Has Mercedes been cheating? Possible corrupt FIA?

[SS454]

In the world of motorsports, anytime a team dominates, speculation arises that said team could be cheating. My thoughts in this thread are simply speculation and assumption, as obviously to date Mercedes has not been caught cheating. What I do know about how brutally and unbelievably corrupt the world is, it would be naive to think that there can't be corruption in Formula 1 and/or the FIA. Throughout F1 history there have been examples of strange decisions or rulings that seemed to benefit the dominant team of that era. A tire change in 2013 that made the Red Bull unbeatable, another tire change in 2018 because specifically Mercedes were blistering their tires. Of course the witch hunt against Ferrari's engine in late 2019. What we do know, is Mercedes has held a dominance over the entire hybrid era, with the only competition coming from Ferrari whilst they were found to be cheating.

Average Laptimes in Qualifying:
2014 - Mercedes was 0.688s faster than Williams-Mercedes who was the next best team, 1.099s faster than Ferrari
2015 - 0.630s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2016 - 0.734s faster (RBR 2nd best)
2017 - 0.165s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2018 - 0.110s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2019 - 0.111s faster (Ferrari 2nd best), 0.317s faster before Ferrari's updates in Belgium.

2017-2019 look to be good competitive years. Unfortunately Ferrari's party mode was apparently not legal, and a technical analysis showed Ferrari has dropped upwards of 80 horsepower from their 2019 power unit. I am certain Ferrari didn't gain 80 horsepower after Hungary 2019, I believe they have been tricking the fuel flow since 2017. This doesn't suggest Mercedes has an 80 hp advantage in 2020, as Ferrari had a clear power advantage in 2019, perhaps upwards of 20-30 hp. Also Ferrari is showing to be the worst engine in 2020, it is reasonable to assume that Renault and Honda are down somewhere between 20 and 40 horsepower to Mercedes.

I don't question how a team like Mercedes can be monstrously dominant, it even makes sense 2014-2015. What I question is how they are able to maintain their gap over the competition year after year.

In 7 years Honda, Renault, and Ferrari can't find a legal way to close the power gap down to Mercedes?

In 7 years Red Bull and Ferrari, who have developed dominant chassis' in the past, can't close the gap to Mercedes?

In 7 years, despite having the best chassis and engine, Mercedes have found enormous gains each and every year.

Check out Mercedes' performance around Silverstone, which as we know is Lewis Hamilton's home grand prix.

2014 - 1:35.766
2015 - 1:32.248 (-3.518s)
2016 - 1:29.287 (-2.961s)
2017 - 1:26.600 (-2.687s)*aero changes
2018 - 1:25.892 (-0.708s)
2019 - 1:25.093 (-0.799s)
2020 - 1:24.303 (-0.790s)

With teams in factory lock down, how does Mercedes gain 30ish horsepower on their already dominant and impossibly efficient engine, and how do they find nearly 8 tenths with virtually no development between March and July?

It is possible Mercedes simply is that good. They don't make the same mistakes other teams do. However it's easy not to make mistakes when you're pushing only 90% while the other teams are pushing 101%.

Thoughts?

[jgonzalesm6]

Mercedes had a jump start on this turbo hybrid era way before anyone else. Yeah, sure, Renault wanted it too......but they fell way behind.

The token system garaunteed Mercedes dominance from 2014 to 2016.....and into 2017 as well. Everyone else was way behind.

It's 2020 now and another freeze on the engines for 2 years. Ferrari's engine has been regulated even more since the 2019 mid-season. Ferrari has dropped in horsepower.

Mercedes does'nt rest. They have been advancing in every department in every race for every year. They are a financial, technological, and personnel juggernaut in F1.

No matter how "bad" the rest of the field is......Mercedes still persists.

[paolo lalli]

That is the corruption part 2 years head start given to them from some insider in the fia.Simple as that they were developing secretly behind every bodies back.Give Ferrari or red bull 2 years start and lets see where mercedes would be yes corruption ways can be presented in many forms.Ferrari now aiming for 2 years to climb to the top again yes that magical 2 year margin.Ferrari have virtually scraped the next two years why.? May be the fia can answer that secret question.Mercedes are not as good as they think they have had the lions share of information forthcoming for years.This needs an answer no one can be so dominant with out the inside line.FIA =Fools in AUTOMOBILES.

[aroutis]

Mercedes had a jump start on this turbo hybrid era way before anyone else. Yeah, sure, Renault wanted it too......but they fell way behind.

The token system garaunteed Mercedes dominance from 2014 to 2016.....and into 2017 as well. Everyone else was way behind.

It's 2020 now and another freeze on the engines for 2 years. Ferrari's engine has been regulated even more since the 2019 mid-season. Ferrari has dropped in horsepower.

Mercedes does'nt rest. They have been advancing in every department in every race for every year. They are a financial, technological, and personnel juggernaut in F1.

No matter how "bad" the rest of the field is......Mercedes still persists.And what about rbr ? Why are they that behind ?
This is not just about ferrari , it is about renault and Honda as well.

I don't think it is all about perseverance but also about what ferrari was accused of as well. And because of this whole mess, noone is accusing them because simply fia already showed that they cannot prove if a team can cheat or not so what is the point?
So right now mercedes is doing it bluntly.

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[jgonzalesm6]

And what about rbr ? Why are they that behind ?
This is not just about ferrari , it is about renault and Honda as well.

I don't think it is all about perseverance but also about what ferrari was accused of as well. And because of this whole mess, noone is accusing them because simply fia already showed that they cannot prove if a team can cheat or not so what is the point?
So right now mercedes is doing it bluntly.

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Maybe it's the pandemic for RBR, Honda, Ferrari, and Renault.

I don't think we've seen Mercedes true hand. I don't think we will ever will.

[paolo lalli]

Put 3 chains in another car and lets see how good he really is.Lewis has not had a proper examination or test.All his answers to the questions he has provided on a sheet.3 chains will never leave mercedes the fear of loosing would crusify him he can't handle it.So stay safe 3 chains and protect your hollow provided victories and titles.

[distortion]

FIA showed up and scrutinized our floor. Flexible they said.

FIA showed up with extra sensors and scrutinized our battery. TD’s followed.

FIA showed up and scrutinized us for oil burning.

FIA added an extra fuel flow sensor.

FIA dropped a folder full of TD’s on internal engine bits and bobs.

My conclusion... Mercedes has been stealing data from opponents and either incorporating it, or using it cry to the FIA. I’ll call it their “Black Budget.” BTW it’s pretty normal in the business world.

[jgonzalesm6]

Put 3 chains in another car and lets see how good he really is.Lewis has not had a proper examination or test.All his answers to the questions he has provided on a sheet.3 chains will never leave mercedes the fear of loosing would crusify him he can't handle it.So stay safe 3 chains and protect your hollow provided victories and titles.

I think the whole grid would not mind trading places with Lewis.

[paolo lalli]

Mercedes can't even make a decent super car.Greece is unvailing one next year.Totally made in Greece and it's a beauty Geneva motor show.Goggle Greek super car.Why no great super car easy no fia corruption or input or cheat sheets provided here.Mercedes my cullo.

[Timpolidori]

In the world of motorsports, anytime a team dominates, speculation arises that said team could be cheating. My thoughts in this thread are simply speculation and assumption, as obviously to date Mercedes has not been caught cheating. What I do know about how brutally and unbelievably corrupt the world is, it would be naive to think that there can't be corruption in Formula 1 and/or the FIA. Throughout F1 history there have been examples of strange decisions or rulings that seemed to benefit the dominant team of that era. A tire change in 2013 that made the Red Bull unbeatable, another tire change in 2018 because specifically Mercedes were blistering their tires. Of course the witch hunt against Ferrari's engine in late 2019. What we do know, is Mercedes has held a dominance over the entire hybrid era, with the only competition coming from Ferrari whilst they were found to be cheating.

Average Laptimes in Qualifying:
2014 - Mercedes was 0.688s faster than Williams-Mercedes who was the next best team, 1.099s faster than Ferrari
2015 - 0.630s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2016 - 0.734s faster (RBR 2nd best)
2017 - 0.165s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2018 - 0.110s faster (Ferrari 2nd best)
2019 - 0.111s faster (Ferrari 2nd best), 0.317s faster before Ferrari's updates in Belgium.

2017-2019 look to be good competitive years. Unfortunately Ferrari's party mode was apparently not legal, and a technical analysis showed Ferrari has dropped upwards of 80 horsepower from their 2019 power unit. I am certain Ferrari didn't gain 80 horsepower after Hungary 2019, I believe they have been tricking the fuel flow since 2017. This doesn't suggest Mercedes has an 80 hp advantage in 2020, as Ferrari had a clear power advantage in 2019, perhaps upwards of 20-30 hp. Also Ferrari is showing to be the worst engine in 2020, it is reasonable to assume that Renault and Honda are down somewhere between 20 and 40 horsepower to Mercedes.

I don't question how a team like Mercedes can be monstrously dominant, it even makes sense 2014-2015. What I question is how they are able to maintain their gap over the competition year after year.

In 7 years Honda, Renault, and Ferrari can't find a legal way to close the power gap down to Mercedes?

In 7 years Red Bull and Ferrari, who have developed dominant chassis' in the past, can't close the gap to Mercedes?

In 7 years, despite having the best chassis and engine, Mercedes have found enormous gains each and every year.

Check out Mercedes' performance around Silverstone, which as we know is Lewis Hamilton's home grand prix.

2014 - 1:35.766
2015 - 1:32.248 (-3.518s)
2016 - 1:29.287 (-2.961s)
2017 - 1:26.600 (-2.687s)*aero changes
2018 - 1:25.892 (-0.708s)
2019 - 1:25.093 (-0.799s)
2020 - 1:24.303 (-0.790s)

With teams in factory lock down, how does Mercedes gain 30ish horsepower on their already dominant and impossibly efficient engine, and how do they find nearly 8 tenths with virtually no development between March and July?

It is possible Mercedes simply is that good. They don't make the same mistakes other teams do. However it's easy not to make mistakes when you're pushing only 90% while the other teams are pushing 101%.

Thoughts?I've always thought that Merc had much more in the tank from day one of hybrid and have fabricated the failures in pace and reliability to not run away with it. It's always better to be in the fight for your sponsors I guess. They have an advantage that is unknown to all other engine supplier's in my opinion

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[SS454]

I think most have seen special treatment given to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA, however I admit I am biased in my views. But it is feasible to think the FIA protects their golden boy and even allows certain rules to be bent in their favor, if it ensures they get the result they want. To suggest that everyone in the FIA or the stewards in F1 are unbiased to all drivers would be ignorant. I have always watched the British broadcasting in F1, and since Hamilton got into F1 there has been enormous bias towards him. It's natural to expect a given broadcast is going to favor the the driver of the same country. Even though the FIA is based out of France, there is heavy English monopoly in Formula 1 overall and I am sure there some that want to see Lewis Hamilton, a British driver, statistically become the greatest driver.

Also when it comes to corruption, the behind the scenes money that gets thrown around is probably so much that it'd make us regular people puke. I have dozens of examples of this type of corruption just in my own tiny world. A team like Mercedes with it's massive budget could easily be paying off people to look the other way.

I think most would agree that the Mercedes power unit has been the best since 2014, with the exception of the better part of 2019 where Ferrari had an advantage illegally. But how much can one really extract from the power units with such tight restrictions? There is minimum weights set in place throughout the engine, no exotic metals are allowed, and most importantly fuel flow limits. Efficiency is key and I think Mercedes has been the best without a doubt, but at the end of the day there is still only so much fuel one can burn to make power. Also there is supposed to be a maximum of 160 horsepower from the batteries. Does Mercedes electric motor push out 200 hp? As I mentioned, I can understand how Mercedes could have an advantage over other engine builders, but rumors of upwards of 100 hp in 2014? Renault, Honda, Ferrari, they have smart guys working there. Not just backyard mechanics. I would think someone could have found how to extract similar power. But lets say Mercedes made 925 horsepower, and Renault was making 875. By the time Renault was making 925 horsepower, Mercedes was making 975-1000.

When you have such a power advantage, you can afford to build a less efficient chassis. One that makes dirty downforce. Mercedes can hit 325 kph with a lot more downforce than their competitors. Red Bull there or there abouts had the most efficient chassis, but often had to trim off the downforce to keep up with the Mercedes on the straights.

[ferras]

Keep in mind that FIA also banned several Mercedes technologies during this period. But i think Mercedes have something in their suspension. Something with hydraulic. A few seasons ago they had a lot of problems with that and before the second part of the 2018 season they made some changes. After that, they became completely unbeatable.

[ferras]

I think most have seen special treatment given to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA, however I admit I am biased in my views. But it is feasible to think the FIA protects their golden boy and even allows certain rules to be bent in their favor, if it ensures they get the result they want. To suggest that everyone in the FIA or the stewards in F1 are unbiased to all drivers would be ignorant. I have always watched the British broadcasting in F1, and since Hamilton got into F1 there has been enormous bias towards him. It's natural to expect a given broadcast is going to favor the the driver of the same country. Even though the FIA is based out of France, there is heavy English monopoly in Formula 1 overall and I am sure there some that want to see Lewis Hamilton, a British driver, statistically become the greatest driver.

Also when it comes to corruption, the behind the scenes money that gets thrown around is probably so much that it'd make us regular people puke. I have dozens of examples of this type of corruption just in my own tiny world. A team like Mercedes with it's massive budget could easily be paying off people to look the other way.

I think most would agree that the Mercedes power unit has been the best since 2014, with the exception of the better part of 2019 where Ferrari had an advantage illegally. But how much can one really extract from the power units with such tight restrictions? There is minimum weights set in place throughout the engine, no exotic metals are allowed, and most importantly fuel flow limits. Efficiency is key and I think Mercedes has been the best without a doubt, but at the end of the day there is still only so much fuel one can burn to make power. Also there is supposed to be a maximum of 160 horsepower from the batteries. Does Mercedes electric motor push out 200 hp? As I mentioned, I can understand how Mercedes could have an advantage over other engine builders, but rumors of upwards of 100 hp in 2014? Renault, Honda, Ferrari, they have smart guys working there. Not just backyard mechanics. I would think someone could have found how to extract similar power. But lets say Mercedes made 925 horsepower, and Renault was making 875. By the time Renault was making 925 horsepower, Mercedes was making 975-1000.

