Stewart slams Tilke-designed tracks

[Greig]

I have no stats on the use of run-off areas either. Who would keep 'em for a start? It's not really the point we are making here I think. Our point (well certainly mine) is that the more challenging the circuit the more exciting it is for all. The higher the stakes for getting it right or wrong - the more of a challenge it is and everyone appreciates that fact.

Our "evidence" is that was have watched races when run-offs are used by drivers only because they know they can survive pretty well if they get it wrong during a race, especially when gaps between cars are greater. It's about the "cost/reward of marginal driving" to me. I remember MS spinning out when he was way in the lead once cos he stopped concentrating. He wasn't punished ultimately cos his lead had been so great so he kind of earned being let off for that mistake. Another time he wouldn't have been.

Also, I agree that run-offs don't make a difference to who is best in F1 but again that's not the point. The lack of risk (not related to safety) is the issue that detracts from the spectacle and the challenge.

Yet Monaco blows the challenge track = exciting out of the window

I certainly don't think run-off area's take away from the challenge or lessen the risk, no driver wants to be out in the run-off area.

[Tifosi]

that corner would be a carnage if the runoff was replaced by a gravel trap or even better a fence.

Firstly, it doesn't all have to be gravel - it could just be made more marginal by use of gravel. Obviously no-one would put a fence there

Secondly, if it would be carnage, why has the corner been created like that in the first place?

To Greig: Some drivers would play it safe, some wouldn't - which is the point really. "He who dares wins" rather than "He who dares gains a couple of seconds"!

[Ste]

I already gave you some, Lewis twice punished by losing places, neither at the start of the race, so your comment is simply untrue

Well 2007 Hamilton ran wide and lost places at the start of the race. 2010, he ran on the curb (not run off) and lost a place to Alonso at the start of the race. So I'm not sure which examples you're talking about

[Tifosi]

Yet Monaco blows the challenge track = exciting out of the window

I certainly don't think run-off area's take away from the challenge or lessen the risk, no driver wants to be out in the run-off area.

Again, it's no good if there's nowhere to attempt a pass .

Remember Lewis clattering the barrier but getting away with it? That's the thing that makes Monaco exciting (or annoying in that case) but with it being a narrow street circuit it's just no good for "racing" cos you can't pass.

[Greig]

Well 2007 Hamilton ran wide and lose places at the start of the race. 2010, he ran on the curb (not run off) and lost a place to Alonso at the start of the race. So I'm not sure which examples you're talking about

does not really matter does it, your comment was still untrue

[Greig]

To Greig: Some drivers would play it safe, some wouldn't - which is the point really. "He who dares wins" rather than "He who dares gains a couple of seconds"!

And they can still do that at turn 8 as it stands right now, the penalty for not nailing that corner is a lot of lost speed

[Greig]

Again, it's no good if there's nowhere to attempt a pass .

Remember Lewis clattering the barrier but getting away with it? That's the thing that makes Monaco exciting (or annoying in that case) but with it being a narrow street circuit it's just no good for "racing" cos you can't pass.

And you can't pass at Abu Dhabi will all the run-offs, so does that not tell the real story, I would think so.

[Ste]

does not really matter does it, your comment was still untrue

[Tifosi]

Run-offs aren't the only reason that some tracks are boring - this is very true

[Ste]

Run-offs don't necessarily make tracks boring, that isn't what we are suggesting.

But tracks with run-offs mean drivers can push over the limit and get away with it, whereas tracks with gravel traps actually punish drivers - Suzuka, Spa (apart from T1 and the Bus-Stop), Monza, Barcelona, Melbourne...

The problem is that it's hard to name any tracks nowadays with no large-ish run-offs but those mentioned are still primarily punishing tracks.

[Greig]

But run-off does not mean they get away with it......its a mistake and is still punished, just not as severely as being beached in gravel with adds nothing really to the sport.

[Tifosi]

Are we all still agreed that we hate Bahrain & Abu Dhabi though?

[Ste]

But run-off does not mean they get away with it......its a mistake and is still punished, just not as severely as being beached in gravel with adds nothing really to the sport.

But people don't necessarily get beached in gravel...

Remember Schumacher and Barrichello both going through the gravel at Malaysia in 2001 or Webber in 2010 at Melbourne or Hamilton at Spa 2010 or Trulli at Monza 2009. Those are just a few examples. You can still escape from gravel!

[Greig]

But people don't necessarily get beached in gravel...

Remember Schumacher and Barrichello both going through the gravel at Malaysia in 2001 or Webber in 2010 at Melbourne or Hamilton at Spa 2010 or Trulli at Monza 2009. Those are just a few examples. You can still escape from gravel!

So how is that different to run-off then? doh

[Ste]

So how is that different to run-off then? doh

Because a run off doesn't mean getting your tyres covered in gravel or getting gravel stuck in other parts of the car. It's also a lot quicker to be out of a run off than it is a gravel trap.

Common sense really. Just the same as you couldn't run 100m in a gravel trap as quickly as you could on tarmac.

[Greig]

Because a run off doesn't mean getting your tyres covered in gravel or getting gravel stuck in other parts of the car. It's also a lot quicker to be out of a run off than it is a gravel trap.

Common sense really. Just the same as you couldn't run 100m in a gravel trap as quickly as you could on tarmac.

