Ferrari seeks solutions after Melbourne

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

+1

The rule is no moveable aero. It's the FIA test that is flawed.

There is another rule that says you cannot start the race until the lights go out. The FIA have sensors to detect if a car moves before that moment. So, if a way is found to start the race several seconds early, without triggering the sensors, would that be legal? Of course not, because everyone can see it happen. So why then, if everyone can see the wings dragging on the floor is something not been done in this instance?

This is not a "double diffuser" grey area in the regulations. This is straight up FIA incompetence.

agree with u there!

[CF22]

any rules on flexi diffusers?

or a front diffuser for added front downforce.

Please excuse my complete and utter lack of f1 technical knowledge, and if what i'm saying is tupid, please point it out.

Exactly, why not flex the diffuser, come up with a double deck transforming diffuser, put a diffuser in Alonso's head or something? I'm sure there's tons of things that could even give us a couple seconds over RB while exploring grey areas and just testing many different components on the wind tunnel. Why not rent out a NASA wind tunnel for a weekend and while we're at it, take some of their engineers? If there's a team with enough resources and enough manpower to be ahead of the rest is Ferrari and we're not using the power.

BTW, I'm not very technical either, those are just examples.

[Grillo]

I wish it was Red Bull playing catch up this season. Would they be able to achieve a come back like Ferrari last year? No title, I know. Sitll great.

[Hermann]

I was wondering about something. Vettel complained about the rear wing, calling it dangerous and what not, maybe there is another reason for him not liking it?

Could it be possible that the famous front wing creates such an amount of downforce in free air that you become 'uncatchable', but when coming out of the slipstream of another car, can move in a way that makes you lose it?

So if the new rear wings makes overtaking easier, and there is a danger that Vettel could be overtaken too (they didn't know if that could happen in the race or not), it would become dangerous for him more than for other cars to try and get the position back?

I thought about that after seing a video from 2010: Vettel crashing into Button. I'm sure it was discussed before, but when i watched it again, i realized the front wing making a real strange movement in the moment Vettel got out of the slipstream. Like waving up and down and throwing Vettel's car totally out of balance.

If that is true, the wing is a two- edged sword. Or maybe i'm totally wrong here, since i know next to nothing about aerodynamics. Maybe someone here could tell.




Watch the slow motion of the moment, at 0:16.. The wing is moving like a ship on heavy sea. Watch it several times and you almost get seasick, if you are not immune to it.

[Ferrari fan 52]

Are we sure is the nose cone or the wing flexes? If you look at the videos posted (hundreds with the fexing issue), to me is more like suspension behaviour. Even Vettel said last year "we have a great suspension" at the beginning. I might be vrong.

[Hornet]

Are we sure is the nose cone or the wing flexes? If you look at the videos posted (hundreds with the fexing issue), to me is more like suspension behaviour. Even Vettel said last year "we have a great suspension" at the beginning. I might be vrong.

You just need to observe the wing and the nose cone in relative to the body of the car. You will see the car is moving in relative to the body.

Suspension movement will move the entire car, not just the wing so if that was the case, the wing and nose cone should not be moving in relative to the body part.

[Grillo]

Suspension movement will move the entire car, not just the wing so if that was the case, the wing and nose cone should not be moving in relative to the body part.

Very good explanation.

I was wondering about something. Vettel complained about the rear wing, calling it dangerous and what not, maybe there is another reason for him not liking it?

I think it had more to do with Vettel moving the steering wheel too much or too violently.

Loot at 1:05 that Vettel's car is pointing towards the outside of the track and suddenly he tries to correct with the steering and lose the rear. Their car might be a bit more sensitive moving away from slipstream but every driver is aware of what he's driving.

Funny Vettel moving his right arm towards Button just before he crashes into the McLaren.

[red5]

Red Bull to use KERS in Malaysia

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/re...0-43990-1.html

Red Bull Racing a boudé le KERS en Australie. Un luxe que peut se permettre une écurie certaine du potentiel de sa monoplace, convaincue qu'une innovation technique qui peut – sur le papier – faire gagner une demi-seconde au tour n'est pas une panacée.