When you have such a power advantage, you can afford to build a less efficient chassis. One that makes dirty downforce. Mercedes can hit 325 kph with a lot more downforce than their competitors. Red Bull there or there abouts had the most efficient chassis, but often had to trim off the downforce to keep up with the Mercedes on the straights.

You are talking about PU, but what about their customers? RP looked like **** till they got a new chassis. Williams still like trash.

[JPZ]

Either way, the FIA deciding to 'punish' Ferrari for their engines, which were never proven to be illegal, is now heavily damaging an already declining sport.

[SS454]

You are talking about PU, but what about their customers? RP looked like **** till they got a new chassis. Williams still like trash.

In 2014 the Williams was the second fastest car, Racing Point not that much behind them. 2015 Williams was still strong. I certainly don't think Williams had a better chassis than Red Bull.

In 2017, Williams who were under-developing at a wild-fire alarming rate, still managed to comfortably beat all Honda, Renault, and Ferrari powered cars except for Ferrari and RBR. Force India who had no budget, were heading into bankruptcy dominated the midfield, easily coming 4th in the WCC.

In 2018, Williams had by far the worst chassis, still scored points. Force India who got bought mid season even scored a podium in Baku and was regularly in the top 10. Force India + Racing Point points would have put them in 5th, right behind Renault. Not bad for a team with no money and a team that was on the verge of being dismantled.

2019, Williams was virtually undrivable, and Racing Point had Lance Stroll. Now that RP has the entire 2019 Mercedes car, it's a legit contender for podiums with 1 overrated driver and the other who is probably regarded as the worst driver on the grid.

[ferras]

Either way, the FIA deciding to 'punish' Ferrari for their engines, which were never proven to be illegal, is now heavily damaging an already declining sport.

The engine was built using loopholes in the regulation. Like many other banned technologies: Renault mass damper, Mercedes DAS and etc. The easiest way to solve these problems is with new rules in the regulation, because it's very difficult and very expensive to prove something.

[ferras]

In 2014 the Williams was the second fastest car, Racing Point not that much behind them. 2015 Williams was still strong. I certainly don't think Williams had a better chassis than Red Bull.

In 2017, Williams who were under-developing at a wild-fire alarming rate, still managed to comfortably beat all Honda, Renault, and Ferrari powered cars except for Ferrari and RBR. Force India who had no budget, were heading into bankruptcy dominated the midfield, easily coming 4th in the WCC.

In 2018, Williams had by far the worst chassis, still scored points. Force India who got bought mid season even scored a podium in Baku and was regularly in the top 10. Force India + Racing Point points would have put them in 5th, right behind Renault. Not bad for a team with no money and a team that was on the verge of being dismantled.

2019, Williams was virtually undrivable, and Racing Point had Lance Stroll. Now that RP has the entire 2019 Mercedes car, it's a legit contender for podiums with 1 overrated driver and the other who is probably regarded as the worst driver on the grid.

In the start of the hybrid era Mercedes had the best engine, but not the chassis. Ferrari, Renault and Honda had allot of problems. Then Ferrari solved their problems with PU and started pushing Merc(2017, 2018). After that, Merc started working hard on the chassis, especially suspension.. I think that’s what helped them to keep the advantage. This is my opinion.

P.S. Keep in mind that many aero rules has been changed in this period and thats why teams like Williams stayed away from the others.

[Brembo]

Put 3 chains in another car and lets see how good he really is.Lewis has not had a proper examination or test.All his answers to the questions he has provided on a sheet.3 chains will never leave mercedes the fear of loosing would crusify him he can't handle it.So stay safe 3 chains and protect your hollow provided victories and titles.

I only wish Ferrari had given Seb a proper examination or test! Leaving the R Bull car he was blessed with did crucify him. 4 WDCs down to not even getting podiums. Lewis + his car will probably take him to 100 wins 100 poles and 10 WDCs. All that will count for years to come. GOAT until someone else gets to drive in a great team with a great car. Seb has 4 WDCs , 3 more and he would have tied the record. He wishes for sure he would have been smart enough to stay safe . Bottas is not Rubenized by Merc. He is Lewis top challenge along with Max. Meanwhile Binotto has assured the team and drivers to not worry at least until 2023 about results, they will get paid anyway. I do have faith in Charles as far as doing all he can regardless. Lewis says at least 3 more years before he even thinks of leaving the great job he has.

[paolo lalli]

Rapper boy Hamilton's neck surely can't carry another 3 years of gold chains.I thought that the G forces on the neck would be enough.

[nani_s23]

I would say it simple. Better understanding between FIA & Merc : Politics
Ferrari had an era (Schumi), which they stopped with some restrictions then RB was into limelight.
Even they had an era (Vettel), again they stopped with restrictions where Mercs got an head start.
Now it’s Mercs era (Hamilton), but the important point FIA is not imposing any restrictions, only its rivals are getting punished.

But nothing to take away Mercs are doing better job in holding their advantage.

Come 2022, I don’t know whom FIA wants to make a hero... it’s either Max or Leclerc. I feel in this way. Hope it’s the later.

[Farid757]

I would say it simple. Better understanding between FIA & Merc : Politics
Ferrari had an era (Schumi), which they stopped with some restrictions then RB was into limelight.
Even they had an era (Vettel), again they stopped with restrictions where Mercs got an head start.
Now it’s Mercs era (Hamilton), but the important point FIA is not imposing any restrictions, only its rivals are getting punished.

But nothing to take away Mercs are doing better job in holding their advantage.

Come 2022, I don’t know whom FIA wants to make a hero... it’s either Max or Leclerc. I feel in this way. Hope it’s the later.

[Farid757]

I would say it simple. Better understanding between FIA & Merc : Politics
Ferrari had an era (Schumi), which they stopped with some restrictions then RB was into limelight.
Even they had an era (Vettel), again they stopped with restrictions where Mercs got an head start.
Now it’s Mercs era (Hamilton), but the important point FIA is not imposing any restrictions, only its rivals are getting punished.

But nothing to take away Mercs are doing better job in holding their advantage.

Come 2022, I don’t know whom FIA wants to make a hero... it’s either Max or Leclerc. I feel in this way. Hope it’s the later.

[Farid757]

Less races, no crowds, does the FIA really think people are going to be glued to their TV for 1 hour 40 minutes to watch a forgone conclusion to a race, the British commentators try to make it exciting, looking at the lower teams fighting, what a load of rubbish. The golden era of F1 has gone for good. We need a new free handed new racing series to follow, and leave F1 to Mercedes, let them run the 20 cars.

[Redfive]

Lewis has had win after win and title after title handed to him on a plate. Since the first "illegal" Mercedes tyre tests that thing has been light years ahead of the rest.
I think it's common knowledge now that the FIA favour Mercedes and want them to go on and take every record in the books. That's why nothing is done to stop them (when Ferrari dominated in 2002/4 the FIA tried all sorts including new rules to slow them down, but they are more than happy for Mercedes to dominate for 7 years in a row)

and even when another team get close to them, things like tyre pressures are altered to suit Mercedes even more and their gap grows again.

What boils my blood is people who say Ham is the goat. They are blind, there are way more races now, 25pts for a win instead of 10, points for 10 places instead of 7 and the reliability is pretty much 100% now. So anyone in that car would rack up a mountain of wins. Shame he is too chicken to have a good driver in the 2nd seat.

Ham goat? not even close.

as for have they been cheating, YES! but the FIA don't care. They are also cheating with DAS this year as no other teams can use it and its banned for next year. why not ban it now? because Merc can use it.. cheating scumbags.

[nani_s23]

How can others working while Ferrari or other teams were affected by lockdown? When that’s called championship, probably this one too come under title category.

Remember Ferrari is subjected to engine freeze, while teams like RP & Mercs & RB have the option to use free tokens. Is this the championship you are talking about?

[jgonzalesm6]

Mercedes: why is super power (1022 hp) suspicious?

Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.

Milleventidue. This is only a number, but it will remain printed for a long time in the mind of those who experience the Formula 1 paddock.

Because it took the fourth GP of the season to discover the true potential of the Mercedes power unit, so far smelled, but never fully expressed, either because of fears about reliability, or because of the obvious inferiority of the competition so it was not worth taking risks unnecessary.

But at Silverstone, the home track for the Brackley team, we experienced a devastating showdown that forces Red Bull Racing to take back all the proclamations of the winter, when Helmut Marko and Max Verstappen were self-nominated candidates for the world championship . And, instead, the Dutchman, in spite of himself, will have understood that this too will be a year of lean cows, because against Mercedes there is no opponent who takes.

Ola Kallenius, president of the Daimler Group, wanted a test of superiority and for the first time in the management of the "Strat 2" map, the qualifying one, the Brackley engines pushed the turbo overboost: the power data collected with the sound level measurements were simply impressive!

The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.

If Mercedes wanted to give a signal, it sent it clear and strong: we are talking about twenty more horses than those seen earlier this year. No wonder: the W11 had finished the GP dominated in Austria with 11 kilos of petrol in the tank, a sign that there would be "beer" to spend. And so it was in Silverstone.

Only the heat could have mitigated the overflowing superiority of the black arrows, fearing the trouble of lubricating Brixworth's engine, but Andy Cowell's latest masterpiece also stopped smoking ...

There is talk of a "miraculous" petrol homologated before Spielberg and of a different hybrid strategy: the two combined things give a surprising "mix". All the other engines have lost power compared to the last one, not Mercedes which, in fact, has made an important step forward which also benefits the customer teams (Racing Point and Williams).

The FIA ​​in telemetry has not seen anything unusual, even if now it is up to Mercedes to feel the "breeze" of those who claim that it is impossible to get over a thousand horses without acting in the gray areas of the regulation in spite of the Technical Directives issued by Nicholas Tombazis. But there are those who argue that false signals can be sent to the flow meter to prevent it from reading the correct data, firing more fuel than allowed into the combustion chamber.

Ferrari has opened a road and there are those who know how to drive it without incurring evident infractions. It is clear that the gauntlet launched by Mercedes is also to the International Federation, but it particularly affects Mattia Binotto who is grappling with a "deflated" engine after the secret agreement with the FIA ​​in which the wings to 065/2.

The Cavallino unit pays 42 horses from the Mercedes unit, while the Honda is chasing the Stella with a gap of just 28 horses. Renault is no longer the Cinderella of the Manufacturers: it is 37 horsepower with the 6 cylinder that has not changed much since 2019.

The black shirt was worn by Enrico Gualtieri, chief engineer of the Scuderia: without the "devilries" that made the Reds impregnable on the straight, the Maranello engine proved inadequate for F1 2020. During the lockdown period there was no time to introduce new solutions on the engine that has been approved, but by 2021 the music should change.

One fact is certain: 42 horses can be worth at most four tenths of a second on the lap, but not the second and passes seen in qualifying at Silverstone, a sign that the troubles of the SF1000 arise from the power unit, but involve the whole car ...

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-tecnica-mercedes-perche-la-super-potenza-1022-cv-e-sospetta/4848120/&prev=search&pto=aue

[SS454]

Lewis has had win after win and title after title handed to him on a plate. Since the first "illegal" Mercedes tyre tests that thing has been light years ahead of the rest.
I think it's common knowledge now that the FIA favour Mercedes and want them to go on and take every record in the books. That's why nothing is done to stop them (when Ferrari dominated in 2002/4 the FIA tried all sorts including new rules to slow them down, but they are more than happy for Mercedes to dominate for 7 years in a row)

and even when another team get close to them, things like tyre pressures are altered to suit Mercedes even more and their gap grows again.

What boils my blood is people who say Ham is the goat. They are blind, there are way more races now, 25pts for a win instead of 10, points for 10 places instead of 7 and the reliability is pretty much 100% now. So anyone in that car would rack up a mountain of wins. Shame he is too chicken to have a good driver in the 2nd seat.

Ham goat? not even close.

as for have they been cheating, YES! but the FIA don't care. They are also cheating with DAS this year as no other teams can use it and its banned for next year. why not ban it now? because Merc can use it.. cheating scumbags.

The FIA did everything they could to stop Ferrari

After 01 and 02 dominance, they change the points structure, and introduce 1 lap qualifying with race fuel to shake things up. Successful, but Ferrari still wins in 03

2004 they try to reduce downforce by allowing only 2 element rear wings. Not a big deal, but Ferrari ends up dominating.

2005, they finally succeed by introducing 1 tires for the entire race, which of course was going to benefit Michelin as they had 7 teams vs 3. The 3 Bridgestone teams were Ferrari and backmarkers Minardi and Jordan. It was a completely unfair advantage and it finally dethroned Ferrari. Such a shame.

I agree with you, any time a team gets close to Mercedes they find a way to help Mercedes or hurt the team getting close. DAS could be deemed illegal on several accounts, but instead, according to James Allison, the FIA actually told Mercedes how to do it to be considered "legal".

[Brembo]

No one but Lewis had anything to do with this latest win. It wasn't the car that won it this time for sure. Not too many drivers could bring home a win on 3 wheels! Ferrari gets a podium !!!

[stefa]

No one but Lewis had anything to do with this latest win. It wasn't the car that won it this time for sure. Not too many drivers could bring home a win on 3 wheels! Ferrari gets a podium !!!

Not to exaggerate, and give superhuman powers to him!? He had like 50 second advantage over MV, and lest than a half a lap!

[gino t]

Let's hope Andy Cowell’s departure from Mercedes is significant. I'm sure it won't happen but I would love to see him in red. He'd be a great technical director. Somebody who know how to use all the loopholes and regulations.

[paolo lalli]

When the FIA punished Ferrari they punished formula1.

[tifosi1993]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

[stefa]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.

As I was witness of Ferrari doing in F1 since early 80's, and also successful period with Michael, I can tell you that only in 2004 Ferrari was so dominant over the others, but in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003 it was real battle with McLaren, BMW,... And on top of it Ferrari DID NOT had two years head start on POWER UNIT, as it is called nowadays, over others!

