Sorry:-??Quote:
Originally Posted by Greig
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Sorry:-??Quote:
Originally Posted by Greig
Quote:
Originally Posted by medeni73
looks like nothing new part on our car, IMO
**Please don't include photos in the quote** :-)
Dont know if it was my eyes wanting to see things but the onboard shots of Mclaren and RBRs there is for sure some movement in the front wings. Then watching the Mclarens through the last chicane and half way down last corner the front wing angle is forward, then by half way down the pit straight it was tilted back, same round the most of the lap. Couldnt really tell through the s curves as shot wasnt good enough to see the front wing. Will hunt down some pictures later, got go do stuff now.
Ferrari: Windtunnel issues hurting title bid
Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali believes his team needs to improve its windtunnel technology in order to be more efficient with its development next season.
As reported this week, Ferrari plans to shut down its windtunnel to make checks following issues with correlation.
Domenicali reckons Ferrari's current windtunnel is outdated, which is why he feels the updates to its car do not work as expected based on tunnel data.
"I think our structure is not the best one in that respect," said Domenicali on Friday at Suzuka. "It's quite old. We are trying to improve the quality of the tools we have, this is something we are trying to do, so we try and improve correlation and this is the plan that we should be able to do for next season."
Although Ferrari uses other windtunnels too, Domenicali feels closing down the team's unit to improve it is the way to go.
"We are using other facilities and in the next couple of weeks we will define programme to be more specific on that, to see what is best time to shut down and improve things that are not at the maximum level at the moment," he said.
He added: "I am sure it happened also to other teams but I have seen in the second part of the season when trying to bring new updates to the car that not all the updates are working on track. So we started to investigate it more and we found this issue.
"We considered it was coming from the tool that is not really up to the speed of the new technologies in the market. That is why we think we need to improve that, so that the percentage [improvement rate] of what we bring to the track is higher than we have now.
"I think the situation with the championship is clear: if you are not able to improve the car then it is more difficult to fight for the championship as we cannot rely on the problems of the others.
"We cannot rely only being third or fourth, we need to make sure we can win a race and then we see what is the situation with the others."
I think the worrying part about the windtunnel is that we're doing the same thing the second time in 2 years time now. Last year we detected the problem and had to shut it down for upgrades. Now we're repeating the same thing, finding that it still doesn't work, and had to shut it down again.
Perhaps its best to just build a new one, and find someone who have proven to be able to build a good one to do it. :Hmm
I too think that the windtunnel is the problem,but is it the only one,or even the biggest one?? For quite some time now,i have seen eminent engineers question the very designing of Ferrari's upgrades. Gary Anderson claimed that the rear wing's running so close to the ground would have adversely impacted the efficiency of all aerodynamic components in the car's rear section. Also,the initial versions of the controversial front wing run at Valencia and Germany were only making the airflow over the front part of the car turbulent....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet
Same Gary Anderson that designed loads of race winning cars and is wanted by every F1 team? oh wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumyaBanerjee
Domenicali starting to give up on the championship ?Quote:
Originally Posted by anialonso
:clapQuote:
Originally Posted by Greig
Gary Anderson has never have anything good to say about Ferrari.
Why would he? Its still possible to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by F2002
I thought using the wind tunnel was massively restricted now?
Well, it isn't exactly the type of rhetoric you'd expect from a commander in chief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
our structure is not the best...
the plan that we should be able to do for next season..
if you are not able to improve the car then it is more difficult to fight for the championship as we cannot rely on the problems of the others..
Better get his act together and make sure that all the hard work Alonso did so far is not compromised at the very end.
