Red Bull Team Orders

[Greig]

Vettel slowed Alonso enough to give webber 2sec (may be less or more)lead at the restart of the race. If one looks at the replays Vettel significantly slowed when saftey car was about to exit. Suppose if vettel botched up the start, he wasn't trying hard to reduce the gap to webber for the first 4 to 5 laps. In normal racing conditions after losing 2 sec to webber he would have made every attempt to reduce that gap, which indicates he knew webbers strategy and was part of it. If vettel would have kept gap under 4 sec to webber till his drive through who knows he would have emerged ahead of Alonso after drive through penalty; smilar to last year where webber won after drive through. Its just my thought cause i strongly feel that even a debutant in f1 will be at the back of leading car waiting for the oppurtunity unless specifically instructed by the team.

Vettel was on the harder tyre, which takes some laps to get up to speed, he did not need to reel Webber in and ruin his tyres in the process, as he was clearly going to lead when Mark pitted for his stop Why would Red Bull suddenly back Webber when everything they have done previously is to make Vettel champ?

[nikhil4356]

But surely he gave webber 2 sec lead at the start. This gap is way to much even considering that safety car was to stay for one more lap. Vettel and Alonso were on hard tyres so in normal racing so he should have pulled away from Alonso but wasn't the case. One can argue that Vettel was just nursing the car knowing webber had a pitstop to make but a gap of 2 sec to Alonso when webber was 6 sec ahead of him and then subsequently vettel set the fastest laps after instructions from engineer and got enough gap to massa till his penalty raises doubts in my mind. Redbull gambled to get webber ahead of Alonso at the expense of Vettel and lost the gamble. They were scating on thin ice hoping to get away with it but unfortunately they lost. This will hurt them if Vettel looses championship by 5-10 points.

[Greig]

He said he thought the SC was doing another lap, so if it did he would have been closer, he gave Webber a gap because his own words "was sleeping" and did not know the SC was coming in that lap. He did pull away from Alonso though easily why do you say he never? Again why would Red Bull suddenly favour Webber? If they wanted Webber ahead then why did they not just pit Webber at the SC and leave Vettel out?

[Stormsearcher]

Seems like both theories are plausible.

But could it be that RB were caught out with regards to webber and instead of doing what Ferrari did, bring both cars in at the same time, they let one stay out.. and they let mark do this, cause IF instead of doing 40 odd laps on his soft rubber, he had to come in much earlier due to degradation or whatever, they he would have lost out to vettel, nando and prbly even massa. They let webber take the risk instead of vettel, but it worked out the other way round as those tyres were ruddy good.

[coysht]

If anything, by not pitting Webber under the safetycar, isn't that an example of how they were favouring Vettle and trying to protect his race lead from the potential of a charging Webber?........

OK, I am just poking things with a stick for my own amusement now.


Vettle let the gap to Webber extend on more than one occasion, not just at the re-start - the example FOM decided to show us when the drive through was announced was of Vettle dropping back along the pit straight, probably at the start of the lap the SC eventually came in.

[Greig]

Seems like both theories are plausible.

But could it be that RB were caught out with regards to webber and instead of doing what Ferrari did, bring both cars in at the same time, they let one stay out.. and they let mark do this, cause IF instead of doing 40 odd laps on his soft rubber, he had to come in much earlier due to degradation or whatever, they he would have lost out to vettel, nando and prbly even massa. They let webber take the risk instead of vettel, but it worked out the other way round as those tyres were ruddy good.

Vettel still would have won without the drive though Webber was left out to jump Alonso not Vettel

[Stormsearcher]

Vettel still would have won without the drive though Webber was left out to jump Alonso not Vettel

ya i agree. Thats wat am saying, they didnt know of the drive thru coming. So the strategy was perfectly suited for vettel. So there is no question of webber being favoured here.. if at all.. it was vettel who was favoured. MW may or may not have jumped alonso.. depending on when he would pit eventually. Dont think even they expected the option tyres to do such a stellar job.

[nikhil4356]

Thats where Redbull lost the plot. They are not supporting webber over vettle. Its just to snatch a Redbull 1-2 they asked vettle to slow Alonso enough ( 2 sec) knowing vettle will undoubtly take lead from webber after pitstop. In post race interview he mentioned sleeping which I felt was his way of to expressing anger slightly exaggerated. Had vettle lost due to his own accord he would have apologised to the team.( Remember Australia 2009 crash with kubica). Today he indirectly expressed his displeasure againts teams decisions.

