Drawing the battle lines....

[TIFOSI_FERRARI]

we don't afraid any rival , even the fia . the fia had used to change laws every five minutes
we have every thing , the wining car . the double World Champion , the perfect massa , the new chief strategist Neil Martin , the new head of race track engineering pat fray , our team Principal the Nice Guy

[NJB13]

The most stupid thing about this whole rear wing thing is that it is completely untested. How utterly moronic to guinea pig this on the real live F1 racing?

Everyone is so focused on how this will effect overtaking, I think we are completely missing the biggest danger. How can one car escape another? How can you build a lead? If you cannot pull out over a second in less than a lap the car behind will be, at worst, be allowed to pass you, at best placed right on your rear axle again.

[TheProdigalSon]

The most stupid thing about this whole rear wing thing is that it is completely untested. How utterly moronic to guinea pig this on the real live F1 racing?

Everyone is so focused on how this will effect overtaking, I think we are completely missing the biggest danger. How can one car escape another? How can you build a lead? If you cannot pull out over a second in less than a lap the car behind will be, at worst, be allowed to pass you, at best placed right on your rear axle again.

One word - KERS. It's not going to be easy get that close and the driver infront could timely activate there KERS to defend. We should see it in action before being too critical. They first few races will be used to see how it works and they will adjust it if it needs adjusting. I hope they get the right balance from the beginning and make sure overtaking is still a big risk.

[Rishu]

our team Principal the nice gay

Are you serious?

[NJB13]

One word - KERS. It's not going to be easy get that close and the driver infront could timely activate there KERS to defend. We should see it in action before being too critical. They first few races will be used to see how it works and they will adjust it if it needs adjusting. I hope they get the right balance from the beginning and make sure overtaking is still a big risk.

Sorry, but that's plain wrong. BOTH cars can activate KERS. Only the trailing car can activate the rear wing.

If they changed it after race one, it will be an admission that the result of the race was adversely effected by the moronic rule. So some driver gets 7, 10, how many bonus points from this stupid rule? That would have been how significant last year?

Ban the rule now! If they really think giving one driver an artificial, external assistance is such a great idea, trial and perfect it in the appropriate levels of racing first - not F1!

[TIFOSI_FERRARI]

Are you serious?

sorry it's Syntax Error , I mean == Nice Guy

[neermsc]

why dont they just cut the crap!!!.......get back turbocharged V12's,ground effects and some gutsy drivers like gilles instead of paid cab drivers(maldonado)!!!......this is what we need to improve the "show"......not a zillion buttons on the steering wheel and lots of confusion.....this might deplete the interest in the sport as it makes it too complicated for an average new F1 fan to comprehend!!

[Lithium]

I doubt the rear wing will make passing a foregone conclusion, I am willing to see it in action before deciding how it will affect things.

This, especially when you can defend with the KERS.

[Hornet]

why dont they just cut the crap!!!.......get back turbocharged V12's,ground effects and some gutsy drivers like gilles instead of paid cab drivers(maldonado)!!!......this is what we need to improve the "show"......not a zillion buttons on the steering wheel and lots of confusion.....this might deplete the interest in the sport as it makes it too complicated for an average new F1 fan to comprehend!!

Exactly what I wished to see!

We need to bring back ground effect. That way, we can solve the dirty air problem and let drivers overtake on their own. No need to give artificial advantages like flapping wings.

[Tobes]

maybe so Tobes but the FIA will decide the positioning of the zone and all of the parameters of the use of the flaps so the upshot is that they decide when overtaking potential can be "enhanced", not the drivers on the track

Yeah mate, I appreciate that, but the point being that this isn't an idea just introduced by The FIA, it ia an idea concieved by the teams themselves, I don't know how much input The FIA had in the finer points though...

I don't know if it's going to be a good idea or not, but I am at least pleased that steps are being made to make a better show, I know the movable front wing really didn't make a lot of difference, will wait and see how the season pans out before having a realistic idea if the movable rear wing works, surely it's really just another version of doing what the f-duct did, i'm guessing if you stall the rear wing or level it out the result to the car and the reduction of the drag is much the same, and the f-duct clearly gave McLaren an early season advantage last year so thinking this will be much the same, add KERS into that equation, and bear in mind that the leading car may have used all his KERS during the lap, the trailing car may have the rear wing level out and have KERS, there are some good possibilities, it could work, time will tell...
I think KERS will ultimately be a good idea, once all the teams have developed it for a few years...

