back the power. They handed the win without blowing the engines. In the end the result is the same.

There could also be another explanation. Maybe Ferrari knew all along the FIA would eventually clamp down on what they have been doing this season in order to hide something else for next year. With more sensors now in place (if that's the case) and if Ferrari come out even more competitive next year compared to this year it will be harder for the FIA to satisfy the other teams (if they complain again) because Ferrari will be the most watched team from the start anyway. Bottom line, maybe Ferrari have something more up their sleeve which they keep for next year?

Anyway you look at it something has happened and there is no official explanation. So, for an outsider looking in, it seems some teams complained to the FIA because they couldn't figure out (technically) what Ferrari have been doing and the FIA then took the safe route (siding with the teams) and ordered Ferrari to stop doing what they have been doing even though they have no clue what's going on. In a situation like that one would think Merc should have found some merit in maybe winning against a "cheating Ferrari". Had they won anyway they could have been boasting about it. But no, it seems they took the safe route without understanding what's going on anyway. That's a first time ever some things may have been banned in F1 without any clear evidence of being against the rules. If something has been banned that is.

We definitely found a loophole....but it more than likely stresses the components so that's why the dial down. We're definitely hiding this from Charlie and the FIA hence as to why we are covering up the camera since it's pointing directly at the steering wheel; these cars take an hour to get ready so it's probably some display on the steering wheel where it shows the harvesting procedure of the batteries maybe??

We're going to use this tech in 2019 as a launch platform for the next up-and-coming Spec engines.

jgonzalesm6

9th October 2018, 09:44

[Motorsport]

FIA: Ferrari slump "not linked at all" to battery sensors

Greig

9th October 2018, 09:50

We definitely found a loophole....but it more than likely stresses the components so that's why the dial down. We're definitely hiding this from Charlie and the FIA hence as to why we are covering up the camera since it's pointing directly at the steering wheel; these cars take an hour to get ready so it's probably some display on the steering wheel where it shows the harvesting procedure of the batteries maybe??

We're going to use this tech in 2019 as a launch platform for the next up-and-coming Spec engines.

I doubt we would throw the titles away by turning down our engines, how can we hide something they know about?????? and if hiding it why would we put it on display on the steering wheel? not the greatest place to hide things having it on display :-D

512 TR

9th October 2018, 10:49

The idiot Charlie Whiting is at it again...

FIA: Ferrari slump "not linked at all" to battery sensors
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-ferrari-slump-not-linked-at-all-to-battery-sensors/3192117/

"Pushed on whether he could clarify exactly when the second sensor had been added to the Ferrari, Whiting said: “No. If I do that, unfortunately I will be telling you all about Ferrari’s car and hence I will be telling all the other teams about Ferrari’s car, and that is not something I can do."

Number one. It was Renault that told Merc about it and the Allison told the FIA about it. The "strange" GPS figures that is. Rivals already know more about Ferrari's car/package than apparently the FIA do. So what is Charlie on about that he doesn't want to disclose? Anybody who is following this closely can see that is a contradictory statement. Number two. What has the timing of the second sensor to do with the technology itself? Why can't he disclose when it was put on the car? Does it mean the FIA still know more than the rivals do and if they say when it happened then rivals will be able to get even more information about it by making some cross reference of the timing? And if the second sensor has nothing all to do with the slump then why is the FIA hiding information about all of this? Is this the new F1 that was promised by bringing fans closer to the sport and the inner workings? Guess statements like that only look good on paper.

If you take all the above and the "special tyres" brought in once the season had already started then it's hard to just let i go and say everything is normal. The FIA and Liberty are being saved by the fact that Ferrari (pitwall and drivers) have been making huge mistakes this year. We just don't have the ammo to keep on shooting. That's why everyone at Ferrari are keeping quiet (biting their tongues).

jragona

9th October 2018, 11:07

All very convenient. I do not expect Ferrari slowed themselves down, it must be related.