[Greig]

2002 Michael finished no lower than 3rd and won the title in record time, there was no battle :-)

[stefa]

2002 Michael finished no lower than 3rd and won the title in record time, there was no battle :-)

That is still 2 out of 5. And how many LH won out of what?

[FerrariF60]

That is still 2 out of 5. And how many LH won out of what?

Exactly, Lewis has had absolutely NO competition in the latest years....only comp he had was Nico 14-16....that’s it
The new butler, i mean teammate is only there to protect him/ wing man....so he gets the WDC at the end of the year IF Merc were to have some real competition like they had in 18 and 19....now he’s got 2 yeasy WDCs coming his way thanks to the MIA forcing us to redesign our engine...which is now a donkey....who knows when we’ll get our Stallion back

[Submanf1]

Exactly, Lewis has had absolutely NO competition in the latest years....only comp he had was Nico 14-16....that’s it
The new butler, i mean teammate is only there to protect him/ wing man....so he gets the WDC at the end of the year IF Merc were to have some real competition like they had in 18 and 19....now he’s got 2 yeasy WDCs coming his way thanks to the MIA forcing us to redesign our engine...which is now a donkey....who knows when we’ll get our Stallion back

Before the hybrid era Hamilton averaged about 3 wins a season. Sometimes he had an equal best car IMHO, like 2007, 2008, and 2012 and sometimes he had an average car like 2009 and 2013. But he always had to battle for wins against other teams. Since the hybrid era it’s realistically been in an internal battle against his team mate only which he has won apart from against Rosberg in 2016.

However, his average wins a year have gone from around 3 to almost 11. That shows the clear dominance of Mercedes in this era. Even Vettel with Red Bull only averaged around 8 wins a year from 2009-2013.

[paolo lalli]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

[jgonzalesm6]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.


Agreed.

The only difference regarding the engines was in 2000s there was unlimited testing.....so pretty fair for everyone back then....plus the V10 engine layout was pretty fair as well.

All the way up to 2013 in the V8 w/KERS era as well.

This turbo hybrid era is littered with tokens and engine freezes.....not to mention Mercedes had a jump on this turbo hybrid era....pretty much garaunteeing Mercedes dominance.

This turbo hybrid era in F1 is a completely different animal. It really caught Ferrari and Renault by surprise...being down 100hp or more from the get go. That's mega in F1.

[Silent Bob]

Everything comes full circle. Back in the days of Ferrari domination, the FIA was used to call Ferrari International Assistant and many thought Ferrari were cheating and the FIA was helping them to win everything. Now some of us are doing the exact same thing, only the other way around.

Better team will always win and dominate, Ferrari of 2000's was miles ahead of everybody, just like the current Mercedes is. For Ferrari to topple Mercedes, they need to be better at everything. So you guys go right ahead with your cheating accusations and conspiracy theories, but you'll be only wasting your valuable time.



However the fact that Merc has done so well might be also because they've had some help. Can't argue the fact this formula was taylor made for them. Can't argue the fact the token system pretty much handed them 2-3 championships.
I'd really like it to be known if the merc IC and battery system has as many sensors on it as ferrari's does. Overall I think what gets to most of us is the seemingly passive atttitude the FIA has towards this dominance and how wolfe seems to be able to dictate how things happen. Even Marko is musing how the FIA doesn't seem bothered about Mercs dominance when they were very quick to hamper Ferrari and Red Bull.

[wisepie]

Binotto says there are still possibilities to improve the SF1000, but without an engine upgrade that isn't going to help any of the Ferrari-powered teams. I am actually surprised that someone like Ross Brawn hasn't admitted that 3 teams out of 10 are seriously compromised by this state of affairs, in the interest of the sport something could and should be done. I don't care how many WDCs HAM may eventually achieve, he has had little competition in the hybrid era, and most of that came from Seb/Charles and Ferrari, apart from Rosberg's championship year.:-E

[SS454]

Ferrari won in 2000, but was not dominant. Was one of the most competitive season's against McLaren

Ferrari dominated 2001 with a car that was about 0.4 seconds faster than McLaren and Williams in Qualifying, and about 0.260 faster in the Race.

Ferrari dominated 2002 with a car that was 0.236s faster than Williams in Qualifying, but was 0.75 seconds faster in the race. A lot of that swing comes from Michelin being a great qualifying tire, but couldn't maintain it's grip over the run.

Ferrari had 1 year of a massively dominant car, and the rules were changed for 2003.

In 2004 Ferrari once again had a massively dominant car, but couldn't clean sweep poles because of the rule to qualify with fuel. They still held a 0.4s advantage in Qual, and 0.785s advantage in the race.

From 2002 to 2004, Ferrari kept going towards shorter stints with softer tires, 2005 rule changes ruined that with a huge advantage going to the 7 big Michelin teams.

Good teams will always come to the front, just as with the salary cap, I expect Mercedes still to be the team to beat as they have the best team by far. But with engine freezes, token system, an early development to the extremely complex Hybrid PU's. Formula 1/FIA has protected the dominance of Mercedes.

If Formula 1/FIA is corrupt, I think it's reasonable to assume Ferrari did have some help along the way. Bernie Echellstone sure praised Schumacher openly. The mass damper being banned on Renault, that was sure strange being banned as a moveable aerodynamic device. Ferrari was accused of a flexable floor on the F2004, but was never proven. Ross Brawn and Jean Todt apparently had connections within the Formula 1/FIA crowd, given their current roles.

Regardless of that, Ferrari was able to battle through many changes designed to shake up the results in F1 and specifically prevent domination. Other teams had open testing, and much more freedom to design and innovate. Perhaps Ferrari's biggest advantage was their relationship with Bridgestone.

Today's F1 the engine is restricted in fuel flow, the electric motor can only produce up to 160 horsepower, can only deliver so much electric energy per lap, there are minimum weights over the overall engine, as well as internally.

Today's gearboxes are pre selected for gearing, so big budget teams can't change gears any way they want for every season for every grand prix.

Today's tires are a single manufacturer, with every team given the same 3 different compounds.

There are tighter restrictions in aerodynamics, most of the freedom is in the bargeboard area.

Today's rules should have made a tighter field. A team can easily still dominate with a 3 tenths advantage when they are as good as Mercedes is, but when we are talking 0.75-1 second a lap, it's not even the same league anymore. If Mercedes wasn't around during the hybrid era, it would have been extremely exciting.

[evo_spook]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

:lol Hard to take you seriously

[tifosi1993]

However the fact that Merc has done so well might be also because they've had some help. Can't argue the fact this formula was taylor made for them. Can't argue the fact the token system pretty much handed them 2-3 championships.
I'd really like it to be known if the merc IC and battery system has as many sensors on it as ferrari's does. Overall I think what gets to most of us is the seemingly passive atttitude the FIA has towards this dominance and how wolfe seems to be able to dictate how things happen. Even Marko is musing how the FIA doesn't seem bothered about Mercs dominance when they were very quick to hamper Ferrari and Red Bull.

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

And I don't care about Marko or his opinions. He says lot of things, but they hardly worth any value. I can't blame Mercedes for doing their job properly, they also had the best engine in the previous V8 era, so there's nothing strange about Mercedes PU being the current best. It's up to Ferrari and rest to do their job properly, rather than wasting millions of money and valuable resources every year.

[paolo lalli]

All of f1 is a joke a complete circus taking it in a serious stride is of non benefits.To many clowns to many jugglers and magicians so why bother.I loved the circus as a child but never took it seriously great for a laugh.Just like the current state of f1.There are to many actors in the f1 ring top.Ring leaders mercedes centre stage totto wolf main acts Lewis and bottas majority ticket holders the fia.The rest of the tickets held by try heads and no hoppers enjoy the show the mercedes show ladies and gentleman.Oh the food and novelty stands are owned by todd and Brawn.yes a circus indeed.

[The Hajj]

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

I agree with your premise but is it realistic to believe Ferrari could have stopped the changes, that in my opinion, have ruined Formula 1? I recall many people on this forum were in full support of hybrid engines, testing limitations, budget limitations, refueling bans, tire controls, etc. There were a few members, myself included, who felt the shift towards a "more equal" Utopian version of Formula 1 racing would lead to the eventual ruination of the sport, but there simply was not enough resistance by the teams, corporate sponsors, and the money folks to stem the tide. In my mind, Ferrari only had two options; Shut up and play by the new King's rules, or pack your toys and go home.

[alfaromeo]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. :-)They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

[330 p4]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. :-)They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

Very plausible, engine changes that had to be made were probably finalised late 2019 early 2020. A base engine was produced with development to get a proper version in during the season at some point (albeit too late and after much pain) but COV19 happened, engine fixed for the season. I bet Ferrari already have a spec 2 engine that would make a big difference but it cannot be brought in (cost savings....how...they have spent money on it and will never race). By the time 2021 starts they may well have progressed through 3 or 4 different specs that never raced. As engines are fixed for all (bet Merc can upgrade their engine) good to see if any gap can be closed via chassis development as there is likely a huge wedge of extra performance we will never see from engine developments stuck on the test bench never to see the light of day.

[jgonzalesm6]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. :-)They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

I'll have to see it first before I believe it.

[paolo lalli]

May be that's why the rival teams wanted to know Ferrari secrets they are probably on the 2021 engine and Ferrari might just have the jump start on there rivals.

[Smintlemon]

A current article from the AmuS.It is unbelievable with which criminal energy Mercedes and FIA lie and cheat here.Here is the Excerpt:Brake vents on the tableThe verdict in the brake ventilation dispute between Racing Point and Renault is expected this week. As has become known, Racing Point had the brake covers of the 2019 Mercedes as a template in the house. And the FIA ​​knew about it.Formula 1 is eagerly awaiting the verdict of the stewards in the Renault case against Racing Point. Renault had protested the brake vents on the two Racing Point RP20s in the last three races. According to Renault, the said components were copied with unauthorized outside help.

[Brembo]

Button could beat Lewis comfotably and that drove him nuts.Nico could match him, since that period no body has challenged.Lewis must remember it's not black power that powers him it's mercedes power.That strait arm and clenched fist is annoying he should be more humble and let his black racism opinions rest.Talent comes in all colours and fields and not just f1.

Button comfortably did beat Lewis for sure! One WDC in 17 yrs. in F-1. Nico also could match Lewis , 1 WDC in 10 yrs. Lewis in 12 yrs. :rotfl oh well! It's the car!! Like you so well said, talent comes in all colors.

[Silent Bob]

Every decisions in F1 are being taken unanimously. The current token system and it's implementation wouldn't be possible without Ferrari's approval. Maybe, rather than blaming others, we should blame Ferrari's shortsightedness. After the fiasco and FIA-Ferrari drama, our engine got hit hard, and Ferrari should've prepared for this outcome. But they didn't, and instead of saying no, they agreed with other engine manufacturers and the FIA and decided to implement the token system. I can't blame others for our own incompetence.

And I don't care about Marko or his opinions. He says lot of things, but they hardly worth any value. I can't blame Mercedes for doing their job properly, they also had the best engine in the previous V8 era, so there's nothing strange about Mercedes PU being the current best. It's up to Ferrari and rest to do their job properly, rather than wasting millions of money and valuable resources every year.

Just because decisions are made unanimously doesn't mean all cars or teams are treated equally. If Marko is questioning how Merc could update their engine through a lockdown, (Ferrari questioned it as well), then why isn't it being investigated? If decisions are made because a team is threatening to withdraw from the sport and it would leave the sport in disarray, then teams still might agree to terms that aren't favorable. or if you believe that teams are on a pretty equal footing you might agree to lock in rules... until one team springs a surprise.
You may not care what Marko says, but doesn't mean what he says isn't sometimes valid. So you can disregard him but I bet he knows a bit about what's going on.

[tifosi1993]

Just because decisions are made unanimously doesn't mean all cars or teams are treated equally. If Marko is questioning how Merc could update their engine through a lockdown, (Ferrari questioned it as well), then why isn't it being investigated? If decisions are made because a team is threatening to withdraw from the sport and it would leave the sport in disarray, then teams still might agree to terms that aren't favorable. or if you believe that teams are on a pretty equal footing you might agree to lock in rules... until one team springs a surprise.
You may not care what Marko says, but doesn't mean what he says isn't sometimes valid. So you can disregard him but I bet he knows a bit about what's going on.

The only thing Marko is good at is destroying a young drivers career. And Marko has been saying lots of things, like how they had the best winter of all and how they gonna challenge Mercedes....as I said whatever Marko says hardly worth any value. But if his words make you happy and give you conviction of Mercedes being cheats, then whatever. I'm not here to change peoples mind.

And as I've said before, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that Ferrari is spending millions of millions of money every year while knowing pretty well that they are getting ****** by the FIA and Mercedes. Words are cheap. Show us the evidence of FIA favoring Mercedes and vice versa, and it has to be absolute proof. But just like the flat earther can't provide the evidence of earth being flat, you can't either. It's nothing but bitter rants.

[SS454]

The only thing Marko is good at is destroying a young drivers career. And Marko has been saying lots of things, like how they had the best winter of all and how they gonna challenge Mercedes....as I said whatever Marko says hardly worth any value. But if his words make you happy and give you conviction of Mercedes being cheats, then whatever. I'm not here to change peoples mind.

And as I've said before, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that Ferrari is spending millions of millions of money every year while knowing pretty well that they are getting ****** by the FIA and Mercedes. Words are cheap. Show us the evidence of FIA favoring Mercedes and vice versa, and it has to be absolute proof. But just like the flat earther can't provide the evidence of earth being flat, you can't either. It's nothing but bitter rants.

Did this happen or not?

https://f1i.com/news/299667-pirelli-caters-mercedes-blistering-tyre-demands.html

What about the FIA telling Mercedes how to make DAS legal, despite it being a moveable aerodynamic device and goes against parcferme regulations?