For the sake of debate lets accept vettle was sleeping. Then horner would have immediately radioed vettel to increase the pace and built a gap of 11-12 sec to Alonso which would have enabled vettle to keep his position after serving penalty.( hamilton valencia)

Well thats not the case so as long as redbull comits mistakes and Ferrari gains I am Happy. Its just that the above circumstances raise doubts in my mind of team orders.

[Greig]

He drove away cos he'd done what was asked of him (which was to back the field up before the SC came in), and after that he just chased Webber. My questions would be "why back up that much of his own valition?" and "why get so heated about cocking it up if he did do it of his own valition?" and also, "why was his race engineer basically telling him to keep quiet on the in lap?"

Ok and what did he achieve by holding the field up? Did you listen to what he said at all? Why was he backing the field up at the start of the SC in lap? He did not understand why he got a penalty, we heard him questioning the FIA guy on the way to the podium as to why he got it....why do you think Red Bull can hide what drivers are being told when the radio is open to the FIA?

[Greig]

For the sake of debate lets accept vettle was sleeping. Then horner would have immediately radioed vettel to increase the pace and built a gap of 11-12 sec to Alonso which would have enabled vettle to keep his position after serving penalty.( hamilton valencia)

Again, you miss the fact he had lost radio contact with the team under the SC And he was told to try and push via Horner when he was given the investigation, not to stay ahead of Alonso but to stay ahead of Massa....

[nikhil4356]

Again, you miss the fact he had lost radio contact with the team under the SC And he was told to try and push via Horner when he was given the investigation, not to stay ahead of Alonso but to stay ahead of Massa....

That was 6-7 laps after the restart. So if vettle had comitted mistake horner should or would have been informed by vettels engineer immediately which horner would have relaid to vettle. Its only after the stewards intervened that horner informed. So we can either conclude that enther Redbull gambled and lost or else unlike vettle entire pitwall was sleeping and only when stewards intervened did Redbull took the notice of Vettels mistake
and acted accordingly.

[Greig]

That was 6-7 laps after the restart. So if vettle had comitted mistake horner should or would have been informed by vettels engineer immediately which horner would have relaid to vettle. Its only after the stewards intervened that horner informed. So we can either conclude that enther Redbull gambled and lost or else unlike vettle entire pitwall was sleeping and only when stewards intervened did Redbull took the notice of Vettels mistake
and acted accordingly.

They had lost radio contact? what part of that is hard to understand?

At the re-start I was sleeping. I was probably relying too much on the radio but somewhere in the first stint I Iost the radio connection and I didn’t hear anything. I saw the safety car boards and was waiting for instruction when the safety car would come in. I didn’t see the lights. Also Mark, usually the leader when he does the re-start, he tries to drop back and then dictates the pace. Mark was very close and I was warming up my car. I was sure we had another lap, so I didn’t really understand. Then I saw Mark and the safety car at the second last corner, quite a big gap to myself. I noticed the safety car going into pits, so that must be the re-start and I was caught out, so I lost a lot of momentum and lost a lot in the first couple of laps which was not the intention. Then I got the drive-through. But during the race I did not understand.

Q: (Joe Saward - Grand Prix Special) Sebastian, can you tell us exactly when you lost the radio and how you knew when to pit?

SV: I don’t know when I lost the radio. Obviously I cannot say the (exact) lap because you’re not in contact with your team on every lap, and then from race control I got the message on the start/finish straight. It’s not so easy to see it because it’s just coming out of the last corner. I think I was just right, so probably a bit lucky that I didn’t miss it, and didn’t do too many laps.

For the safety car? I was obviously ten seconds clear of the rest of the field, and I was just exiting turn 13 and there is a light, a board on the right hand side with SC that just popped out, and I was already on the way to approach the last corner and then I saw it at the last second and decided to slow because I knew that within half a second, I knew what could be the consequence if I had to stay out. In the end, we had the pace advantage, so yes, it might have been the smarter thing to do, looking back, but you don’t know at that stage, so I cut the entrance a bit which was last minute and came into the pit, so it was fine.

[2010hazzah]

No team orders there IMO. Just a good old fashioned team stuff-up heh heh heh

[JRX164]

Well, anyway. I really liked this photo and I hope to see more of those

[Hornet]

If anything, by not pitting Webber under the safetycar, isn't that an example of how they were favouring Vettle and trying to protect his race lead from the potential of a charging Webber?........

IMO they actually saw an opportunity or took a risk few other team would take.

Its normal that the driver at the front gets to pit first in situation like this. Had they brought Mark in as well, its all over for Mark. Given their pace, they probably knew that its more beneficial to let Mark stay out and pull open a gap, and then pit and jump Alonso. The only gamble they took is probably how long the tires will last. They would have gotten a 1-2 finish had Vettel not messed up