Ferrari wants illegal passing rule change

**mad_ani** · 21st July 2010, 01:57

Originally Posted by Silent Bob

Truthfully, I don't see anyting wrong with asking that decisions which can affect a race be made quicker and with more certainty. We saw 2 races in which stewards decisions affected a race, and in those races if the decisions were made quicker, then the penalties would have had the same severity... not in one case where a drive thru really wasn't a penalty and in another case a driver ended up last. 3-4 corners is unreasonable.. but why should teams have to ask Whiting his opinion? Why can't they go staight to the stewards and get a decision within a lap or two? Better yet they need to have more uniformity.. Lewis runs out of fuel & parks his car after getting pole and doesn't recieve a penalty, passes a sc and they wait till he's free & clear and then issue his penalty. 9 drivers get 5 sec penalty after the race (not even in the rule book). Alonso deserved his penalty and paid for it more dearly than the others. I can agree with SD if he would ask that if a penalty isn't awarded within a few laps.. then it will be reviewed after the race and the team can get on with the race.. also a drivethru should need to be taken as soon as its been given, not 3 laps after.

Mclaren did receive a $10k penalty...not Lewis...It is not a driver's job to fuel his car. His team did that mistake (?)...and were punished accordingly. But again, it can be argued that pit stop mistakes or unsafe releases, the drivers are usually penalized and not the teams....

There is an international sporting code which the stewards are free to follow...

Drive thru's cannot be taken under SC conditions or when pits are closed.3 laps is sufficient time for someone to serve the penalty.

**killer** · 21st July 2010, 03:02

You can't just keep changing the rules--more so changing them to more complex ones; you'll just open up more holes that can be exploited. One would think that at this level drivers and teams know what they can and can't get away with.

**NJB13** · 21st July 2010, 03:44

Is it possible some of us are reading far too much into the quotes from SD?
IMHO, if you take the quote at face value it isn't impractical. If you add that this is an ambit claim prior to a meeting, then you'd have to say it's well put.
I'll draw attention to two clear observations that can be made:-
1) 3-4 corners only applies if the race directors are not involved
2) if the cameras don't catch it - er a bit of common sense here please - there is the other driver - he does have a radio - remember how fast Kubica was on the radio? If 4 corners pass and a driver or his team haven't sent a message then, they probably need a rocket up em

I think I can see a logic behind this that I like. All SD is doing is ensuring if the Race Directors and stewards don't get involved promptly, then it will be part of the appeals process after the race - an excellent result - where all parties can calmly put their case, all the time in the world can be given to review the matter and a consistent (wouldn't that be great!!) penalty could be applied.
Basically what I think SD is trying to do is to limit the time the current batch of incompetent stewards and directors can mess things up in

For me, this is a clever starting position to go into a meeting with.

**killer** · 21st July 2010, 09:36

I see what you're saying, mate, and I even agree that it is right to ask for a set time for race officials to react to an incident. Where I'm coming from is that, most of the time, there are easier and less complex solutions to events like last Sunday's... and that we can't keep asking for rule adjustment each time we don't like the results we get.

**Tifosi** · 21st July 2010, 09:47

Originally Posted by killer

I see what you're saying, mate, and I even agree that it is right to ask for a set time for race officials to react to an incident. Where I'm coming from is that, most of the time, there are easier and less complex solutions to events like last Sunday's... and that we can't keep asking for rule adjustment each time we don't like the results we get.

+1

bang on

**XXX132** · 22nd July 2010, 05:56

Originally Posted by Greig

So if the TV camera misses someone cutting the corner, passing 3/4 cars, then does 3 more corners, then its ok with you? come off it LOL 3 or 4 corners is clearly not enough time for race stewards to see everything.

The driver being overtaken would be on the radio fast enough... if the stewards are too busy they could always issue a post race 5 sec penalty... ;)

**NJB13** · 22nd July 2010, 06:52

Originally Posted by XXX132

The driver being overtaken would be on the radio fast enough... if the stewards are too busy they could always issue a post race 5 sec penalty... ;)

Actually, under SD's proposal, I don't think the stewards could issue a penalty, and I think that's what SD is maneuvering for. My interpretation is that he is limiting the time that the stewards can take action. Either it happens immediately after the event, within 3 or 4 corners or, it can only be dealt with through the appeals process, which would be after the race and would ensure time to come to the correct decision without pressure of time and with the inclusion of those effected and with the ability to appeal higher against any decision that is poor/bad.

Only one thing is for sure - we need to come up with some big points in the next 2 races. We do that and everyone will forget the bad decisions. Winning will make it all better

**flam147** · 22nd July 2010, 10:09

how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?

**NJB13** · 22nd July 2010, 10:31

Originally Posted by flam147

how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?

I tried to point that out before, but the general consensus seems to be that is true! Which I just find hard to equate when there is a specific rule against it - but, I guess, after Silverstone, every car is free to just move over as soon as another car gets next to you and wait till they go off track. It seems some Russian Roulette at 300Klms has been invited into F1.

**Greig** · 22nd July 2010, 10:33

If the roles were reversed would we not be unhappy if our driver did not close the door and gave away a position so easily?

**mad_ani** · 22nd July 2010, 11:33

Originally Posted by flam147

how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?

Maybe if u did watch Silverstone, and saw How Rosberg overtook jamie A, you will appreciate the wheel to wheel racing..

It was harder for the merc to pass the Torro rosso, but Rosberg did execute the overtake very well IMO..Also Vettel took on Schumi, FI's as well..