What about 2019 Canadian GP. Vettel gets win robbed of him, and Hamilton does the same thing in 2016 and gets no penalty?
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/why-hamilton-didnt-get-a-penalty-in-monaco-but-vettel-did-in-canada/

[Ferrari312T4]

I think if Ferrari exploited a grey area in the engine, and if Ferrari pointed out more grey areas within the engine which they couldn't get to due to the token system, then the FIA should have investigated all, Merc, Renault and Honda. I am not sure, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't it so that the FIA can only investigate when a protest has been filed or evidence has been provided. Unless someone knows if Merc is doing this and starts chatting. We did something that made it go like a rocket on the straights. It could be that Merc has something that's better hidden. But the FIA can't do anything about it. So better freeze further development on the engine they thought. Because either way a clipped Ferrari and 'honest'Honda and Renault are not going to compete. Why did Ferrari offer them to help the FIA to smarten up on grey areas within engines? It's Ferrari who probably said, Ok we did something you ruled against but we suspect others have discovered grey areas as well. It's Ferrari who could have said, if you don't want this happening, you should invest in education and knowledge about possible ways to exploit those areas. Know how to detect it even before teams discover it. But it might be that Mercedes has been honest..but I doubt it.

[458 Italia]

I think if Ferrari exploited a grey area in the engine, and if Ferrari pointed out more grey areas within the engine which they couldn't get to due to the token system, then the FIA should have investigated all, Merc, Renault and Honda. I am not sure, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't it so that the FIA can only investigate when a protest has been filed or evidence has been provided. Unless someone knows if Merc is doing this and starts chatting. We did something that made it go like a rocket on the straights. It could be that Merc has something that's better hidden. But the FIA can't do anything about it. So better freeze further development on the engine they thought. Because either way a clipped Ferrari and 'honest'Honda and Renault are not going to compete. Why did Ferrari offer them to help the FIA to smarten up on grey areas within engines? It's Ferrari who probably said, Ok we did something you ruled against but we suspect others have discovered grey areas as well. It's Ferrari who could have said, if you don't want this happening, you should invest in education and knowledge about possible ways to exploit those areas. Know how to detect it even before teams discover it. But it might be that Mercedes has been honest..but I doubt it.

I think the main "problem" was the fact Ferrari were able to stay in front even when merc had (the still ridiculous IMO) DRS enabled. I guess if there wasn't a "formal protest" wolf and probably the likes of horner bent the FIA's ear and got them to investigate.

[tifosi1993]

Did this happen or not?

https://f1i.com/news/299667-pirelli-caters-mercedes-blistering-tyre-demands.html

Vettel also agreed with the tyre change, a simple internet search from your part would've been enough. But it doesn't fit your narrative, so that's why you didn't post his comments.


What about the FIA telling Mercedes how to make DAS legal, despite it being a moveable aerodynamic device and goes against parcferme regulations?

LOL, "moveable aerodynamic device". DAS is mostly used for influencing the camber, or should I say, it changes the front wheel alignment. It's not changing the aero load.


What about 2019 Canadian GP. Vettel gets win robbed of him, and Hamilton does the same thing in 2016 and gets no penalty?
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/why-hamilton-didnt-get-a-penalty-in-monaco-but-vettel-did-in-canada/

And? Joining the track like a madman will cost you, there was nothing wrong with that penalty. Vettel also did the same in Monza, joining the track like an utter tool and putting other drivers under dangerous situation.

Or maybe the FIA has some kind of remote control device, that forced Vettel to go offtrack! :lol

Because Vettel seems to always go offtrack, or spins, or chases when he battles with Hamilton.

[SS454]

Vettel agreeing after the change doesn't change the fact that it was Mercedes that demanded it and got what they wanted. So it fits the facts just fine.

Changing of the alignment has a small effect on ride height. Red Bull even sited it. But you didn't ignore that it directly changes the car's mechanical setup during the race which is against parcferme rules.

Joining the track like a mad man? What was he supposed to do, stop on the grass? He joined as clean as he good, and barely impeded Hamilton. A thousand times a car has rejoined the track and another car had to adjust his line, lift off the throttle or brake... and penalties aren't regularly given. His rejoin at Monza was far far different as he went from a complete stop and joined the track at a very slow speed virtually 90 degrees to oncoming traffic.

So far you have kept saying Vettel sucks and Ferrari to any discussion of about possible cheating or favoritism. Is it your position to suggest that only Ferrari or EVERYONE in F1 are stupid, make plenty of mistakes, and just are incapable of being inventive of new designs except for the people that work at Mercedes?

[tifosi1993]

There was no "demand", there was a request and after going through thousands of data, Pirelli also reached the same conclusion. And guess what, Vettel agreed and was happy with decision, according to him it would have been worse, hand't Pirelli changed the tyre constructions. And it didn't affect Ferrari one bit. So yeah, doesn't fit your narrative.

And? ride height changes all the time, nothing stays static in a moving object, especially something as fast as a F1 car. And define the mechanical setup, and do tell me, what part of the mechanical setup does the DAS influence. And since Red Bull and Markos words mean so much to you, maybe you should contact them, since you've got extensive knowledge regarding the DAS, more than anyone in F1 community it seems.

Again, may you should watch the Canadian GP again and refresh your memory a bit. He did joined the track on dangerous manner, there was no two ways about it. Just like he did in Monza, just because you don't/can't accept, it doesn't matter one bit. He got the penalty. And guess what, there was no appeal from Ferrari regarding Vettel's penalty (https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/13/ferrari-withdraw-vettel-penalty-appeal/).

You clearly like Vettel and Red Bull, probably more than Ferrari it seems. So why don't take your false crusade elsewhere. Some extremely vocal but loud minorities accused Ferrari of cheating back in 2000's, which was nothing but laughable. It's the same with your posts, nothing but angry rants and laughable conspiracy theories, and full of bitterness.

[tifosi1993]

Ferrari have on the test bench new 2021 engine without Andy Covell. :-)They work very hard for this 2021 engine and I am optimist it can be better than Mercedes v6 engine 2020.

I had no problem with Ferrari's engine "tricks", I hope they do it again with next years engine as well, and hopefully this time it will produce more HP than ever before. Ferrari had the best PU's in both 2018 and 2019, it's time to reclaim that position again, by any means necessary.

[SS454]

thousands of data? Where's your proof? Can you show me dialogue from other teams that complained about the tires? Again what does Vettel agreeing afterwards have to do with Pirelli making a tire change because Mercedes specifically had problems? Does Vettel have the last say?

Didn't affect Ferrari one bit? So you're saying that the most influential part of any car (the tires) being altered had no affect on Ferrari's car? wow.

Before trying to run on about about a moving object changes, we both know I am referring to the static ride height changes when the alignment gets altered. I can be dumb as rocks if it makes you happy, but this was stated by people working in Formula 1. Mechanical setup being the toe alignment, which has an affect on caster and camber as well. This is locked into the setup as per parc ferme rules. However DAS clearly allows a driver to manually change these settings during the race.

I don't need to watch the Canadian GP. If you think that rejoin was on the same level as Monza, you clearly are stuck in your own distorted reality that there is no point to discuss with you further. I do remember Vettel was the very first guy to "appeal" the decision when he swapped his 2nd place board with Lewis'. Pretty obviously he didn't agree with the ruling.

I like Vettel and Red Bull? Again, you're own distorted reality.

Why do you bother posting in this thread? It's been stated already that Mercedes have not been proven guilty of anything, but there is substance enough for people to discuss possibilities that they might think. No harm in a discussion right? If you believe Mercedes, and all teams are squeaky clean and don't ever "cheat" or that corruption doesn't exist in high levels of sports, then you need to get out of your mom's basement and look at the real world. I'll break the first bit of bad news to you..... there is no Tooth Ferry. Good luck.

[JPZ]

I had no problem with Ferrari's engine "tricks", I hope they do it again with next years engine as well, and hopefully this time it will produce more HP than ever before. Ferrari had the best PU's in both 2018 and 2019, it's time to reclaim that position again, by any means necessary.

Hopefully that is their plan. To not disclose the nature of the methods or technology they are using and continue to use it in future engines.

If using the 2019 engine instead of basically a 2017 engine they would have been able to challenge Mercedes this year. Strange how Mercedes can get away with a retractable steering column which will be illegal next year but Ferrari has to abandon their engine for one several years old.

Could be they agreed to use the older so they would not have to disclose the technology and believe they will still be able to use it.

[tifosi1993]

Proof? F1 is a data centric sport. But of course, ******* like you only want to look for conspiracies and what not. Your tiny brain can't process anything else. So again, show the world your conclusive proofs of Mercedes being cheats. Put up or shut up.

And really, have you been hibernating or something. I know Canada is cold, but come on. Ferrari's performance remained the same after that "tiny" construction changes, as evident by Vettel winning the Canadian GP. I guess you have missed your countries own GP, since you were busy hibernating.

And I'm yet to see any official protest regarding the DAS. Which tells me, other teams, apart from your beloved Red Bull that is, have no problem with the DAS. And more importantly, I have yet see to any protest from Ferrari. And Ferrari previously considered using the DAS, but they didn't because they "didn’t clarify with the FIA at the time". But I'm sure you would have accused Ferrari of being cheats as well, just like your beloved Red Bull and Marko would.

And of course you're not going to watch, and why would you anyway. To you, Vettel's silly antics after the race is more important than any official protest from Ferrari. But Vettel fanboys are only going to focus on Vettel, that's hardly surprising. Again, there was no protest from Ferrari regarding Vettel's penalty.

As I've said before, bitter and lazy haters accused Ferrari of being cheats in the past. And that same bitter and lazy fools doing the same with Mercedes now. And please, don't lecture me about the 'real world', you conspiracy nutjob. Stop obsessing about Mercedes, Marko, Vettel, Moms and basements and focus on the reality. Best teams will always win. End of discussion.

[tifosi1993]

Hopefully that is their plan. To not disclose the nature of the methods or technology they are using and continue to use it in future engines.

If using the 2019 engine instead of basically a 2017 engine they would have been able to challenge Mercedes this year. Strange how Mercedes can get away with a retractable steering column which will be illegal next year but Ferrari has to abandon their engine for one several years old.

Could be they agreed to use the older so they would not have to disclose the technology and believe they will still be able to use it.

As I said, "any means necessary". F1 isn't about winning the popularity or moral contest, Ferrari needs to think outside the box to gain back the lost HP. Currently we are giving away 7 tenths/per lap because of the engine alone, and no amount of new aero parts will ever solve that deficit.

[Brembo]

With Charles on the podium , nothing but pure optimism for Ferrari. Making due with what he has is a sure sign of a great driver to have on any team. Ferrari's lucky to have him!

[JPZ]

As I said, "any means necessary". F1 isn't about winning the popularity or moral contest, Ferrari needs to think outside the box to gain back the lost HP. Currently we are giving away 7 tenths/per lap because of the engine alone, and no amount of new aero parts will ever solve that deficit.

Agreed.

[Silent Bob]

The only thing Marko is good at is destroying a young drivers career. And Marko has been saying lots of things, like how they had the best winter of all and how they gonna challenge Mercedes....as I said whatever Marko says hardly worth any value. But if his words make you happy and give you conviction of Mercedes being cheats, then whatever. I'm not here to change peoples mind.

And as I've said before, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that Ferrari is spending millions of millions of money every year while knowing pretty well that they are getting ****** by the FIA and Mercedes. Words are cheap. Show us the evidence of FIA favoring Mercedes and vice versa, and it has to be absolute proof. But just like the flat earther can't provide the evidence of earth being flat, you can't either. It's nothing but bitter rants.


Maybe it's time for you to take a breath and settle down and maybe stop with the attitude and name calling. I stated that Merc might be getting preferential treatment. I didn't say they were cheating. When they got this engine formula approved, they pushed for it because they knew they had a tech edge on the others. That is a pretty big win for them, gotten because they forced the issue. There have been lots of instances when rules have been changed during a season to outlaw devices or close loopholes. This didn't happen with DAS. It was allowed to be used and then outlawed next year. Seems like a pretty good arrangement for Merc. Our floor in 2017 passed all FIA inspection sand then had to be changed during the season. FIA installed sensors on our battery system and more on our engine. How many on the Mercs? The tires Merc fought for with the shallower tread suited their car better. They fought for that and got it regardless of who agreed.. they were the loudest voice and they got what they wanted and it helped them.

Oh and your rant against DAS... DAS adjusts the toe of the car not the camber. If it did, it would be outlawed as that is not allowed, but large adjustments of toe can alter camber so I'm still not sure why it's been allowed as making adjustments to front wheels after parc ferme is strictly forbidden, but Merc gets another pass. So it helps to know what you're arguing against.

[tifosi1993]

Maybe it's time for you to take a breath and settle down and maybe stop with the attitude and name calling. I stated that Merc might be getting preferential treatment. I didn't say they were cheating. When they got this engine formula approved, they pushed for it because they knew they had a tech edge on the others. That is a pretty big win for them, gotten because they forced the issue. There have been lots of instances when rules have been changed during a season to outlaw devices or close loopholes. This didn't happen with DAS. It was allowed to be used and then outlawed next year. Seems like a pretty good arrangement for Merc. Our floor in 2017 passed all FIA inspection sand then had to be changed during the season. FIA installed sensors on our battery system and more on our engine. How many on the Mercs? The tires Merc fought for with the shallower tread suited their car better. They fought for that and got it regardless of who agreed.. they were the loudest voice and they got what they wanted and it helped them.

Oh and your rant against DAS... DAS adjusts the toe of the car not the camber. If it did, it would be outlawed as that is not allowed, but large adjustments of toe can alter camber so I'm still not sure why it's been allowed as making adjustments to front wheels after parc ferme is strictly forbidden, but Merc gets another pass. So it helps to know what you're arguing against.

My tone is completely fine, lately this forum has been filled with 40+ year old man childs, always throwing their toys out of their pram and all those whining, complaining and conspiracy theories, it is getting ridiculous. If the current state of F1 takes your blood pressure off the roof, and giving you silly ideas like the FIA sabotaging Ferrari and giving Mercedes preferential treatments, may be it's time to follow another sport. It's a bit like "Fergie Time", only it's F1's version of Fergie Time.

