HONDA exit. Will FERRARI supply RBR?

[Stormsearcher]

With honda announcing their exit, RBR are screwed. They burnt their bridges with Renault. Merc is unlikely to supply them with engines.
Will Ferrari take the step? Afterall, we get more testing data and can improve at a greater pace.
Flip side is, RBR might end up beating us with better Aero.

Or are we looking at cosworth/porsche/audi etc stepping into F1?

[Stormsearcher]

sorry. didnt see the discussion already on in another thread. This thread needs to be deleted.

[MSC Fan]

Renault will be forced to supply engines even if they wouldn't want to because the regulations say so.

[Ferrarichamp]

why are Honda leaving?

[Stormsearcher]

why are Honda leaving?

GP2 engline. :rotfl

[Ferrarichamp]

they haven't given themselves much time, were they expecting to win titles right away? anyway I see it as a loss because we will be limited to 3 engine manufacturers, all European, so hardly a 'global sport'.

[nani_s23]

Renault will be forced to supply engines even if they wouldn't want to because the regulations say so.

Yup......again how they treat them is also important. Anyways max will exit in 2021 & jump either into Mercs/Renault.

[chinmay]

Ferrari is already supplying engines to 2 teams, as per rules they can supply to 1 more. Alpha Tauri Ferrari could happen but Red Bull Renault will definitely happen.

[chinmay]

why are Honda leaving?

They thought they could win, after 6 years realized that they can beat any other company but Mercedes in engine development. This is why new companies don't come in, all of them are too afraid of getting their _ handed to them by Mercedes on a global public scale regularly. As Wolff would say "Just wanted to properly rub it in".

[jgonzalesm6]

why are Honda leaving?

They want to pursue EV's.

They want to move away from petrol engines and be carbon free.

[330 p4]

That's it, they should change rules to 3.0 litre v12's. Ferrari would go with this, no manufacturers would touch F1 engines but specialists would, Cosworth, Gibson etc. Relativley simple, powerful sound great, relativley low costs. No mincing around with hybrid rubbish.

[chinmay]

That's it, they should change rules to 3.0 litre v12's. Ferrari would go with this, no manufacturers would touch F1 engines but specialists would, Cosworth, Gibson etc. Relativley simple, powerful sound great, relativley low costs. No mincing around with hybrid rubbish.

Yes, switch to the old engines and treat F1 like a sport because it is a sport. This ain't a road car programme.

[MSC Fan]

That's it, they should change rules to 3.0 litre v12's. Ferrari would go with this, no manufacturers would touch F1 engines but specialists would, Cosworth, Gibson etc. Relativley simple, powerful sound great, relativley low costs. No mincing around with hybrid rubbish.

It is either this or going too futuristic and into hydrogen fuel. Going futuristic will attract manufacturers who will leave the second they know someone else has a better programme/a series which is more promising comes up. Just going in for the actual racing beasts will attract a tonne of privateers but odds are they all could be rather uncompetitive in the beginning.

I think, the best way to go is to be intermediate between both and simply get rid of rules forcing a single type of engine on all teams. Let's say one of the VW brands enter F1, the best way to prove their product is to outpace old and conventional combustion engine cars which would just provide more advertising than anything else Formula E has to offer. This could also throw open the door for privateers who could make loopholes and bring in further innovations.

[330 p4]

It is either this or going too futuristic and into hydrogen fuel. Going futuristic will attract manufacturers who will leave the second they know someone else has a better programme/a series which is more promising comes up. Just going in for the actual racing beasts will attract a tonne of privateers but odds are they all could be rather uncompetitive in the beginning.

I think, the best way to go is to be intermediate between both and simply get rid of rules forcing a single type of engine on all teams. Let's say one of the VW brands enter F1, the best way to prove their product is to outpace old and conventional combustion engine cars which would just provide more advertising than anything else Formula E has to offer. This could also throw open the door for privateers who could make loopholes and bring in further innovations.