[TheProdigalSon]

Sorry, but that's plain wrong. BOTH cars can activate KERS. Only the trailing car can activate the rear wing.

If they changed it after race one, it will be an admission that the result of the race was adversely effected by the moronic rule. So some driver gets 7, 10, how many bonus points from this stupid rule? That would have been how significant last year?

Ban the rule now! If they really think giving one driver an artificial, external assistance is such a great idea, trial and perfect it in the appropriate levels of racing first - not F1!

Where did I say only one car could activate it? Again wait and see instead of jumping to conclusions. The attacking car would obviously be activating KERS to get within a second of the car infront which would also activate it to stay over a second ahead giving car two no time to activate it's wing in the marked area.

[Tobes]

Where did I say only one car could activate it? Again wait and see instead of jumping to conclusions. The attacking car would obviously be activating KERS to get within a second of the car infront which would also activate it to stay over a second ahead giving car two no time to activate it's wing in the marked area.

As much as I see the logic there, don't all the drivers say they can get within a second of the car in front because the slipstream works to that point, but once within a second of the car in front the aero ceases to work, the front of the car gets light and the cars become more reliant on mechanical grip resulting in understeer, hence the tyres get worn faster, the braking becomes harder and ultimately the cars become a train...
As I understand it, getting within a second of the car in front is not a tricky thing to achieve, it's the last second that is difficult bit, how often do we see two cars within a second of each other just following each other round not able to pass...? Surely even if both cars do use their KERS at the same time, the added benefit of the slipstream and the movable rear wing, should (in theory) give quite an advantage to the car trying to overtake...

[NJB13]

As much as I see the logic there, don't all the drivers say they can get within a second of the car in front because the slipstream works to that point, but once within a second of the car in front the aero ceases to work, the front of the car gets light and the cars become more reliant on mechanical grip resulting in understeer, hence the tyres get worn faster, the braking becomes harder and ultimately the cars become a train...
As I understand it, getting within a second of the car in front is not a tricky thing to achieve, it's the last second that is difficult bit, how often do we see two cars within a second of each other just following each other round not able to pass...? Surely even if both cars do use their KERS at the same time, the added benefit of the slipstream and the movable rear wing, should (in theory) give quite an advantage to the car trying to overtake...

The aero stuff you mentioned was true the last couple of years with the double and triple diffusers. The amount of turbulence these put out was phenomenal. And, lets be clear, we still had plenty of overtaking last year.

This year there will be no where near the degree of turbulence because the diffuser has been tamed (brought back to what it was supposed to be in '09). So, the car behind will get the natural tow, in a manageable amount of turbulence.

Of course the KERS will only be useful on the straight, and will be saved for attack and defend on passing, so they will definitely negate each other. It is silly to think you use KERS to anywhere else on the track.

A second on track is a huge distance.

The second is not measured on the straight - it is measured at the corner beforehand.

I don't care what the reason or result is, haveing an outside party making any teams car faster is patently ludicrous and stupid and, in my mind never acceptable. I wouldn't care how many artificial passes it creates. The idea of racing is it's between the teams/cars/drivers involved - not outside help.

This is completely untested. As I said before, if it's such a great idea, prove it somewhere before making F1 teams the guinea pigs.

And still no-one has answered me as to how a slightly faster car in front can get away from a car behind? Forget about passing...... If car F in front is 2/10's faster per lap, how can he escape car M behind????????

[Tobes]

The aero stuff you mentioned was true the last couple of years with the double and triple diffusers. The amount of turbulence these put out was phenomenal. And, lets be clear, we still had plenty of overtaking last year.

This year there will be no where near the degree of turbulence because the diffuser has been tamed (brought back to what it was supposed to be in '09). So, the car behind will get the natural tow, in a manageable amount of turbulence.

Of course the KERS will only be useful on the straight, and will be saved for attack and defend on passing, so they will definitely negate each other. It is silly to think you use KERS to anywhere else on the track.

A second on track is a huge distance.

The second is not measured on the straight - it is measured at the corner beforehand.

I don't care what the reason or result is, haveing an outside party making any teams car faster is patently ludicrous and stupid and, in my mind never acceptable. I wouldn't care how many artificial passes it creates. The idea of racing is it's between the teams/cars/drivers involved - not outside help.