Maybe you are mentioning Alonso-kubica's incident...Kubica held on to his racing line and closed the door on Alonso, defending his position

**Tifosi** · 22nd July 2010, 11:42

Originally Posted by NJB13

I tried to point that out before, but the general consensus seems to be that is true! Which I just find hard to equate when there is a specific rule against it - but, I guess, after Silverstone, every car is free to just move over as soon as another car gets next to you and wait till they go off track. It seems some Russian Roulette at 300Klms has been invited into F1.

You keep suggesting that Alonso clearly had the corner and therefore Kubica pushed him off. It wasn't even close to being clear. I think you also have to accept that frame by frame analysis is not the same as real-time perception.

**NJB13** · 23rd July 2010, 10:42

Originally Posted by Greig

If the roles were reversed would we not be unhappy if our driver did not close the door and gave away a position so easily?

I wouldn't want us to push another car off the track - we should only do that if we clearly owned the line.

**NJB13** · 23rd July 2010, 11:13

Originally Posted by Tifosi

You keep suggesting that Alonso clearly had the corner and therefore Kubica pushed him off. It wasn't even close to being clear. I think you also have to accept that frame by frame analysis is not the same as real-time perception.

What I think is that, in real time, it was impossible to know who had the corner. Given that, and the admission by CW that he wasn't sure and that he could see SD's point, he was obliged, under the existing rules, to decide after the race. That's why I understand SD's decisions and action and can't critisize it. His only mistake was to expect that the race director/stewards would know the rules and follow them. As I said before thought, you can definitely mount a case that SD should have realised that they are not competent and could not be relied upon to make reasonable decisions.
That's also why I think SD's proposed change is reasonable, I don't think he is trying to change another rule because we got bitten, he is trying to limit the time the steward can make irractional/bad decisions. There would always be the appeals process after the race.

**justjesper** · 24th July 2010, 17:22

Originally Posted by Greig

So if the TV camera misses someone cutting the corner, passing 3/4 cars, then does 3 more corners, then its ok with you? come off it LOL 3 or 4 corners is clearly not enough time for race stewards to see everything.

Must say that I actually totally agree with Greig on this one. ( I know, it must be a chock

)

I think Stefano is encourage the FIA to work on there response time. I'm not sure but it looks like there now are more people that has to take a look at everything and it looks to take more time for them to make decisions.
The 3-4 corners must be an example and not the rule. But yes the response time has to be faster.

**hogo** · 24th July 2010, 17:44

Originally Posted by Hermann

This place is beginning to sound like an anti-Ferrari-forum.

qft

Tifosi stfu, you aren't worth of that name. If its embarrassing to be a Ferrari fan then why are you bothering? But seriously this is our team boss talking, he knows better than you or Greig or anyone else in here of whats possible and what is not. If 3-4 corners is enough then its enough. Look for example at basketball or any other sport. Ref take seconds to decide if there was a foul play or not. There are only 24 cars on the track, load of cameras, bunch of race directors and still they can't make a call in a reasonable time frame.

**Greig** · 24th July 2010, 18:03

LOL anti-Ferrari because I don't agree with every word Stefano says....heard it all now

Yes they could stop the race while they look at the video evidence like in other sports, good idea that

**Suzie** · 24th July 2010, 18:07

Being objective doesn't make you any less of a fan.

**hogo** · 24th July 2010, 18:13

Originally Posted by Greig

LOL anti-Ferrari because I don't agree with every word Stefano says....heard it all now

I can't remember when you agreed with him or even said anything positive about him... And words like "Stefano must go" what that suppose to mean? Yeah you got angry cos stewards ripped us off in Valencia and so you said them but you keep on blaming Stefano for every mistake race Stewards made. Pretty much the same outlook is in the British press. So you rather believe what they say than Ferrari team boss am I right?

**hogo** · 24th July 2010, 18:16

Originally Posted by Suzie

Being objective doesn't make you any less of a fan.

It's picking sides actually cos there are no hard facts on neither side therefore you can't be objective. And look, Greig, Tifosi and some other so called "fans" what side they chose. Clearly not Ferraris.

**Greig** · 24th July 2010, 18:16

Originally Posted by hogo

I can't remember when you agreed with him or even said anything positive about him... And words like "Stefano must go" what that suppose to mean? Yeah you got angry cos stewards ripped us off in Valencia and so you said them but you keep on blaming Stefano for every mistake race Stewards made. Pretty much the same outlook is in the British press. So you rather believe what they say than Ferrari team boss am I right?

LOL I said that when it looked like we had made a mess up of calling our drivers in, I said sorry when it became clear, maybe you missed that part....if you want to baa to every word Stefano says then be my guest, but it won't make you any more of a Ferrari fan. Stewards never ripped us off when I said that either, so don't make things up

I don't think I have blamed Stefano for anything that is not painfully obvious, such as sitting in the pits while the rest lap and we get put out of qualifying, for not telling Alonso to give back the position to Kubica.....you say Stefano knows better than anyone, clearly not....he is not infallible.

**Tifosi** · 24th July 2010, 18:25

Originally Posted by hogo

qft

Tifosi stfu, you aren't worth of that name. If its embarrassing to be a Ferrari fan then why are you bothering? But seriously this is our team boss talking, he knows better than you or Greig or anyone else in here of whats possible and what is not. If 3-4 corners is enough then its enough. Look for example at basketball or any other sport. Ref take seconds to decide if there was a foul play or not. There are only 24 cars on the track, load of cameras, bunch of race directors and still they can't make a call in a reasonable time frame.

what are you on about? Chill out and think!

Why not answer some of the concerns raised about how it could not realistically work as a solution instead of coming out with assumptions about other people and laughable personal attacks. .....oh, and misquotes aswell