Formula SAE/Student

[zakfourie]

I'm a 4th year mechanical engineering student and my friends and fellow collegues and I are interested in designing and building an
automobile.
Whether it should a gokart or something like the Atom, we still need to
decide is where it gets difficult...
Our goal is to put as much new technology and research into it to
make it feasible and also that it can be classified as 'Engineering Research'
by the University. This includes examples like active suspension, traction control, flexible or inflateable wings and so forth.

Do you guys maybe have any suggestions or comments or website links?
It will be much appreciated!!!
We just to make a proposal and get something on paper for presentations and funding.

[Ste]

I'm a 4th year mechanical engineering student and my friends and fellow collegues and I are interested in designing and building an
automobile.
Whether it should a gokart or something like the Atom, we still need to
decide is where it gets difficult...
Our goal is to put as much new technology and research into it to
make it feasible and also that it can be classified as 'Engineering Research'
by the University. This includes examples like active suspension, traction control, flexible or inflateable wings and so forth.

Do you guys maybe have any suggestions or comments or website links?
It will be much appreciated!!!
We just to make a proposal and get something on paper for presentations and funding.

Sounds amazing mate.

For the flexible wing, you could go straight to Mclaren, they have the best flexi-wing development team in the World.

[GrndLkNatv]

http://www.f1technical.net/

Lots of good technical information...

[coysht]

Sounds alot like your Uni should (if it's not already) get involved in Formula Student (http://www.formulastudent.com/)

Although it sounds like you might be a little late to get started with that sort of thing if you're already into your 4th year.


Depending on your particular areas of interest and expertise you might be better off taking an existing vehicle and modifiying it in one or two areas (more if you have lots of people to split the work across).

Things like active suspension (active anything really) will require a reasonable amount of electronic and programing knowledge, anything like wings could really do with decent aerodynamics knowledge.
If you don't have either of those I'd focus on more mechanical areas.
You could maybe work on new suspension geometry (to avoid body roll without being exesively stiff for example), mechanical versions of systems like ABS and traction control or possibly look into the engine side of things to try and improve power, torque or maybe efficiency and fuel ecconomy - something that always goes down well these days considering the environmental benifits and cost of fuels.



Besides formula student you could also design and build a car to take part in one of the Shell Eco-marathons - although this would again may require more time that you have.
(see http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...me_global.html)


Failing that, take a quick look through some engineering journals and papers to see if there is any interesting technology being developed which you could maybe work on or even use as an idea to develope something totally new - although beware of taking on too much - you need to find a project that will produce results within the timescale you have.

Anyhoo, good luck with whatever you decide on.

[zakfourie]

Thanks alot!

Ok I am halfway through my 4th year.
And the standard course duration is 4 years I think for any SouthAfrican University.
But I managed to shift my project to the 5th, which means I finish all my subjects and
can concentrate solely on the project next year.
I also want to do a Masters Degree in aerodynamics or some performance factor after
all this...

But I like your idea of modifying an existing one or concept with performance factors
I already named.

We will be a team of students, currently 4 Mechanical students but I'm working
on 2 other Electronic Engineers as well to join.
(mind you Mechanical and Electrical engineers aren't always the best of friend here... )


Thanks for the inputs!
any suggestions are welcome since I'm a bit in the dark and motorsport aren't that big
in this zoo of a country...!

[coysht]

If you're into the aerodynamics stuff maybe you could take the least aerodynamic vehicle you can and use all your knowledge and maybe some new ideas to try and make it as slick as possible?

The best bit would be that the "non-aerodynamic" car might well be pretty cheap and would show any improvements quite easily.

Purhaps you could back-to-back different ideas and see which is the most effective?



Anyhoo, I'll keep putting up ideas as I think of them.

[zakfourie]

Ok myself and a few fellow engineering students entered a competition
called Formula SAE. Don't know yet if it is quite the same as the above mentioned
Formula student...

Now, the limit of the engine may not be great than 610cc.

what will be the best? My guess is a Honda CBR600?
Coysht, you are into bikes...I need your opinion again please....

[coysht]

Ok myself and a few fellow engineering students entered a competition
called Formula SAE. Don't know yet if it is quite the same as the above mentioned
Formula student...

Now, the limit of the engine may not be great than 610cc.

what will be the best? My guess is a Honda CBR600?
Coysht, you are into bikes...I need your opinion again please....

Sounds very similar to formula student.

As far as my knowledge of bikes.... engines are still all smoke, mirrors and witchcraft to me, I just design some of the brackets that go between the engine and the wheels


Japaneese (Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki) 600 sports bike engines are generally a good bet as they're pretty much rock-solid reliability wise and pretty good on performance, and you don't even need a brand new one to get similar results.
So a Honda is probably a good bet, although it will depend on budget and availability.
Yamaha R6 and Fazer engines are pretty popular I seem to remember as well.

Other options I've seen have been single cylinder off-road bike engines (like KTMs etc) and even a single cyclinder lopped off a Ford Transit diesel - but these are a little bit off the wall and only to be attempted if you have experience of these.