Nous ne l’avons pas utilisé de tout le week-end. Il ne semblait pas que nous en ayons besoin. Nous avons roulé avec le Vendredi mais nous pensions qu’il nous faisait courir un risque » a avoué le directeur de Red Bull Racing, Christian Horner, avant la course, « Nous avons pris la décision de ne pas l’utiliser. C’est une technologie complexe et notre designer en chef étant Adrian, il ne ferait aucun compromis sur l’aérodynamique de la voiture. »

La force de l'écurie phare du championnat est de pouvoir jongler avec la nouvelle donne technique et d'adapter sa monoplace aux conditions de piste. A Sepang, où deux immenses lignes droites appellent aux dépassements et à la défense de sa position en course, Red Bull Racing n'envisage pas de faire l'économie du KERS. « Nous utiliserons le KERS en Malaisie » a confirmé Horner au Guardian, « A Melbourne, c'était une décision faite à la marge. En Malaisie, il y a un long bout droit avant le premier virage et nous voulons intégrer le KERS dans l'auto. »

En Australie, la courte ligne droite des stands n'était pas le pré carré du KERS. L'histoire a donné raison à Red Bull Racing. Il y a fort à parier que l'écurie double championne du monde en titre fera preuve de la même force d'adaptation sur des circuits tortueux tel que celui de Monaco.
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Maybe good news,depending on how their car will behave in the mix of air heat + engine heat + KERS' heat

[Hermann]

And McLaren seems to be quite confident they can make their car even faster and catch up with RB.


"Lewis Hamilton also praised the drivability of the updated MP4-26, which was running a new diffuser made of titanium because the team did not have enough time to manufacture it from carbon fibre. At the next round in Malaysia a significantly lighter diffuser in carbon and exotic Pyrosic heat shielding will be ready and Hamilton is confident the car can only get quicker."

http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php...89292&start=0&

Pyrosic? I think i heard something about that, wasn't it forbidden by FIA?

Whatever, Ferrari better come up with something really good, or they will prove Flavio right.

[ferrari4life]

What are our exhausts like compared to McLaren and the Bulls... Newey is in the news stating that McLaren have caught up with them by using their exhauts..?

[Sha1]

This is what happens when over half of FIA employees get their jobs through connections. It seems like very few of them even known what they're doing and there are more flaws in the rulebook than need be. Charlie Whiting doesn't even have the educational qualifications to be in the position that he's in.

[Nova]

What are our exhausts like compared to McLaren and the Bulls... Newey is in the news stating that McLaren have caught up with them by using their exhauts..?

Thats a very good question..I dont know the answer to that...plus there has been no news about Ferrari and if they are
going to change anything, try something new, improve anything etc...Im sure they are going to try something????? Arent they?
Myself? I hope to see a transformed Ferrari fighting at the front in Malaysia..Please....

[Hornet]

Thats a very good question..I dont know the answer to that...plus there has been no news about Ferrari and if they are
going to change anything, try something new, improve anything etc...Im sure they are going to try something????? Arent they?
Myself? I hope to see a transformed Ferrari fighting at the front in Malaysia..Please....

Last I heard, there won't be any new parts till the race in Europe.
Maybe they could tweak the setup to be more aggressive on the tires or something.

[NJB13]

Pyrosic? I think i heard something about that, wasn't it forbidden by FIA?

It's forbidden for exhaust parts.

Here's a demo video of the stuff

[scuderiafan]

What are our exhausts like compared to McLaren and the Bulls... Newey is in the news stating that McLaren have caught up with them by using their exhauts..?

Our exhausts are the same as the bulls, but we were working on them since before RedBull put them on their car, so nobody is copying nobody in this, apart from McLaren who have decided to go the same way.

I think our rear is fine, but the front needs working on.

[ferrari4life]

Last I heard, there won't be any new parts till the race in Europe.
Maybe they could tweak the setup to be more aggressive on the tires or something.

With the lack of in season testing.. i would hope they would try something new seeing that we were so far behind the bulls in Q..

Even with the KERS and the rear wing change we cannot pass faster cars during the race..

If they are not then either hope for a wet race or some car breakdowns otherwise fear that we will fall further behind Alonso's magic average of points per race..

[Rob]

What are our exhausts like compared to McLaren and the Bulls... Newey is in the news stating that McLaren have caught up with them by using their exhauts..?

ours to run along the floor flat to the difusser, just like RBRs.

[Rob]

+1

The rule is no moveable aero. It's the FIA test that is flawed.

There is another rule that says you cannot start the race until the lights go out. The FIA have sensors to detect if a car moves before that moment. So, if a way is found to start the race several seconds early, without triggering the sensors, would that be legal? Of course not, because everyone can see it happen. So why then, if everyone can see the wings dragging on the floor is something not been done in this instance?

This is not a "double diffuser" grey area in the regulations. This is straight up FIA incompetence.

FIA load tests are flawed big time. They say no moveable aero part, right, well get rid of the tests and just ban the flexi parts. Straight up, no fuss or messing around with loop holes or revised tests. Be the common sense of doing it.

