German GP Race Thread

[Tifoso]

Isn't Speed an american broadcast?

It is. But they (not all of them) have been at least mildly anti-Ferrari in the past. Nice to see them come around

[Tifosi]

fffs!!! Alonso could have won thisrace byat least 40 seconds but he got held up!! by fakkn Massa!!!!

Yet again you excel yourself with your shallowness

[Julie B]

I know this is a hot topic and everyone has their strong opinions but can we calm the language down please, even if it is abbreviated !

[diablos123]

As much as i understand FA being faster than FM, but this was just not the case today. When did FM get slower? immediately after that first call from Rob, "Well done, if you keep this up you'll win" After which he got slower and slower.. Alonso over took, Massa dropped further back, suddenly as Vettel gets within 1 sec, Massa gets faster???

This was a planned result from the offset.

One thing i've noticed of Massa, when he's infront, 80% of the time he stays there. Most days Alonso is faster than him. But, I'll not be that blind to say today was one of such day.

[Tech_Skill]

As much as i understand FA being faster than FM, but this was just not the case today. When did FM get slower? immediately after that first call from Rob, "Well done, if you keep this up you'll win" After which he got slower and slower.. Alonso over took, Massa dropped further back, suddenly as Vettel gets within 1 sec, Massa gets faster???

This was a planned result from the offset.

One thing i've noticed of Massa, when he's infront, 80% of the time he stays there. Most days Alonso is faster than him. But, I'll not be that blind to say today was one of such day.

Massa is an outstanding front runner, but Alonso was faster all weekend, by 0.5 of a sec in quali and Alonso cut the gap from 2.5 down to 0.8 with some outstanding driving, had alonso had come out of corner 1 in P1, massa wouldnt have got within 0.8 of alonso, alonso is just faster and better.

[diablos123]

Massa is an outstanding front runner, but Alonso was faster all weekend, by 0.5 of a sec in quali and Alonso cut the gap from 2.5 down to 0.8 with some outstanding driving, had alonso had come out of corner 1 in P1, massa wouldnt have got within 0.8 of alonso, alonso is just faster and better.

I agree with you 100%. I just think with a 0.5 sec advantage over Massa, he should have overtaken him easily.

[Hermann]

I agree with you 100%. I just think with a 0.5 sec advantage over Massa, he should have overtaken him easily.

Easily? Have you been watching races lately? Not, its not easy. Not even when you are one second faster.

And Massa fought him with teeth and nails. Should Fernando risk an accident with pressing through? Or another penalty for being forced off track? Come on...

Everybody hates team orders like this. While they are happening all the time in the leading teams. Maybe they should just make them legal again, its done anyway, and penalties for them are hypocritical.

[DIEK]

Q: (Carlos Miquel – Diario AS) Fernando, do you feel that some people are worrying because you are back in the championship?
FA: Maybe it seems like this, yes.

[996 GT1 Lover]

I'm very happy with the 1-2 finish today. However, I'm not completely sure how I feel about what occurred regarding team orders today. I'm a team first guy, and I admittedly think Alonso is a better driver, but I don't really think that this is how he should've won.

[Tech_Skill]

Q: (Carlos Miquel – Diario AS) Fernando, do you feel that some people are worrying because you are back in the championship?
FA: Maybe it seems like this, yes.

I have always said, the top drivers in the sport are Alonso and Hamilton, Vettel isnt on that level yet cos he needs Horner to help him beat Webber and he struggled against Button last year on the occasions he had the better car. A fully focused, happy alonso in a good car is game over for 95% of the drivers in this field, Hamilton is the only one we REALLY need to worry about, even more so that Vettel. Webber and Button are ok drivers who found themselves in top cars.

I have also always said a 100% felipe massa is better than button and Webber, can you imagine Massa at the front of the grid in that red bull....in clear air, without horner interfering???

He would be killing these others drivers man.