And I know what DAS does, but unlike others, I'm not pretending to be an expert. The DAS allows Mercedes drivers to steer the wheel in and out, so that track rods move in opposite directions, instead of moving together when it is left and right. And if your argument is, as Red Bull's was, that the DAS allows Mercedes to influence the ride height, then it's not an good argument. Steering also influences ride height, so if you want to ban DAS then F1 needs to ban conventional steering as well. DAS is basically doing exactly the same thing the normal steering does, it's just moving the wheels in opposite direction. If it's altering the ride height then so is turning the wheel normally.

But I've wasted enough time arguing with conspiracy theorists. You go ahead and believe whatever you want.

[SS454]

Proof? F1 is a data centric sport. But of course, ******* like you only want to look for conspiracies and what not. Your tiny brain can't process anything else. So again, show the world your conclusive proofs of Mercedes being cheats. Put up or shut up.

And really, have you been hibernating or something. I know Canada is cold, but come on. Ferrari's performance remained the same after that "tiny" construction changes, as evident by Vettel winning the Canadian GP. I guess you have missed your countries own GP, since you were busy hibernating.

And I'm yet to see any official protest regarding the DAS. Which tells me, other teams, apart from your beloved Red Bull that is, have no problem with the DAS. And more importantly, I have yet see to any protest from Ferrari. And Ferrari previously considered using the DAS, but they didn't because they "didn’t clarify with the FIA at the time". But I'm sure you would have accused Ferrari of being cheats as well, just like your beloved Red Bull and Marko would.

And of course you're not going to watch, and why would you anyway. To you, Vettel's silly antics after the race is more important than any official protest from Ferrari. But Vettel fanboys are only going to focus on Vettel, that's hardly surprising. Again, there was no protest from Ferrari regarding Vettel's penalty.

As I've said before, bitter and lazy haters accused Ferrari of being cheats in the past. And that same bitter and lazy fools doing the same with Mercedes now. And please, don't lecture me about the 'real world', you conspiracy nutjob. Stop obsessing about Mercedes, Marko, Vettel, Moms and basements and focus on the reality. Best teams will always win. End of discussion.

Nice attitude. Really shows your character.

[Silent Bob]

My tone is completely fine, lately this forum has been filled with 40+ year old man childs, always throwing their toys out of their pram and all those whining, complaining and conspiracy theories, it is getting ridiculous. If the current state of F1 takes your blood pressure off the roof, and giving you silly ideas like the FIA sabotaging Ferrari and giving Mercedes preferential treatments, may be it's time to follow another sport. It's a bit like "Fergie Time", only it's F1's version of Fergie Time.

And I know what DAS does, but unlike others, I'm not pretending to be an expert. The DAS allows Mercedes drivers to steer the wheel in and out, so that track rods move in opposite directions, instead of moving together when it is left and right. And if your argument is, as Red Bull's was, that the DAS allows Mercedes to influence the ride height, then it's not an good argument. Steering also influences ride height, so if you want to ban DAS then F1 needs to ban conventional steering as well. DAS is basically doing exactly the same thing the normal steering does, it's just moving the wheels in opposite direction. If it's altering the ride height then so is turning the wheel normally.

But I've wasted enough time arguing with conspiracy theorists. You go ahead and believe whatever you want.



Well you may say you're not an expert but you always seem to have something to say. This forum has pretty much the same people that have been here for many years. Seems like you have issues with some posters' opinions and always feel the need to comment and tell them how wrong they are. And yes turning wheels do affect ride height, but they are turning in the same direction. merc exploited a loophole and the FIA is letting them use it for the whole season when many times in the past stuff like this has been banned quite quickly. But nothing to see here. Sorry if my lame arguments are so boring and ridiculous to you. But I won't waste anymore of your time... you probably have so many more important things to do than up you post count.

[tifosi1993]

Nice attitude. Really shows your character.

Let's see: " you clearly are stuck in your own distorted reality that there is no point to discuss with you further", then why you're replying to my post again.
"Again, you're own distorted reality", distorted only for conspiracy theorists.
"Why do you bother posting in this thread?", Because I can. Nowhere it says: this place is only for crazies, normal people are not allowed to post here.
"you need to get out of your mom's basement and look at the real world.", And you have problem with my attitude. :rotfl

Maybe cut the condescending tone next time. If you throw rocks at other people, then be ready for counter attack.

[tifosi1993]

Well you may say you're not an expert but you always seem to have something to say. This forum has pretty much the same people that have been here for many years. Seems like you have issues with some posters' opinions and always feel the need to comment and tell them how wrong they are. And yes turning wheels do affect ride height, but they are turning in the same direction. merc exploited a loophole and the FIA is letting them use it for the whole season when many times in the past stuff like this has been banned quite quickly. But nothing to see here. Sorry if my lame arguments are so boring and ridiculous to you. But I won't waste anymore of your time... you probably have so many more important things to do than up you post count.

And it seems you have urgent need to reply to my posts. It wasn't like I was discussing with you or anything. My original post wasn't directed to anyone.
Post counts? not really a concern to me. But it seems you have so much "busy" time in your hand, you always have to keep an eye on other peoples post count. Whatever.

"FIA is letting them use it for the whole season when many times in the past stuff like this has been banned quite quickly. But nothing to see here." Yeah, you are right. Because there's really nothing to see here. And its not the first time either, FIA had done the same thing in the past as well. Like when they allowed Mclaren's F-duct for one year, then banned it next year. Finding "loopholes" is part of the game. So you can keep your lame arguments (honest words) to yourself and keep believing the Mercedes bad-Red Bull good narrative.

[Silent Bob]

And it seems you have urgent need to reply to my posts. It wasn't like I was discussing with you or anything. My original post wasn't directed to anyone.
Post counts? not really a concern to me. But it seems you have so much "busy" time in your hand, you always have to keep an eye on other peoples post count. Whatever.

"FIA is letting them use it for the whole season when many times in the past stuff like this has been banned quite quickly. But nothing to see here." Yeah, you are right. Because there's really nothing to see here. And its not the first time either, FIA had done the same thing in the past as well. Like when they allowed Mclaren's F-duct for one year, then banned it next year. Finding "loopholes" is part of the game. So you can keep your lame arguments (honest words) to yourself and keep believing the Mercedes bad-Red Bull good narrative.

Oh boy. You really hate it when someone doesn't agree with you.

[Brembo]

Oh boy. You really hate it when someone doesn't agree with you.

Do not go "Silent!" Bob, your posts are great. Down force is all you need !

[Brembo]

Not to exaggerate, and give superhuman powers to him!? He had like 50 second advantage over MV, and lest than a half a lap!

Who got him the 50 second advantage with just 1/2 a lap to go? That's some lead indeed. The 3 wheel victory and Charles' podium made the race great to watch. Again, almost zero points for Merc!

[stefa]

Who got him the 50 second advantage with just 1/2 a lap to go? That's some lead indeed. The 3 wheel victory and Charles' podium made the race great to watch. Again, almost zero points for Merc!

You ask who got him?! Really?! Mercedes with out of the this F1 class car! I really do believe, that he is driving races with max 70 to 80% of capabilities of that car! Even with that he got him self 50 sec advantage and without a sweat!

[Brembo]

You ask who got him?! Really?! Mercedes with out of the this F1 class car! I really do believe, that he is driving races with max 70 to 80% of capabilities of that car! Even with that he got him self 50 sec advantage and without a sweat!

95% of the cars capabilities were gone last race, last lap, when Lewis saved Merc and himself from scoring zero points. I agree with you that he's using say 80% of the cars capabilities max, the rest is his driving abilities. I can't help but laugh when fans here insinuate that any driver including Lewis should only be considered true WDC champions come the end of the year if they are driving for say Williams or any other bottom finishing team. Anyway Charles to the podium or pole next race!!!

[stefa]

95% of the cars capabilities were gone last race, last lap, when Lewis saved Merc and himself from scoring zero points. I agree with you that he's using say 80% of the cars capabilities max, the rest is his driving abilities. I can't help but laugh when fans here insinuate that any driver including Lewis should only be considered true WDC champions come the end of the year if they are driving for say Williams or any other bottom finishing team. Anyway Charles to the podium or pole next race!!!

:rotfl

[aroutis]

My tone is completely fine, lately this forum has been filled with 40+ year old man childs, always throwing their toys out of their pram and all those whining, complaining and conspiracy theories, it is getting ridiculous. If the current state of F1 takes your blood pressure off the roof, and giving you silly ideas like the FIA sabotaging Ferrari and giving Mercedes preferential treatments, may be it's time to follow another sport. It's a bit like "Fergie Time", only it's F1's version of Fergie Time.

And I know what DAS does, but unlike others, I'm not pretending to be an expert. The DAS allows Mercedes drivers to steer the wheel in and out, so that track rods move in opposite directions, instead of moving together when it is left and right. And if your argument is, as Red Bull's was, that the DAS allows Mercedes to influence the ride height, then it's not an good argument. Steering also influences ride height, so if you want to ban DAS then F1 needs to ban conventional steering as well. DAS is basically doing exactly the same thing the normal steering does, it's just moving the wheels in opposite direction. If it's altering the ride height then so is turning the wheel normally.

But I've wasted enough time arguing with conspiracy theorists. You go ahead and believe whatever you want.

No, your tone is not fine. If you cannot calm down, there are pills to help you.

[Brembo]

:rotfl

I can dream , can't I ?:rotfl Please don't listen to Binotto. He will have me watching baseball!

[Brembo]

No, your tone is not fine. If you cannot calm down, there are pills to help you.

Also good wine from France , Italy and Argentina. It works for me.

[jgonzalesm6]

No, your tone is not fine. If you cannot calm down, there are pills to help you.

Seems calm to me aroutis re: tifosi1993.

Also his tone seems calm to me as well. That's just my opinion.

[JPZ]

Who got him the 50 second advantage with just 1/2 a lap to go? That's some lead indeed. The 3 wheel victory and Charles' podium made the race great to watch. Again, almost zero points for Merc!

Made the last 3 laps interesting to watch.

The rest of the race was extremely boring and showed the worst of F1 in the current era.

[Silent Bob]

I can dream , can't I ?:rotfl Please don't listen to Binotto. He will have me watching baseball!

Better a dream than this nightmare, but it looks like Binotto has changed his tune since he's no longer TD. He's picked up some of your positivity. Maybe Leclerc might have a chance at pole or a win.




Also good wine from France , Italy and Argentina. It works for me.


Hey. What about Canada? We have some decent wine. Although I'm, more of a beer guy.



Seems calm to me aroutis re: tifosi1993.

Also his tone seems calm to me as well. That's just my opinion.


If name calling, denigrating, belittling posters is calm... ok then, I respect your opinion.

[tifosi1993]

Seems calm to me aroutis re: tifosi1993.

Also his tone seems calm to me as well. That's just my opinion.

And I haven't received a single ban or suspension, and been posting here since Jul 2012.

Oh I see you've got over 7,000 posts jgonzalesm6, @silent Bob probably thinks you've got nothing better to do with your life. :lol

[Silent Bob]

And I haven't received a single ban or suspension, and been posting here since Jul 2012.

Oh I see you've got over 7,000 posts jgonzalesm6, @silent Bob probably thinks you've got nothing better to do with your life. :lol

Oh no, not at all. I think jgonzalesm6 posts are pretty good. His are definitely worth reading and not a waste of time at all.

[tifosi1993]

Oh no, not at all. I think jgonzalesm6 posts are pretty good. His are definitely worth reading and not a waste of time at all.

Indeed. Certainly better than all those conspiracy theories, who are definitely wasting everyone's time here.

[jgonzalesm6]

If name calling, denigrating, belittling posters is calm... ok then, I respect your opinion.

What "name calling" did the poster call you??

Deginerating??? Sorry you feel that way.

Belittling?? Come on....please.


Oh no, not at all. I think jgonzalesm6 posts are pretty good. His are definitely worth reading and not a waste of time at all.


Indeed. Certainly better than all those conspiracy theories, who are definitely wasting everyone's time here.


:thumb X2

[stefa]

Made the last 3 laps interesting to watch.

The rest of the race was extremely boring and showed the worst of F1 in the current era.

EXACTLY!!! I rest my case!:clap

[Silent Bob]

What "name calling" did the poster call you??

Deginerating??? Sorry you feel that way.

Belittling?? Come on....please.






:thumb X2




When you disagree with someone, proving your point is fine, that's good debate. But resorting to name calling, like his last post and previous ones ie. flat earthers, 40 year old man babies, conspiracy theorists or this.."But of course, ******* like you only want to look for conspiracies and what not. Your tiny brain can't process anything else.", doesn't really add anything to this forum or the argument. Belittling? denigrating? I like reading both sides of the debates on this forum and everyone has their opinion. If you don't agree with them then fine... but no need to get nasty. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[jgonzalesm6]

When you disagree with someone, proving your point is fine, that's good debate. But resorting to name calling, like his last post and previous ones ie. flat earthers, 40 year old man babies, conspiracy theorists or this.."But of course, ******* like you only want to look for conspiracies and what not. Your tiny brain can't process anything else.", doesn't really add anything to this forum or the argument. Belittling? denigrating? I like reading both sides of the debates on this forum and everyone has their opinion. If you don't agree with them then fine... but no need to get nasty. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


Okay. I guess I grew up different. My dad was military so I tend to have a thicker skin than most.

[SS454]

Indeed. Certainly better than all those conspiracy theories, who are definitely wasting everyone's time here.

Nobody asked you to join the conversation. Either way, you are completely entitled to believe that Mercedes and every other team in Formula 1 are completely legal, and that Ferrari is just a garbage team. Not just a garbage team, but the only team in F1 to cheat. Which I find odd that you applauded the fact Ferrari cheated, and encourage future cheating. That's down right embarrassing to want to be the only cheaters in a sport full of legit, smarter competitors.

[JPZ]

Nobody asked you to join the conversation. Either way, you are completely entitled to believe that Mercedes and every other team in Formula 1 are completely legal, and that Ferrari is just a garbage team. Not just a garbage team, but the only team in F1 to cheat. Which I find odd that you applauded the fact Ferrari cheated, and encourage future cheating. That's down right embarrassing to want to be the only cheaters in a sport full of legit, smarter competitors.