WRX202

9th October 2018, 15:40

KimiBot

9th October 2018, 18:38

After a lot of articles I believe it's more of a tyre/suspension issue. In terms of top end speed we are still up there but tyre management has gone down the drain. Graining, blisters and all. It seems the car is no longer planted on rails like before and very nervous.

I think so too, somehow tyres are no good for Ferrari anymore, and that happened so fast...I am searching my tinfoil hat atm.

Ed Harley

10th October 2018, 08:10

I'm afraid effects of departures of James Allison and Simone Resta are starting to show.

WRX202

10th October 2018, 08:16

I'm afraid effects of departures of James Allison and Simone Resta are starting to show.

yes, by the FIA adding one sensor on our car for each one of them..... :lol

Ed Harley

10th October 2018, 08:32

FIA's sensors or amount of them have very little to do with tyre wear and car development in general.

WRX202

10th October 2018, 09:06

FIA's sensors or amount of them have very little to do with tyre wear and car development in general.

i know it was just a bit of sarcastic joke. I tend to think it is the other way round to be honest. Ever since the two left Ferrari became a serious contender. No one can deny we started strong this year, the downfall is all due to internal issues within the team. This year is done for, let's hope things are settled before 2019 season so maybe finally Ferrari can capitalise on their progress.

Hornet

10th October 2018, 16:23

512 TR

11th October 2018, 21:11

There is no conspiracy of FIA trying to stop Ferrari from winning.
They are just doing what they always do, closing loopholes that could lead to expensive development race.

IMO it's similar with Renault's mass damper. FIA didn't want it to lead to some extreme development, so they invoke the magic rule of movable aero part to ban it.

With a thinking like that the FIA might as well make F1 a spec series and be done with it. Oh wait, that's exactly what it seems will happen in the future...

Ban all development that is too hard to control. Reminds me of an ideology that failed in the 20th century, someone just forgot to tell the chinese about it.

Golfsmith

12th October 2018, 05:05

I believe it's more of a tyre/suspension issue
Same as what happened in France.

I'm afraid effects of departures of James Allison and Simone Resta are starting to show.
Not James ,he never showed what a difference he can make,yes Simon I believed,sees Sauber performance rerentley.

Ed Harley

12th October 2018, 12:12

It looks like he showed enough for Mercedes to hire him and Mercedes seem to be doing quite well.

mwk360

12th October 2018, 12:17

Same as what happened in France.

Not James ,he never showed what a difference he can make,yes Simon I believed,sees Sauber performance rerentley.

Simone has been a loss for sure, the sf-71h has had terrible aero that keeps failing since silverstone and forcing the team to revert to old specs and barely progressing with the car this year outside of PU

Smintlemon

13th October 2018, 13:23

This is one of the reasons for mercedes rise after summerbreak !

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/retroscena-mercedes-spesi-30-milioni-extra-budget-battere-ferrari/3192098/

wisepie

13th October 2018, 14:59

This is one of the reasons for mercedes rise after summerbreak !

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/retroscena-mercedes-spesi-30-milioni-extra-budget-battere-ferrari/3192098/

Then maybe a budget cap would have given us the championship after all?! 30 million Euro for revised rear suspension and heat-absorbing wheels, that's just the start of Merc's latest attack on Ferrari! All we needed was Sergio M's firm hand to guide and inspire us but sadly that was a big loss to motivation.:-E

Smintlemon

14th October 2018, 11:51

Then maybe a budget cap would have given us the championship after all?! 30 million Euro for revised rear suspension and heat-absorbing wheels, that's just the start of Merc's latest attack on Ferrari! All we needed was Sergio M's firm hand ot guide and inspire us but sadly that was a big loss to motivation.:-E

well, yes. When it was foreseeable that SM is serverely ill they, first of all was MA, lost the direction/ motivation. Like a scared big bunch of chicken.
And Seb needs a calm and cool background to give his maximum.