This is completely untested. As I said before, if it's such a great idea, prove it somewhere before making F1 teams the guinea pigs.

And still no-one has answered me as to how a slightly faster car in front can get away from a car behind? Forget about passing...... If car F in front is 2/10's faster per lap, how can he escape car M behind????????

We had plenty of cars coming back through the field last year... The most overtaking moves last year was 40 by Sutil, 7 of those were in China, next up was Massa with 37, 11 of them in Canada, there was plenty of action mid-field, but not loads of action at the front, Massa only actually over-took another car in seven races, so for 12 races he didn't pass a single car, I don't think there was plenty of over-taking, some, but not like it used to be in the 80's, then there was plenty...

And you know that there "will be no where near the degree of turbulence because the diffuser has been tamed" because...? You been out there testing have you...?
You make that assumption, but the fact is the designers usually find ways of clawing back the downforce lost by the regs, there is no evidence to suggest the turbulence will suddenly become "manageable", just your belief...
Not necessarily, KERS was used a couple of years ago to get out of corners faster and overtake too... and by your own belief, when in the slipstream the turbulence will be more manageable for the following car so clearly the KERS will not be negated... or am I missing something...?

[Ferrari312]

As he mentioned there, we are already in a difficult situation. What they are trying to do now is to improve this difficult situation.

The whole movable rear wing idea was ridiculous to begin with. By giving a temporary advantage to the driver behind, it leaves the driver in front defenseless. Anyone can overtake. I don't think thats what we really want when we say we wants to see more overtaking. Not meaningless overtaking

Right now they really need to find a solution to that problem.


Personally I don't think this whole movable rear wing idea will stay for long. Its time to bring back bottom effect.

i personally hope Ferrari totally deny that idea, like Luca Di denying that silly 4 cylinder rule.

I think they have to lift the ban on refuelling, & let F1 stay a sport for drivers, teams rather than a sport of calculations

couldnt agree with you more.

Didn't this idea come from the Technical Working Overtaking Group (or whatever they're called) which is made up of representives from the teams, I don't think this was an FIA idea...

the name itself sound silly

but seriously, people from all team gathered and discussed the matter of how they can overtake each other easily really smells like World Wrestling Entertainment.

[Tifosi]

.......... surely it's really just another version of doing what the f-duct did, i'm guessing if you stall the rear wing or level it out the result to the car and the reduction of the drag is much the same....

yeah, but the use of the f-duct wasn't as predetermined as this. As I say, the FIA decide where on the track you use this feature on a race by race basis as far as i know, not the drivers - and therefore it becomes FIA controlled. Unless its marginal (i.e. not an easy pass) it could become the same as a blue flag!

[Greig]

maybe the drivers will just overtake elsewhere then and make it a non issue I wish we had a FIA controlled passing area in Abu Dhabi....

[Tifosi]

maybe the drivers will just overtake elsewhere then and make it a non issue I wish we had a FIA controlled passing area in Abu Dhabi....

Yeah, if they do they won't need the FIA controlled passing area - problem solved! Passing on the Abu Dhabi straight will please the rich people a bit i suppose

Edit: And Raz of course.....

[RedRebel40]

hmm with so much pirelli marbles lying off the racing line overtaking will be very hard even with the new rear wing settings.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

im reserving my judgement until i see it in action :)

[NJB13]

We had plenty of cars coming back through the field last year... The most overtaking moves last year was 40 by Sutil, 7 of those were in China, next up was Massa with 37, 11 of them in Canada, there was plenty of action mid-field, but not loads of action at the front, Massa only actually over-took another car in seven races, so for 12 races he didn't pass a single car, I don't think there was plenty of over-taking, some, but not like it used to be in the 80's, then there was plenty...

If it works don't fix it

And you know that there "will be no where near the degree of turbulence because the diffuser has been tamed" because...? You been out there testing have you...?

ouch!
Simple mate, no DD/DDD. I had a quick look and couldn't find it, but there was a very cool simulation video showing turbulence behind a DDD compared to a normal diffuser.

You make that assumption, but the fact is the designers usually find ways of clawing back the downforce lost by the regs, there is no evidence to suggest the turbulence will suddenly become "manageable", just your belief...

They may find more aero benefits, but it wont be through the turbulence creating DDD.