[SilverSpeed]

One thing that upsets me is that Fonzo moaned on the team radio earlier on like 'this is ridiculous' ( he was stuck behind Felipe. )

But he shouldn't moan about that like he always does he shut put his money where is mouth is then and trie to pass him not cruising along and hoping for a team order.

And during the onboard at Vettel's or Webber's car I saw how that front wing came up during heavy braking, and when they accelerated some parts dissapeared again from the camera. Serious flexing if you ask me. Later on I saw the Ferrari's onboard camera and they only moved very little during heavy breaking so I'm wondering why noone protested about that????

[Greig]

He did try to pass him, only for them nearly to hit each other, and that's why he said what he did.....

[Hermann]

One thing that upsets me is that Fonzo moaned on the team radio earlier on like 'this is ridiculous' ( he was stuck behind Felipe. )

But he shouldn't moan about that like he always does he shut put his money where is mouth is then and trie to pass him not cruising along and hoping for a team order.

And during the onboard at Vettel's or Webber's car I saw how that front wing came up during heavy braking, and when they accelerated some parts dissapeared again from the camera. Serious flexing if you ask me. Later on I saw the Ferrari's onboard camera and they only moved very little during heavy breaking so I'm wondering why noone protested about that????

Its 'Alonso' Not that hard to type.

[996 GT1 Lover]

One thing that upsets me is that Fonzo moaned on the team radio earlier on like 'this is ridiculous' ( he was stuck behind Felipe. )

But he shouldn't moan about that like he always does he shut put his money where is mouth is then and trie to pass him not cruising along and hoping for a team order.

And during the onboard at Vettel's or Webber's car I saw how that front wing came up during heavy braking, and when they accelerated some parts dissapeared again from the camera. Serious flexing if you ask me. Later on I saw the Ferrari's onboard camera and they only moved very little during heavy breaking so I'm wondering why noone protested about that????

Teams haven't protested because the Red Bull has passed all of the FIA's tests. Give it up!

[Greig]

NobleF1 The FIA has given the front wing designs of Red Bull Racing and Ferrari the all clear

[REDARMYSOJA]

It is. But they (not all of them) have been at least mildly anti-Ferrari in the past. Nice to see them come around

"mildly anti-Ferrari"? I have wanted to chunk a brick through the TV because of them several times.

But yeah, it's suprising to hear them backing Ferrari. I suppose it's because they are all old hands at F1 and know team orders have been around forever.

[Ste]

NobleF1 The FIA has given the front wing designs of Red Bull Racing and Ferrari the all clear

Phew. For a few minutes I thought they'd penalise us and let Red Bull off.

[FFFerrari]

Phew. For a few minutes I thought they'd penalise us and let Red Bull off.

That would have been SO wrong. It seems that both were inside the allowed tolerances, so end to that discussion.

[SilverSpeed]

Ok then why didn't Ferrari dicussed this possible item that could happen at any GP where Felipe is in front of Fonzo, that at some point during the race he lets Fonzo pass him in a subtle way...

End of discussion if you ask me then we are in no need anymore of these specific radio messages where other people think that we are using team orders. All be talked voer before the race.

[steve1971]

I am a little on the fence about this one. In some ways I feel bad for Felipe because he was doing an outstanding job and deserved the win but Fenando did have the faster car and is closer in the championship standings then Felipe so I can in some ways understand why things happened they way they did. But the following press conference was a stunner for me because of what I saw from Massa. He was very short and to the point and you could see the anger on his face. Can you blame him? No. But you have to do whats best for the team. He races for Ferrari and not for himself plain and simple. They sign his paychecks. There are times when my employer tells me to do something and I am not happy with it but I do it, why? Because they sign my paychecks and its for the good of the company whether I like it or not. Some are placing the blame on Fernando and this is wrong. Place the blame on where it belongs on thats on the guys on the pit lane who are on the team radio giving the orders. Felipe in my opion should have vented behind closed doors but no he did it before the cameras and to me thats not good and it maybe one of the reasons why he may not be back with Ferrari next year. But this might just come back and bite us now because we got fined and now have to go before the FIA Motorsport Council. It was a great 1-2 today but the victory may be short lived.