Sorry, but here we go again with "all the hard work Fernando has done" he has a team behind him and it is them who have designed the updates all year, and pulled our car from the 1.5 seconds we were off the pace at start of year. Yeah Fernando has done stella job (best of his career) but there is more to the team then Fernando. Stefano just saying what we knew after Singapore 1 and half weeks ago. Yes the tunnel needs updating and sorting out, but the press love jumping all over it because its us, Ferrari.Quote:
Originally Posted by F2002
OK, sorry for the Fernando bit - didn't want to hurt your feelings mate ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
You havent, just seem alot of people around here forget that its a team, not a 1 man band. It takes 200+ people in the team to get the car sorted for the drivers to go out there and drive. They all work 110% to give Fernando&Felipe the chance to try and win and have good race.Quote:
Originally Posted by F2002
Guys i think we could say bye bye to the WDC this year... If we are lucky and the others keep on having reliability problems or if rains other than that we wont have a car competing for pole this year. I dont think the wind tunnel is totally to blame here.. ferrari is covering their inability in developing the F2012 aerodynamicc with wind tunnel issue!!! Lotus states 75% of all their updates work, so there is a margin of 25 % chance i.e 1 out of every 4 updates that might fall in the category of not working!!! mclaren and redbull also had isues at the beginning, remember when we were flying high and winning races, mcca had lots of updates that didnt deliver straight on!!! I believe ferrari engineers need a top aerodynamicist who can guide the others to make the right choice of development route!!! Adrian newey took 5 years to get red bull to win!!! at the begiining he produced some donkey cars... lots of his updates didnt work, does that mean redbull had correlation issues, never heard!!! No Ferrari designed a bad car from the onset!!! there concept was flawed from the beginning... they had a development route in mind and had to change everything to make it work!!! now they don't know which route to take, made no mistake about it they are trying really hard, but they dont have a good chief to point them in the right direction. The good thing is that now the engineers have lots of data on what works and not work and also updates that they produced this year and didnt work on this car could work on next years car.... You learn more when things goes wrong!!!
Look at the coke bottle area, everybody knows that if you clear it up u can have better flow to the diffuser and increase ist efficiency... ferrari from the onset went for reliability of cooling system rather than aero!!! wrong direction... i nknow they cant change now... because, it will need a lot of work to get a new system working with good reliability!!!. 2nd there front wing!!! ferrari still trying to understand how the front airflow affect the rear - showed by their simple FW...
So lets hope lady luck is with us!!! but i think next year we will have a better car purely based on the experience that the team has had this year and understanding of aero philosophy...
Thats all fine and good,but its obvious that they dont have a car capable of winning races at the moment. Given the number of double headers we're facing,i doubt whether we'll see the F2012 challenge for pole at any of the remaining races. And Suzuka,just like Singapore,was supposed to be a Ferrari-friendly circuit. Different circuit,same story...the car is never within half a second of the fastest ones. Alonso cant be given all the credit for his position in the points tally,but he does deserve a lot more credit than Fry,Domenicali,Tombazis or the other people in the technical team do. I am a dedicated tifoso,but im sorry to say that the performance of the 2011 and 2012 cars have been simply disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
People posting doom and gloom after Friday practice is really really getting old.
Race day is Sunday.
Well said,and by and large,i agree. The problems faced by the team have nothing to do with circuit layouts. Even the wind-tunnel issue is probably being blown out of proportion. Fry did say last year that an overhaul of Ferrari's aerodynamic programme was overdue. And that's probably true. I would still not say that the championship is beyond our reach,as the points situation is still rather favourable,and only Vettel looks like a realistic threat now,with Hamilton an outside bet due to the MP4-27's pace. And as the number of races left decreases,alonso will have to finish ahead of his key rivals only once or twice to improve his prospects dramatically. All the same,what you've said about our aerodynamics programme is absolutely true and Ferrari need to do a lot of introspection before jumping onto another radical design as a knee-jerk reaction....Quote:
Originally Posted by dmkevin
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumyaBanerjee
Same old story every Friday practice. Yeah it tough at the moment. But iam not giving up my faith in the team to win the WDC. End of day we dont need to win many more races. Maybe 1 People seem to think that Ferrari should be like we were in early 2000s, things move on rules change, we got caught short with the in season testing ban, we got get good CFD software and wind tunnel correlation. But RBR was ahead of everyone and snapped up all best software etc etc for CFD. It all takes time, maybe few set backs along the way, thats part n part of racing. If we win WDC because rivals retire, good, even more sweeter.