Not necessarily, KERS was used a couple of years ago to get out of corners faster and overtake too... and by your own belief, when in the slipstream the turbulence will be more manageable for the following car so clearly the KERS will not be negated... or am I missing something...?

The KERS will be negated, or maybe a better way of saying what I mean would be KERS will be fair, because both have it. It's up to the driver when/how to use it. It wont be some 3rd party handing it to one and not the other driver.

The whole movable rear wing is moronic because:-
1) it is a power ordained by a 3rd party - not the team/car/driver
2) it is untested - the only certainty is that no-one knows how it will really work. Test and prove it in an appropriate place - not F1!
3) If they change the rules during the season some driver will have benefited. That driver will have an extra 7+ points. Imagine if you changed last years results by 7 points.
4) still no-one has answered me how a car can get away from slightly slower following car?????

On another forum (fofassociation), a pretty respect poster (who attended the Wednesday press briefing at Valencia of Rosberg and Kubica) posted that both drivers said that the movable rear wing is awesome and much more powerful than KERS. The drivers also said that they need full concentration because the rear wing gives so much power that they will be upon the car in front in no time and if something were to happen infront the driver would not have time to react.

A last comment to those with the "I'll wait and see attitude" - I can understand that with some things, but I don't think we should be using the "suck it and see" method to implement a total unknown. Especially when so many leading and smart people have cast doubts on it and there have been so many potential problems pointed out. Test/refine it in an appropriate level of racing not F1.

[Anni]

why dont they just cut the crap!!!.......get back turbocharged V12's,ground effects and some gutsy drivers like gilles instead of paid cab drivers(maldonado)!!!......this is what we need to improve the "show"......not a zillion buttons on the steering wheel and lots of confusion.....this might deplete the interest in the sport as it makes it too complicated for an average new F1 fan to comprehend!!

Yes, this is exactly the problem of F1! Rules and technics become more complicated from year to year and are possible to understand only for very confirmed fans. I have become one of those nasty "only-sundays-race-watchers" (involuntary) over the last three years and sometimes I have not much idea what´s going on (some of the discussions here in the forum are a mystery for me) and due to that I start to loose interest in F1. If I, as a long year fan, am appalled by all those overcast new rules and FIA-innovations, how shall F1 gain new fans?
The FIA should go back to how F1 was 20 or 30 years ago and just let the most cabable driver and the best car overtake!

[stisum]

I agree 100%!

[aroutis]

Yes, this is exactly the problem of F1! Rules and technics become more complicated from year to year and are possible to understand only for very confirmed fans. I have become one of those nasty "only-sundays-race-watchers" (involuntary) over the last three years and sometimes I have not much idea what´s going on (some of the discussions here in the forum are a mystery for me) and due to that I start to loose interest in F1. If I, as a long year fan, am appalled by all those overcast new rules and FIA-innovations, how shall F1 gain new fans?
The FIA should go back to how F1 was 20 or 30 years ago and just let the most cabable driver and the best car overtake!

Quote for truth.

Could anyone tell me what the hell is useful for the industry on a stupid moveable wing?

If (I do say IF) F1 is supposed to be the showcase of motor sport , where things HAPPEN for the normal car industry, will anyone explain to me what is the usefulness of the movable wing altogether, if not just an approach (I am tempted to say "lazy") in order to make overtaking easier ?

I am all for what other people said. Return to ground effect. Give more mechanical grip and take away from aero. Keep -of course- what has been gained over the years about security, that is a given. But do NOT be so depended on aero. That's what -I- think. If F1 was to go towards that direction, I believe that we would be seeing more overtaking.

That, and of course some better design -should I say reshaping- of some DULL tracks like Abu Dhabi, and the others we all know and I doubt I need to repeat.

[zakfourie]

I wonder what Enzo would have made of this...

[zakfourie]

HOW CAN ONE BE PROUD TO BE A FORMULA ONE FAN WITH ALL THIS CRAP???

[Greig]

No idea but take the caps lock off

[Ste]

No idea but take the caps lock off

WHAT IS CAPS LOCK MATE?

[brava]

WHAT IS CAPS LOCK MATE?

[Alonsomaniac]

So....Vettel will pass Fernando on lap 3 and Fernando will pass Vettel on lap 4 and Vettel will pass Fernando on lap 5 and Fernando will pass Vettel on lap 6 and Vettel will pass Fernando on lap 7 and Fernando will pass Vettel on lap 8 and..........very interesting race!!