[Stormsearcher]

I am a little on the fence about this one. In some ways I feel bad for Felipe because he was doing an outstanding job and deserved the win but Fenando did have the faster car and is closer in the championship standings then Felipe so I can in some ways understand why things happened they way they did. But the following press conference was a stunner for me because of what I saw from Massa. He was very short and to the point and you could see the anger on his face. Can you blame him? No. But you have to do whats best for the team. He races for Ferrari and not for himself plain and simple. They sign his paychecks. There are times when my employer tells me to do something and I am not happy with it but I do it, why? Because they sign my paychecks and its for the good of the company whether I like it or not. Some are placing the blame on Fernando and this is wrong. Place the blame on where it belongs on thats on the guys on the pit lane who are on the team radio giving the orders. Felipe in my opion should have vented behind closed doors but no he did it before the cameras and to me thats not good and it maybe one of the reasons why he may not be back with Ferrari next year. But this might just come back and bite us now because we got fined and now have to go before the FIA Motorsport Council. It was a great 1-2 today but the victory may be short lived.

The most sensible post in this entire thread!! thanks.

[996 GT1 Lover]

It is. But they (not all of them) have been at least mildly anti-Ferrari in the past. Nice to see them come around

I watch the races on the BBC site using a proxy (since I don't have cable; I might've told you about this ), so I missed this part. What were they saying?

[Agron]

From a post in the Autosport forums by NadsatII, spanish reporters had a similar theory while Ferrari's test driver present then didn't seem to deny it, some of the things they said on the press conference would make more sense now:

Read in the Spanish forum "Forocoches", a well respected forum in which some Spanish race drivers usually post and with the same prestige of this forum...

There's a interesting theory of the race here, and very well elaborated:

"Pues yo apuesto a que ha sucedido lo siguiente:

ha habido una reunión previa en la que se ha acordado que en caso de un 1-2 con el segundo pidiendo paso por ser pretendidamente más rapido, éste debería dejar crecer el gap hasta más allá de los 3 segundos, y seguidamente recuperarlos. En caso de lograrlo, se le haría saber al primero que el segundo había demostrado en pista ser efectivamente más rápido y se le cedería la prioridad.

Sea quien sea el que demuestre tener el ritmo superior.

Me baso para afirmarlo en que:

1) Después de una reunión previa, Fernando se mostró seguro de que Massa no sería un problema.

2) En las primeras vueltas, Massa tenía permiso para luchar.

3) En cuanto se ha Fernando ha dejado crecer la diferencia hasta los 3 segundos, ha habido un mensaje por radio del ingeniero de Massa a éste dicidendo "ahora Felipe, es el momento, hay que darlo todo, the gap is all now. We can win the race."

4) Después de este mensaje, y pese a Felipe lograr varias vueltas rápidas, Fernando recupera el terreno fácilmente.

5) En cuanto lo vuelve a tener a tiro, el mensaje a Massa es otro: "Massa, Fernando es más rápido. Confirma que has entendido el mensaje"

Conclusiones:

Massa podía mantener en pista la diferencia, y habría mantenido la victoria. Esta se la jugaron en el intervalo en que se turnaron en las vueltas rápidas.

Massa es considerablemente más lento, los 3 segundos de ventaja le duraron... cuántas vueltas?

Por último, si la hipótesis del acuerdo previo para actuar de esta forma es cierta, me parece muy inteligente por parte de Ferrari.

Igualmente, siempre me pareció que mi forma de proceder, si yo fuera el propietario de un equipo, sería muy parecida a esa. Nada de dejar que rajen entre ellos, ni jugarretas, ni nada. El que presuntamente se crea más rápido, que lo demuestre en la pista. Si lo hace, nada de que el más lento comprometa la victoria.

Finalmente, Massa mostró su enfado por lo que había pasado, y podía no respetar lo acordado (otros sistemáticamente incumplen pactos previos), pero sí se comportó de acuerdo con las reglas que habían acordado.

