Briatore could be that manOriginally Posted by zeus2
Ferrari > *
Briatore could be that man
Full Member
Can't believe I'm saying this but I think you're spot on there.Briatore could be that man
McLorean RIP
ERR NO. As far as i can tell it wasn't actually made compulsary by the FIA, indeed I believe that Lotus declared at the end of last season that they WOULD NOT be running it!
"Okay,...Jean is smarter than you....... can you confirm you understood that message" Bernie on the phone to Max circa 2009
Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari circa 1960
Full Member
Exactly the rules don't say you have to run it. Also with weight distribution being fixed the ballast advantage of not running it would be minimal.
Think people are blowing this way out of preportion
Moderatore
I don't think there is anything in the regulations as to where you put the ballast, other than something about weight on the front and rear wheels. But I think that regulation has been there awhile and doesn't really relate to KERS. I did a quick check of the regulations and didn't see anything specific about KERS and weight. I have a friend who is a real bookworm about the F1 rules and regs, I'll have to ask him if he knows.
Ferrari Affiliate
If the FOTA agreement binds the teams to use KERS then I can understand RBR's nervousness NOT telling the teams about their decision NOT to run it. In effect this is breach of the FOTA agreement, and albeit it's not breaking any FIA rule, it breaks the FOTA agreement.
As for the weight replacement (taking off KERS, putting balast in place), noone knows what happens there with weight distribution, it's not like they put bricks in place of the batteries for example or , which is more likely they used the lack of KERS to improve the CoG, something not possible if they had KERS on. And furthermore, I wonder, could they have kept KERS on but not connected (sort of speak) ?
I feel that in reality this is all about RBR exploiting , their KERS is just fine, we know it's not as advanced as Ferrari's / McLaren's so they have decided to go for a no run solution till it' s evolved enough. But I feel this is very dirty, since they commited with FOTA to run it , ergo all teams built their cars around it.
For me, I would not mind if for example starting Monday Ferrari broke the testing ban. If RBR plays dirty I see no reason all teams play nice.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
Salut Gilles
I can only find FOTA agreements to ditch KERS for 2010, nothing about 2011, anyone got info on such an agreement?
The testing ban is a FIA rule, not an agreement between teams, so breaking that rule would see us heavily punished, rather than just being bad sports
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
Agreed.
No one said the technical rules says that. If it was an agreement between FOTA, then yes RB can break it without consequences. But thats hardly in the spirit of the competition, is it?
I remember there were once the drivers agree not to overtake until after the first chicane in Monza or something like that. Of course all drivers kept their word.
Can a driver break it and overtake without being penalize? Of course. But you've basically broke an agreement you initially agreed too, its a shameful thing to do. If you cannot commit to something, don't make empty promises with the intention of break them later
Full Member
lol just a simple decision by Red Bull to make the cars fast! Why didn't we think about it? Kers has some weight, Kers ups the centre of gravity, Kers influences the balance, Kers needs additional cooling, Kers needs additional space, compromising aerodynamics.........
Banned
+1Briatore could be that man
bonne chance Charles
Won't KERS be more effective on the new tracks so maybe it will be an advantage to run it at these.
Massa had a podium finish in Germany 2009 (he seems to go well in Germany) with the F60 which had KERS fitted.
Forza Jules
Full Member
Can he come back yet???Can't believe I'm saying this but I think you're spot on there.
Salut Gilles
You know maybe we did think about it, maybe we even tried without it and we find it faster for us?
Just like in 2009 when we tried without it we lost a bundle of time.......
Forza Ferrari
Ferrari Affiliate
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../12/11603.html
According to this, KERS 's not compulsory. So which is it? And if it is not compulsory (ergo mandatory) , then how could they pull it out?Under new moveable bodywork regulations for next season, drivers will be able to adjust their car's rear wing from the cockpit. The change is one of a number of revisions confirmed by the FIA in the newly-published 2011 regulations, following last weeks World Motor Sport Council meeting.
The rear-wing system will be electronically governed and will only be available for activation when a driver is less than one second behind another at pre-determined points on the track. It will then be disabled once the driver brakes. The FIA hopes the system will boost overtaking opportunities during races.
Although the adjustable rear wing can be used at all times during practice sessions and qualifying, it can only be activated once a driver has completed at least two laps of the race itself. Like KERS (which will reintroduced next season after the teams agreed to suspend its use in 2010) the system wont be compulsory.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
Moderatore
I'm not sure what you're asking, but since KERS isn't required by the FIA, a team could install it or remove it as they like. It might violate the FOTA agreement, but all FOTA could do is possibly fine them or suspend them from FOTA. They suspended Williams from FOTA in 2010 when they went against the agreement not to submit entries when FOTA was fighting with Max. A pretty hollow punishment, however.
Full Member
Really, Fota can get as mad as they like, I dont think RB gives a flying ..they are the Champs, n they
are going to do whatever it takes to stay the champs...Every other team would do the same thing..including Ferrari..
Hey, its tough getting up there, n tougher staying there....Im not saying any of this is right or wrong, aint my place..
N I can moan till the cows come home, but they outsmarted just about everyone...
Id love to see what theyre up to..
Id love to see what mac is up to..
n Id love for us to be up to anything....
Full Member
FOTA could only kick Red Bull out, but that would look very good on their record for breaching an agreement within teams wouldn't it? I'm just waiting for a column from the Horse Whisperer and see what the reaction is. On Saturday and before the race Horner and the RB guys were very reluctant and nervous when asked about KERS always giving their same ol' go around. I'm also looking to find the regulations on the placement of ballast and size of the "bricks" for a car not running KERS. Ferrari needs Briatore, hopefully that's in the works.