[Salvador Dali]

FIA load tests are flawed big time. They say no moveable aero part, right, well get rid of the tests and just ban the flexi parts. Straight up, no fuss or messing around with loop holes or revised tests. Be the common sense of doing it.

Well it is not so simple even if it sounds simple. If you want a rule to ban something than you need to specify what and how. Well we all know what, the problem is how. What we have now worked "well" till RBR came up with a new way of thinking to overcome the limitation of the rule and ofc the test. All wings flex, the rules just state by how much and here is the problem, since they passed that test.

But IMHO the problem is not RBR's flexy wing, nor the FIA's incompetence but rather our (Ferrari's) inability to come up with a similar design. A shame really since this seems like our biggest weak spot on the car atm...

... but ofc I may be way of

[luicchi]

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3462/flexiwing.png

look at this image you can see that our car looks like having a wood board as front wing and RB as a huge flexible fronte wing.

[Grillo]

I don't know whether it's the nose, the wing or the whole thing what flexes but I want Ferrari to have one, or at least to sort front down force problems.

¡¡¡¡COME ON!!!

[Rob]

Well it is not so simple even if it sounds simple. If you want a rule to ban something than you need to specify what and how. Well we all know what, the problem is how. What we have now worked "well" till RBR came up with a new way of thinking to overcome the limitation of the rule and ofc the test. All wings flex, the rules just state by how much and here is the problem, since they passed that test.

But IMHO the problem is not RBR's flexy wing, nor the FIA's incompetence but rather our (Ferrari's) inability to come up with a similar design. A shame really since this seems like our biggest weak spot on the car atm...

... but ofc I may be way of

i know that all wings flex abit and are allowed to have bit of deflection in rules. All im saying is, cut out the **** and just ban it completely. Have all wings alot more rigid, or just change the aero rules and allow the front wing to back to how it was few years ago lower to the ground.

Iam rather surprised we didnt come out of the stables with our flexi wing. Think we playing very conservative and by the "spirit" of the rules and RBR Mclaren and now the Silver Skips have knocked that "spirit" of the rules out of the park.

[Salvador Dali]

I agree with you 100%! The problem that I see is that no one except RBR & now McLaren don't know how they do that. Until FIA or all other teams know how to do that no one can make a rule that will ban that kind of wing / nose / suspension ect since you have to specify what is wrong and by how much.

And you can forget FIA scrapping that rule since too much flexing can be a dangerus thing.

Last year we (Ferrari fans) were making fun of McLaren when they went on record several times that they don't know how can RBR's and to a lesser extent Ferrari's wing flex so much. It seems they know now and we don't.

I must admit that I'm disappointed that we didn't do our home work over the winter to come up with something even better than last year since I was shure that the last update would have a front wing that is a closer match to the one that RBR have.

Right now we have to put our heads down and come up with an answer to their wing! We certainly have the people and resources to do just that!

Edit: Your idea to have a new/old rule to allow wings to run closer to the ground would to some extent level the playing field and the cars would look better IMHO - so yes I like your idea very much!!!

[Hermann]

Very good explanation.


I think it had more to do with Vettel moving the steering wheel too much or too violently.

Loot at 1:05 that Vettel's car is pointing towards the outside of the track and suddenly he tries to correct with the steering and lose the rear. Their car might be a bit more sensitive moving away from slipstream but every driver is aware of what he's driving.

Funny Vettel moving his right arm towards Button just before he crashes into the McLaren.

According to this article, i might be right here though. In the comments people also say it might have been the 'special' behaviour if the wing that made Vettel lose control, and it looks the same to me.

http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2011/04...ront-wing.html

When it first became apparent in 2010 that Red Bull were using aeroelasticity to generate extra front-wing downforce, a number of eagle-eyed observers pointed out that the Milton Keynes based team had established a relationship with MSC Software in 2009, precisely to develop simulation software capable of representing this type of Fluid-Structure Interaction:

Using MSC's latest MD (multi-discipline) software versions of Nastran and Adams, we already combine mechanism and deformable finite element simulations. We also increasingly use aerodynamic output directly from CFD analysis to generate more accurate loads for the structural simulations. There are rule restrictions to limit this, but multi-physics coupling of these effects allows us to legally enhance the performance of deformable components, for example to optimise down-force and drag characteristics for flexible wing components.

[Grillo]

According to this article, i might be right here though. In the comments people also say it might have been the 'special' behaviour if the wing that made Vettel lose control, and it looks the same to me.

I don't deny that, I just think you have to put the blame on Vettel. He crashed into Webber with no apparently reason. You need a very cool head when you try to pass an F1 car, something Vettel has not yet proved he has got with him.