Good but then comes accusations of rules favouring one type of technology to push an industry agenda much like the advantageous LeMans rules for diesel a while back. Reason I say V12 and add to this limit ECU, materials is it's an old technology, little research needed to get to a base point. Cost cap engines, limit materials, no direct injection, common ECU, it would be close. Look at the Cosworth roadcar engines for Aston Valkrie and Murray supercar, it's for a different market but surpasses Ferraris V12 road engines in many aspects. Manufacturers can go and play with their batteries.

[paolo lalli]

Just another nail in the f1 coffin.Why should Honda keep flogging a dead horse.Thanks fia you twisted ill influenced fools.The mercedes hybrid era is as hollow as it comes in every aspect and all titles are filled with emptiness consisting of manipulation and cohesion its right up there with wiki leaks.

[JPZ]

Just another nail in the f1 coffin.Why should Honda keep flogging a dead horse.Thanks fia you twisted ill influenced fools.The mercedes hybrid era is as hollow as it comes in every aspect and all titles are filled with emptiness consisting of manipulation and cohesion its right up there with wiki leaks.

And any potential new F1 teams need to pay an entry fee of $ 200 million. So much for cost-cutting and attracting smaller teams and I doubt even major manufacturers will want to pay this.

[JPZ]

That's it, they should change rules to 3.0 litre v12's. Ferrari would go with this, no manufacturers would touch F1 engines but specialists would, Cosworth, Gibson etc. Relativley simple, powerful sound great, relativley low costs. No mincing around with hybrid rubbish.

Or like in the past, allow V8, V10 or V12 engines with varying angles from almost flat to 70 degrees. This will add variety as the cars will handle a lot more differently and have different pros and cons in terms of power. And as you say, far more easy for manufacturers to enter.

[FerrariF60]

GP2 engline. :rotfl

It’s far better than the ferrari this year, NO?

[aroutis]

They want to pursue EV's.

They want to move away from petrol engines and be carbon free.That may be an excuse. Mercedes also wants to move away from petrol. Do they move away from F1 ?
The real reason is that they felt this year would be their year and they saw a complete dominance of Mercedes along with what happened with DAS and the Aston Martin scandal and the writing was on the wall. Merc as it stands and namely Toto Wolff runs the show. So they just chose to leave.

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[MSC Fan]

That may be an excuse. Mercedes also wants to move away from petrol. Do they move away from F1 ?
The real reason is that they felt this year would be their year and they saw a complete dominance of Mercedes along with what happened with DAS and the Aston Martin scandal and the writing was on the wall. Merc as it stands and namely Toto Wolff runs the show. So they just chose to leave.

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The only reason Mercedes isn't leaving is because they're winning. The second someone else holds the title and they prove to be competitive enough in Formula E, they'll just call it a day.

[aroutis]

Why would merc leave when they made it possible to control the pinnacle of motorsport ?

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[MSC Fan]

Why would merc leave when they made it possible to control the pinnacle of motorsport ?

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Because F1 is a sinking ship and it won't be the pinnacle of motorsport in the long term.

[jgonzalesm6]

That may be an excuse. Mercedes also wants to move away from petrol. Do they move away from F1 ?
The real reason is that they felt this year would be their year and they saw a complete dominance of Mercedes along with what happened with DAS and the Aston Martin scandal and the writing was on the wall. Merc as it stands and namely Toto Wolff runs the show. So they just chose to leave.

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[bold area] Maybe. Honda currently has lost 46% of sales globally when compared to same time last year due to COVID-19 and the quest to move resources to EV's is probably an excuse.

Honda is not leaving due to Mercedes dominance.

[aroutis]

They are not the only ones with loss of income and I would add to that that f1 marketing in this case would help them recover.
But that is only me.

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[jgonzalesm6]

That's it, they should change rules to 3.0 litre v12's. Ferrari would go with this, no manufacturers would touch F1 engines but specialists would, Cosworth, Gibson etc. Relativley simple, powerful sound great, relativley low costs. No mincing around with hybrid rubbish.