How long did it take Todt Brawn and Byrne take to gel and start winning? 4-5 years.
Do you or do you not agree with the claim that Ferrari's aerodynamics programme is fundamentally flawed. I would like to know your opinions on why a big-budget team like Ferrari have failed to produce a truly excellent car after 2008(the F10 was a good car,but it wasnt the class of the field). Please do contribute...i would like to hear what somebody with 22k posts has to say about Ferrari's aerodynamics programme troubles. Let us not blindly criticise those with opposing views....Quote:
Originally Posted by Greig
So, 2012 is the "wind tunnel"season, eh? And 2011, as well. Is this to blame? I think the last 4 years were the "Dominicalli" seasons. Basically Ferrari needs two NEW things - a wind tunnel and a new boss.
To be fair, nobody even mentioned Suzuka in the latter comments (isn't there another thread about the topic?), just reacting to what Domenicali said about the wind tunnel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greig
If anything, his very comments are all doom and gloom, now perhaps I'm interpreting him wrongly.
He said it at the start of this week i think it was. Just press jumping all over it again and asking him same questions because we dont look fast here. So what, points are awarded Sunday. When we do win WDC be great to shut press up of doom and gloom mongering.Quote:
Originally Posted by F2002
Stefanos comments not doom and gloom, just telling bare truth.
It is a competition of reliability as much as it is a competition of building a fast car. A fast and fragile car is still a losing car if it cannot cross the finish line. So while this year's F2012 was never the fastest car at any point throughout this season, it is one of the most reliable car and that is something that Ferrari have achieved. And this achievement is currently helping us stay in the lead for our WDC.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmkevin
That brings us to the second point which is despite the performance challenges the F2012 faced, Alonso is leading the title still since Malaysia. So I don't think there's any reason why we should concede that the title is already gone. At worst, we just keep doing what we we have been doing and there's still a chance for us to keep the WDC lead until the end.
Of course for next year, its better if we are not doing the same thing but rather we have a fast car. But that is another discussion for the winter. Right now, Alonso still have every chance to win the WDC.
:thumbQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornet
I would like to know why moaning about it constantly will change a thing. What do you seek to gain from your constant negativity, this is a Ferrari support forum, you seem to offer nothing in support only negative. Ferrari have said they realise things are not working, they are not blind to it, so again what is there to gain from being negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoumyaBanerjee
Money is no guarantee to make a winning car, neither is being called Ferrari. Why is winning all that matters to you as a fan?
Fernando Alonso comments after FP2 ::
"This was a reasonably good day. I like driving at Suzuka because it's a very nice track which I love coming to race at and which, with its characteristics and its fast Esses, reminds me a lot of Spa. Overall, the feeling is good and I don't think the high temperatures can constitute a problem for the tyres. We have done a lot of races in hot conditions, and not that long ago either, given that Singapore was only a fortnight ago and just like we did there, we will have to learn to manage them, which indeed will be the case for everyone. It's hard to say if we can be as competitive here as in Silverstone: that was three months ago and we don't know exactly how our rivals' cars have evolved compared to how much progress we have made. We will have to wait until tomorrow, because usually on Saturday the pack gets jumbled up. As for the small updates we have brought here, there's not much to say and we will have to spend more time looking at their behaviour."
I think so... but now when the windtunnel is closed in december how are they going to develop the 2013 car...How reliable the Toyota windtunnel is...Quote:
Originally Posted by F2002
Ferrari have used the Toyota wind tunnel before and even though it may be better than the one they already have , I don't think it's on the same level as the one possessed by Red Bull and McLaren.
And with all these wind tunnel issues coming to the fore, you just know it that the 2013 challenger will probably get off to a slow start too.