Acabo diciendo que si no fuera así cómo han sucedido las cosas, vegüenza para Ferrari, y retiraría lo dicho. Pero si el pacto daba la posibilidad de reclamar prioridad en la pista a ambos, me parece una solución justa".

---Translation (if someone can correct me and help me in the translation, much more better):

"I bet it could have happen as follow:

There was a previous briefing in which was agreed that in the case of 1-2, with the second driving asking to overtake based on he was thinking he was faster, this second driver should give a gap or more than three seconds, and, inmediately to recover the speed. In that case, the leading driver should know that the second driver was faster in the track and, hence, to let the second driver to overtake him. (Second driver should have the priority to overtake).

Whoever he was, he had to show he had a better pace.

I'm based on this:

1) After the previous briefing, Fernando was sure that Massa wouldn't be a problem for him.

2) In the first laps, Mass had green light to fight for the race.

3) When Alonso was behind with more than 3 seconds of gap, there was a radio-message for Massa saying: "Now, Felipe, is the moment. You have to deliver it to the maximum, concentrate, the gap is all now. We can win the race."

[(Radio transcripts needed here)]

4) After this message, and despite Felipe is doing some fastest laps, Fernando is recovering time easily.

5) When Fernando is again just in the back of Massa, Massa is radioed again with a very different message: "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you. Confirm that you understood the message".

Conclusions:

Massa could have the gap on track and race for the win. But both drivers raced each other in the fastest laps episode.

Massa was evidently slower. His 3 seconds gap lasted... how many laps?

Last... if the theory of the previous agreement to behave like this is true, I think that it's a smart move by Ferrari

If I were the owner of a team, my behaviour would be really similar. Nothing about them fighting each other, no dirty tricks. The one who thinks he's fasters has to show that in the track. And if he shows it, the one slower can't compromise his win.

Finally, Massa showed his anger about all what had happened, but he, at least, could have respect (other ones, sistematically didn't do that) the agreement. Anyway, he behaved according to the previous briefing.

I want to finish saying that if things were not according to this theory, shame for Ferrari and I would regret for what I've said. But if the agreement gave both driver to claim for priority in the track, I think that it was a fair agreement"

--------

The most plausible theory for me at the moment according to the radio-comunications, according to certain moments in the race (there's a TV broadcast in Ferrari garage in which someone is explaining, in Spanish, to Emilio Botin, the owner of Santander, that Fernando -being second at that time- "debe dejar tres o cuatro segundos a Felipe antes de atacar" ---"Fernando has to allow about 3, 4 seconds to Felipe before attacking again).



http://forums.autosport.com/index.ph...320&start=3320

[DIEK]

I am a little on the fence about this one. In some ways I feel bad for Felipe because he was doing an outstanding job and deserved the win but Fenando did have the faster car and is closer in the championship standings then Felipe so I can in some ways understand why things happened they way they did. But the following press conference was a stunner for me because of what I saw from Massa. He was very short and to the point and you could see the anger on his face. Can you blame him? No. But you have to do whats best for the team. He races for Ferrari and not for himself plain and simple. They sign his paychecks. There are times when my employer tells me to do something and I am not happy with it but I do it, why? Because they sign my paychecks and its for the good of the company whether I like it or not. Some are placing the blame on Fernando and this is wrong. Place the blame on where it belongs on thats on the guys on the pit lane who are on the team radio giving the orders. Felipe in my opion should have vented behind closed doors but no he did it before the cameras and to me thats not good and it maybe one of the reasons why he may not be back with Ferrari next year. But this might just come back and bite us now because we got fined and now have to go before the FIA Motorsport Council. It was a great 1-2 today but the victory may be short lived.

[theodorus8864]

I hope comments above are pretty straightforward to clear the air off around us. So stop acting like crying babies that "massa deserves the victory" or "alonso should take the blame" whatever. The message is clear. No more bias over the situation. The team has been fined and we can't afford more internal conflict. Don't make things worse in both team and forum. Case closed.