Good but then comes accusations of rules favouring one type of technology to push an industry agenda much like the advantageous LeMans rules for diesel a while back. Reason I say V12 and add to this limit ECU, materials is it's an old technology, little research needed to get to a base point. Cost cap engines, limit materials, no direct injection, common ECU, it would be close. Look at the Cosworth roadcar engines for Aston Valkrie and Murray supercar, it's for a different market but surpasses Ferraris V12 road engines in many aspects. Manufacturers can go and play with their batteries.

I like your ideas.

F1 was and is at a crossroad's of whether to attract more OEM's or keep the formula simple and gain more "garagista's" and/or engine builders as well like Judd, Cosworth, and so forth.

I love the V-10's but the V-8's with KERS was acceptable to me. This whole hybrid tech. is a joke and a waste of money. It definitely benefited Mercedes.

[Brembo]

The FIA does all it can for Merc with hybd. tech. and so on. Meanwhile Lewis says the FIA is out to hold him back . That 10 sec penalty and trying to add 2 pts. more to his License penalties sure looks like he's right.

[tifosi1993]

Renault is the most sensible option for Red Bull, both from rules and sporting standpoint. But the "reunion" is going to be awkward for both parties.

To me, the real question is, will Red Bull continue in F1 after 2021? They will definitely lose Max to Mercedes. And before anyone says, yes I know Red Bull has signed to stay in F1 until 2025. But there is an exit clause, they can legally leave after 2021.

[FerrariF60]

Renault is the most sensible option for Red Bull, both from rules and sporting standpoint. But the "reunion" is going to be awkward for both parties.

To me, the real question is, will Red Bull continue in F1 after 2021? They will definitely lose Max to Mercedes. And before anyone says, yes I know Red Bull has signed to stay in F1 until 2025. But there is an exit clause, they can legally leave after 2021.

Just a thought....
Why can’t red fools buy the blue prints from Honda, and then try to perfect the already good power unit Honda has??.

Sure it’s gonna be a lot cheaper than having them design their own engine from scratch....aferall, if they are for the long run in F1, this is the perfect scenario for them to take over the Honda power unit....i mean they have a boatload of money

Is that even a possibility for them to do such thing?? I mean legally....

[jgonzalesm6]

Just a thought....
Why can’t red fools buy the blue prints from Honda, and then try to perfect the already good power unit Honda has??.

Sure it’s gonna be a lot cheaper than having them design their own engine from scratch....aferall, if they are for the long run in F1, this is the perfect scenario for them to take over the Honda power unit....i mean they have a boatload of money

Is that even a possibility for them to do such thing?? I mean legally....

RedBull will never build or even take on the responsibility of maintianing and upgrading an F1 PU. Look at Mclaren in F1 and in their road cars.

Also, in 2026, a new formula will be introduced.

[Redfive]

They want to pursue EV's.

They want to move away from petrol engines and be carbon free.

Strange as they just signed a multiyear contract with indycar.

[Redfive]

The FIA does all it can for Merc with hybd. tech. and so on. Meanwhile Lewis says the FIA is out to hold him back . That 10 sec penalty and trying to add 2 pts. more to his License penalties sure looks like he's right.

Looks like the opposite to me, it was originally 4 penalty points but when they realised that would mean a ban they knocked them down to 2 and then later removed them all.

[jgonzalesm6]

Strange as they just signed a multiyear contract with indycar.

Saw that...along with Chevy. It's a cheaper formula when compared to F1.

[Brembo]

Looks like the opposite to me, it was originally 4 penalty points but when they realised that would mean a ban they knocked them down to 2 and then later removed them all.

No one in F-1 agreed with the penalty points 4 or 2. Max & Seb were very outspoken against the FIA decision thinking they could be nest I imagine. It's possible the FIA wants to tell Lewis in a round about way to chill out with the political actions and just stick with the sport or else! That may be what they want to hold him back from.

[aroutis]

Saw that...along with Chevy. It's a cheaper formula when compared to F1.What does that have to do with them want to move away from a certain tech ?

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[MSC Fan]

What does that have to do with them want to move away from a certain tech ?

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The new engines for Indy are just boiled down and simpler versions of the engines we have now.