512 TR

16th October 2018, 11:42

It's been very quiet about all of this for well over a week know. I guess everyone is happy about the situation and nobody wants to go too deep into this. Probably because of all the dirty little secrets in other places (teams). Ferrari can't say much either as they've made too many mistakes of their own this season. It would just look silly and pathetic blaming the FIA at this moment.

But the questions are still there and should not go away. One big question is why Renault decided to share its GPS data with Merc regarding Ferrari's rapid early acceleration exiting slower corners (great low speed traction). And also obviously when exactly the extra sensors were placed on the cars. Meaning, what's the difference between the spec 2 and the spec 3 PU? For the record, Ferrari won with the spec 1 (Australia, Bahrain), spec 2 (Canada, Britain) and the spec 3 (Belgium) PUs. Shouldn't then there be something "fishy" already at the start of the season? Especially as early as Bahrain (Australia was a little bit lucky).

I for one believe the swing in Mercs favour is down to both the FIA shutting down Ferrari and Merc's development with the new suspension and heat-absorbing new rims. 3-4 tenths because of the shut-down and 3-4 tenths because of Merc's development compared to Ferrari's dito. Had the FIA not shut it down then Ferrari could have affored being outdeveloped by Merc and still be competitive. At least more competitve than in the last three races. Looks like the powers that are took the safe route.

wisepie

16th October 2018, 16:52

Brembo

16th October 2018, 17:38

I'm thinking along the same lines, and instead of still having a championship to fight for, we have been on the back foot since Singapore and HAM will run away with it. Well done to all concerned for making F1 into a Formula Mercedes/FIA/tyre preservation competition, OK so Ferrari are possibly not blameless either, but it has ruined the season for us and for most F1 fans.:-E

Well said indeed Wisepie!

Greig

16th October 2018, 17:40

I for one believe the swing in Mercs favour is down to both the FIA shutting down Ferrari and Merc's development with the new suspension and heat-absorbing new rims. 3-4 tenths because of the shut-down and 3-4 tenths because of Merc's development compared to Ferrari's dito. Had the FIA not shut it down then Ferrari could have affored being outdeveloped by Merc and still be competitive. At least more competitve than in the last three races. Looks like the powers that are took the safe route.

If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.

wisepie

17th October 2018, 11:43

If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.

But has anyone actually confirmed in public that Ferrari have been cheating, or at least illegally exploiting a loop-hole? It's been kept very quiet despite the rumours and now it seems the FIA are questioning some of Merc's rear wheel cooling properties........the loop-holes are endless, it seems.:roll

512 TR

17th October 2018, 17:26

If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.

How can a loophole be deemed cheating if no one can, officially, explain where the supposed gain comes from? For a governing body that has the mandate to rule on everything in the sport the same rules should apply as in normal civil courts. Meaning the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. It's not enough to just say something is illegal or cheating if it can't be explained. Clearly, Whiting says he can't talk about it because frankly he obviously doesn't know how the system works. It took the FIA a few weeks to pass Mercs new wheel rims even though a similar RBR design was deemed illegal in 2012. It has taken the FIA more than six months to even try to understand Ferrari's system. This is the first time ever something in F1 has been deemed illegal by the FIA without an official explanation. It obviously fits perfectly with helping Merc win it all again.

Greig

17th October 2018, 17:34

How can a loophole be deemed cheating if no one can, officially, explain where the supposed gain comes from? For a governing body that has the mandate to rule on everything in the sport the same rules should apply as in normal civil courts. Meaning the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. It's not enough to just say something is illegal or cheating if it can't be explained. Clearly, Whiting says he can't talk about it because frankly he obviously doesn't know how the system works. It took the FIA a few weeks to pass Mercs new wheel rims even though a similar RBR design was deemed illegal in 2012. It has taken the FIA more than six months to even try to understand Ferrari's system. This is the first time ever something in F1 has been deemed illegal by the FIA without an official explanation. It obviously fits perfectly with helping Merc win it all again.

It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.

If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.

ferrari1.8t

17th October 2018, 17:36

ferrari1.8t

17th October 2018, 17:54

It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.

