Mid-season rule change [Archive] - TheScuderia.net

SS454

4th July 2022, 08:33

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-flexi-floor-exploit-revelations-a-shocker-says-mercedes/10332153/

Thanks

I felt that Red Bull have had a clever flexy floor since the start of the season. I think this also stalls out their diffuser which reduces drag and would explain why their speed keeps climbing above 300 kph, and other teams seem to plateau.

Aziz

4th July 2022, 08:38

Thanks

I felt that Red Bull have had a clever flexy floor since the start of the season. I think this also stalls out their diffuser which reduces drag and would explain why their speed keeps climbing above 300 kph, and other teams seem to plateau.

the thing i would like to know is when will we have the new suspension that will solve our porpoising.

I truly believe we will be the fastest car once we solve it

RossTheBoss

4th July 2022, 08:53

Thanks

I felt that Red Bull have had a clever flexy floor since the start of the season. I think this also stalls out their diffuser which reduces drag and would explain why their speed keeps climbing above 300 kph, and other teams seem to plateau.
The floors are very complex and the downforce is generated by more than just a little cheap trick. This reminds me of Mercedes thinking Red Bull's pace over them was down to the slight flex in their wing, and then after the TD was enforced, Red Bull won 3 races in a row.

Ferrari weren't concerned about the TD focus on floors, but on the the governing of how far a car can or can't oscillate, before the FIA judging it to be "dangerous".

RossTheBoss

4th July 2022, 11:07

We just don't know how or if this even gives much of a performance advantage. We also don't know what teams were actually found to be doing this, as the FIA didn't reveal them for some odd reason. For all we know Alpine/Renault are doing it. You also can't put it past Toto and Mercedes to have not being this themselves, and are trying to cover by being first to comment.

Usually, small things like this don't give a huge performance advantage to one car that can't be accounted for with a setup to keep them competitive.

That being said, I'd expect Red Bull to be the most affected IF this accurate. I've always wondered where Red Bull get their straight line speed from, and why they don't porpoise on the straight. If we either see Red Bull magically begin to porpoise for the first time since testing, or they suddenly lack straight line speed, that will be a "guilty as charged" performance.

Aziz

4th July 2022, 13:09

ferrari1.8t

4th July 2022, 14:07

Red Bull to be the most affected would be most welcomed

Your attitude will definitely change once both Red Bull and Mercedes are beating us. These mid-season rule changes always benefit Mercedes and Hamilton. Toto is a scumbag, as crooked as they come. It makes me sick to my stomach the control he has on the FIA. The amount of pace Mercedes suddenly found after being 1.5 seconds adrift all season is astonishing. The fact that other teams aren't questioning them is even more concerning. It will be a slap in the face to the entire F1 community if Hamilton and Russell start winning races.

Before all the closet Hamilton lovers go off on me, just think about the outrage and "cheat" cries from all the other teams if Ferrari suddenly found 1.5 seconds of pace and miraculously stopped bouncing.

evo_spook

4th July 2022, 15:06

Your attitude will definitely change once both Red Bull and Mercedes are beating us. These mid-season rule changes always benefit Mercedes and Hamilton. Toto is a scumbag, as crooked as they come. It makes me sick to my stomach the control he has on the FIA. The amount of pace Mercedes suddenly found after being 1.5 seconds adrift all season is astonishing. The fact that other teams aren't questioning them is even more concerning. It will be a slap in the face to the entire F1 community if Hamilton and Russell start winning races.

Before all the closet Hamilton lovers go off on me, just think about the outrage and "cheat" cries from all the other teams if Ferrari suddenly found 1.5 seconds of pace and miraculously stopped bouncing.

THERE IS NO MID SEASON RULE CHANGE
the rule exists already but some teams are bypassing the test.

Nothing to do with Merc if teams are cheating.
So it is Tota crooked, not the actual teams that ar ebreaking the rules, seriously, how old are you.

What would be a slap in the face if Merc start winning is that illegal cars have being winning GPs by cheating.

ferrari1.8t

4th July 2022, 15:23

THERE IS NO MID SEASON RULE CHANGE
the rule exists already but some teams are bypassing the test.