Full Member
nah I think the reason why we are using is because Ferrari/FIAT want to use such a system in their roadcars and they want a marketing link to F1 technology to sell their cars better. Thats the only reason.You know maybe we did think about it, maybe we even tried without it and we find it faster for us?
Just like in 2009 when we tried without it we lost a bundle of time.......
Moderatore
Nothing in the technical regs about Kers that says anything about weight, not that I see.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/ru.../8699/fia.html
And nothing in the tech regs about where to put ballast if you're not using KERS.
That section in full
And welcome to the forums.ARTICLE 4: WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight:
The weight of the car must not be less than 640kg at all times during the Event.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set
of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.3 Weight of tyres :
The weight limits specified in Articles 4.1 and 4.2 will be adjusted according to any differences (rounded up to the nearest 1kg) between the total set and individual axle set weights respectively of the 2010 and 2011 dry-weather tyres.
4.4 Ballast:
Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
4.5 Adding during the race:
With the exception of compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/ru.../8711/fia.html
Salut Gilles
You are suggesting Ferrari need a marketing link for their road cars? did you see the yearly balance books? sheesh yeah we are that desperate LOL the name Ferrari is all the marketing link they will ever need, we are not Mercedes who need to hire someone for PR and marketing
Forza Ferrari
Waiting.
I don't get why we would need Briatore here, unless he's been studying engineering and knows something we don't. The problem we got is more like a lack of ideas, then having an atmosphere to get some. Mercedes and McLaren are prety much on the same boat as we are. The only reason why RBR are on top of the grid is A. Newey. Without him they would be proly in the same level as the Saubers. And besides, I personally don't want a guy with a reputation like that in a team with a rich history and respect. We are better then this.
Well, that's how i see it.
Full Member
I wonder if we can get Ross back from Merc? another lacklustre season, and Schumi would retire again, i think, so lets welcome them both with open arms. (michael as advisor to Felipe like 08 or something and Ross as i don't know, but he should be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants if this could happen). Just dont replace Stefano or Aldo or anyone that has served us well.
In Stefano Domenicali, we have a team boss who has proved to be a leader. - Luca diMontezemelo
Full Member
Ferrari was the first team in 2010 (summer if I remember right), who said they will use KERS in 2011, regardless what FOTA would decide for 2011...
They just took the decision to use KERS in 2011 and announced it, like they wanted to make it clear that Ferrari wants KERS back...
And no team except Williams makes KERS...
And Williams makes it, because cannot afford to buy and they wanted their own development...
But Ferrari wanted KERS plus wants KERS for their road cars, as much pushes for turbo engines, in order to use them in road cars too...
Anyway, it's not obligatory and other teams like Lotus don't have it, so nothing wrong with Red Bull and no breech of aggreement.
Who wants it, uses it.
Nothing more...
Full Member
Well, i dont mind, as it will help us a lot come 2013, reesgardless of what i feel about those rule changes
In Stefano Domenicali, we have a team boss who has proved to be a leader. - Luca diMontezemelo
Full Member
ThanksNothing in the technical regs about Kers that says anything about weight, not that I see.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/ru.../8699/fia.html
And nothing in the tech regs about where to put ballast if you're not using KERS.
That section in full
And welcome to the forums.
According to a James Allen article from late last year FOTA were the ones to push for a front weight distribution, so apparently no FOTA agreement. Red Bull has just come through with a different approach. Our team now has to be aggressive and respond, we certainly don't want another 2009. Here's the article:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/1...mes-to-an-end/
Full Member
I actually dont think it is an advantage for them to run without KERS.
Webber lost track position on the start due to it when Lewis came back on him.
The problem 2009 was that they weighed twice compared to now during early season but
the second half McL had the best car. Since then it had been refined further and the minimum weight
raised so the lower center of weight would not be the same benefit as then.
I am sure they will run it most of the races and when they say they wont they are only putting
thoughts in other teams minds to make them throw money and efforts in the wrong directions.
Maybe KERS is about neutral in some circuits and a huge advantage at others.
Lewis did not use his KERS in qualy(malfunction) either but he had it on the car.
Kimi was also the best point taker in the field when F for 6-7 races before
the lack of updates hampered the car too much and after they had gained knowledge about the cars behaviour after the poor start.
If we are behind the RBs it is not due to KERS.
I think the cold weather this weak hampered our performance combined with the tracklayout.
Slow speed corners and short straights.
I am more worried about Massa form than Ferraris.
Full Member
Thanks
According to a James Allen article from late last year FOTA were the ones to push for a front weight distribution, so apparently no FOTA agreement. Red Bull has just come through with a different approach. Our team now has to be aggressive and respond, we certainly don't want another 2009. Here's the article:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/1...mes-to-an-end/
The weight distribution rule did go through - I mentioned it earlier in this thread - its
4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively
They also increased the car minimum weight so that you would have plenty of ballast with or without KERS.
Between these 2 rules it should mean running without KERS offers very little advantage except for the fact you would be able to make the rear end of the car tighter because of the space you can free up
Full Member
Get over this 09 season F150 is much better
Full Member
...i really thought that it was in the rules that every team has to use KERS!!!! (new teams given some time to get it)
Clearly it wasnt.
Had Ferrari something to do with this. I remember Scuderia took a different aproach to KERS been mandatory?? They wanted to bring their own design or something.
Anyways, RB out played everyone. But at the same time Ferrari failed to bring car which is fast with KERS. Renault with KERS was faster, and Macca. Even without Vettel Ferrari would have been left to 3rd.
Banned
The lack of R-less Red Bull KE_S actually makes their dominance even more spectacular.
As a strategy not installing KERS for a top team sucks. Irrespective they have to carry the weight of KERS (cars min weight this year was increased by the weight of KERS). Red Bull don't run KERS because it causes them problems and, they know they are fast enough without it. If they could get it to work reliably they'd install and use it.
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