[aroutis]

No one in F-1 agreed with the penalty points 4 or 2. Max & Seb were very outspoken against the FIA decision thinking they could be nest I imagine. It's possible the FIA wants to tell Lewis in a round about way to chill out with the political actions and just stick with the sport or else! That may be what they want to hold him back from.I guess they are out to get him lol

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[hakanabi]

Honda is only quitting as they now have also realised that there is no way they can compete amd match Mercedes engines. They know now that Mercedes has so much more power in reserve and they simply cant catch them. Given the fact that these current engines are so expensive and also will continue to run until the end of 2025 season if I am not mistaken.

[hakanabi]

I still don't think they are running their engines in full power. They have been toying with rest of the grid for years. It's killing F1. No other team has had so much dominance this far before and they will continue their dominance by the looks of it. I used to love this sport so much but now it has become so predictable, I have not watched a single race over a year an half and I dont think I will do for a while as there is no competition out there. Hamilton is only racing himself, not even his team mate there to challenge him.

[hakanabi]

Even back then, early 2000's where Ferrari dominated the sport, there was a competition back then. Right now there is none of that at all. They better change the rules ASAP or there wont be an F1 unfortunately.

[FerrariF60]

I still don't think they are running their engines in full power. They have been toying with rest of the grid for years. It's killing F1. No other team has had so much dominance this far before and they will continue their dominance by the looks of it. I used to love this sport so much but now it has become so predictable, I have not watched a single race over a year an half and I dont think I will do for a while as there is no competition out there. Hamilton is only racing himself, not even his team mate there to challenge him.

I’d have to disagree with you. Merc we’re running them at full power last year and had a absolutely NO answer to 2019 ferrari engine(mind you we were bending the rules and using more fuel),

So ferrari was the only eng. manufacturer that actually beat them and Wolf was shitting his pants and panicked and that’s how we got caught.

So deep down I think Merc has to do something along the lines of what we were doing or burning some oil still, more then what is allowed....at least that is my opinion on this

[Brembo]

I guess they are out to get him lol

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$pts. on his license and 10 second back on the race is equal to a guilty with a hanging if it went trough! The FIA needs to stop and realize in 3yrs. and 6 more races this season Lewis' records to break will be in the 100s. The young drivers have something to work for! It's good for the fans . I'm sure we all agree records are made to be broken. Even F-E has Merc 2nd. &11th. in the standings. The FIA is in utter confusion as to what to do!

[MSC Fan]

I wonder if Renault will pull out too if Alpine isn't a top team in 2022.

[Silent Bob]

I agree that F1 needs to make changes. F1 calls itself the pinnacle of motorsport, why it needs it's engines to mimic the real world, I have no idea. The rest of the car doesn't. Let's go back to very simple V8 engines, if they want hybrids, go back to KERS. It was simple, probably pretty cheap and very reliable. And they still sounded pretty good. The tech to make these engine and battery packs efficient can still translate to road cars, but I don't think that should be the reasoning behind the power units. This is a sport, so let's make it as exciting as possible. I would love to see 5-6 different engines back in F1.

[WS6TransAm01]

They want to pursue EV's.

They want to move away from petrol engines and be carbon free.

That's hysterical, because the mining and refining of metals for batteries is carbon free? Or is the production of electricity?

Sounds like a dumb excuse. They were finally achieving some success. Oh well.

[jgonzalesm6]

Honda open to facilitating Red Bull engine project post-2021

Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams.

A return to Renault has been mooted as the simplest outcome given the lack of alternative manufacturers and FIA rules that would force Red Bull’s former engine partner to agree a deal if necessary.


However, the sour nature of that relationship’s demise and Red Bull’s desire not to be relegated to engine customer status makes it unlikely to be the team’s first priority.

“As Honda we had so many things from the teams, so we want to give it back somehow in a nice way for the future”
- Masahi Yamamoto

One alternative, which would likely require significant Red Bull commitment as well as agreement from all parties, is for Red Bull to assume Honda’s intellectual property and create a continuation programme for its engines, potentially with additional technical support from another partner.