If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.

https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/fia-clears-mercedes-design-after-ferrari-query_sto6975410/story.shtml

Snippet from the article:

Ferrari asked why Mercedes was able to run with a rim design that featured a collection of holes that appeared similar to a concept that Red Bull was banned from using at the 2012 Canadian Grand Prix.

Red Bull's outlawed rims forced the team to make modifications to its front wheel hubs, because holes that channelled air from the brake ducts to the outside of the wheel were ruled to be moveable aerodynamic devices.

Under the then-article 3.15 of the Formula 1 Technical Regulations, teams were told that "any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance" must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and must remain "immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

Greig, an honest question...why are you always so quick to defend the FIA, Pirelli, Merc and Hamilton? You do run a Ferrari Fan Forum. Its so strange to me....You have to admit that the FIA has made some shady calls over the last few seasons during the Merc dominance. No?

aroutis

17th October 2018, 17:55

Greig

17th October 2018, 17:57

It's way worse.
When you have drivers from other teams moving over for Mercedes (ie. Occon) then openly admitting that they did it under orders, and nothing is done about it, when we've seen cars with merc engines trying to hamper Ferrari cars' races, it's not just about the whole advantage.

It's about the whole "Mercedes championship" that we're witnessing.

He done it off his own decision not a team order? Has LeClerc not made it easy for our guys to pass lol What cars with Merc engines have tried to hamper our race by doing anything but race? again more fantasy to make you sleep better at night?

Greig

17th October 2018, 18:00

https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/fia-clears-mercedes-design-after-ferrari-query_sto6975410/story.shtml

Snippet from the article:

Ferrari asked why Mercedes was able to run with a rim design that featured a collection of holes that appeared similar to a concept that Red Bull was banned from using at the 2012 Canadian Grand Prix.

Red Bull's outlawed rims forced the team to make modifications to its front wheel hubs, because holes that channelled air from the brake ducts to the outside of the wheel were ruled to be moveable aerodynamic devices.

Under the then-article 3.15 of the Formula 1 Technical Regulations, teams were told that "any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance" must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and must remain "immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

Greig, an honest question...why are you always so quick to defend the FIA, Pirelli, Merc and Hamilton? You do run a Ferrari Fan Forum. Its so strange to me....You have to admit that the FIA has made some shady calls over the last few seasons during the Merc dominance. No?

In a bid to clear up the matter, Ferrari elected to query it with the FIA to try to understand if it needed to pursue its own solution or whether Mercedes had pushed things too far.
Following the Ferrari request, it has emerged that the FIA has looked in detail at the design and concept of the Mercedes hubs and rims – which one source has described as 'interesting'.

The FIA's investigation has concluded that what Mercedes is doing is very different to the 2012 Red Bull system and is fully in compliance with the regulations.

Both Mercedes and Ferrari have subsequently been informed about the FIA's ruling on the matter.

You seem to have not quoted the full article???? why not.....So not the same as Mercs REAR wheels then.....lol

I am not defending them in particular, just find people blaming FIA etc to be rather embarrassing to Ferrari fans.....you want me to sit here and say oh we are not winning because the FIA said so lol no thanks....you can carry on believing what you want but won't make it true.

FIA has not stopped us winning this year, our own mistakes and again a development stall has seen us not win, if you would rather say the FIA decided it then so be it. Merc are not some mickey mouse team with no ability.

ferrari1.8t

17th October 2018, 18:09

So not the same as Mercs REAR wheels then.....lol

I am not defending them in particular, just find people blaming FIA etc to be rather embarrassing to Ferrari fans.....you want me to sit here and say oh we are not winning because the FIA said so lol no thanks....you can carry on believing what you want but won't make it true.

FIA has not stopped us winning this year, our own mistakes and again a development stall has seen us not win, if you would rather say the FIA decided it then so be it. Merc are not some mickey mouse team with no ability.

Thanks for your response.

Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.