I've also seen interesting things tried on the drivetrain front - most notably a snowmobile CVT gearbox....which ended up being binned....and the cluch off a Triumph Rocket III (if you've not seen that bike - stick it into youtube). Best bet is to stay reasonably conventional and try for evolution of rather than revolution.

Looking quickly at the Formula SAE website there are links to most of the teams and alot of them list their spec - so probably worth taking a quick browse through what people have done before to get an idea.

[GrndLkNatv]

probably has better performance than the Honda CBR 600? Probably cheaper as well?

Have you looked at Rotax?

You can pick up a sweet liquid cooled snowmobile engine in the 600 cc range for a good price and they have a ton of power/torq..

http://www.arcticcat.com/snow/snow.a...model=F6SNOPRO


You can get 120+ horsepower, more than a bike and way better torque as well. Centrifical clutch which is the same as a CVT, torque and power on demand.

Check out Youtube for videos of these things...

[anthonywendover]

some tech you may want to use could be here http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/ i know you guys think they are the devil. But some of the top stuff and sensors and all kinds of cool things that could be used are there. Plus they are very professional and polite when you contact them

[zakfourie]

probably has better performance than the Honda CBR 600? Probably cheaper as well?

Have you looked at Rotax?

You can pick up a sweet liquid cooled snowmobile engine in the 600 cc range for a good price and they have a ton of power/torq..

http://www.arcticcat.com/snow/snow.a...model=F6SNOPRO


You can get 120+ horsepower, more than a bike and way better torque as well. Centrifical clutch which is the same as a CVT, torque and power on demand.

Check out Youtube for videos of these things...

Does it have a gearbox?

Where can I find figures for Yamaha and Honda engines?
Those are about the best of all the motorbike engines or wat?

[GrndLkNatv]

have a 6 or 7 speed gearbox. You can just do a google for check out cycleworld.com ... A lot of karters are running Honda 125's with a 6 speed box and even more are running Rotax as it produces more power and is more reliable over the season... Yamaha has a monster top end, but the Honda has more torque. If you are running flat out on a long track with long sweeping corners the Yamaha would have an advantage. Short twisty tracks and the Honda would have the advantage.

[zakfourie]

The Formula SAE's regulations said that a top speed of only 105kph is allowed.

So should one go then for the one with the more torque?

[zakfourie]

Where can I find scientific research material about Aerodynamics?

[GrndLkNatv]

is about the same the karts run on the track...

http://www.thetrack.us

The Honda has a more tractable power band, don't have to be on it all the time so it might be better suited for you...

F1technical is a great place for Aero, a lot of guys from McLaren, Honda, Toyota and a few Ferrari people hang out over there... You can ask any question you want and you will generally get a very good answer.

http://www.f1technical.net/

Another rock solid 2 cycle alternative engine would be an outboard engine, Johnson, Evinrude or Mercury, all of which are very solid and generate tons of power.

[zakfourie]

Coyst, you don't by any chance where I can find info about Formula Student car designs?

Do you know how F...... difficult it is to design a car from scratch with no research data whatsoever?

If we compete in this FSAE competition, we will be the first university in Africa ever to compete in it...
That is very cool, but...very difficult!

[zakfourie]

oh and how can I change this thread's name to : Formula SAE/Student?

[coysht]

Coyst, you don't by any chance where I can find info about Formula Student car designs?

Do you know how F...... difficult it is to design a car from scratch with no research data whatsoever?

If we compete in this FSAE competition, we will be the first university in Africa ever to compete in it...
That is very cool, but...very difficult!

Best I can suggest is to do a google search for info on past Formula student cars. Only problem will be that alot of the work done will be in the form of projects done for student's degrees - these will probably only be stored at the Universities themselves.

[GrndLkNatv]

http://www.spydrweb.com/kartweb/manufact.html

You can get designs, or take their design and make your own...

[MrMan]

Check out www.fsae.com - great place to start. Also look up Claude Rouelle, his company OptimumG www.optimumg.com does consulting with race teams (including a few of the F1 teams (he used to do some stuff for Ferrari) for vehicle dynamics and he holds seminars for people in the industry and ones for students. I'd highly recommend going if you get a chance.

FSAE is an amazing program and if you're able to start a team or join one it'll give you a huge leg up on others when it comes time to get a job because of the experience you gain.

[zakfourie]

Thanks alot!!
Much appreciated.


(P.S Will it get me into F1...? )

[zakfourie]

Any references or textbooks on racecar sciences & engineering?

[MrMan]

It will certainly help you get into F1. What seems to be a more common path now into F1 as an engineer is getting a PhD in something like fluid/aero dynamics or applied mathematics/physics and then getting involved as a R&D engineer. Then if you want, work your way into any part of the team. It lets you skip a lot of the crap work that the higher up engineers want to just pass on to new ones.