Nothing to do with Merc if teams are cheating.
So it is Tota crooked, not the actual teams that ar ebreaking the rules, seriously, how old are you.

What would be a slap in the face if Merc start winning is that illegal cars have being winning GPs by cheating.

So Merc/Toto didn’t lobby the fia for a ride height change? They didn’t have a repair for the TD made even before the TD was announced? They went from writing off the season to contending for wins. Crooked cheats.

wisepie

5th July 2022, 12:39

I've just read that Ferrari and Red Bull are the two teams most likely to suffer with this new directive, having more than the permitted 2mm floor deflection under the drivers. Wolff finds it 'shocking', wonder how this directive came about......:-E

Aziz

5th July 2022, 12:44

FerrariF60

5th July 2022, 13:03

we shall see, but my money is on RB, they will suffer the most

I too think that REd fools will be affected the most, as they are doing something sneaky there with the floor, probably stalling the diffuser so they get higher top end speed...

Probably Ferrari will also be affected but not to the extent red fools will be....just my opinion

I’m sure Toto and Co. had some say in this as they couldn’t reproduce what RB and Ferrari were doing....bunch of hypocrites they are

458 Italia

5th July 2022, 15:49

Wolf runs the show and pulls the strings.

ferrari1.8t

6th July 2022, 01:05

Wolf runs the show and pulls the strings.

He and Merc have for the last 8 years and looks like there is no stopping him.

RossTheBoss

6th July 2022, 02:49

He and Merc have for the last 8 years and looks like there is no stopping him.
It's because Mercedes supply engines for 4 teams, pour tons of money into F1, and have it's most popular celebrity in Hamilton. FIA doesn't want that apple cart disrupted.

Ferrari don't throw their weight around enough. You can bet Di Montezemolo and Todt would've thrown down, and told the FIA that if they went through with trying to cripple their car midseason, they'd consider withdrawing from F1. Ask the FIA if they're ready to try and promote races without Ferrari, and to explain to the fans and networks where the red cars are.

nani_s23

6th July 2022, 08:19

It's because Mercedes supply engines for 4 teams, pour tons of money into F1, and have it's most popular celebrity in Hamilton. FIA doesn't want that apple cart disrupted.

Ferrari don't throw their weight around enough. You can bet Di Montezemolo and Todt would've thrown down, and told the FIA that if they went through with trying to cripple their car midseason, they'd consider withdrawing from F1. Ask the FIA if they're ready to try and promote races without Ferrari, and to explain to the fans and networks where the red cars are.

I would say current Ferrari management isn’t that strong to have their say as similar to Mercs & RB.

Remember RB pushed this rule change partially & engine freeze for which Ferrari agreed & merc was surprised.

RossTheBoss

6th July 2022, 13:02

I would say current Ferrari management isn’t that strong to have their say as similar to Mercs & RB.

Remember RB pushed this rule change partially & engine freeze for which Ferrari agreed & merc was surprised.
Ferrari always put the good of F1 above themselves. There's tons they've agreed to that they never should've.

One of the secrets to Ferrari's success was in season testing for their developmental work at their private tracks. The FIA banned it and Ferrari didn't rise up and say "NO! Not our problem if other teams don't have these facilities". They also allowed Renault and the VW group bully the sport not just towards turbo engines, but banning naturally aspirated ones, the latter of which Ferrari have a far deeper track record of success with.

Give Red Bull credit. They wanted a rule change and they made clear that if they didn't get it, they'd be gone from F1. They also took Mercedes dirty politics public and made sure the world saw the bias of the FIA towards Mercedes during the season, which helped prevent Masi from simply handing the title to Princess.

Mercedes have outright trashed the FIA, despite the latter allowing illegal components on their cars, special treatment for their drivers, and the behind the scenes corruption where things like illegal in season testing have happened. And need I remind everyone of how Mercedes bullied the FIA into sacking Masi, or else Princess wouldn't participate?

The point being, Ferrari have no idea how to play politics and get their way at least 50% of the time.