Greig

17th October 2018, 18:22

Thanks for your response.

Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.

The FIA can't influence our mistakes on the pitwall and on the track, unless Seb is also part of the FIA plan?

What do the FIA get from Merc winning? if anything Merc winning over and over is bad for Liberty so why would they be assisting it?

ferrari1.8t

17th October 2018, 18:28

The FIA can't influence our mistakes on the pitwall and on the track, unless Seb is also part of the FIA plan?

What do the FIA get from Merc winning? if anything Merc winning over and over is bad for Liberty so why would they be assisting it?

Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

Its an old article but...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/129388/formula-1-team-payments-for-2017-revealed

"After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?

mwk360

17th October 2018, 19:17

HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAaVsAA1rdL.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAKX4AANT6B.jpg

FerrariF60

17th October 2018, 19:56

HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAaVsAA1rdL.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAKX4AANT6B.jpg

HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm so is Matia Binotto givin away our engine secrets to Merc and Co.....maybe

NasI

17th October 2018, 20:05

That's why we want Italian blood.

mwk360

17th October 2018, 20:06

HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm so is Matia Binotto givin away our engine secrets to Merc and Co.....maybe

lol i was posting that as a joke, but saw on twitter some quote about wolff currently keeping his eyes on ferrari's internal situation at the moment (imo could be the MA vs MB stuff about promotions etc)

we know mercs are smart they steal all the staff they can so that they weaken the other teams and have extra resource pools. Its like playing for an international team but then getting an offer to play in an all star team or something. Mercs particularly like nabbing ferrari guys too. so never know maybe binotto is going bon voyage next year since MA looks to be staying lol maybe its all dirt and rumors sites spreading since there's nothing really interesting happening in f1 for awhile now

Greig

17th October 2018, 20:26

Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

Its an old article but...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/129388/formula-1-team-payments-for-2017-revealed

"After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?

Just like we agree to get more than the rest regardless? FIA don't decide who gets what money that's nothing to do with them thats up to the owners of the sport, do they fix all the other series they govern out of interest or just F1?

So all our mistakes this year are part of the FIA plan? come on we have lost it all on our own.

p.s at least the Leafs are doing well :-D

ferrari1.8t

17th October 2018, 20:53

Just like we agree to get more than the rest regardless? FIA don't decide who gets what money that's nothing to do with them thats up to the owners of the sport, do they fix all the other series they govern out of interest or just F1?

So all our mistakes this year are part of the FIA plan? come on we have lost it all on our own.

p.s at least the Leafs are doing well :-D

Hey, I don’t have all the answers, just a lot of questions and silly suspicions I guess. It sucks more when it “seems” Merc is getting their way or help of any kind from the FIA/Liberty.

And yes, at least one of my teams is finally doing well! Go Leafs Go!! Lol

Ed Harley

18th October 2018, 04:15

HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .
Ferrari want to sign Toto Wolff?

evo_spook

18th October 2018, 07:51

Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

Its an old article but...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/129388/formula-1-team-payments-for-2017-revealed

"After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?

You don't understand how targets work.

If you boss goes, Make two sales and I give you a bonus. You are not guaranteed those two sales, you have to aim to meet it.

512 TR

18th October 2018, 10:05

It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.

There is no such "rule" as being agianst the spirit of the rules. That's an MSM invention and up until today it has never flied in any legal process conducted by the FIA. Either something is clearly against the written rules or it's not. Most stuff that is deemed questionable is very often given the pass by the FIA and some times a redesign is later given the go ahead. Obviously the Ferrari system can't be redesign in-season but can only be turned off.

The link to the news about the RBR rims were posted here above by ferrari1.8t. It went' pretty swiftly for the FIA to declare the Merc rims as legal and why that is on the basis of the illegal RBR rims. Meaning that there is a difference according to the FIA. They clearly now explained why they think the Merc rims are legal. I never said the Merc rims were illegal, only similar to RBR's. No such clarification about the Ferrari system has emerged and probably never will.

If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.