There's no evidence that Ferrari were 'cheating' though.

[SS454]

There's no evidence that Ferrari were 'cheating' though.

Except the fact they lost a massive amount of power?

As nobody knows the agreement Ferrari and the FIA came to after their detailed inspection of the Ferrari power unit, nobody can say if it was clear cut cheating, or exploiting a loophole.... in any case the FIA deemed whatever Ferrari was doing was against the sporting regulations (ie: cheating) and had to stop. So the evidence is that Ferrari were doing something to have the best PU, and the FIA have put a stop to it and now they have the worst PU.

[FerrariF60]

Except the fact they lost a massive amount of power?

As nobody knows the agreement Ferrari and the FIA came to after their detailed inspection of the Ferrari power unit, nobody can say if it was clear cut cheating, or exploiting a loophole.... in any case the FIA deemed whatever Ferrari was doing was against the sporting regulations (ie: cheating) and had to stop. So the evidence is that Ferrari were doing something to have the best PU, and the FIA have put a stop to it and now they have the worst PU.

and now merc have NO competition, they keep on winning championships adn everyone including the FIA are happy....and Ferrari are....well....fighting in the midfield....all this for the "GOOD OF THE SPORT".....whatever that means

[jgonzalesm6]

Nobody asked you to join the conversation. Either way, you are completely entitled to believe that Mercedes and every other team in Formula 1 are completely legal, and that Ferrari is just a garbage team. Not just a garbage team, but the only team in F1 to cheat. Which I find odd that you applauded the fact Ferrari cheated, and encourage future cheating. That's down right embarrassing to want to be the only cheaters in a sport full of legit, smarter competitors.

Ferrari found a "loophole" with the first fuel flow sensor


There's no evidence that Ferrari were 'cheating' though.

yep


Except the fact they lost a massive amount of power?

As nobody knows the agreement Ferrari and the FIA came to after their detailed inspection of the Ferrari power unit, nobody can say if it was clear cut cheating, or exploiting a loophole.... in any case the FIA deemed whatever Ferrari was doing was against the sporting regulations (ie: cheating) and had to stop. So the evidence is that Ferrari were doing something to have the best PU, and the FIA have put a stop to it and now they have the worst PU.

I'm an advocate for finding loopholes in the sport. I've always said, "If you ain't "cheating" or finding the loopholes you're trying hard enough. That goes for any team.

Ferrari got caught (insider???) and are now paying the price for it.

[SS454]

I'm an advocate for finding loopholes in the sport. I've always said, "If you ain't "cheating" or finding the loopholes you're trying hard enough. That goes for any team.

Ferrari got caught (insider???) and are now paying the price for it.

I too am an advocate for finding loopholes. Some "loopholes" are more blatant disregard of regulations than others. The rule book clearly stated a 100 kg/hr fuel flow limit, but Ferrari figured a way around it, which is a bit worse than say burning of the oil, as the rules only specified 100 kg/hr of gasoline . Now if a team was oxygenating their oil, that'd be blatant cheating IMO.

Ferrari lost power when the FIA made some clarifications prior to COTA 2019. A pretty significant drop in power too. It's strange Ferrari lost another huge chunk of power after the FIA's inspection. So it seems Ferrari's efforts went into exploiting this "loophole". I've done some reading on it, and there were several ways to flow well over 100 kg/hr but satisfy the sensors. One was by holding more fuel after the sensor, which allowed for extra fuel to flow through the high pressure fuel pump just prior to the injectors.

What I still find strange is that Ferrari was the only one doing this? If Renault, Honda, and Mercedes weren't/aren't exploiting the same loophole over the last 6 years, then where is their power coming from?

[jgonzalesm6]

I too am an advocate for finding loopholes. Some "loopholes" are more blatant disregard of regulations than others. The rule book clearly stated a 100 kg/hr fuel flow limit, but Ferrari figured a way around it, which is a bit worse than say burning of the oil, as the rules only specified 100 kg/hr of gasoline . Now if a team was oxygenating their oil, that'd be blatant cheating IMO.

Ferrari lost power when the FIA made some clarifications prior to COTA 2019. A pretty significant drop in power too. It's strange Ferrari lost another huge chunk of power after the FIA's inspection. So it seems Ferrari's efforts went into exploiting this "loophole". I've done some reading on it, and there were several ways to flow well over 100 kg/hr but satisfy the sensors. One was by holding more fuel after the sensor, which allowed for extra fuel to flow through the high pressure fuel pump just prior to the injectors.

What I still find strange is that Ferrari was the only one doing this? If Renault, Honda, and Mercedes weren't/aren't exploiting the same loophole over the last 6 years, then where is their power coming from?

Ferrari "tricked" the original fuel flow sensor with their fuel flow regulator to "comply" with the 100kg/hr mandate. The FIA fuel flow sensor would operate during certain intervals. When the original fuel flow sensor was'nt looking, the regulator sent in more fuel. Now with the 2nd fuel flow sensor installed by the FIA, it monitors fuel flow randomly.

Mercedes is the only full works team that has optimized thermal efficiency with their PU, especially in qualifying because once you get P1 during quali, it's pretty much smooth sailing from there in the race...provided you take into account safety cars and tire strat. Renault and Honda are off in hp compared to Mercedes and of course Ferrari is way off in hp. Ferrari is back to 2015 or 2016 hp levels IMO.

Mercedes for 2020 found more hp, whether by fuel or optimizing the PU even more because of the Ferrari threat in 2019. How they are doing it is beyond anyone's guess except for Mercedes. I'm sure we'll know down the road how they are able to get more and more hp through the years of this turbo hybrid era.

[tifosi1993]

Nobody asked you to join the conversation. Either way, you are completely entitled to believe that Mercedes and every other team in Formula 1 are completely legal, and that Ferrari is just a garbage team. Not just a garbage team, but the only team in F1 to cheat. Which I find odd that you applauded the fact Ferrari cheated, and encourage future cheating. That's down right embarrassing to want to be the only cheaters in a sport full of legit, smarter competitors.

You clearly don't know anything aboutt F1 or how it operates. To you, Pirelli changes tyre compounds because Mercedes tells them to do it, according to you all these decisions are arbitrarily taken, not because of gigabyes of data Pirelli collects after every race. You have been going on about DAS and how it changes the ride height, again you are demonstrating your lack of any knowledge or understanding regarding the DAS.
And I've never said Ferrari or any other team are garbage, that's your conclusion no mine. Stop putting your own words into other peoples mouth.

And Ferrari never cheated, there's no evidence of it. They've found a loophole with the fuel flow sensor, and took full advantage of it. And I will forever applaud them for doing it. Finding loopholes are part of the game.
But of course to you, when Ferrari designed a great engine last year, or when Mercedes designs a great car like the current one, they are nothing but cheaters. It really must be weird to follow F1 with such a slanted perspective that this is what the situation actually looked like to you.

[aroutis]

Seems calm to me aroutis re: tifosi1993.

Also his tone seems calm to me as well. That's just my opinion.

I am sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree :)

[stefa]

Mercedes: "Zero worries" on Racing Point F1 copying case
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151157/mercedes-zero-worries-on-racing-point-copying-case

[paolo lalli]

The more mercedes keep saying they have zero worries the lowder the bells of deciet ring.Now the wolf yes that Toto is crying about the Concorde agreement.That greedy suck wants it all his way this is purely distraction.His lame defence and reasons leaves one thing for sure changes can not come quick enough to a sport that needs new energy a new direction and fresh oxygen.Frankly iam sick of that character occupying to much space.

[ferrari1.8t]

Mercedes: "Zero worries" on Racing Point F1 copying case
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151157/mercedes-zero-worries-on-racing-point-copying-case

Lol, of course Wolff has zero worries. Merc can never be in the wrong, completely protected by the maFIA no matter what. And it’s just as I suspected; another butler to keep Hamilton untouched:

[I]"I see some benefits," he said. "I think we have a team that is competing amongst the front running teams now[/I“

Ferrari, McLaren and Renault are not happy with the results. I’m sure RedBull will join in if they are behind RP this weekend.

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/29614309/rivals-suspect-racing-point-ruling-just-tip-iceberg

[SS454]

It will be interesting to see Renault or other teams take this to a court of appeal. I think it'd be a very difficult case to win as the team being copied (Mercedes) is part of the scheme. If they aren't filing any legal action against RP, how much can actually properly investigated? The FIA has already turned their head to allow this Mercedes/RP saga go on. It was clearly stated that the FIA have been involved in every part of this copygate and saw it to be completely legal, and within the sporting regulations of F1. But after Renault's double protest, the FIA were forced to say.... well maybe it wasn't 100% legal.

Even though Mercedes are a partner in this scam, they worst they could be penalized is a fine. Their own cars haven't been found to be illegal so they can't punish their participation in F1.

This definitely supports my believe that the FIA/F1 is corrupt and Mercedes gets special treatment.

[458 Italia]

It will be interesting to see Renault or other teams take this to a court of appeal. I think it'd be a very difficult case to win as the team being copied (Mercedes) is part of the scheme. If they aren't filing any legal action against RP, how much can actually properly investigated? The FIA has already turned their head to allow this Mercedes/RP saga go on. It was clearly stated that the FIA have been involved in every part of this copygate and saw it to be completely legal, and within the sporting regulations of F1. But after Renault's double protest, the FIA were forced to say.... well maybe it wasn't 100% legal.

Even though Mercedes are a partner in this scam, they worst they could be penalized is a fine. Their own cars haven't been found to be illegal so they can't punish their participation in F1.

This definitely supports my believe that the FIA/F1 is corrupt and Mercedes gets special treatment.

I suppose if they were to find a mercedes serial number on ANY part of their car that would prove then a mercedes car was illegal. ;-)

[paneristi]

Corrupt FIA? Definitely. Cheating? The corrupted body made it legal for certain party to do things the way they want by (you know what). That’s why we need someone with strong connection and personality. Not mr. nice guy.

[paolo lalli]

Mcdonalds McLaren back out of appealling Racing point penalties.I smell a wolf.

[paolo lalli]

The FIA needs a total clean out the cupboard smells from top to bottom.Better still buy a new one .

[SS454]

Mcdonalds McLaren back out of appealling Racing point penalties.I smell a wolf.

I won't be surprised if Williams will back out as well, unless they intend to use a different power unit next year. I don't blame McLaren for backing out, they don't want to stop receiving the best engine on the grid by a big margin.

Red Bull needs to stop being wimps and join Ferrari with their protest.

[330 p4]

This is not the main point of what's happening. During all this noise notice how Tracing Point performances have dropped. Just need to keep this going. Secondly bit of a pincer movement politically, Ferrari with Renault officially protesting but Red Bull are playing the media with questioning Mercs role. Merc board are scared of bad publicity true or not. Fuhrer Wolf has a stake in Aston now, Mercs commitment not confirmed (Fuhrer Wolf wants flexibility on new Concorde agreement as 5 years does not allow this?). Dragging the Nazi Taxis name through the dirt is a good way to get rid of them. This is Ferrari flexing their political muscle and getting others on board. Seems a 180 from pre season controversy with teams furious at the Ferrari engine deal. Ferrari agreed to all the new rules and now get others on side. It's all about the long game with new rules for 2022. No point wasting political power on current rules as Merc are too much on the high ground. This is all setting the foundations for 2022, that's why Wolf is losing his cool in interviews and in particular for Binotto. Fuhrer sees Binotto as a threat, the politics is the foundation for all success, technically theres not a world of difference.

[paolo lalli]

Binotto the silent assain

[Brembo]

Forget politics and media talk. Lewis brought his ride home on 3 wheels. If not that's 25 pts. he would have lost for WDC, WCC. It was him ; not the car alone that got the win. Max is keeping Merc and Lewis with some competition for sure. Come 2023 Ferrari will also be in the mix according to Binotto! The win, podiums , pole still have me enjoying F-1 races big time. And I always believe Charles has a shot .

[tifosi1993]

Mcdonalds McLaren back out of appealling Racing point penalties.I smell a wolf.

Mclaren is a small fish pretending to be a great white shark. It's the same with Ferrari-FIA engine deal, Mclaren made lots of noises back then, and that's the only thing it can do.

Ferrari and Renault are appealing, and that's what matters.

[nani_s23]

'@F1 has clarified the Concorde Agreement timeline. The early sign-on deadline is now August 18, moved back a few days afters some late legal tinkering, and the final deadline is August 31

FIA Mercs :clap

[nani_s23]

'@F1 has clarified the Concorde Agreement timeline. The early sign-on deadline is now August 18, moved back a few days afters some late legal tinkering, and the final deadline is August 31

FIA Mercs :clap

[ferrari1.8t]

'@F1 has clarified the Concorde Agreement timeline. The early sign-on deadline is now August 18, moved back a few days afters some late legal tinkering, and the final deadline is August 31

FIA Mercs :clap

And some forum members still believe Mercs power with the FIA is just a conspiracy theory. Merc owns the sport.

[SilverSpeed]

Yup MAFIA, Mercedes Assist in FIA.

[Brembo]

And some forum members still believe Mercs power with the FIA is just a conspiracy theory. Merc owns the sport.

Max dosen't realize that! And Max inspires Charles! I hope for the best.

[nani_s23]

Max dosen't realize that! And Max inspires Charles! I hope for the best.

Max inspires Charles.....:rotfl. Actually what was the above statement & Wts your reply ... non-sync. Every post it will be either hate Vettel/ god Max/ max inspires Charles .... :rotfl

Leclerc do have identity on his own. There’s no need for him to follow one’s foot steps. Leclerc era will come soon... just like schumi/Alonso taking the underperforming car to the victory.

Favouritism of max reaching peaks.....glad that you didn’t say he inspired RG & K-MAG.

[nani_s23]

And some forum members still believe Mercs power with the FIA is just a conspiracy theory. Merc owns the sport.

Yup.... now that McLaren/Williams drops appeal against RP shows Mercs power. As merc will
be supplying engines to these teams.

[Brembo]

Meanwhile theory aside , Honda won last race. Max to the maximum! The future GOATs biggest non WDC competition. The 155 podium record was tied but that #91 is still not any closer.