WS6TransAm01

6th July 2022, 19:48

Your attitude will definitely change once both Red Bull and Mercedes are beating us. These mid-season rule changes always benefit Mercedes and Hamilton. Toto is a scumbag, as crooked as they come. It makes me sick to my stomach the control he has on the FIA. The amount of pace Mercedes suddenly found after being 1.5 seconds adrift all season is astonishing. The fact that other teams aren't questioning them is even more concerning. It will be a slap in the face to the entire F1 community if Hamilton and Russell start winning races.

Before all the closet Hamilton lovers go off on me, just think about the outrage and "cheat" cries from all the other teams if Ferrari suddenly found 1.5 seconds of pace and miraculously stopped bouncing.

is he a scumbag, or is he just a ruthless leader who will do everything and anything he can in order to ensure his team wins... unlike the leader of the team we follow, for instance?

SS454

6th July 2022, 21:43

is he a scumbag, or is he just a ruthless leader who will do everything and anything he can in order to ensure his team wins... unlike the leader of the team we follow, for instance?

I tend to agree. I don't think Binotto is bad, but I would take Toto or Horner over him any day.

tpe

6th July 2022, 23:13

I don't care about the performance gains from Merc, but how they found a solution.
Under a cost cap.
And under strict (lol) CFD and aero-testing rules...

But yeah, I would be surprised if FIA didn't create a TD that creates problems to their competitors.

WS6TransAm01

6th July 2022, 23:25

I tend to agree. I don't think Binotto is bad, but I would take Toto or Horner over him any day.

A good leader is ruthless lest they be taken advantage of. Yes the FIA helped Merc win but it was because Toto is a savage. Ferrari need a leader like him. What they have is clearly not working. Do Ferrari still have Veto powers? If so, when was the last time it was used?

I don't care about the performance gains from Merc, but how they found a solution.
Under a cost cap.
And under strict (lol) CFD and aero-testing rules...

But yeah, I would be surprised if FIA didn't create a TD that creates problems to their competitors.

I’m willing to bet it’s incredibly easy to circumvent those two rules with subsidiaries and creative accounting. If you want to win, there is always a way.

ferrari1.8t

7th July 2022, 03:10

A good leader is ruthless lest they be taken advantage of. Yes the FIA helped Merc win but it was because Toto is a savage. Ferrari need a leader like him. What they have is clearly not working. Do Ferrari still have Veto powers? If so, when was the last time it was used?

I’m willing to bet it’s incredibly easy to circumvent those two rules with subsidiaries and creative accounting. If you want to win, there is always a way.

This I believe 100%! I think that Red Bull is being sneaky with the cost cap...they are likely using the RB17 Hypercar designed by Newey to develop the F1 car. No salary cap or cost cap issues working on a non-f1 car which just happens to have some of the same aero and ground effect properties as the current F1 regs. There is no other way they could keep developing at this rate under the current cap.

To bad Ferrari is still waiting for them to run out of money....

RossTheBoss

7th July 2022, 04:09

This I believe 100%! I think that Red Bull is being sneaky with the cost cap...they are likely using the RB17 Hypercar designed by Newey to develop the F1 car. No salary cap or cost cap issues working on a non-f1 car which just happens to have some of the same aero and ground effect properties as the current F1 regs. There is no other way they could keep developing at this rate under the current cap.

To bad Ferrari is still waiting for them to run out of money....
Honestly, it seems like Red Bull have finally the ceiling on development, and don't the money to do but a few more changes. Ferrari and Mercedes both brought far bigger upgrade packages then Red Bull, even though the latter was rumored to be bringing the final and biggest package.

Mercedes truly raise eyebrows with their "budget". B-car for testing and sidepod upgrades, 4 new rear wings, radiators, 3 new front wings, and 3 new floors to name just what we've seen. How in TF are they managing that kind of development? They should not be able to afford more upgrades, but you can be sure they'll keep bringing them.

WS6TransAm01

7th July 2022, 13:18

This I believe 100%! I think that Red Bull is being sneaky with the cost cap...they are likely using the RB17 Hypercar designed by Newey to develop the F1 car. No salary cap or cost cap issues working on a non-f1 car which just happens to have some of the same aero and ground effect properties as the current F1 regs. There is no other way they could keep developing at this rate under the current cap.