Here's a list of some reading you'll find helpful: http://bfsae.wikispaces.com/Reading+List

[zakfourie]

Does anybody not by any chance know some rich
Invester looking for Sponsoring a
Formula SAE University team who will be
the FIRST out of Africa to participate in an event like this......?

[zakfourie]

I know this will sound a bit stupid...

But there is anyone out there...how does one design
a racecar/gokart from scratch?

Is there any scripts or textbooks about it?
I am responsible for the aerodynamics and part of the chassis,
but my tutor said that I must first build a model of the whole car
in an EXCEL spreadsheat so that it can be analyzed and optimized.

And I don't have a clue since I have no experience in racecar physics and dynamics.
There are a lot factors that needs to be reckoned in...
weight, engine power, gearbox ratios, suspension forces, braking forces, tyres, aerodynamics, material straining...the list goes on.....

Any help would be great!

[Matt Pratola]

Coyst, you don't by any chance where I can find info about Formula Student car designs?

Do you know how F...... difficult it is to design a car from scratch with no research data whatsoever?

If we compete in this FSAE competition, we will be the first university in Africa ever to compete in it...
That is very cool, but...very difficult!

Start at the library and using your professors for help and pointers. A "top" team (ie usually in the top 10) at my university back in the day involved I think upwards of 60-80 people. It is a huge project to manage, and they were only this successful after it being run year after year for 10-15 yrs. Realistically, you are going to want to start simple, borrow as much as you can instead of starting everything from scratch, and just being able to put something together that runs/works/is fairly reliable will be a huge success. I know, you might not feel like it is, but it definitely is.

The fruits of your labours today might only show up in a really good development cycle 5 yrs down the road assuming your efforts kick-off that long-term interest by the up and coming students. But that is real life - it ain't sexy. Go for it!

[Matt Pratola]

I know this will sound a bit stupid...

But there is anyone out there...how does one design
a racecar/gokart from scratch?

Is there any scripts or textbooks about it?
I am responsible for the aerodynamics and part of the chassis,
but my tutor said that I must first build a model of the whole car
in an EXCEL spreadsheat so that it can be analyzed and optimized.

And I don't have a clue since I have no experience in racecar physics and dynamics.
There are a lot factors that needs to be reckoned in...
weight, engine power, gearbox ratios, suspension forces, braking forces, tyres, aerodynamics, material straining...the list goes on.....

Any help would be great!

There certainly are books and journals that will no doubt help. The hardest part of research is getting started Be resourceful and patient. In any case, the most basic component - the frame - will likely have to be designed by you and your team. But with 4 years of mech eng, you should have enough knowledge to calculate, design and build something reasonable. Use the knowledge you have now creatively instead of looking for the perfect solution. Here is a secret - the perfect solution doesn't exist! Instead, make sensible decisions, then try to optimze what you come up with - ie make what you decided on as perfect as possible. Document everything in a professional way so that future generations can grow from your investment in research/time/money/effort.

Speaking of money, it is highly unlikely you will find 1 sponsor to foot the whole bill. Instead, you will have to reach out to as many firms as you can to try and drum up interest. Why not talk to people in the Buisiness and/or Communications depts of your university? This is truly a multidisciplinary effort, you should get good upper-year talent from these groups involved in your team to do the parts that engineers are, umm, not so great at

Good luck!

[ferrarifanman]

I am a student of Oxford Brookes University in the UK.

Formula Student is extremely tough but fun. Why don't you try reading racecar engineering if you haven't already. It can get the brain thinking fast!!

Building a car model in a excel spreadsheet.. doesn't sound like the best way of doing things. Do you have specialist CAD software such as Solidworks, Catia or ADAMS?

As the poster said above me. Utilize every department in your university you will be surprised at how much brainpower you have. Nice to see new entrants.. good stuff :)

[mad_ani]

Hi

I am a part of Monash Motorsport [Australia], and it aint a 1 man game building up an entire race car all by yourself! Use up all the know how u have from ur uni and all design by CAD would be the preferred way of building a car!!

Plus you need to get the correct sponsorship. The Honds CBR 600 Enging is the preferred one..but i reckon the rules for 2010 would change drastically.
Anyways good luck and keep us updated!

[RedRebel40]

about the Honda CBR600 engine. this engine is very reliable and has lots of horsepower, there are other manufacturers(suzuki, yamaha, kawasaki) with more horsepower but the Honda one is very reliable and the HP is close to the other japanese engines. The normal cbr600 with fuel injection has around 110 HP. the non injection ones (before 2001) have around 100 HP. The CBR600RR engine (from 2003 onwards) has around 118-120 horsepower. the other manufacturers have between 120 and 130 horsepower. so they have more horses but the honda is the most reliable engine. About the torque thing, the Honda doesn't have the most torque. it's all about the same, the other ones have maybe 5 NM torque more. the 110 HP injection engine top at 14.500 RPM. I know that the kawasaki(2003) engine has 5 NM more torque and has 123 HP. the max RPM is 13.500.
the Honda engine is less exotic but it performs well.
I have a 2001 CBR600 bike. :xmaswink: