Hungarian GP Qualifying Thread

[Greig]

Thats about the cut and thrust of it.

No, they will just change the tests to make it illegal, they cant punish anyone for it now as it's legal much like our flexi-floor.

[racingbradley]

That's more than we can bear.

[Stormsearcher]

No, they will just change the tests to make it illegal, they cant punish anyone for it now as it's legal much like our flexi-floor.

hmmm.. it does look like they have it in for us and maybe even RB.

[Greig]

hmmm.. it does look like they have it in for us and maybe even RB.

To be fair, if we never had such a flexi wing then we would be wanting it banned as well

[ferrari4life]

But isnt our new found pace because of this flexi-wing?
besides it could mean they relegate the top 4 to the back of the grid (is that possible?).
Nightmare- Hamilton starts in pole.

they cant do that. they can change the rules..but that doest effect the past

[Stormsearcher]

To be fair, if we never had such a flexi wing then we would be wanting it banned as well

hehe.. i know. But i wish just once,.. once in a while an unfair (if it is that) decision should go in OUR favour. Am tired of seeing the FIA jumping on our backs at the slightest hint of a comeback to form.

[Stormsearcher]

they cant do that. they can change the rules..but that doest effect the past

Pardon my ignorance. But does that mean we get to race with these wings even should they find it illegal by tom morning. And if they state it illegal after the race, do we stand to lose those points?
I just hope not.

[Alonsomaniac]

To be fair, if we never had such a flexi wing then we would be wanting it banned as well

Hehe, exactly! They are all alike, all the teams. The moment they invent something they are completely sure it's perfectly legal, and the moment another team invents something they are completely sure it's very much illegal.
But hey, it's just part of the game...

[FerrariF60]

To be fair, if we never had such a flexi wing then we would be wanting it banned as well

or if it were JUST us that had the flexi front wing, i'm sure the good ol FIA would have declared it ILLEGAL by now; but since is red bull that had it first, they some how "looked the other way" and declared it legal

[mandzipop]

There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the front wings are illegal. However they are passing the FIA tests. They will need to prove that they are legal. The FIA can change the test. There is no proviso for having to give notice to change the test. If it fails that test then we will start from the back of the grid. Toyota got relegated in Australia 2009 after their flexi rear wings were deemed legal and then after quali they were deemed illegal.

Mclaren and Merc aren't protesting that the wing is illegal. It is quite obvious that in theory it is. They are seeking clarification on what is deemed ok within the rules of the scrutineering. This opens up a can of worms. Also it appears that Red Bull (not sure about Ferrari) may have a flexi floor.

[Greig]

There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the front wings are illegal. However they are passing the FIA tests. They will need to prove that they are legal. The FIA can change the test. There is no proviso for having to give notice to change the test. If it fails that test then we will start from the back of the grid. Toyota got relegated in Australia 2009 after their flexi rear wings were deemed legal and then after quali they were deemed illegal.

Mclaren and Merc aren't protesting that the wing is illegal. It is quite obvious that in theory it is. They are seeking clarification on what is deemed ok within the rules of the scrutineering. This opens up a can of worms. Also it appears that Red Bull (not sure about Ferrari) may have a flexi floor.

No they get sent back as they failed scrutineering, we have passed such tests today, if the FIA now change the test then we could not use the wing again if it would fail the test, we have non-flexi wings with us and have used them this weekend. The FIA can't change the test then re-test our cars and send them back, all that would happen is we could not use them again, much like they changed the rules for our flexing floor, we just stopped using it from the next race. I doubt the FIA will change the test mid-weekend anyway.

[FFFerrari]

They won't change the tests during a GP weekend UNLESS they find the parts dangerous (it was the case with Toyota) and I doubt that is the case. And the floor test is very rigid so I doubt they (RB) have a flexi-floor. The McLooser flexi-paranoia seems to spread here too...

[Rob]

RB have had a flexi front wing for age's. Noticed it early on in the year (and last year. coming to think about it) but thought i was seeing things as such devices are banned. Plus if we had that right from the go, we wouldnt of been allowed to carry on racing that wing. Seems as if FIA are turning blind eye abit to certain parts of the RB car. So obvious the front wing is flexing, not by a little bit, but LOADS!!. When we have ours on, doesnt look as bad as RB's.

Anyway, Vettel/Webber will have get together by end of lap 1. No way will Vettel keep straight and not try defend position to Webber. Good chance for Fernando and Felipe not get past.

[dbristol91]

Damn, Vettel is fast! Wow! About 1 second ahead of Alonso...holy crap! It should be interesting tomorrow...go Ferrari! Felipe, God bless you! Alonso, please win tomorrow!

[Tommy_F]

As long as the cars pass scrutineering then they are legal. Cars may be illegal according to the regulations, but as long as the rules are not enforced properly, the engineers can take advantage (see DDD, team orders, flexi-stuff).

[Brakefade]

I can see our wing passing the test, and still being able to flex under downforce, but the RB wing is so flimsy. It looks like it's gonna fall off. Bernie Ecclestone's wig is stiffer.

EDIT: Remeber in 2006 (I think) we had a flexi wing, and the FIA declared it illegal solely on video evidence. Why don't they declare the RB wing illegal earlier. It flexes at least 15cm ours, at that time, flexed by like 3 mm, and the argument could've been made it was just a video error.

[mandzipop]

I think the problem is going to be that the cars are likely to pass any load test applied. As the cars are static in any load test then the tests are useless. Yes there is conclusive tv proof that the wings are too low. But if they cant prove it without the photo's then what can they do? The only tests the FIA can do are load tests, they cant do motion tests. So unless they base the car illegal on tv footage, then I don't think they can do a lot.

I'm having a mood-o-meter moment with this wing-gate situation.

[kazi]

EDIT: Remeber in 2006 (I think) we had a flexi wing, and the FIA declared it illegal solely on video evidence. Why don't they declare the RB wing illegal earlier. It flexes at least 15cm ours, at that time, flexed by like 3 mm, and the argument could've been made it was just a video error.

Because our design was way more obvious, we didn't connect the upper wing with the nose and we had no reason not to. The only reason for our "pin-in-a-hole" design was to allow the front wing to flex. The thing with the RB wing is that no one knows why it flexes, much harder to tell them what to do in order to make it "legal".

[Brakefade]

Yes, they can, they have been way faster all FP and qualifying sessions, not just Q3. I doubt they even used that engine map thing that gives them a few tenths extra, they didn't need it at all.

They obviously used it in Q3.

[FerrariF60]

They obviously used it in Q3.

i thought we had that engine mapping as well....if so have we even used it in Q3??
i guess we'll never know....

but seriously, i dont think that the bulls have used it in FP or Q1 and Q2, as it supposedly puts quite some strain on the motor...so if they were to use it, it would ONLY BE Q3

[Brakefade]

F1: Why Is Red Bull So Fast ?


After the team orders controversy, F1 teams have moved on to a bigger problem: Red Bull's overwhelming pace.

Ferrari looked to have closed the gap with one-two victory at Hockenheim, but on Saturday Sebastian Vettel's 1.2 second advantage over the first non-Red Bull was described in Hungary by Mercedes reserve driver Nick Heidfeld as "frightening".

"I don't know what they are doing, but it's incredible," said McLaren's Lewis Hamilton, who is leading the championship but nearly two seconds off the pace in qualifying.

The 2008 world champion's boss Martin Whitmarsh suspects Red Bull is bending the rules and its front wings too far and gaining as much as a second per lap in that way.

"Or, the front of the floor is moving up further than we expect, because that's another piece of bodywork that's intended to be rigidly attached," said the Briton.

BBC radio commentator and former Super Aguri racer Anthony Davidson said on Saturday: "I've heard rumours about all sorts of things going on, including flexible floors."

When asked what is the secret of Red Bull's speed, Vettel said after qualifying that the answer is "well hidden".

There have been quiet rumours about flexible front wings on the Red Bull since the Chinese grand prix, as long ago as April.

Mercedes' Ross Brawn said on Saturday: "That (the front wing) is not the reason this car is so fast. It's part of many good ideas that all fit together."

Vettel said: "It's the track. The cars have not changed since six days ago, when Ferrari were slightly faster than us. Now they're 1.2 seconds back.

"The only difference between now and then is the track. Just as Hockenheim was perfect for Ferrari, so Hungary is for us."

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-141560.html

Just rumors, but the "well hidden" comment by Vettel is intriguing. Ride height thing, flexi wings, and now this "well hidden" comment. I think Ferrari should start taking some footage with a high speed camera, might show details not seen with pictures or FOM feed.

[Hermann]

Did anyone see the interview with Derek Warwick, who is one of the stewards for the weekend, on BBC before the qualifying? He said when you do team- orders, do it more clever, make the car run wide in a curve or something, the way Ferrari did it was just too obvious....so he is basically saying if you do it in a clever way, we will look some other direction? Hide it, so its not that obvious to the spectators, and they can keep the illusion? This is cynical. True, but cynical nontheless.

So Ferrari has not been penalized for team- orders, but for not hiding it enough. I already suspected that much, but nice from Mr. Warwick to state that openly. It was funny to see EJ defending his viewpoint and Warwick actually defending team orders....

[nikhil4356]

Ross Brawn said on Saturday: "That (the front wing) is not the reason this car is so fast. It's part of many good ideas that all fit together."

Redbull had the fastest car all season. They have wasted their lead already in points standing. Why r now they scating on thin ice risking championship? I have a feeling that Redbull are strongly on the way of losing the championship with the fastest car. That is quite a feat.
As long as RedBull duo take points of each other Alonso can safely be in championship contention even by third place finish and in final races
can go for a kill..............

After front row lock up the question now is what will Red Bull do to throw it all away this time?

Vettel & Webber being too aggressive with each other off the start line, or Vettel again failing to get a decent start and going backwards?

The season theyve had both of those seem far more likely than the easy 1-2 finish their qualifying (and practice) performance would suggest.

Either way it seems like itll be the typical Hungarian race; if theres no rain itll be the perfect time to enjoy a Sunday afternoon nap.

[Tifosi]

Did anyone see the interview with Derek Warwick, who is one of the stewards for the weekend, on BBC before the qualifying? He said when you do team- orders, do it more clever, make the car run wide in a curve or something, the way Ferrari did it was just too obvious....so he is basically saying if you do it in a clever way, we will look some other direction? Hide it, so its not that obvious to the spectators, and they can keep the illusion? This is cynical. True, but cynical nontheless.

So Ferrari has not been penalized for team- orders, but for not hiding it enough. I already suspected that much, but nice from Mr. Warwick to state that openly. It was funny to see EJ defending his viewpoint and Warwick actually defending team orders....

It's not really cynical Hermann, it's just an obvious fact. If someone knows you did something then they tend to think of it differently than if they only suspect you did something. The outcome is the same but the perception is different.

We are all debating the hypocrisy of the other teams bleating on about it (especially when we all know that they do it too), but the fact is that they have been given a perfect opportunity to capitalise on our blatancy in the media for their own ends.

It's a bit like picking your nose. If you make it obvious, expect your family to moan at you about it - even if they do it themselves when you're not looking