That's a good question. The only explanation, besides going down the "incompetent" route, is that there is something more than can be unleashed next year which will make this row seem like nothing.

The new Merc rims and suspension may not have been enough for Merc to clearly start winning easily again. They might also not have been sure if the development would work, hence the help from the FIA just in case. Now both their development and the "help" worked in tandem.

Stormy

18th October 2018, 13:45

I doubt Binotto and Wolf will make conspiracies against Ferrari out in the open like that :rotfl

mwk360

18th October 2018, 14:10

lol it was just a joke, i believe they are quite old pics, but wolff is interested in the internal guys of ferrari at the moment with all the inner conflict and changes, would suck to lose more guys to mercs

ferrari1.8t

18th October 2018, 15:00

You don't understand how targets work.

If you boss goes, Make two sales and I give you a bonus. You are not guaranteed those two sales, you have to aim to meet it.

I understand how targets work. I just find is suspicious how a team with Merc's record coming back into F1 would set those targets. They were a mid-field team at best. Would Haas, Force India, Marussia, Cateram etc have targeted WCC's coming into the sport? Not likely. Even Hamilton signing with them shocked the F1 world, as if he knew of what was to come...

Its all about money. Maybe Brawn still has a share in the profits after the sale of Brawn GP to Mercedes. More conspiracy theories I guess.

evo_spook

18th October 2018, 15:43

I understand how targets work. I just find is suspicious how a team with Merc's record coming back into F1 would set those targets. They were a mid-field team at best. Would Haas, Force India, Marussia, Cateram etc have targeted WCC's coming into the sport? Not likely. Even Hamilton signing with them shocked the F1 world, as if he knew of what was to come...

Its all about money. Maybe Brawn still has a share in the profits after the sale of Brawn GP to Mercedes. More conspiracy theories I guess.

eh?!

Mercedes have being supplying top engines for decades.

The team set up by Brawn had recently won a WDC and know what they was doing if given a budget.

Lewis was informed of the mercs potential when signing up. Merc had geared 2012 and 2013 to winning in 2014.

You are talking nonsense.

ferrari1.8t

18th October 2018, 15:50

eh?!

Mercedes have being supplying top engines for decades.

The team set up by Brawn had recently won a WDC and know what they was doing if given a budget.

Lewis was informed of the mercs potential when signing up. Merc had geared 2012 and 2013 to winning in 2014.

You are talking nonsense.

From 2010 - 2013 (V8 Era), they were consistently 4 and 5 in the WCC as manufactures. Hamilton would sign with a 5th place team merely based on potential? No nonsense here, just my opinion.

wisepie

18th October 2018, 16:46

Thanks for your response.

Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.

Have to agree, and Greig mentions a 'development stall' but it just doesn't add up that we can go backwards so quickly, that's not even taking into account any mistakes by Seb or the pit-wall. It's obviously true that the final stage of this year's championship will now be a dumbed-down affair and the FIA's leniency towards Mercedes (special tyres/wheels etc) will not please Liberty, nor the fans who wanted to see a championship worth watching.:-s

Greig

18th October 2018, 17:46

There is no such "rule" as being agianst the spirit of the rules. That's an MSM invention and up until today it has never flied in any legal process conducted by the FIA. Either something is clearly against the written rules or it's not. Most stuff that is deemed questionable is very often given the pass by the FIA and some times a redesign is later given the go ahead. Obviously the Ferrari system can't be redesign in-season but can only be turned off.

The link to the news about the RBR rims were posted here above by ferrari1.8t. It went' pretty swiftly for the FIA to declare the Merc rims as legal and why that is on the basis of the illegal RBR rims. Meaning that there is a difference according to the FIA. They clearly now explained why they think the Merc rims are legal. I never said the Merc rims were illegal, only similar to RBR's. No such clarification about the Ferrari system has emerged and probably never will.

That's a good question. The only explanation, besides going down the "incompetent" route, is that there is something more than can be unleashed next year which will make this row seem like nothing.