The Race understands no such request has been made but Honda is willing to consider it as it wishes to make its exit as painless as possible, especially as Red Bull Racing and AlphaTauri helped make it an F1 winner again after three hard years with McLaren.

Honda F1 managing director Masashi Yamamoto told The Race: “Honda is happy to talk to them if they need us in any way, not only about the power unit but about other things as well.

“To support AlphaTauri and Red Bull for their programme after 2021 in any way, we’re happy to cooperate.

“As Honda we had so many things from the teams, so we want to give it back somehow in a nice way for the future.”

Asked if there is a limit to how Honda would be willing to help and if it that would stop a potential continuation project using Honda’s technology, Yamamoto said: “If that kind of request is made from the team, I am ready to speak to Japan.

“I personally want to support [what Red Bull and AlphaTauri do] as much as possible.”

Creating the infrastructure required to take over development of Honda’s engine would be a significant undertaking by Red Bull.

However, it has grown its facility at Milton Keynes, has major technical resources and partners, and could use it to redistribute some staff given the incoming budget cap in 2021 will force it to scale back its race team.

Building its own engine in the short-term is not possible for Red Bull but it may consider a rebadged continuation project realistic and preferable to becoming a customer again.

Honda started its Red Bull relationship in 2018 with the then-Toro Rosso junior team, as a precursor to a potential partnership with the senior outfit

Red Bull was convinced early in the season to make the switch from Renault, with Honda dedicating resources to giving both the teams equal treatment as its de facto work outfits.

“However in the future, Red Bull and AlphaTauri may not have that kind of situation with other parties,” Yamamoto acknowledged.

“So, we want to support and help them in whatever way we can help them for the future.”

“For next year, we will not reduce any people from our project. We will make the biggest effort in order to win as much as possible”
- Masahi Yamamoto


Honda extended its agreement with Red Bull at the end of 2019 to include the 2021 season.

The manufacturer is therefore committed to seeing out that deal rather than undertaking a rapid exit when this season is over, which gives Red Bull more time to establish what it does for its two teams.

Yamamoto said it has been a “frustrating” experience for himself and Honda CEO Takahiro Hachigo, who announced the company’s exit last Friday, as they wanted to keep the F1 programme going but had to respect the realities Honda is facing as an automotive company.

He said it was also “uncomfortable” because of the impact it had on two teams and F1 if those teams could not find a competitive solution, reiterating Honda’s desire to help ease the consequences of its exit.

“Our aim is now to exit the sport without making big [negative] changes in the sport,” he said. “That’s our target.”

Honda has promised to develop a new engine for 2021 without reducing its commitment, to try to sign off with a world championship challenge.

Though Red Bull and AlphaTauri have now both won with Honda, making it the only manufacturer to win with two teams in the V6 turbo-hybrid era, this season has not met expectations of a title assault.

However, Red Bull is optimistic it may be able to challenge Mercedes next season, something Honda insists it will be dedicated to trying to achieve as well.

“We still have seven more races to go this year first and we have various things we like to try for next year as well,” said Yamamoto.

“Next year we will try to fight for the championship and have a good ending to our story.

“For next year, we will not reduce any people from our project. We are going to develop more. And we will make the biggest effort in order to win as much as possible.

“We will just keep pushing till the end.”

https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-open-to-facilitating-red-bull-engine-project-post-2021/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=SocialSnap

[330 p4]

That's hysterical, because the mining and refining of metals for batteries is carbon free? Or is the production of electricity?

Sounds like a dumb excuse. They were finally achieving some success. Oh well.

And if every car was replaced with battery cars we only have 17 years supply of Lithium. Battery cars are nothing more than what steam powered cars were, the true future is hydrogen fuel cells but does not fit the current narrative as will take decades to be truly viable. 3.0 V12's needed for F1 and to make even lower cost no fuel injection they can use carburettors. Remember petrol is a renuable fuel it just takes a while.

[Silent Bob]

I really doubt they would go back to V12 with carbs. I'd bet V8's would be the best bet after sticking with a simpler version of the turbo v6's we have now. As for fuel, they can use bio fuels to make people feel better.