So the run-offs are full of grip and nice and clean? LOL

Not much common sense sadly

[Ste]

So the run-offs are full of grip and nice and clean? LOL

Not much common sense sadly

No but run-off with some marbles isn't the same as gravel is it?

So yes, definitely common sense. Stop being difficult!

[Greig]

No but run-off with some marbles isn't the same as gravel is it?

So yes, definitely common sense. Stop being difficult!

Just marbles, no dust etc?

Do drivers in general actively seek to use the run-off area's? No why not? because it's not a good place to be in general.....

[Ste]

Just marbles, no dust etc?

Do drivers in general actively seek to use the run-off area's? No why not? because it's not a good place to be in general.....

You're completely missing the point though.

I'm not saying drivers want to be cruising around in the gravel traps or run offs and actively pursuing doing so. I'm saying...IF they make a mistake they shouldn't just be able to continue onto extra tarmac and re-join with minimal time loss. If it were gravel, it might be 7 or 8 seconds spent in it rather than 2 or 3, which could cost them a place, or the lead or whatever.

[Tifosi]

Just marbles, no dust etc?

Do drivers in general actively seek to use the run-off area's? No why not? because it's not a good place to be in general.....

but it's no real punishment. Back to square 1.

[Greig]

You're completely missing the point though.

I'm not saying drivers want to be cruising around in the gravel traps or run offs and actively pursuing doing so. I'm saying...IF they make a mistake they shouldn't just be able to continue onto extra tarmac and re-join with minimal time loss. If it were gravel, it might be 7 or 8 seconds spent in it rather than 2 or 3, which could cost them a place, or the lead or whatever.

Or it might be a stupid DNF, or it might be a skip across the gravel into the wall. So you think there should be no run-off just gravel and walls, sheesh I thought F1 moved on from broken limbs.

[Fiondella]

Would be nice to have a banked section designed in any forthcoming circuits or just reintroduce the section at Monza

[Ste]

Or it might be a stupid DNF, or it might be a skip across the gravel into the wall. So you think there should be no run-off just gravel and walls, sheesh I thought F1 moved on from broken limbs.

No, again that's not what I've said.

It doesn't necessarily need gravel right at the edge of the tarmac like at a lot of older circuits (A1 Ring springs to mind) although there'd be nothing wrong with that in places. There just doesn't need to be as much. It isn't about penalising every single tiny little mistake, but penalising for larger mistakes would certainly be better. For example, Bahrain should bring the minimal gravel trap at turn 1 closer to the edge of the circuit, therefore having a much smaller run off.

I don't believe me and Stu are against run-offs completely, it's just the size of them nowadays is crazy and so it's much harder to be penalised for an error.

[Sianellen]

There should be more risk and the drivers should get punished for making mistakes. Also it might not cause so much controvery when they cut corners if they ended up in the gravel for a few seconds. E.g Lewis and Kimi Spa 08. Plus walls and crashes make great entertainment and can add a good mix up to a race.


I think Tilke said a while back he wants to do tracks with inclines, which would probably improve the racing, but he can't with the budget he gets from whichever place he is doing one for.

[Ste]

There should be more risk and the drivers should get punished for making mistakes. Also it might not cause so much controvery when they cut corners if they ended up in the gravel for a few seconds. E.g Lewis and Kimi Spa 08. Plus walls and crashes make great entertainment and can add a good mix up to a race.

Absolutely agree with the bold, absolutely do not agree with the italic.

[Liam]

No, again that's not what I've said.

It doesn't necessarily need gravel right at the edge of the tarmac like at a lot of older circuits (A1 Ring springs to mind) although there'd be nothing wrong with that in places. There just doesn't need to be as much. It isn't about penalising every single tiny little mistake, but penalising for larger mistakes would certainly be better. For example, Bahrain should bring the minimal gravel trap at turn 1 closer to the edge of the circuit, therefore having a much smaller run off.

I don't believe me and Stu are against run-offs completely, it's just the size of them nowadays is crazy and so it's much harder to be penalised for an error.

kool

[Sianellen]

Absolutely agree with the bold, absolutely not not agree with the italic.

Sorry, I should have said somthing more like the walls can create interesting moments in a race. I do realise people have been hurt in the past so that was a bad thing to say and wasn't really how I meant it. My bad

[Greig]

No, again that's not what I've said.

It doesn't necessarily need gravel right at the edge of the tarmac like at a lot of older circuits (A1 Ring springs to mind) although there'd be nothing wrong with that in places. There just doesn't need to be as much. It isn't about penalising every single tiny little mistake, but penalising for larger mistakes would certainly be better. For example, Bahrain should bring the minimal gravel trap at turn 1 closer to the edge of the circuit, therefore having a much smaller run off.

I don't believe me and Stu are against run-offs completely, it's just the size of them nowadays is crazy and so it's much harder to be penalised for an error.

Ok then, still won't solve a lack of overtaking though would it you are just trying to manufacture events

[Ste]

Ok then, still won't solve a lack of overtaking though would it you are just trying to manufacture events

No of course it won't solve a lack of overtaking, it will just penalise those who make mistakes.

No different to how it used to be mate, before these Bahrain type events started.

[Greig]

No of course it won't solve a lack of overtaking, it will just penalise those who make mistakes.

No different to how it used to be mate, before these Bahrain type events started.

But mistakes are already penalised just we no longer have drivers slamming into a wall after skipping across the gravel at 180MPH.....as the GPDA tends to demand