The new Merc rims and suspension may not have been enough for Merc to clearly start winning easily again. They might also not have been sure if the development would work, hence the help from the FIA just in case. Now both their development and the "help" worked in tandem.

If the rev limit is 17k but Ferrari find a way to bypass the rev counter and run 19k then that would be against the spirit of the rules, yes it does exist and the FIA are very often having to clarify rules based on this. Ferrari seem to have bypassed the FIA way to measure boost, clearly this is not legal but they have not broken any rules just the spirit of the rules hence why the FIA have probably told us to stop it or else face a protest and risk losing race results.

The Merc rear hubs are not the same as the RBR front wheels, when teams come up with these ideas they don't just make them and hope they are legal they will be in contact with the FIA and make sure they are legal. FIA only clarified because Ferrari asked, probably so we can develop the same idea. The FIA also said our battery system was legal at first, but I guess they got some more info that resulted in them realising what was really going on hence more sensors and our sudden loss of the extra boost.

It seems you will just believe that the FIA are out to help Merc for no valid reason and anything else you will just ignore so there really is not much point trying to debate it.

Greig

18th October 2018, 17:52

Have to agree, and Greig mentions a 'development stall' but it just doesn't add up that we can go backwards so quickly, that's not even taking into account any mistakes by Seb or the pit-wall. It's obviously true that the final stage of this year's championship will now be a dumbed-down affair and the FIA's leniency towards Mercedes (special tyres/wheels etc) will not please Liberty, nor the fans who wanted to see a championship worth watching.:-s

The special tyres we won Silverstone with and could have France if not for a Seb mistake? How can we blame the FIA for that? Have we gone backwards or it simply we have stalled and Merc have gone forwards? Looks to me we were using the extra boost to make all our time on the straights meaning we could run more downforce, now we have to run less downforce to regain straightline speed at the cost of sliding around more and hurting our tyres....

Without all our mistakes then I have no doubt we would be winning the title this year, we would have been well clear of Lewis and they probably would not have spent so much in this years development war.

doublesixes

18th October 2018, 19:36

If only Sergio were alive....

wisepie

19th October 2018, 08:07

The special tyres we won Silverstone with and could have France if not for a Seb mistake? How can we blame the FIA for that? Have we gone backwards or it simply we have stalled and Merc have gone forwards? Looks to me we were using the extra boost to make all our time on the straights meaning we could run more downforce, now we have to run less downforce to regain straightline speed at the cost of sliding around more and hurting our tyres....

Without all our mistakes then I have no doubt we would be winning the title this year, we would have been well clear of Lewis and they probably would not have spent so much in this years development war.

I take your point Greig but despite us winning at Silverstone with the 'special' tyres which I believe had been requested initially by Mercedes/FIA because some re-surfacing had been done at various circuits, I still smell a rat and everything this season has literally played into Mercedes' hands, even without our own errors. But what do I know?!:roll

512 TR

19th October 2018, 10:58

If the rev limit is 17k but Ferrari find a way to bypass the rev counter and run 19k then that would be against the spirit of the rules, yes it does exist and the FIA are very often having to clarify rules based on this. Ferrari seem to have bypassed the FIA way to measure boost, clearly this is not legal but they have not broken any rules just the spirit of the rules hence why the FIA have probably told us to stop it or else face a protest and risk losing race results.

No, bypassing the lev limit is clearly against the written rules. The sporting rules are a framework in every dimension, acceleration included. You have to stay within the boundries of that framwork (lenght, width, height, output of all PU parts etc). If Ferrari have a split battery system that somehow stores more than 4Kj and can then output more than that amount per lap, even though the battery casing is deemed legal, then Ferrari have found a loophole that the rules have overlooked. It's obviously done by some software code and the split battery makes it possible. If the FIA can't prove it's against the rules even though they see, with the sensors, that the output is higher than 4Kj per lap then it has to be tried in the FIA court. Up until a trial and a ruling the accused should be treated like any innocent. You do know that all cars are still unique? F1 is not a spec series...yet.