[paolo lalli]

As I have said before give Charles a winning car and he will do the rest.He is a cut above the rest brilliant to watch him drive the wheels of the current Ferrari.

[ferrari1.8t]

Max dosen't realize that! And Max inspires Charles! I hope for the best.

Unbelievable. You even turned a Mercedes corruption post into one about Max. I think you have an obsession. Maybe start following RedBull, because Max will never be a Ferrari driver.

[ferrari1.8t]

Meanwhile theory aside , Honda won last race. Max to the maximum! The future GOATs biggest non WDC competition. The 155 podium record was tied but that #91 is still not any closer.

Another one. :-E:Hmm

[nani_s23]

Unbelievable. You even turned a Mercedes corruption post into one about Max. I think you have an obsession. Maybe start following RedBull, because Max will never be a Ferrari driver.

Every post of his turns into Max :rotfl.....off late I’m seeing max inspired Leclerc :rotfl funny post.
Max inspired entire field or Even FIA:-D

[330 p4]

This weekend may be the last where qualifying engine modes are allowed. Original plan was to ban in 2021 but may now be from the Belgium Grand Prix the race after Spain. This is Ferrari pushing behind the scenes, cannot update the engine in any way so drag the others back towards you somewhat. Great if this happens.

[tifosi1993]

So we are back to FIA being "Ferrari's International Assistant" or is it still MAFIA? :lol

Nonetheless, the Q3 engine mode ban will benefit us the most.

[FerrariF60]

So we are back to FIA being "Ferrari's International Assistant" or is it still MAFIA? :lol

Nonetheless, the Q3 engine mode ban will benefit us the most.

And as I’ve read this morning, Todt wants to introduce this as soon as Belgian GP this year....that would be amazing

So I guess yiure right we’re back to the Ferrari International Assistance..... and NOT MIfIA anymore......lol

[330 p4]

The letter has been sent to teams as reported on another F1 site. Qualy modes banned from Belgium. As Ferrari engine is mainly down in qualifying, if they were bypassing fuel flow regs could have only done that in qualifying or select laps in a race, now nobody can do it I will he intrigued to see if this closes things up a bit.

[FerrariF60]

The letter has been sent to teams as reported on another F1 site. Qualy modes banned from Belgium. As Ferrari engine is mainly down in qualifying, if they were bypassing fuel flow regs could have only done that in qualifying or select laps in a race, now nobody can do it I will he intrigued to see if this closes things up a bit.

We as fans can only hope....personally I don’t think we’ll have a shot at the championship this year NOT by a long shot, but it may bring Max into play....and if we’re not capable of winning this year then I would very much so want Max to win it....as much as I dislike him as a driver and his personality

Keep in mind that this season is pretty short and we have like how many races in total, 14 or 16.....

[nani_s23]

So we are back to FIA being "Ferrari's International Assistant" or is it still MAFIA? :lol

Nonetheless, the Q3 engine mode ban will benefit us the most.

#F1: Kimi Räikkönen on possible ban of quali modes. "We don't have it. So it won't affect us." Read all backgrounds in our #AMuS story. Plus more changes to aerodynamics in 2021 in order to reduce downforce and avoid that Pirelli has to bring new tires.

It will benefit RB hugely. I think they are making Ham vs Max battle this season.

[330 p4]

We as fans can only hope....personally I don’t think we’ll have a shot at the championship this year NOT by a long shot, but it may bring Max into play....and if we’re not capable of winning this year then I would very much so want Max to win it....as much as I dislike him as a driver and his personality

Keep in mind that this season is pretty short and we have like how many races in total, 14 or 16.....

Oh yes no chance for title this year or probably next. This is however the 1st time their seems to be a political battle against Merc. This is the kind of stuff they did pre 2014 to set the foundations of current dominance. It will take a number of background changes to chip away at them and all in time for 2022. This is a big win however as it is a bit like an engine upgrade for Ferrari without having to update the engine. Should help close the gap somewhat.

[tifosi1993]

#F1: Kimi Räikkönen on possible ban of quali modes. "We don't have it. So it won't affect us." Read all backgrounds in our #AMuS story. Plus more changes to aerodynamics in 2021 in order to reduce downforce and avoid that Pirelli has to bring new tires.

It will benefit RB hugely. I think they are making Ham vs Max battle this season.

It will only benefit those with least peak horsepower. Q3 mode = highest peak power possible, and Merc, Honda and Renault all are ahead of Ferrari PU in terms of absolute peak power this year.

It will certainly hit Mercedes, Red Bull, TP, Renault and Williams hard. It will benefit us, Mclaren, Alfa Romeo, White Toro Rosso and Haas.

[tifosi1993]

Also it just isn't the Q3 mode, they are also banning different engine modes that teams are using during races. So no more strap 1 or 2 whatever they call it.

This rule is pretty much PU pare ferme. So Mercedes have to qualify both it's cars with the same engine mode that it will use during the race.

[FerrariF60]

It will only benefit those with least peak horsepower. Q3 mode = highest peak power possible, and Merc, Honda and Renault all are ahead of Ferrari PU in terms of absolute peak power this year.

It will certainly hit Mercedes, Red Bull, TP, Renault and Williams hard. It will benefit us, Mclaren, Alfa Romeo, White Toro Rosso and Haas.

who's TP

[FerrariF60]

Also it just isn't the Q3 mode, they are also banning different engine modes that teams are using during races. So no more strap 1 or 2 whatever they call it.

This rule is pretty much PU pare ferme. So Mercedes have to qualify both it's cars with the same engine mode that it will use during the race.

what about PUSH TO PASS???????????

[nani_s23]

who's TP

Tracing point :rotfl

[nani_s23]

It will only benefit those with least peak horsepower. Q3 mode = highest peak power possible, and Merc, Honda and Renault all are ahead of Ferrari PU in terms of absolute peak power this year.

It will certainly hit Mercedes, Red Bull, TP, Renault and Williams hard. It will benefit us, Mclaren, Alfa Romeo, White Toro Rosso and Haas.

But somehow I feel it’s still isn’t enough at least for us.
Mercs will have a fight with RB, I’m happy if I’m wrong.

Because I want to see Max vs Lec & show who’s the boss for few :-D

[SS454]

Banning qualifying mode makes absolutely no sense. If a team is legally making 1000 horsepower when turned to the max, how can they be stopped from that? "Hey Mercedes, stop making the most power". Mercedes have said their party mode is when they open the waste gates and let the turbo put direct power to the MGU H without harvesting. It just drains the battery to the max without any harvesting.

For the FIA to ban this, it would surely effect every team. Or the question would be why are no other engine manufacturers doing something similar? The only way I can see this hindering Mercedes only, is if they have been using more than the allowed Megajoules per lap or their Electrical power is more than the 161 horsepower that is allowed, or they are using more fuel than is allowed when the turbo is at max boost.

[jgonzalesm6]

Banning qualifying mode makes absolutely no sense. If a team is legally making 1000 horsepower when turned to the max, how can they be stopped from that? "Hey Mercedes, stop making the most power". Mercedes have said their party mode is when they open the waste gates and let the turbo put direct power to the MGU H without harvesting. It just drains the battery to the max without any harvesting.

For the FIA to ban this, it would surely effect every team. Or the question would be why are no other engine manufacturers doing something similar? The only way I can see this hindering Mercedes only, is if they have been using more than the allowed Megajoules per lap or their Electrical power is more than the 161 horsepower that is allowed, or they are using more fuel than is allowed when the turbo is at max boost.


Banning the "party mode" only affects Mercedes.

Why is the FIA banning the "party mode?" ummm, probably because the "sharing of info" between Mercedes and Racing Point.

The FIA is punishing Mercedes to have only 1 "party mode" from SPA onwards.

[Schumiklub]

Charles and Seb say Ferrari doesn’t have a quali mode this year so the ban won’t affect us. Imagine what a huge setback we suffered due to the new directives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FerrariF60]

Charles and Seb say Ferrari doesn’t have a quali mode this year so the ban won’t affect us. Imagine what a huge setback we suffered due to the new directives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s cause OUR party mode consisted in tricking the fuel flow sensor, hence using more fuel in Quali especially Q3..... up since we got caught we have NO more part mode.....just regular mode

[Schumiklub]

That’s cause OUR party mode consisted in tricking the fuel flow sensor, hence using more fuel in Quali especially Q3..... up since we got caught we have NO more part mode.....just regular mode

You mean we only have slow mode now [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FerrariF60]

You mean we only have slow mode now [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

that's right.....a.k.a donkey mode

[ferrari1.8t]

And as I’ve read this morning, Todt wants to introduce this as soon as Belgian GP this year....that would be amazing

So I guess yiure right we’re back to the Ferrari International Assistance..... and NOT MIfIA anymore......lol

Maybe the powers that be finally woke up and realized the damage that Merc/Hamilton dominance is doing to the sport. Like when they slowed us and Michael down years ago, it’s time to slow down Merc and Hamilton. Tyres that Merc burns through, no quali-mode, they are really pushing for a Verstappen-Hamilton battle this year. Good for them if this helps the show and stops Merc. Here’s hoping.

[SS454]

Banning the "party mode" only affects Mercedes.

Why is the FIA banning the "party mode?" ummm, probably because the "sharing of info" between Mercedes and Racing Point.

The FIA is punishing Mercedes to have only 1 "party mode" from SPA onwards.

That's kind of my point. IF it only affects Mercedes, then it would suggest their party mode was doing something outside the regulations. Otherwise how can they tell Mercedes to just stop making the most horsepower?

The alternative is Ferrari's "party mode" is being used in Q1, and Honda, and RBR's are used in Q2, and Mercedes uses max power only in Q3. Ferrari's 2019 party mode had a lot do with using more fuel than allowed, and that has been squashed for 2020.

[tifosi1993]

That’s cause OUR party mode consisted in tricking the fuel flow sensor, hence using more fuel in Quali especially Q3..... up since we got caught we have NO more part mode.....just regular mode

But that's not entirely true though is it. We had the best party mode in 2018 as well, even before the spec 2 upgrade that was introduced in Canada. Ferrari was 1-2 in Bahrain, 1-2 in China and 1-7 in Baku (should have been another easy 1-2, until Raikkonen blew it up at the final sector). It's just 2019 party mode was more extreme, that's all. :-)

This is a huge beneficial move for Ferrari powered cars.

[Silent Bob]

Might be the first indication of the FIA using their ferrari collaboration to close loop holes. Maybe Merc has a clever way of getting its party mode that might be a grey area and this effectively shut it down.

Or it could just be about marketing and closing up the field.

[paolo lalli]

What's wrong with 2 chains Hamilton does not like the idea of banning the party mode.Great idea level out the playing field and watch him crumble. 2 CHAINS Hamilton will actually have to race and they will be gunning for him.No more buffer to protect him and the butler.Pressure will mount and the beginning to the end of his career will be apparent.

[paolo lalli]

NO COMPETATIVE FERRARI NO FORMULA1 The drop off rate on TV is massive liberty media are spooked they have turned to the fia for assistance behind the scenes.Binotto is punching know and has landed some good head shots to wolfs head .Binotto is starting to rock the f1 world.There is lots going on behind the scenes can't wait as it all materialises.

[jgonzalesm6]

...... Otherwise how can they tell Mercedes to just stop making the most horsepower? ....

.

Because THEY are the FIA. They are telling Mercedes to have just 1 mode instead of several.

[KimiBot]

We had the best party mode in 2018

and now we have hangover mode :-D

[JPZ]

NO COMPETATIVE FERRARI NO FORMULA1 The drop off rate on TV is massive liberty media are spooked they have turned to the fia for assistance behind the scenes.Binotto is punching know and has landed some good head shots to wolfs head .Binotto is starting to rock the f1 world.There is lots going on behind the scenes can't wait as it all materialises.

I hope you are right and Ferrari are now fighting back.

[JPZ]

What's wrong with 2 chains Hamilton does not like the idea of banning the party mode.Great idea level out the playing field and watch him crumble. 2 CHAINS Hamilton will actually have to race and they will be gunning for him.No more buffer to protect him and the butler.Pressure will mount and the beginning to the end of his career will be apparent.

Would be hilarious if Hamilton somehow loses to Verstappen this year.

Who knows, perhaps the Merc will have more tyre problems?

[Silent Bob]

Maybe put some pressure on Hamilton and see if he really is as good as he thinks. If this brings the Mercs back into the field, might be a really good season, and I'll join Brembo and include Max in all my posts and cheer him on.

[paolo lalli]

I think that the fia are slapping Mercedes for the brake duct fiasco let's call it another secret settlement.Loose the party mode boost and keep your points.The wolf is loosing his grip if you lay down with dogs you catch flees.He has to choose his buddies better including lance stroll.

[paolo lalli]

The quicker f1 removes all of the coney island gimmicks on a formula 1 car party mode crap that 2 chains baptised it and returns to a natural setting the better the sport will become.2 chains will really have to work hard now.

[ferrari1.8t]

The quicker f1 removes all of the coney island gimmicks on a formula 1 car party mode crap that 2 chains baptised it and returns to a natural setting the better the sport will become.2 chains will really have to work hard now.

Hamilton: ‘They’re always trying to slow us down’

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-mercedes-slowed-down/

What a looser...actually Hamilton, they have constantly slowed everyone else down, giving Merc loopholes and spec tyres, and everyone else penalties to ensure that you win. Let’s see how you do when Verstappen and Leclerc are breathing down your neck. These boys aren’t butlers like Bottas who yield to you to make you feel special. Everytime you have had an inch of competition you get on the radio and whine...your day is coming.

[FerrariF60]

Hamilton: ‘They’re always trying to slow us down’

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-mercedes-slowed-down/

What a looser...actually Hamilton, they have constantly slowed everyone else down, giving Merc loopholes and spec tyres, and everyone else penalties to ensure that you win. Let’s see how you do when Verstappen and Leclerc are breathing down your neck. These boys aren’t butlers like Bottas who yield to you to make you feel special. Everytime you have had an inch of competition you get on the radio and whine...your day is coming.

about freaking time there is some justice....2 chains is starting to crap his pants....and me likey

[SS454]

I think that the fia are slapping Mercedes for the brake duct fiasco let's call it another secret settlement.Loose the party mode boost and keep your points.The wolf is loosing his grip if you lay down with dogs you catch flees.He has to choose his buddies better including lance stroll.