To bad Ferrari is still waiting for them to run out of money....

That is exactly what I suggested Ferrari do a few months ago.

Create a team within the road car division for some new hypercar. The "Uber Enzo", whatever the hell you wanna call it. Run the wind tunnel 24/7. The new Merc AMG One is going to have an F1 engine in it, detuned for road use. Do the same thing. The new Uber Enzo is going to have the 066/7 engine and hybrid drive system in it and we need to make it reliable for the street. Run that puppy on the dyno stand 24/7 as well. Then, like magic, a guy in the F1 Aero department gets an idea and it just so happens to work first time out. Oh, look, the new power unit has been updated for reliability and may or may not also have 15hp more. It's so damn easy it's not even funny, and anyone not doing this is a fool of the highest order.

Super M

7th July 2022, 13:48

That is exactly what I suggested Ferrari do a few months ago.

Create a team within the road car division for some new hypercar. The "Uber Enzo", whatever the hell you wanna call it. Run the wind tunnel 24/7. The new Merc AMG One is going to have an F1 engine in it, detuned for road use. Do the same thing. The new Uber Enzo is going to have the 066/7 engine and hybrid drive system in it and we need to make it reliable for the street. Run that puppy on the dyno stand 24/7 as well. Then, like magic, a guy in the F1 Aero department gets an idea and it just so happens to work first time out. Oh, look, the new power unit has been updated for reliability and may or may not also have 15hp more. It's so damn easy it's not even funny, and anyone not doing this is a fool of the highest order.

This very statement you're making was suggested by some of us ( including myself ) when they introduced the hybrid era. This to me made perfect sense. But then this never transpired. So it was left at that.

If what you're saying about RB & Mercs is true, then why not us too. We've developed this new beast of a Super car for Le mans, So why not ?

I do agree with you about what you said above :thumb

WS6TransAm01

7th July 2022, 15:03

This very statement you're making was suggested by some of us ( including myself ) when they introduced the hybrid era. This to me made perfect sense. But then this never transpired. So it was left at that.

If what you're saying about RB & Mercs is true, then why not us too. We've developed this new beast of a Super car for Le mans, So why not ?

I do agree with you about what you said above :thumb

If you want to win, you do what needs to be done. Ferrari's "leader" doesn't want to win, he just wants a participation trophy.

RossTheBoss

7th July 2022, 18:27

That is exactly what I suggested Ferrari do a few months ago.

Create a team within the road car division for some new hypercar. The "Uber Enzo", whatever the hell you wanna call it. Run the wind tunnel 24/7. The new Merc AMG One is going to have an F1 engine in it, detuned for road use. Do the same thing. The new Uber Enzo is going to have the 066/7 engine and hybrid drive system in it and we need to make it reliable for the street. Run that puppy on the dyno stand 24/7 as well. Then, like magic, a guy in the F1 Aero department gets an idea and it just so happens to work first time out. Oh, look, the new power unit has been updated for reliability and may or may not also have 15hp more. It's so damn easy it's not even funny, and anyone not doing this is a fool of the highest order.
Mercedes have also clearly cheated the cost cap, and you can bet nothing is going to be done. There will be no audit of them.

Anyways, one of the things Ferrari were stupid to ever agree to was the ban on in season testing. Totally killed their ability to develop. Ferrari have been mediocre at best when it comes to development with simulations, when compared to the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes. It's taken them until recently to get the hang of it. Before, they'd run a set of updates at the track and day and night and refine them, until they knew they were ready.

WS6TransAm01

7th July 2022, 19:45

Mercedes have also clearly cheated the cost cap, and you can bet nothing is going to be done. There will be no audit of them.

Anyways, one of the things Ferrari were stupid to ever agree to was the ban on in season testing. Totally killed their ability to develop. Ferrari have been mediocre at best when it comes to development with simulations, when compared to the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes. It's taken them until recently to get the hang of it. Before, they'd run a set of updates at the track and day and night and refine them, until they knew they were ready.

I never understood the "for the good of the sport" excuse every time Ferrari bent over and took it. Ferrari IS the sport. They had power, they should have wielded it like a damn broadsword and cut down anyone in their way. Instead they became timid mice. If you don't use it, you lose it, and they sure as hell lost it.