The Merc rear hubs are not the same as the RBR front wheels, when teams come up with these ideas they don't just make them and hope they are legal they will be in contact with the FIA and make sure they are legal. FIA only clarified because Ferrari asked, probably so we can develop the same idea. The FIA also said our battery system was legal at first, but I guess they got some more info that resulted in them realising what was really going on hence more sensors and our sudden loss of the extra boost.

Again, I never said they are the same. I said they are similar as they have holes in the rims. The holes carry air through them and you can therefor make the case the rims become a movable aero device. The FIA don't share that view, hence the recent clarification. As for the Ferrari system, they still don't understand what's going on so they sent the idiot Whiting out to officially state the FIA can't share any info because then other teams will find out...yeah right! But once you say you have some info then you should also be able to make a clarification. Strange how that last part somehow never happens....

It seems you will just believe that the FIA are out to help Merc for no valid reason and anything else you will just ignore so there really is not much point trying to debate it.

You have to admit it stinks when you also ad the "special" tyres this season. In fact it was too bad, in hindsight, that Kimi knocked Lewis back to last at Silverstone. Had that not happened Lewis would have probably won even with his bad start (as he only made one stop and was still fast) and Merc would then have had a clean sweep on the "special tyres".

Also, wouldn't it be better to have a good and fair fight for both championships until the end of the season instead of the FIA shutting it all down? Had then Ferrari won at least one title they could have opened up a case in court and try it. Better to then lose it and force a clarification regarding the system for the future than this current hypocrisy. No?

jgonzalesm6

19th October 2018, 14:11

No, bypassing the lev limit is clearly against the written rules. The sporting rules are a framework in every dimension, acceleration included. You have to stay within the boundries of that framwork (lenght, width, height, output of all PU parts etc). If Ferrari have a split battery system that somehow stores more than 4Kj and can then output more than that amount per lap, even though the battery casing is deemed legal, then Ferrari have found a loophole that the rules have overlooked. It's obviously done by some software code and the split battery makes it possible. If the FIA can't prove it's against the rules even though they see, with the sensors, that the output is higher than 4Kj per lap then it has to be tried in the FIA court. Up until a trial and a ruling the accused should be treated like any innocent. You do know that all cars are still unique? F1 is not a spec series...yet.

It's not about the KW = HP, that's capped by the FIA. It's about harvesting and deployment.....meaning, Ferrari is able to harvest the batteries faster and deploy at any given time on the track whereas our rivals, MB & RB, take time to harvest and deploy whether thru out the MGU-H or MGU-K or both.

Greig

19th October 2018, 17:46

Again, I never said they are the same. I said they are similar as they have holes in the rims. The holes carry air through them and you can therefor make the case the rims become a movable aero device. The FIA don't share that view, hence the recent clarification. As for the Ferrari system, they still don't understand what's going on so they sent the idiot Whiting out to officially state the FIA can't share any info because then other teams will find out...yeah right! But once you say you have some info then you should also be able to make a clarification. Strange how that last part somehow never happens....

FIA don't have to tell everyone how someones IP works, why would they? They have said the Merc rims are not the same as RBR front rims nothing more, they are not telling everyone how to do the same lol

As I said though your view won't change so not much point as you believe we have done a perfect season no mistakes and done the best development only for the FIA to stop us winning :-)

512 TR

21st October 2018, 00:35

FIA don't have to tell everyone how someones IP works, why would they? They have said the Merc rims are not the same as RBR front rims nothing more, they are not telling everyone how to do the same lol

As I said though your view won't change so not much point as you believe we have done a perfect season no mistakes and done the best development only for the FIA to stop us winning :-)

You should start reading my post better and more closely then if that's your opinion.

Ferrari can't say much either as they've made too many mistakes of their own this season. It would just look silly and pathetic blaming the FIA at this moment.

Me on the other hand, I'm free to point fingers at anyone and any time when I feel there's something that stinks.