Very possible. If the FIA lay down a rule that appears to hurt Mercedes, people will look past that Mercedes has been caught in breach of regulations and the FIA won't have to do anything. While I don't believe Mercedes could receive constructors penalties for their part in the Racing Point story, they surely should receive a massive fine. If Spygate was worth $100m, what's this worth... $10-20m?

[FerrariF60]

Very possible. If the FIA lay down a rule that appears to hurt Mercedes, people will look past that Mercedes has been caught in breach of regulations and the FIA won't have to do anything. While I don't believe Mercedes could receive constructors penalties for their part in the Racing Point story, they surely should receive a massive fine. If Spygate was worth $100m, what's this worth... $10-20m?

yeah, but the spygate stripped Mcmowers of ALL POINTS.....no????

[Brembo]

Hamilton: ‘They’re always trying to slow us down’

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-mercedes-slowed-down/

What a looser...actually Hamilton, they have constantly slowed everyone else down, giving Merc loopholes and spec tyres, and everyone else penalties to ensure that you win. Let’s see how you do when Verstappen and Leclerc are breathing down your neck. These boys aren’t butlers like Bottas who yield to you to make you feel special. Everytime you have had an inch of competition you get on the radio and whine...your day is coming.

Your not supposed to mention the Honda driver ever here!!!!!:rotfl

[SS454]

yeah, but the spygate stripped Mcmowers of ALL POINTS.....no????

They did, but McLaren was the team using the illegal technical information. Mercedes isn't using anything proven legal on their car, so I don't think there is grounds to penalize them points. Racing Point on the other hand should lose all the points they run with the illegal brakes IMO.

[ferrari1.8t]

The best part of all of this is reading all of the comments on Twitter etc from the Hamilton fanboys. They are all loosing their minds about this engine mapping. Crying that this is all to help Ferrari; meanwhile RedBull is their closest competitor and who they should worry about.

If your boy Hamilton is so great, why are you worried? Shouldn't he win no matter what due to his greatness? Lol

It would be nice to believe that this will close the field up and slow down merc. In reality, their engine is so powerful that it probably won’t affect them as they have so much power in reserve.

[ferrari1.8t]

Your not supposed to mention the Honda driver ever here!!!!!:rotfl

Hey, as long as someone wipes that grin off of Hamilton’s face and stops him, I don’t care who it is. And right now Verstappen is the closest to doing that. 1 DNF for ham and we have a championship battle.

[330 p4]

On top of this engine brilliance I hold Ferrari responsible for (finally showing who the political daddy is) there will be as yet unspecified aero changes for 2021. Hopefully this involves close consultation between FIA and Ferrari to coincide with what Ferrari are working on and what will hurt Merc the most. Whilst at it as Ferrari had to change engines last race due to huge failure in practice a RELIABILITY upgrade on the engine should be allowed.

[aroutis]

Tracing point :rotfl

Trashing point :P

[aroutis]

On top of this engine brilliance I hold Ferrari responsible for (finally showing who the political daddy is) there will be as yet unspecified aero changes for 2021. Hopefully this involves close consultation between FIA and Ferrari to coincide with what Ferrari are working on and what will hurt Merc the most. Whilst at it as Ferrari had to change engines last race due to huge failure in practice a RELIABILITY upgrade on the engine should be allowed.

Maybe this is where Rory Byrne coming in play?

[jgonzalesm6]

The best part of all of this is reading all of the comments on Twitter etc from the Hamilton fanboys. They are all loosing their minds about this engine mapping. Crying that this is all to help Ferrari; meanwhile RedBull is their closest competitor and who they should worry about.

If your boy Hamilton is so great, why are you worried? Shouldn't he win no matter what due to his greatness? Lol

It would be nice to believe that this will close the field up and slow down merc. In reality, their engine is so powerful that it probably won’t affect them as they have so much power in reserve.

The FIA put restrictions on Ferrari in the early 2000's........tit-for-tat. Nuff said.

[Silent Bob]

Looks like Merc ready to sign Concorde agreement now. Wolf said they changed their mind.

[JPZ]

Looks like Merc ready to sign Concorde agreement now. Wolf said they changed their mind.

What issues did they have with it?

[aroutis]

According to people I know close to things they wanted to pass a clause that if they left f1 before the end of the contract they could do so without getting fined

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

[330 p4]

Notice Grosjeans pace today then had a loss of power. I think this is part of a play for a reliability upgrade. You cannot improve the engine with reliability upgrades but depends how hard you run the engine, run it hard with more performance then when breaks you can work to make it reliable at that level hence in reality a performance upgrade. Seeing Vettels engine in practice, the speed of Grosjean today and issues both times I think Ferrari are building the case.

[Kyss4k]

Notice Grosjeans pace today then had a loss of power. I think this is part of a play for a reliability upgrade. You cannot improve the engine with reliability upgrades but depends how hard you run the engine, run it hard with more performance then when breaks you can work to make it reliable at that level hence in reality a performance upgrade. Seeing Vettels engine in practice, the speed of Grosjean today and issues both times I think Ferrari are building the case.

Don't get your hopes up. I am sure, if we tried to do it this way, people (Mercedes, Red Bull) would immediately notice and posted a complain to FIA which would destroyed us again.

[paolo lalli]

Fia has realised that this whole hybrid era is a fiasco.It was orchestrated by some one in the fia that gave Mercedes the heads up well in advance of every body else.Some 2 year advantage that's cheating.What a shambolic sport it has become.The true impact of this totally flawed era is now on display.The fia are panicking liberty media are on there knees something had to give,other wise we are whitnessing the death of f1.All of the mercedes titles are tinted with bad fia blood they are hollow victories and 2 chains Hamilton is part of it.He is way overated and his victories have been both politically and fia inspired.I want to see a fair completion for all.

[From Treviso]

If anyone knows anything about engine combustion, you will know that at any time you try to increase persormance, either by more turbo boost or altered ignition mapping, that you need to also increase the supply of fuel, whether it is from the injectors or from other means. If you increase boost without the extra supply of fuel, then serious detonation will occur, resulting in catstrophic piston failure. Either Ferrari was the only one exceeding fuel supply, or is now the only one not exceeding the supply limits. Time will tell.

[458 Italia]

If anyone knows anything about engine combustion, you will know that at any time you try to increase persormance, either by more turbo boost or altered ignition mapping, that you need to also increase the supply of fuel, whether it is from the injectors or from other means. If you increase boost without the extra supply of fuel, then serious detonation will occur, resulting in catstrophic piston failure. Either Ferrari was the only one exceeding fuel supply, or is now the only one not exceeding the supply limits. Time will tell.

Good post :thumb

Makes me think if mercedes have been able to exploit a lean fuel mixture somehow :Hmm

[enjaybel3]

...at any time you try to increase persormance, either by more turbo boost or altered ignition mapping, that you need to also increase the supply of fuel...
Not technically correct. You could increase the % of energy released from the same amount fuel. Way easier said than done, but technically possible because E and M are equivalent.

[From Treviso]

Not technically correct. You could increase the % of energy released from the same amount fuel. Way easier said than done, but technically possible because E and M are equivalent.

if that's the case, then you could do so the entire race. I stand by my post.

[SS454]

if that's the case, then you could do so the entire race. I stand by my post.

enjaybel3 is correct. You can increase the efficiency of the engine, make more power, and in fact reduce amount of fuel required. This is usually measured by the BSFC on any generic engine dyno.

Having said that, I do agree that you can only get so much power out a maximum amount of usable fuel. As teams like Mercedes strives to increase the thermal efficiency of their engine, I have to believe their improvements are measured in very small percentages. Since 2016 they have gained like 150 horsepower? Of course there is also the electric power. Theoretically they could see significant gains in "power" by how they deploy their electric energy, and it should cost them no more, or less fuel than by just using the ICE.

To me, for Mercedes to have such a massive advantage all these years (except when Ferrari "cheated"), they would have to be either using more fuel than allowed, more peak electric power than allowed, or more energy per lap than is allowed.

[From Treviso]

we're not talking about engine efficiency, but just that moment of where it is creating more power. From the ICE itself, how can you suddenly increase performace over the normal running modes without more fuel supply? How do you suddenly increase an engine's efficiency? If it's just efficiency, then why not use that all the time?

The talk about harnessing kinetic and heat energy and deploying it is another subject altogether.

[JHAMMER]

Because THEY are the FIA. They are telling Mercedes to have just 1 mode instead of several.

Why did FIA allowed party mode in the first place?
That's part of the reason they got rid of qualifying engines.
Cost the other.

[SS454]

Why did FIA allowed party mode in the first place?
That's part of the reason they got rid of qualifying engines.
Cost the other.

Teams have been using qualifying modes for decades. Even the naturally aspirated engines had them with different engine map settings or higher RPM's if applicable.

[SS454]

we're not talking about engine efficiency, but just that moment of where it is creating more power. From the ICE itself, how can you suddenly increase performace over the normal running modes without more fuel supply? How do you suddenly increase an engine's efficiency? If it's just efficiency, then why not use that all the time?

The talk about harnessing kinetic and heat energy and deploying it is another subject altogether.

most of the "party mode" comes from the electric power as that mode doesn't do much harvesting, instead it's to deliver max power and drain the battery. This wouldn't use more fuel.

In race and Q1 a team like Mercedes can reduce the turbo boost and save fuel and put less strain on the engine. Who's to say their max boost setting only uses 100 kg/hr of fuel. I just think it's tough to believe that Mercedes can make so much more power over their competition without using more fuel.

[paolo lalli]

Never ever should any form of power mode party mode or Hamilton mode ever been allowed in this already confused messed up sport.There are to many drop kicks on the outside that have influenced the fia for the past number of years.Its time the fia clawed back power and punted these side kicks permanently.Fi should be pure no gimmicks or tricks if you want them go and join a circus and leave f1 permanently.

[tifosi1993]

The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.

[SS454]

The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.

@10:28 they talk about party mode, stating it's more to do with how they use the electric power. No doubt the ICE's are turned to the max though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwwUOYTbyfs&t=658s

I think Red Bull are good at Mexico because of the efficiency of their aerodynamics. It's not about Honda since they were very strong in 2015 and 2016, and won in 2017 and 2018. All with Renault Power.

[ferras]

The party mode comes from by running the ICE at its maximum fuel flow and RPM range. Q3 mode is all about peak power, and this is the only time when the ICE runs at its absolute peak power. That is how Mercedes pulls 8 tenths in Q3, compared to Q2.

Race mode is all about MGU-K and MGU-H, and the ICE stays pretty much at a "sleeping" mode. That is why the Red Bull is so much better than the rest at high altitude races. In a F1 V6, the fuel-air mixture inside the cylinders is more homogenous than it has ever been. But with thinner air at high altitude, the engine can't put out it's optimal power so it loses efficiency. But Honda probably has the best electrical components, that is why Red Bull is so much stronger in Mexico or Brazil during the race day.

RBR were good in Mexico with Renault as well.

[Silent Bob]

Mexico is high altitude which means less dense air getting into the engine. It makes more efficient engines lose more power than less efficient ones. Not so much an effect with turbos.

[jgonzalesm6]

Not so much an effect with turbos.

Less dense air not having an effect on turbo's??? ummmm, yes it does.

[SS454]

Less dense air not having an effect on turbo's??? ummmm, yes it does.

I think he is saying boosted engines don't get affected by altitude as much as naturally aspirated engines, which is true.

[jgonzalesm6]

I think he is saying boosted engines don't get affected by altitude as much as naturally aspirated engines, which is true.

So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?

[Silent Bob]

So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?

No. But because the air is compressed by the turbo, they don't necessarily lose as much power as a NA engine would that relies on engine vacuum and some ram air effect to fill its cylinders.

[jgonzalesm6]

No. .

k....

[SS454]

So let me get this straight. In a higher altitude track, like Mexico, the turbo works the same as a track at sea level by providing the engine with the same ambient air into the air at higher alttude and at sea level?

I didn't say that it doesn't lose power, and neither did Silent Bob. We are saying it doesn't have the same % of loss power as naturally aspirated engines.

[jgonzalesm6]

I didn't say that it doesn't lose power, and neither did Silent Bob. We are saying it doesn't have the same % of loss power as naturally aspirated engines.

copy that.

[enjaybel3]

Not technically correct. You could increase the % of energy released from the same amount fuel. Way easier said than done, but technically possible because E and M are equivalent.
if that's the case, then you could do so the entire race. I stand by my post.

Technically we don't even begin to scratch the surface of releasing energy from matter. Our best achievements are in the nuclear arena where we have less than 1% success.
To put this another way, in 100Kg of fuel from one F1 car, IF we could realize all that energy, you could run every car on the grid this year, non-stop, producing 1000HP for over 15,000 years. Now, if that seems a little hard to accept, then don't argue with me, take it up with Mr Einstein and his e=mc2 :-)

[SS454]

Did anyone find it odd how Hamilton stormed passed other cars on the straight with very little effort, while Bottas couldn't even get close enough for an attempt?

- Both Mercedes were pulling out into clean air to cool the engine, so it wasn't simply Bottas having issues.
- Mercedes showed to be relatively slow in ultimate top speed, yet Hamilton was able have the entire straightline speed advantage over Kvyat after the first chicane, even with taking the outside longer line around.
- Had no issues passing other Mercedes powered cars
- Renault was very fast on the straights, but he had very little issues passing Ocon.

One can't just say that Hamilton was using more battery energy at this point, as the other drivers would surely be using the most they could to defend. Plus for Hamilton to use this amount of extra energy EVERY single lap would result in him draining the batteries and suffering for several laps afterwards. That simply did not happen.

With party mode's being gone, Hamilton would not have been allowed to turn the engine up.

Laptime advantage I can understand, but not the sudden straightline advantage that didn't exist all day, and it was like Bottas had a completely different engine/car.