PURE PASSION

7th July 2022, 20:01

RossTheBoss

7th July 2022, 20:19

I never understood the "for the good of the sport" excuse every time Ferrari bent over and took it. Ferrari IS the sport. They had power, they should have wielded it like a damn broadsword and cut down anyone in their way. Instead they became timid mice. If you don't use it, you lose it, and they sure as hell lost it.
When is the last time Ferrari made a real demand? I can't recall. Red Bull to their credit, made a demand for an engine freeze, and they got it. They made serious threats to leave F1 if it didn't happen, and they worked like a charm.

Ferrari are 50% of the value of F1. They bring in the eye balls. They have the biggest fan base, the most iconic brand in racing. They pour tons of money and promotion into the sport, only to be made the villains because they dominated in the 2000's. Without Ferrari, millions of fans don't show up, half of the contracts are null and void, and the sport would crumble and go bankrupt with a season or two.

Honda and Toyota got crapped on by CART (Indycar) for changing rules constantly midseason. Audi got the same treatment from ALMS. They eventually got fed up, withdrew their cars and took the teams to other racing series, and the lights went out. It taught those leaders a hell of a lesson.

If Ferrari had any brains they'd use the leverage they have of being in LMDH and not needing F1 to get concessions for the latter.

WS6TransAm01

7th July 2022, 22:52

When is the last time Ferrari made a real demand? I can't recall. Red Bull to their credit, made a demand for an engine freeze, and they got it. They made serious threats to leave F1 if it didn't happen, and they worked like a charm.

Ferrari are 50% of the value of F1. They bring in the eye balls. They have the biggest fan base, the most iconic brand in racing. They pour tons of money and promotion into the sport, only to be made the villains because they dominated in the 2000's. Without Ferrari, millions of fans don't show up, half of the contracts are null and void, and the sport would crumble and go bankrupt with a season or two.

Honda and Toyota got crapped on by CART (Indycar) for changing rules constantly midseason. Audi got the same treatment from ALMS. They eventually got fed up, withdrew their cars and took the teams to other racing series, and the lights went out. It taught those leaders a hell of a lesson.

If Ferrari had any brains they'd use the leverage they have of being in LMDH and not needing F1 to get concessions for the latter.

It all boils down to leadership and having the fortitude to do it. Ferrari's leadership doesn't, and hasn't since Todd and Braun left. It's a sad state of affairs over there with no end in sight. They clearly improved the design department, but the leadership is only getting worse.

Greig

8th July 2022, 21:51

But despite Mercedes being so welcoming of the FIA's move, Verstappen has questioned the approach of his rival. He reckons that Mercedes is the team that has shown itself to have the most flexing floor this season. Speaking at the Red Bull Ring about Mercedes' support of the flexi-floor changes, Verstappen said: "Well, what I don't quite understand, is that they're complaining about the flexible floors while theirs is the most flexible."

nani_s23

9th July 2022, 05:56

:rotfl

Tifoso Svedese

9th July 2022, 12:55

When is the last time Ferrari made a real demand? I can't recall. Red Bull to their credit, made a demand for an engine freeze, and they got it. They made serious threats to leave F1 if it didn't happen, and they worked like a charm.

Ferrari are 50% of the value of F1. They bring in the eye balls. They have the biggest fan base, the most iconic brand in racing. They pour tons of money and promotion into the sport, only to be made the villains because they dominated in the 2000's. Without Ferrari, millions of fans don't show up, half of the contracts are null and void, and the sport would crumble and go bankrupt with a season or two.

Honda and Toyota got crapped on by CART (Indycar) for changing rules constantly midseason. Audi got the same treatment from ALMS. They eventually got fed up, withdrew their cars and took the teams to other racing series, and the lights went out. It taught those leaders a hell of a lesson.

If Ferrari had any brains they'd use the leverage they have of being in LMDH and not needing F1 to get concessions for the latter.

That was back in the Todt days. Since then it's all been about 'praise to our competitors', 'next year', 'for the good of the sport', 'we don't have a #1 driver', 'windtunnel correlation issues', 'technical directive' and bla, bla, bla.

If Ferrari had threatened to withdraw in 2019 over the engine stitch-up ran by Toto and Horner, things would've changed real fast.

SS454

10th July 2022, 00:09

That was back in the Todt days. Since then it's all been about 'praise to our competitors', 'next year', 'for the good of the sport', 'we don't have a #1 driver', 'windtunnel correlation issues', 'technical directive' and bla, bla, bla.

If Ferrari had threatened to withdraw in 2019 over the engine stitch-up ran by Toto and Horner, things would've changed real fast.

Ferrari was going to threaten to walk away because they caught playing outside the rules? Are they also going to walk away from having by far the biggest income from F1 of any team?

RossTheBoss

10th July 2022, 11:05

Ferrari was going to threaten to walk away because they caught playing outside the rules? Are they also going to walk away from having by far the biggest income from F1 of any team?
I have no problem with Ferrari being punished when they breach the rules. But there's been a huge consistency problem in F1 for some time in how the rules are made, and who has the influence on how those rules are enforced.

Ferrari being punished is fine. But illegal in season testing, oil burning, flex wings, and things like DAS just insulted everyone's intelligence with the idea that they were legal, when they explicitly were not, and if Ferrari had done any of those things, you can imagine the reaction in the paddock.

Even now Red Bull are making the ludicrous case that their engine department should get the benefits of being a new outfit for the 26' rules, despite being one now with Honda. Mercedes? They're just pretending the cost cap doesn't even exist with all their development.

evo_spook

10th July 2022, 20:09

Max being a bit of a idiot here, the sides of the floor are allowed to flex a set amount that is more then the plank is allowed to flex. They are both in the rules, so it’s not hard to understand

evo_spook

10th July 2022, 20:10

I have no problem with Ferrari being punished when they breach the rules. But there's been a huge consistency problem in F1 for some time in how the rules are made, and who has the influence on how those rules are enforced.

Ferrari being punished is fine. But illegal in season testing, oil burning, flex wings, and things like DAS just insulted everyone's intelligence with the idea that they were legal, when they explicitly were not, and if Ferrari had done any of those things, you can imagine the reaction in the paddock.

Even now Red Bull are making the ludicrous case that their engine department should get the benefits of being a new outfit for the 26' rules, despite being one now with Honda. Mercedes? They're just pretending the cost cap doesn't even exist with all their development.

DAS wasn’t against any existing rule. Flexing the plank and skid plate is.

RossTheBoss

10th July 2022, 21:04

DAS wasn’t against any existing rule. Flexing the plank and skid plate is.
DAS absolutely was against the rules then as now, explicitly so. The rules were clear that no devices may change the suspension on the car while in motion, and DAS was openly breaching that part of the regulations.

It (among other breaches by Mercedes) were only allowed because the golden boy of F1 was using it, and the pull of Mercedes in F1 these days. Any other team, it would be banned from the get-go.

And if anybody is running on the skids, it's probably Mercedes, given the sparks we've seen flying and the amount of flex that's openly visible.

RossTheBoss

10th July 2022, 21:11

Max being a bit of a idiot here, the sides of the floor are allowed to flex a set amount that is more then the plank is allowed to flex. They are both in the rules, so it’s not hard to understand
If you're running on the skid block, the sides of the floor will flex, too. Especially on the high speed straights.

We've seen that from the Mercedes, as well as sparks indicative of the floor hitting the track surface (titanium). Red Bull might do it, but Mercedes are clearly doing it. If they thought both Ferrari and Red Bull were doing it and they were innocent, they'd lodge a protest, or come right out and accuse them.

tpe

10th July 2022, 23:06

I strongly believe that Merc is involved in this flexi-floor drama.
I also think they also have this trick. I saw a picture or their floor with a brand new plank. And the plank was splitted in 2.
I thought the plank was supposed to be ONE piece, not 2.

Anyone that worked with 2 pieces materials knows that they flex at their joint. So, I believe they make all that noise in order to diverse the attention. Also, there is no way for FIA to delay the introduction of a rule that hinder RB and Ferrari.